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Without legal advice and representation, domestic violence victims, migrant domestic workers and trafficked victims remain reliant on misinformation from their abusers about their legal rights and status and are trapped and dependent upon violent relationships, placing their lives at risk. The amendments together would ensure that those who have experienced violence are able to access legal aid for immigration advice and representation.
Baroness Gale: My Lords, I speak in support of the amendments and thank my noble friend Lady Gould for speaking to this group in such a comprehensive
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Amendments 62 to 67 work together to extend the availability of legal aid for immigration matters. The Government have proposed that legal aid will be available to a person seeking indefinite leave to remain after suffering domestic abuse by their partner. Furthermore, their partner must be present and settled in the United Kingdom. My noble friend Lady Gould's amendments would extend that to someone who is seeking any form of leave to remain, and their partner would not necessarily need to be present and settled in the United Kingdom. So they only fractionally extend the coverage to ensure that all women who suffer domestic abuse and try to escape will be given the protection they need. A failure to accept the amendments would mean that some women might feel trapped in an abusive relationship, wanting to escape from it but knowing that, because they slip through the Ministry of Justice's legislative cracks, they would not get the help that they would need.
Amendments 69A and 70A would extend legal aid to immigration matters relating to entering or remaining in the country for three classes of persons: those under 18; those who have been subjected to gender-based violence; and those unable to represent themselves due to a physiological or psychological condition. Amendments 69B and 70B would extend legal aid to immigration matters relating to entering or remaining in the country for those under 18.
We support all the amendments. I am pleased that my party's position is that immigration matters should remain in the scope of legal aid to the same extent that they are now. That forms part of our overall commitment to keeping social welfare legal aid fully in scope by re- tendering criminal legal aid contracts in line with our 22 March 2010 paper, Restructuring the Delivery of Criminal Defence Services. Unamended, the Government's approach means that significant cracks will form in the provision of immigration law legal aid. Many claimants with very good cases will fail to exert their rights legitimately because of the current proposals' failures. My noble friend Lady Gould's package of amendments clearly demonstrates one of these cracks.
A failure to accept the amendments might mean that people could be forced into accepting domestic abuse for fear of losing their children, their friends and the life they live in the United Kingdom. It could be regarded as a charter for abusers because of the difficulties that women will face in removing themselves from an abusive relationship. It will lead to chaos in the immigration system. Legal aid advice and representation oil the system, allowing interactions to occur professional to professional. Our system, which some would regard as creaking under the weight of poor decision-making and a high volume of cases, cannot afford this kind of radical deprofessionalisation.
I have one final, quite specific question for the Minister. Will Clause 9 funding be available for vulnerable children in complex immigration cases? The Government's long-standing position is that Article 6 of the European
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I urge the Minister to listen to what has been said tonight. Earlier, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, proved to be in a listening mood when he replied to the debate on domestic violence and child abuse. The aim of this amendment is perhaps of a similar nature in that it deals with women suffering from domestic abuse. Therefore, I urge the Minister to continue in the vein of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, this afternoon when he said that he was prepared to listen-and indeed it seemed to me from his responses that he was listening. I hope that the Minister will continue to listen tonight. Noble Lords who have put their names to this group of amendments should be confident that if the Minister does not listen, we would support the amendments if they were brought forward at a future date, and we would take our own position on the provision of immigration law legal aid.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould of Potternewton, for introducing the amendments, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, who encouraged me to listen. I hope to indicate later that in some respects we have already been listening.
Amendments 62 to 67 propose to make an amendment to paragraph 25 of Part 1 of Schedule 1. This paragraph provides for those applying for indefinite leave to remain on the grounds that they have limited leave to enter or remain as a partner of another individual present and settled in the United Kingdom and that the relationship has broken down permanently as a result of abuse. Such matters are to be within the scope of legal aid. The arguments regarding partnerships which have broken up and the power relationship that can result were very well made.
Amendment 62 seeks to extend the scope of legal aid to those applying for "leave to remain" as opposed to "indefinite leave to remain". Amendment 65 seeks to remove the need for a person's partner to be present and settled in the United Kingdom, and Amendments 66 and 67 are consequential amendments, removing the definitions of "indefinite leave to remain" and "present and settled in the United Kingdom". We do not believe that these amendments are necessary. The provision as currently worded in the Bill is directly linked to Rule 289A of the Immigration Rules, which deals with applications for indefinite leave to remain by victims of domestic violence on a limited spousal visa. This is deliberate: other than via the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006, the appropriate route for someone to apply would be through the Immigration Rules. Where the person's partner has only a temporary form of residence, it is not clear that they intend, or indeed whether they would have a right, to reside more permanently in the country. As such, we do not believe that these cases require funding.
Amendments 63 and 64 relate to partners of EEA nationals, known as third-country nationals, and are similar to an amendment raised in the House of
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The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 make provision for family members to remain in the United Kingdom; that is that their right to reside can continue if they cease to be a family member of an EEA national because their marriage or civil partnership, on the basis of which they are a family member of an EEA national, breaks down as a result of domestic violence. The application is different for those people who apply for indefinite leave to remain under the domestic violence provisions in the Immigration Rules, where the rules that apply are different.
Nevertheless, as has been pointed out, and as my honourable friend, Mr Djanogly, has said, we will look further at this point. I indicated earlier that we believe that some of the initial concerns raised are covered and we do not believe that the amendments are necessary. However, it is only reasonable, in the light of what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, that we ensure that we have addressed the points which she made in that regard.
Amendments 69A and 70A deal with making legal aid available to certain categories of vulnerable persons for immigration matters. I think there are another two amendments in this group which have not been moved but I shall try to deal with them. Part of Amendment 70A -that which seeks to cover those persons who have suffered domestic violence at the hands of spouses or partners-is already covered by the Bill at paragraph 25 of Part 1 of Schedule 1, where the application for indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom meets the requirements of that paragraph. We decided that, on reflection, the issues faced by those facing domestic violence were such that special provision should be made for them. Without legal aid, there is a real risk that such people will remain trapped in an abusive relationship for fear of jeopardising their immigration status. Furthermore, they have only a limited window in which to submit their immigration application when they leave their partners and after that period their access to public funds ceases. However, these factors do not apply to other categories of vulnerable persons that have been suggested in the amendments.
As we have indicated on numerous occasions in these debates, we believe that we should target legal aid on those who need it most. In general, we want to prioritise asylum cases, which can be about life and death, over immigration cases. I do not deny for a moment the importance of such cases to the individuals concerned, but they do not raise the same issues.
Children will not normally be applicants in asylum and immigration cases, as they are usually considered as part of their parents' application. Child applicants
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Baroness Gould of Potternewton: I thank the Minister for his reply. In some ways, I am partially encouraged by the reply but I also find it extremely complex. I need to go away and read it very carefully and then I shall be able to answer whether I am satisfied or not. In the light of that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, these amendments, supported by the Immigration Law Practitioners' Association, which assisted in their drafting, were tabled to draw attention to and to remedy the inconsistency of the Government in claiming to protect legal aid for people whose liberty is at stake, while denying those who are liable to detention, pending their removal or deportation, the means to assert their claim before the tribunal constituted for that purpose.
Paragraphs 22 to 24 of Schedule 1 allow a person who is detained under the Immigration Act to obtain legal aid to challenge their detention but not to contest the reasons for the refusal of their application for leave to remain. Over the past several years, more than one-quarter of appeals against refusal have been granted; the decision-making process is obviously seriously flawed. If the Government want to reduce spending on legal aid for immigration appeals they should concentrate on improving the quality of the UK Border Agency's decisions. Until now, those with genuine claims have had a reasonable chance of asserting their rights because they have been able to get legal aid. However, when
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Among the many reasons given by respondents who were against the proposal to deprive applicants of legal aid in all immigration proceedings were the complexity of immigration legislation, the inequality of arms between the state and the individual applicant, the fact that many applicants would have little if any understanding of English law and the fact that English might not be their first language. The Government summarily dismissed all the respondents' arguments in three short paragraphs. They said that individuals in immigration cases should be capable of dealing with their immigration application and should not require a lawyer. If it is so easy to decide how to pursue immigration applications, why have Citizens Advice staff been instructed not to give advice on them but to take down the facts and send them to a solicitor?
The Immigration Law Practitioners' Association gives four examples of cases where the claimant would have been removed if the courts had not intervened. Two of the cases went all the way to the House of Lords. I will not detain the Committee by reading the details of the cases in full, but I invite the Minister to agree that in the first case-I assume that he received the note from ILPA-the trial judge found that the appellant, a Dutch national of Somali origin, would have been deported to Somalia or held in detention indefinitely under the Immigration Act but for the efforts of his solicitor.
In the second case, the High Court ordered the release of an individual who had been detained unlawfully for 11 months under a secret Home Office policy when there was no realistic prospect of deporting him. In the third case, the House of Lords ruled that it would rarely be proportionate to remove a person if there was a close bond with his or her spouse, who could not be expected to follow them to their country of origin, or if the effect of the removal order would be to sever a genuine and subsisting relationship between the person and their child. In the final example, the appellant was a woman from Zimbabwe who was married to a British citizen, by whom she had a child. The Home Office had decreed that she had to return to Zimbabwe and make an application to come here as a spouse.
In these four cases and many others, it would have been extremely unlikely-I dare say impossible for the two people whose cases went to the House of Lords-for the two appellants to have succeeded without legal aid. Again, I invite my noble friend to agree with that proposition. Will he also acknowledge that cases where someone is liable to detention with a view to their removal or deportation and passes the merits threshold for legal aid are among the most serious that come before the courts? If so, it cannot be denied that among them are instances of the most egregious errors by the state, extending to the wrongful removal of British citizens who have the right of abode in the UK.
The importance of the issues at stake, such as the absence of any alternative source of funding or of any other means of resolving claims that the individual
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The Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council, in its devastating response to the consultation on the Government's legal aid proposals, drawing on the previous study by the Legal Services Commission, found:
The council quotes evidence of the glaring disparity in the social security and child support tribunal between the success rates of litigants who are represented and unrepresented. They are 55 per cent and 28 per cent respectively. Although, unfortunately, there are no equivalent statistics for the immigration tribunal, it concludes that throughout the administrative justice system:
"If the proposals are pursued then the Government lays itself wide open to allegations that the withdrawal of legal aid is designed both to reduce the number of appeals ... in general, even where they would probably be successful".
Detainees are uniquely and materially disadvantaged in presenting their own cases, being isolated and incapable of gathering evidence, such as witness statements, and having no funds to pay for telephone charges, registered post or the copying of documents. The AJTC goes on to conclude:
Finally, I turn to the distinction made between detention and the underlying immigration matter. Hardly any of the respondents to the consultation challenged the decision to retain legal aid in relation to detention, but some experts, notably ILPA, disputed the Government's assertion that legal aid providers would be able to distinguish between advice on detention and on the underlying reasons for the detention. It said:
The merits of the appeal are directly relevant to the lawfulness of immigration detention. If the appeal is ultimately likely to be successful, the grounds for detention, which are to effect removal, must be commensurately weaker. If the detention is at the earlier stage where the person's entitlement to enter the UK is being investigated, the same principle applies. The solicitor who advises him on the lawfulness of his detention at that point would have to look into the merits of the application for leave to enter because that would be the only practical reason for challenging his detention.
I really hope the Government will think again about denying legal aid to immigration detainees and instead address the abysmal standards of decision-making by the UKBA, thus reducing the wholesale cost of the detention system and the administrative and legal costs of tribunals, and saving far more than they will by depriving meritorious immigrants of access to justice. I beg to move.
Lord Bach: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has made a very powerful case for the amendment that he has so ably moved. We support it from the opposition Front Bench, very much for the reason that he was arguing in the latter part of his speech: the complete mismatch between being allowed to get legal aid to get advice on detention but not being able to get any advice as to the underlying reasons why an individual is detained.
The Government are quite right to have recognised that legal aid is crucial when an individual's liberty is at stake, and we see that principle in existence here in their preparedness to allow someone who is in detention to get legal advice to challenge that detention. However, how on earth can they challenge that detention-and this is the point the noble Lord was making-without also getting legal advice as to the underlying cause of that detention? It does not look as though this could work properly in practice. The Government are trying to hold fast to two principles: that an individual's liberty demands legal aid advice; but, when that matter is looked into, the reason behind their loss of liberty
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To make the point absolutely clearly-and this is the point that ILPA seems to have made-challenging immigration detention is inextricably linked to challenging the immigration decision that forms the justification for detention. If the Government want to help those detained wrongly-presumably they do; no one wants to have people detained wrongly-it is pretty self-evident that they should deal with the underlying problems. A failure to do so will simply mean a return to detention-a complete waste, frankly, of public money.
Although I have been brief, we on this side believe that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and the others who signed the amendment have a very good point. I would like the Minister to explain to the Committee how these provisions can actually work in practice. It looks as though there is a serious mismatch between what they will and will not allow legal aid for in this field.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Avebury for moving his amendment, which relates to issues of immigration and detention. Amendments 68 and 70 would bring into scope of legal aid several legal services in relation to rights to enter and remain in the United Kingdom for anyone who is liable to be detained under the immigration powers.
As a preliminary to his arguments my noble friend suggested that, if the Government wished to save money, we should tackle the UKBA's decision-making. The UKBA already has a wide-ranging improvement programme under way to continue to improve the quality of its decision-making in asylum and entry claims and in points-based systems, although I would be the first to acknowledge that in any programme like that there is always scope for improvement.
The amendment would cover those who have been refused leave to enter or remain. It would also, however, cover persons "liable to detention" pending examination while the decision to grant leave to enter is taken, or while on temporary admission pending deportation under Schedule 3 or under the auto-deport provisions in the UK Borders Act-that is where the words "liable to be detained" appear-and where removal action has been taken against them as overstayers.
As has been said in relation to a number of issues, not least earlier today in relation to immigration issues, tough decisions have to be taken and choices made about the scope of legal aid. Nevertheless, we are being clear that where issues of liberty are at stake, legal aid should be available, subject to the means and merits tests. That is why this Bill provides that when someone is detained under the immigration powers to detain, as referred to in paragraph 22 of Part 1 of Schedule 1, legal aid will still be available to challenge their detention. The amendment however would go well beyond that principle.
Both my noble friend Lord Avebury and the noble Lord, Lord Bach, asked how one might distinguish between immigration detention and the underlying reasons. Under the current legal aid scheme, solicitors have to deal with mixed cases where some elements of the case are in scope and some are out of scope. That is dealt with through guidance, and further guidance will be made available setting out what solicitors can and cannot do under legal aid.
It is absolutely clear that it will be necessary for them to understand the immigration background of their client in detention. Legal aid will not cover advice on an appeal on the matter of the substance of the immigration decision but it does not preclude taking action to secure a client's liberty. My noble friend mentioned a case that had been raised by ILPA involving someone who might be deported to Somalia. There had been difficulties in removing the person to Somalia and it was expected that that person could be detained for some considerable time. Clearly, in such a situation it would be possible to challenge detention and legal aid would remain if the UKBA had no realistic prospect of removal within a reasonable period of time. As I have indicated, the amendment takes us well beyond the situation of liberty. The phrase in the amendment, "liable to detention", covers those who are not detained.
Amendments 68 and 70 would bring back into scope legal aid in relation to rights to enter and remain for any immigration case where a negative decision has been made, or for anyone "liable to detention" pending examination of our decision to grant leave to enter that is taken while on temporary admission pending deportation and when removal action is taken against overstayers, as opposed to being focused on those cases where the individual's liberty is at stake. Were the amendment to be passed, it would have a significant impact. Our proposals regarding immigration will bring an estimated £20 million saving. We do not believe-I have indicated that it is not easy and that it is tough-that that is appropriate in these circumstances.
Immigration cases are generally about whether the facts of a particular case meet the Immigration Rules and are generally heard in tribunals, which are designed to allow people to represent themselves. It is important that, as well as indicating that issues affecting the liberty of the individual are within scope, the Bill makes legal aid available too to asylum seekers and those seeking protection for human rights' reasons. It also makes legal aid available in relation to matters concerning accommodation for asylum seekers and in immigration cases, as I have said, where the person's liberty is at stake.
There are of course other categories where legal aid will be available. Immigration matters relating to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission and the domestic violence immigration rule will remain in scope as well as advocacy in the Upper Tribunal in such cases. Immigration judicial reviews are in scope, subject to some exceptions, and it is intended to focus legal aid on those who need it; that is, those seeking
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It has been a question of trying to prioritise and to focus help on those who need it most in the most serious cases. It is these cases where we believe that legal aid representation is justified. I anticipate that that will not satisfy my noble friend but I hope that he will understand that, in trying to address these issues, we have sought to give priority in cases such as asylum and where the liberty of the individual is at stake. In doing so, I hope he agrees that these are appropriate judgments. The consequence has been that it has not been possible to include within scope a much wider range of immigration cases. I invite my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Avebury: In one respect, I can agree entirely with my noble and learned friend and that is that I am wholly dissatisfied with his reply, as he expected. If we are helping those who need help most, who could possibly be higher on the list than somebody who has been detained and is therefore incapable of conducting his case effectively? As I said-my noble and learned friend did not address this point-how does he get in touch with witnesses and how does he get the money for the telephone calls, for duplicating of papers and for all the rest of the preparatory work that needs to be done in formulating a proper appeal?
Nor did my noble and learned friend address my point that there were likely to be more cases where a person was unjustifiably refused if he did not have representation-and that comes from the figures. We know that in other types of case there is a much higher percentage of success where the appellant is represented than in cases where he conducts the case himself. The same figures would be seen if it was possible to distinguish between the two categories in immigration cases. Therefore, it follows that if people do not have representation when they are in detention, more of them will unlawfully be sent back to the countries of their origin. I think that my noble and learned friend missed the point that I made in relation to the case of the Dutch citizen of Somali origin who was threatened with deportation but was able to get representation. The solicitor showed that it would have been unlawful to deport him because he was not a Somali citizen but a Dutch citizen of Somali origin. If he had been able to appeal only against his detention, it would have to be a two-stage process. Would my noble and learned friend not agree that he would first have to obtain his liberty and then get a solicitor to point out to the tribunal that he was not liable to deportation because the UKBA had falsely assumed he was a Somali citizen?
I am most grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for the amendments. As he said, there is a complete mismatch between the facts that a person can obtain legal aid for his detention but not for the underlying reasons for the detention in the first place. I see that we will have to return to this subject on Report and I shall have to discuss what we do about it with ILPA and our other advisers. For the time being, I have no alternative but to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
"(1A) Civil legal services provided to an individual for a matter arising out of any rule laid down under section 1(4) of the Immigration Act 1971 making provision for family members to enter or remain in the United Kingdom as the family member of a refugee or beneficiary of humanitarian protection."
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I must apologise to my noble and learned friend for failing to address this issue when it was listed at an earlier stage. Amendment 69 is also supported by the Immigration Law Practitioners' Association, which does such tremendous work in this very difficult field and not for any great return. It is to be commended.
Amendment 69 would retain legal aid for applications and appeals by family members of refugees and family members of those who are found to be at risk of serious harm such as torture but are not granted humanitarian protection for a refugee convention reason. The legal aid would be for applications and appeals for those reunited with a refugee recognised in the United Kingdom. When a person is recognised as a refugee or granted humanitarian protection, they are entitled under the Immigration Rules to apply to have certain family members, spouses, partners and minor children to join them. Such persons may themselves be living in danger in the country of origin, may be refugees themselves or may be living in a precarious situation in a third country. There are considerable parallels with asylum cases, which remain within scope. Without this special provision in the rules, refugees would have to wait until they were settled to have their families join them and would have to fulfil additional criteria.
These cases concern family reunion for persons whose applications for international protection have been found to be well founded and to whom the United Kingdom's protection has been extended. The UNHCR stated in a report published in June 2010:
"Family reunification plays a significant role in meeting the long-term needs of resettled refugees ... The family is often the strongest and most effective emotional, social and economic support network for a refugee making the difficult adjustment to a new culture and social framework".
When in another place my right honourable friend Simon Hughes urged the Government to bring refugee family reunion back into scope for legal aid in this Bill, the Minister with responsibility for legal aid then acknowledged that these cases can be complex. He said that he would look further into those cases. That was an assertion made in another place and we are hoping that we will hear a little more on that in this Chamber.
Several factors contribute to the complexity of these cases and the need for legal aid to be retained. First, as my noble friend Lord Avebury and others have pointed
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The United Kingdom Border Agency also frequently disputes family relationships and accordingly many applications are protracted and evidentially complex. It alleges bad faith that the person concerned is not related. But the UK Border Agency loses 61 per cent of its cases. On appeal, the immigration judge is confined by the evidence presented to him, however careful he may be to treat litigants in person. Of course, when you are dealing with applicants who are abroad, the hearing is restricted by the absence of the family members at the appeal hearing. They are still overseas and therefore cannot be called to give evidence. Continued separation is a major obstacle to a refugee's integration into the United Kingdom.
Refugee family reunion applications are complicated by the fact that not all applications are permitted to be made under the rules. Child refugees cannot secure family reunion and must rely on applications made outside the rules. There are all sorts of complex problems relating to family members. At the end of the day, it prevents the person who has been accepted and is able to enjoy the protection of this country from settling down and becoming integrated into our society.
Amendment 71 deals with matters that we have already covered. It is almost an omnibus provision that deals with refugee family reunion, on which I have just addressed your Lordships, to immigration matters concerning trafficking victims, which we addressed before the dinner break, and onward appeals relating to immigration-a matter that I raised at the outset of the Committee deliberations. I beg to move, and I trust that my noble and learned friend will have his responses ready.
Lord Avebury: I warmly support my noble friend in this amendment. I reinforce what he has already said by reference to a note issued by the UNHCR dated November 2011, which I presume has been drawn to the attention of my noble and learned friend the Minister. Has he been approached directly by the UNHCR on these matters? If so, what was his response? I very much look forward to hearing from him. He is nodding, which I presume means-
Lord Avebury: I was saying that I hope that this note, which we have all received from the UNHCR, has been sent by the UNHCR representative in the
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As my noble friend has already pointed out, the UNHCR is concerned because, although the safeguarding of asylum seekers' access to legal aid is being retained, it is worried about the way in which the Bill limits access to legal aid for families of refugees who seek to rejoin their family members in the United Kingdom. The UNHCR notes with concern that,
I cannot think of a more powerful agency to make representations of this kind than the UNHCR. It almost goes as far as to say that it is a breach of the refugee convention to deny legal aid to the family members. As my noble friend pointed out, the UNHCR believes that,
One point on which I think I should add to my noble friend's comments is on disputed family relationships, which are frequently a matter of continued difference between the UKBA and the applicant and which have to be resolved by reference to, for example, DNA evidence. The UNHCR asks how the costs of evidence gathering and the private legal fees that have to be borne in connection with this process can be borne by the refugee and his family. It notes that,
However, the UNHCR points out that, since a refugee family are still outside the United Kingdom, they are not able to claim asylum in their own right-they would have to travel illegally to the United Kingdom to make such an application. Is that what the Government want them to do? It seems to me that, by denying them legal aid, the Government are inciting them to break our immigration laws and enter by some other means in order that they can claim asylum here in their own right. This cannot be right, and I hope that my noble friend will consider these amendments very seriously.
Lord Bach: My Lords, I can be very brief. The arguments put forward for these amendments are very powerful and I have nothing to add to them, save to say that this relates to families, and one of things that this Government claim-as all Governments do, quite rightly-is their faith in the family. It would be slightly ironic if the Government went on with the Bill as it is now published, in terms of the effect that this may have on refugee families, when they have the answers given to them by the exception provided for in the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. We think the Government should accept his amendment.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, Amendment 69, moved by my noble friend, seeks to bring family reunion cases into the scope of legal aid. In recognising the purpose of the amendment, I also wish to indicate that the anticipated cost of that would be around £5 million a year.
Such cases involve a person who has been granted asylum and sponsors the applications of the immediate family to join them here in the United Kingdom. Applications to join family members are immigration applications rather than asylum ones. This may to some extent respond to the point made by my noble friend Lord Avebury when he indicated that there was an encouragement to people to come in as illegal immigrants and to be asylum seekers. I have repeated on many occasions that asylum will come within the scope of legal aid, but it is widely recognised that navigating the laws is far more complex than is intended to be the case with regard to immigration applications in such cases.
Lord Avebury: I may have misled my noble friend. What I was pointing out was that it was the Government's own suggestion that family members should claim asylum in their own right and that the only method by which they could do so was to enter the United Kingdom by some unlawful means so that they could claim asylum.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I hear what my noble friend says. I will check, but I was not aware that the Government had encouraged people to come in in those circumstances. The point that I was about to make was that UK Border Agency guidance in these cases, when people are coming in under an immigration route, is that it sets out presumption of a grant of an application if the relevant criteria are met. The evidence required, such as marriage and birth certificates, should not require specialist legal assistance to collate. Indeed, the entry clearance officer may on occasion ask for DNA testing to prove a family relationship, but in these circumstances the test will be free of charge to the applicant.
These cases do not require specialist legal advice and, as we have indicated with other immigration cases, it is not necessary for them to remain within the scope of civil legal aid. Nevertheless, I recognise what my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford said in moving his amendment. In spite of the fact that most cases should be relatively straightforward, as my honourable friend the parliamentary under-secretary Mr Djanogly indicated, there are some cases which are complex-I would certainly repeat what he indicated in the other place-so we will look at this again. I say this without wanting to raise an expectation, but it is important that we look at the issues where there are complex cases, and I undertake to look at that aspect again.
On Amendment 71, as my noble friend indicated we have dealt with most of these issues in the course of the evening. I am prepared to elaborate on the answers again, but perhaps he could just take as read the answers given in respect of those cases. Again, the issue relates to the fact that, as a general rule, we have
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On the question asked by my noble friend Lord Avebury about the UNHCR letter, I do not recall seeing the letter and nor does my noble friend Lord McNally. However, it is my understanding that Mr Djanogly has not only seen it but replied to it and has done so in the terms in which I have replied to the debate. In those circumstances, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: I am grateful for the assurance that the Minister has given that he will look at this matter again and consider what the attitude of the Government should be in complex cases involving family reunification.
"Respondents argued that these cases are akin to claims for asylum ... if a person wishes to claim asylum it is open to that person to do so either as a dependant of a primary asylum claimant or to do so in his or her own right. Legal aid for any such asylum claim will be in scope".
As my noble friend Lord Avebury has said, the family members with which this amendment is concerned are outside the United Kingdom and cannot claim asylum unless they get here. The only way that they can get here would be through some hazardous and clandestine journey to get to this country and make a claim. It would be unlawful under the Immigration Act 1971 for a person in this country, including a person who has been granted asylum, to assist them in any way but if they can get here and claim asylum, they then apparently get legal aid to fight their claim. That seems ludicrous. I am sure that my noble and learned friend, in considering the matter further as he has promised to do, will take that into account, but for the moment I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.
"( ) situations where a person's financial difficulties could lead to loss of home."
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 82ZC and 82D in the name of my noble friends Lord Bach and Lord Beecham. In so doing, I declare an interest as chair of the Consumer Credit Counselling Service, the country's leading debt advice and solutions charity.
Under the proposals in the Bill all legal aid for debt issues, including advice, is excluded from the scope of legal aid except for legal services provided in relation to a bankruptcy order against individuals under Part IX of the Insolvency Act 1986, where the individual's estate includes their home. As I understand it, the Government's view is that debt advice is not strictly legal work and that financial matters are a far lesser priority than matters such as homelessness or loss of liberty.
We disagree. All debt problems are underpinned by complex contractual obligations, and debt advisers typically need to advise debtors on issues of liability, consumer credit contracts, creditors' enforcement powers, statutory debt remedies and enforcement processes within the court system and beyond. While some debt advice may appear to be primarily negotiation over repayment terms and schedules, it is important to note that in fact such negotiations take place within a legal framework such as protections under the Consumer Credit Act. It is also true that the experience of my charity, the CCCS, and others in this field, such as Citizens Advice, is that most if not all of those who contact us for debt advice have other issues, such as illness, employment problems or relationship problems, which have either caused the problem or contributed to it. It is this compounding effect which makes the withdrawal of legal aid for all debt issues seem such a simplistic proposal.
Other areas where we consider that there is a good case for retaining legal aid are the important debtor protections under consumer credit legislation, which allows unfair or mis-sold consumer credit agreements to be legally challenged and ensures that citizens can challenge enforcement actions. However, I mainly want to focus on a clear lacuna that will be left from the withdrawal of legal aid for debt in relation to statutory debt relief remedies. Debt relief orders, or DROs, were introduced by Part 5 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 as a quicker and cheaper alternative to bankruptcy for those with no income and no assets. They require application via an approved intermediary working for organisations which are approved by the Insolvency Service. Approved intermediaries are experienced debt advisers who are often legal aid-funded debt caseworkers.
DROs have proved a successful alternative to bankruptcy and are delivered at a far lower cost to the Insolvency Service. They are designed for people with debts of below £15,000 with no income or assets. The scheme enables the applicant to be discharged after 12 months with all their debts written off. It is generally thought to have been effective in supporting people who need debt relief but cannot afford bankruptcy or meet the criteria for an IVA. Indeed, more than 25,000 debt relief orders were made in 2010.
The key reason why the scheme is successful is that it is low cost. Under the DRO scheme, the application or administration fee is £90. It is possible for the DRO scheme to work at this low cost only if the approved intermediaries are funded from elsewhere. Fees would have to be substantially increased if the DRO scheme
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If the Bill goes ahead in its present form, it is not easy to see how the DRO system will survive. Thousands of people who would otherwise be able to write off their debts will not be able to do so. Their problems and suffering can be imagined. I cannot believe that BIS would be happy with that situation. Is this really what the Government intend?
The obvious solution to this problem is to retain legal aid in debt cases for remedies under Part 5 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. Citizens Advice has established from its data that approximately 13 per cent of the Legal Services Commission-funded debt casework involves DROs-in other words, about £3 million of what the LSC currently spends on debt advice. We also think that there is a case for keeping within scope advice around other debtor protections and contractual rights under the Consumer Credit Act, unsecured lending, advice around remedies for creditor harassment, disputing liability for debts and court enforcement of debts by bailiffs who, it is alleged, often exceed their legal powers. We estimate that this would be between 20 per cent and 30 per cent of current work-that is, around £5 million of what is currently funded by the LSC on debt advice. We think that this is justified and ask the Government to think again about removing all debt from legal aid. I beg to move.
The private rented sector has no regulator, in stark contrast to the social housing sector, nor is there an ombudsman to consider complaints against private landlords as there is for complaints against housing associations and council landlords. There is a voluntary ombudsman scheme for complaints about managing and letting agents, and I declare my interest as chair of the independent council of the Property Ombudsman. However, that redress scheme-
Amendments 72 and 82ZC would bring into scope debt matters that are not covered in Schedule 1 and which we intend no longer to fund. We are faced, as we have said before, with tough choices in this current fiscal climate, but this has allowed us to focus resources
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Amendment 72 relates to paragraph 28 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 and appears to be aimed at making legally aided advice, assistance and representation available where a person's financial difficulties, such as debt problems, could potentially lead to the individual losing their home.
Amendment 82ZC would bring into scope all debt matters not covered in Schedule 1. In our consultation on legal aid reform, we proposed that funding should be prioritised on cases where the individual's home is at immediate risk. We are therefore retaining legal aid in relation to court orders for possession or sale of the home and in relation to eviction. We generally consider that other debt matters are a lower priority and therefore do not justify public funding for legal advice and representation.
We recognise that early advice can be helpful in a range of contexts. However, what people often need is general advice, for example on welfare benefits, debt or housing, rather than legal advice. There are many alternative sources of help with debt issues, including Credit Action, the National Debtline, the Consumer Credit Counselling Service and local authorities, which also direct people to local sources of advice and assistance on debt matters. In addition, the Money Advice Trust has recently launched My Money Steps, an online tool for providing advice for people with debt problems. The Consumer Credit Counselling Service also offers a free online debt remedy service.
We also recognise the argument that withdrawal of legal aid for any issue could lead, by a chain of events, to serious consequences. We considered this point carefully when formulating our final proposals. However, our view is that the limited public funds for legal advice and representation should be focused on those cases where the client faces serious direct consequences. Therefore, we do not propose to devote these limited public funds to less important cases on the basis that they could indirectly lead to more serious consequences for that person.
It is also important to recognise that the Bill does not require legal proceedings to have been issued before legal aid can be made available. Legal aid will be available where action for repossession or eviction is contemplated-for example, where a person receives a letter threatening repossession action in the absence of payment. Therefore, legal aid will be available to a person threatened with repossession action for mortgage or rent arrears, for example to negotiate with the mortgage lenders. It should also be noted that we will retain funding for the housing possession court duty scheme. It offers free legal advice and representation to anyone in danger of eviction or having property repossessed, on the day of the hearing, regardless of their means. Research shows that 77 per cent of clients who receive this last-minute advice avoid the immediate loss of their home. Under the circumstances, I hope the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Amendment 82D appears to be aimed at bringing into scope debt relief remedies under Part 5 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and, in
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It is important to note that debt relief orders are relatively informal procedures. Advisers act as approved intermediaries and assist debtors in applying to the Insolvency Service for a debt relief order. I reiterate that individuals who have debt issues are able to seek advice from alternative routes. For example, the Insolvency Service website provides guidance and leaflets, and information is available through the insolvency inquiry line. Importantly, it should be noted that debt relief orders are used by people who owe limited amounts of money and have no assets. Therefore, they do not involve a person's home being at immediate risk. They are clearly not analogous to cases in which a home owner is at immediate risk of losing their home as a result of involuntary bankruptcy. I hope that noble Lords will be reassured by what I have said and will not press these amendments.
Lord Howarth of Newport: Can the Minister assure the Committee with complete confidence that every single one of the organisations that he has named in his remarks are confident that they will be in a position to provide debt advice-indeed, sufficient personalised debt advice-to the people who will need it? Has he taken into account that the number of people sinking into the toils of debt is increasing hand over fist as the economy deteriorates?
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for trying to come to my aid. I am sorry that he was not able to continue with that. I am sure that he would have been able to include debt into the case that he was making, skilled orator that he is. However, this is a dialogue and I would like to respond to a few of the points that the Minister made.
We have heard the rhetoric about tough choices a number of times in these debates and no doubt we will hear it again. I wonder whether we might get a second script. Perhaps we could work together on that and enjoy a variation on the theme. We on this side of the House accept that legal aid costs have to go down, and have said so. We understand what the Minister is saying but we think that we have other ways of doing that. However, the same question emerges whichever way you approach this: namely, in saving a cost on an annual basis are the Government providing value for money in the long run? We have severe doubts that that is happening.
As my noble friend Lord Howarth mentioned, debts are increasing although perhaps not quite in the way that he indicated. CCCS, the charity which I chair, receives approximately 500,000 inquiries a year. Our average client owes more than £25,000 to more than eight different lenders. These people have a debt problem. The debts are not necessarily related to housing, to which a different contractual basis often applies, but arise because people overstretch themselves. As I tried to say in my opening address, they also arise because other things happen to these people; for example, they lose their jobs, suffer bereavement or become ill. This is not an easy area to talk about. It is not helpful to be overly simplistic and talk about owner-occupiers whose mortgages are at risk when many of these people will be in rented accommodation. However, the problems arising from losing their homes will be just as bad. I do not see any solution coming forward for those people.
The main point that I was trying to get across in my address concerned the DRO effect. I am afraid that the Minister did not answer the question that I posed: namely, what fee will be necessary to enable this service to be continued? It is presently £90. It seems to me that it will go up to nearer the fee that is charged for a full bankruptcy of £900. What will happen to debt advisers? Will funds be available to keep that generic debt advice going, particularly in the citizens advice area? As we explained, the only reason that the DRO system has continued is that the debt advisers are largely paid for by legal aid funds. If that goes, are we saying that those people who are in severe difficulty with their debts will have to rely on a website, which they probably cannot access because they do not have the necessary equipment, or guidance in leaflets? I do not think that that is a satisfactory solution to what is clearly a very serious problem.
"( ) a demolition order under section 82A of the Housing Act 1985 or section 6A of the Housing Act 1988."
Lord Shipley: I rise to move Amendment 72A and to speak to Amendments 72B to 72D, 74C, 77A to 77H, 77K, 78A and 78B. That makes a total of 16 amendments, but they are interrelated so I hope that at this late hour it will not take too long to speak to them.
As it stands, the Bill would limit housing and debt legal aid to homelessness, loss of home and very serious cases of disrepair. However, there are major problems with the definitions that would enable an individual to qualify for legal advice and support. This set of amendments forms a set of proposals that would address this difficulty.
The Bill currently applies a very tight legalistic test in making legal aid available in cases involving court orders for sale or possession or for eviction proceedings. The nature of the test would make it very difficult to solve a problem at an early stage, which would be practical, fair and effective both for the individual and the legal system.
These amendments would make it easier for an individual in financial difficulties that could lead to the loss of their home to get help at the pre-litigation stage in a case, for example, involving arrears. The cost of allowing the advice process to start earlier could be as low as around £3 million, but could solve problems earlier and save money later when litigation occurs.
Specifically, Amendments 72B and 72C would enable an individual threatened with the loss of their home, due to the failure to pay either the rent or the mortgage, to get advice on any underlying benefit problems. The problem is that the proposals in the Bill are that all benefits work is to be removed from the scope of legal aid, except in cases that go to judicial review.
At present, legal aid helps to fund support to defend possession proceedings as well as to resolve underlying benefit issues. Although in theory the Government have said that the loss of the home will continue to be prioritised for legal aid funding, the Bill will in fact prevent advisers from resolving benefits problems that lead to eviction proceedings. This is despite the fact that early intervention to resolve benefits issues often prevents these situations from escalating into possession proceedings. The danger is that the exclusion of benefits work from legal aid will tie the hands of advisers who are trying to prevent homelessness and will lead to many more unresolved cases filling the county courts. The courts will have more adjourned hearings and will ultimately have to make more possession orders because there is no one to resolve the benefits issue. This could result in higher costs to the taxpayer as a consequence.
Amendment 74C enables people to obtain advice where their right to occupy their home has been terminated for reasons entirely beyond their control and for which they bear no responsibility. The Bill as currently worded removes the entitlement to legal aid-funded advice from people who are regarded as "trespassers in law", even if they were perfectly lawful occupiers when they first moved into the premises and they may indeed have been living there lawfully for many years.
The policy intention seems to be to exclude squatters from legally aided advice. However, a consequence of the wording is to exclude unfairly others who unknowingly may be counted as trespassers and who may need legal advice. The term "trespasser" is not synonymous with "squatter", which denotes those who enter premises that they have no lawful right to occupy. A trespasser is someone who currently has no right in law to occupy their accommodation. In other words, a squatter is and has been a trespasser from day one of their occupation, but other people may have become trespassers, often without knowing it, when circumstances change.
This change of status occurs in common situations such as the following: a person who takes a tenancy when the landlord is actually a tenant too and cannot
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Amendments 77A to 77H, 77K, 78A and 78B relate to the rights of tenants and the powers of landlords. A difficulty with the Bill as it stands is that it decreases the powers of vulnerable tenants. For example, essential repairs and maintenance may not be done by a landlord but it may be impossible for a vulnerable tenant to do anything about it unless legal aid is available for disrepair and harassment damages claims. Amendment 77B extends the range of disrepair cases within the scope of lega1 aid by providing that legal aid should be available in cases where there is a risk of harm to the health or safety of the individual, not only where the risk is "serious". Trivial and unmeritorious cases claims would still be excluded by the operation of the legal aid merits test.
Amendments 77D, 77H and 77K expand the class of persons whose health or safety is at risk to include anyone who resides in the property as a household member, even if he or she is not related to the tenant. Amendments 77A, 77C, 77E and 77F would allow funding to continue subject to means and merits to enable a tenant to claim damages where the landlord has carried out repairs.
Amendments 78A and 78B would ensure that legal aid continues to be available for people needing to pursue a damages claim. In that case, most legal remedies used against difficult landlords include a claim for damages even where the tenant is seeking an injunction. That is necessary because, in contract law, damages are the primary civil remedy and an injunction will be granted only where damages could not be an adequate form of compensation. The Bill will remove damages claims from the scope of legal aid but leave injunctions within scope, although in successful damages claims legal aid costs will be recompensed in the award.
In future, the Government intend damages to be funded by conditional fee agreements, which will require a client to find a lawyer willing to act for them on that basis. It is unlikely that that will be feasible in all but the most exceptional cases. In practice, the decoupling of damages from injunctions has the effect of offering only a part remedy to those needing to rely on legal aid. The law entitling tenants to claim for damages will remain on the statute books, but the low-income client dependent on legal aid will have no way to access that form of redress.
In the case of illegal eviction, the Government have been persuaded that both damages and injunctions should remain eligible for legal aid. In Committee in
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The cost of the amendments could be low. The Law Society has estimated that 60 per cent of the Government's estimated savings in social welfare will not be made because of knock-on costs. I hope that some further work can be done before Report to ensure that the impact of the Bill can be minimised.
I have one final point. The Supreme Court, citing the European Court of Human Rights, has recently upheld the need for the legal system to put in place appropriate safeguards where something as serious as eviction is concerned. It stated:
"The loss of one's home is a most extreme form of interference with the right to respect for the home. Any person at risk of an interference of this magnitude should in principle be able to have the proportionality of the measure determined by an independent tribunal ... notwithstanding that, under domestic law, his right of occupation has come to an end".
That is exactly the position of occupiers in the examples I have mentioned. The legal system cannot provide appropriate safeguards if such individuals cannot receive legal advice. The amendments would make legal aid available to ensure that low-income tenants can receive advice on their occupancy rights and ensure that people are not unfairly denied advice where they have major tenancy problems or where their home is about to be taken away from them.
Lord Best: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 72A and support the case made by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for legal aid in housing cases to go beyond those where someone faces imminent loss of their home. I have made the case that the private rented sector has no regulator and no ombudsman. Therefore, private rented tenants are in a different position from consumers of other necessities such as electricity, gas, water, telephone or even financial services. If tenants are in dispute with their landlords, the only way of obtaining redress may well be to go to court.
That being so, legal advice can be of enormous help, not least in explaining to some tenants that they do not have a case and that it would be a waste of the time of the tenant and the courts to go down the route of litigation. Thanks to the current legal aid system, a publicly funded solicitor can advise tenants at an early stage that they should not pursue a hopeless case. If legal advice is not available, more tenants will try to proceed through the courts with ill advised cases as litigants in person, causing the courts and landlords-both private and public-to incur irrecoverable legal costs for wasted time litigating nonsense. My barrister colleague, Peter Marcus, who specialises in housing, tells me that he handles cases where, even if the landlord makes a successful application to have the tenant's case struck out, the landlord none the less incurs significant irrecoverable legal fees.
Of course, the case for legal aid for housing matters goes much deeper than that. Justifiable cases against landlords, regrettably, are only too common in this
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Informing bad landlords that, however awful their behaviour, they will not be taken to court is like telling Somali pirates that they will never be held to account if they board ships and demand fantastic ransoms. It seems bound to lead to an escalation of criminality. Removing recourse to legal aid removes the capacity of tenants credibly to threaten litigation, leaving them with no way out of the misery of living in a property where the heating system does not work, where there is no management of anti-social neighbours, where disrepair is a major issue and where landlords simply refuse to answer letters or phone calls. As we all know, acute shortages mean that tenants, unlike consumers in other areas, do not have the luxury of being able to shop around and find a better property elsewhere.
The other way in which housing differs from other services lies in the legal complexities that surround it. Quite apart from the extensive body of landlord/tenant legislation, the ever changing entitlements to benefits-for example, to local housing allowances-are fiendishly complicated. Social landlords very often provide expert welfare benefits advice but private landlords, of course, do not. The ordinary consumer-the tenant-cannot be expected to have full knowledge of the legal niceties to deploy in a tribunal hearing; hence the need for professional advice, for which legal aid provides the funding mechanism. Take this away and not only will landlords be able to break the law with impunity but tenants who are ignorant of their entitlements or who are victims of incompetence at the hands of bureaucrats will never see justice.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has made the case for legal aid housing advice preventing problems escalating to homelessness, and legal aid help for housing cases has to go much wider than stepping in at the last minute when possession of the home is imminent. Of course, many cases are not about eviction. Moreover, some of the cases where eviction has occurred may be about ancillary aspects of the actions of the landlord-it is not uncommon for tenants who are unlawfully evicted to have all their possessions thrown out of the property. If the landlord has previously exercised violence or harassment, the tenant may have no wish to get back their former home but merely to get back their belongings or obtain compensation for belongings destroyed. It would be perverse if a tenant could not get legal aid in such cases unless they declared that they wanted to go back into a property to which it would be unreasonable, if not unsafe, to return.
Regrettably, although we now depend on the private rented sector to house many poorer households, it is fraught with conflict that often requires a legal input to get sorted. With benefits advice being taken out of scope and the likely closure of many citizens advice bureaux as a result, housing is badly affected by the Bill. This surely is one area of our national life where legal aid is essential. Its withdrawal will not only cause misery but will cost central and local government money in picking up the pieces. I support the amendment.
Lord Howarth of Newport: My Lords, the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Best, was well worth waiting for. This is a very important and valuable group of amendments and I endorse the arguments so powerfully stated by the noble Lords who have spoken. Under the Government's proposals in the Bill, legal aid will no longer be available for damages claims in relation to tenancy disputes; for example, disrepair. CLG tells us that more than 40 per cent of private rented dwellings do not meet the decent homes standard. Tenants will still be able to get legal aid to seek injunctions to get the work done, although only where there is serious risk of harm to the health or safety of the household. So there is a very high threshold for one to get legal aid for an injunction of that kind.
Under the current arrangements, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, explained, bad landlords know that the longer that they delay in carrying out the repairs, the greater the damages that they will have to pay. Therefore, the current arrangement, whereby legal aid is available for damages suits for disrepair, constitutes an incentive on landlords to carry out the repairs relatively promptly. Without the availability of legal aid for such damages claims, the pressure on landlords not to let their properties fall into disrepair will be removed.
Illegal eviction, actual or threatened, is a horrible reality for all too many people. Under the Government's proposals, legal aid will be available only to secure an injunction for the tenant to be reinstated to the property from which he has been illegally evicted. Again, as the noble Lord said, it is most likely that tenants will not want to go back to a tenancy with that same landlord. They will want to secure recovery of their possessions but they will not want to go back to that landlord. Under the Government's proposals, the worst landlords will be able to get away with the worst behaviour and their victims will not be protected and will not be able to obtain compensation. The availability, through legal aid, of damages claims against bad landlords is a deterrent against bad behaviour; and the aggravated and exemplary damages that are, from time to time, awarded because the court takes a particularly severe view of the behaviour of a landlord are a most important deterrent. We will not be able to see that working in the future.
These problems are all too extensive. Environmental health officers testify to the fact that there are too many bad landlords and that many of them behave with the peculiar ruthlessness with which unfortunately people tend to act in housing matters; 90 per cent of environmental health officers say that they have personal
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Removing welfare benefit and debt cases from the scope of legal aid will mean, as my noble friend Lord Stevenson pointed out, that we will see a compounding effect of people getting deeper and deeper into trouble until they face homelessness. Under the Government's proposals, only then will they be able to get legal aid to help extricate them from the crisis that they have been allowed to get into.
This policy will increase insecurity and distress among tenants. It will add to the pressure on tribunals and courts, as the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Best, told us. It will increase costs to the taxpayer because of the consequences of the distress and of the problems that will be without remedy.
The Minister prayed in aid time and again in debates on different parts of this foolish and iniquitous Bill the requirement of the Treasury that the Ministry of Justice should make its contribution to reducing the deficit. The Treasury will certainly not be swayed by the pathos of vulnerable people finding themselves in greater difficulty than they need be in, but it should be swayed by the prospect of increased costs being shunted around Whitehall so that we end up with no reduction of the deficit but possibly an increase in it. I very much hope that the Treasury will review the policy that is proposed in the Bill before we get to Report. I hope that it will look at the arguments and figures put forward by Dr Cookson of King's College. The central case on which the Minister relies-that all this, miserable though it may be, is inescapably necessary in order to reduce the deficit-is profoundly flawed. I hope that on Report we will see major government amendments to the Bill.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury: My Lords, after three excellent speeches I will make only one point, following directly from the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. What I may perhaps call the Cookson report-the King's College report-quantifies certain knock-on costs. What it does not do is look at indirect knock-on costs. For example, in a case such as the one my noble friend referred to when he moved the amendment of somebody not getting timely advice and as a result finding that he and his family were on the street with the local authority having to pick up the problem and provide housing, along with the welfare fallout and so on, the indirect costs were not included in the figures of the King's College report. That makes the self-interest of the Government in listening to and agreeing the amendments in this group all the more acute.
My only other point was made by all three preceding speakers but is worth emphasising. The noble Lord, Lord Best, drew an analogy with Somali pirates. He talked of a small minority of exploitative landlords. That is absolutely fair; it is only a small minority of private landlords. However, they are concentrated among poor tenancies. If we throw our minds back to Rachman, we will remember that his tenants were among the poorest in London. That was no accident. Landlords who are of that evil mind know that poor tenants are least able to protect and stand up for themselves, and most easily harassed. Again, it is an issue of self-interest on the part of the Treasury to recognise that. If it does, it will see the sense of the amendments in this group without getting into morality and justice.
The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I confess to feeling very troubled by what I have heard in the Chamber during this debate. I will say a few words about my concerns in particular about vulnerable families in private accommodation. A few years ago I accompanied a health visitor in the borough of Redbridge in north-east London just north of West Ham. We visited a number of families living in very poor conditions in private property. In one such home the basement was flooded and the landlord had taken no action to remedy this. Another was overcrowded. A mother and her two young children shared one room with water almost running down the walls. The third, and most shocking, was a home in which the shower and the lavatory were somehow combined in one system. It may be a small proportion of landlords, but there seemed to be a lot of them in Redbridge, back then, at least. I declare my interest as a landlord. I hope that the Minister can offer some real reassurance in his reply that the most vulnerable individuals and families in society are not going to suffer significantly because of what the Government propose.
Lord Beecham: My Lords, I come to this debate informed not only, as ever, by the noble Lord, Lord Best, whose expertise in matters of housing is second to none in your Lordships' House, but by my experience over many years representing an inner-city ward in Newcastle that has a mix of housing. It has owner-occupiers, a substantial number of council houses, houses owned by registered social landlords and a significant number of private rented properties, many of which are, I have to say, poorly managed and which present many problems to the tenants. It is certainly true that, as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has said, some landlords are exploitative. Others are simply incapable for one reason or another of managing their properties adequately. They do not have the resources or the skill, or they may not live locally. Whatever the reason, it is the tenants who suffer. In these circumstances, there has to be some redress.
I will be speaking to Amendment 81, which seeks to cut to the chase in terms of the overall issue. The amendment so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, deals with a series of issues, but Amendment 81 simply seeks to restore legal aid across the piece in housing matters, which strikes my noble friends and me as probably the most efficacious way of dealing with the problem. That is not in any way to minimise
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Housing is now becoming one of the critical areas of public policy. For those engaged in not only the policy but the daily life that is influenced by housing, it is obvious that matters are getting increasingly difficult. We have spiralling rents and a shortage of available accommodation exacerbated, as other noble Lords have said, by pending changes to housing benefits that are likely to lead to still greater pressure on the private rented sector. At the same time, councils are having increasing difficulty in maintaining their stock as capital programmes are reduced and repairs and investment in existing council properties become more difficult to achieve. It must be said that not all councils are wonderful managers of property. Council tenants also have their problems and need redress as, occasionally, do the tenants of registered social landlords. What will occur as a result of the changes that the Bill proposes is that 40 per cent of housing cases-52,000 cases-will lose legal help, often from organisations such as Shelter rather than from solicitors but sometimes from solicitors, and that will save the Exchequer some £10 million. There will be 1,200 cases where legal representation will no longer be available. That will save the Exchequer £3 million. These are not inordinately large sums one might think, and other noble Lords have pointed out that the potential on-cost to other services could be considerably greater. Under the provisions of the Bill, there will be exceptional case funding, up to 25 per cent for some proceedings. I do not know whether the Minister is able to indicate the likely take-up. Up to 25 per cent can, of course, mean from virtually nothing up to 25 per cent, and it is not entirely clear what proceedings are envisaged in the term "some proceedings". A little enlightenment on that would be helpful.
As we have heard, legal aid will still be available for eviction cases, but in effect at the last gasp and not at a stage when matters might be resolved earlier, potentially to the benefit of both sides. That must be a more cost-effective way of dealing with it. However, we are not just dealing with money; we are dealing with people's lives, with families and individuals living in stressful conditions once the threat-explicit or otherwise, legal or otherwise-is made, and that must also have a bearing on how society reacts in terms of the assistance it is prepared to offer.
Of course, much of the problem arises in the private sector, although it should be clear that it is a minority of landlords who are deliberately exploiting and neglecting their tenants. However, it is disconcerting that 100 per cent of environmental health officers encounter persistent failures on the part of landlords to carry out their obligations. Every environmental health officer has cases of that kind to deal with. Sixty per cent of them say that more than half the cases they are involved with affect vulnerable people, so we are dealing with a significant and very widespread problem affecting many vulnerable people.
A very strong case has been made by previous speakers around the issue of damages. It seems absurd that damages claims for distress, hardship or loss or damage to possessions will not be covered by legal aid that might be available to deal with evictions. It is clearly necessary to restore legal aid and assistance for a damages claim alongside repair orders, for example. After all, at the moment it is possible for a court to award aggravated or even exemplary damages in particularly bad cases, which is a clear indication of the extent of the problem. Of course, if legal aid is not available, the situation is simply going to get worse.
I have no doubt the Minister will fall back yet again-and I am not blaming him, that is the job that he has to do on behalf of the Government-on saying that there are alternatives to legal aid, but that is not a realistic view. Local authorities certainly have housing departments; they often have housing advice services, but these are also under pressure. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, would no doubt confirm that in the last year of the previous administration in Newcastle there was a reduction in the number of people employed precisely in this area of dealing with private landlords; he is nodding his agreement.
Shelter, the body most concerned with and most effective in helping tenants, is sustaining a 70 per cent cut in its anticipated capacity to offer advice. I was rather surprised to learn that this is not just a problem of the cities, as one might think-of the Newcastles and Manchesters and Birminghams. If Shelter's figures are to be believed-and there is no reason to dispute them-the reduction in the number of cases and the income of Shelter branches will actually be greater in Dorset and Somerset than in Manchester and Newcastle. So we are not talking about a specifically urban problem-not that it should make any difference where these things occur-we are talking about a very widespread problem reaching right across the country. It is clearly necessary to provide access to as much help as possible. It may very well be required to be legal help from the legal profession. But in many cases it would be through precisely the kind of organisation that normally Ministers would be able to pray in aid as being available. They simply will not be available on the scale required. Amendment 81 seeks to restore legal aid for housing. As I have already indicated, the direct cost would not be inordinate but the indirect savings to the public purse would be greater if it is available.
As we have seen earlier today, Amendment 90ZZB has been spatchcocked into this group. It is based on a Law Society proposal to ensure that legal aid is available for advocacy, once again, in the Court of Protection for people in relation to the right of respect for a person's home or their private life, which comes under the European convention. The Law Society's view is that if the Bill is not amended someone who suffers from learning disabilities or dementia, and is facing a forced removal from their home by a relative or a public authority, would have no legal aid to be represented before the Court of Protection. Although there may be other issues around deprivation of family life, some cases would not be within the scope of legal aid if the Bill is implemented as drafted. That is particularly the
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The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised the issue of trespassers. By sheer coincidence, I received an e-mail today on behalf of a constituent who suffers from very poor health and disability, and has been caring for a relative who has died. He is now concerned about his position vis-à-vis his occupancy of the house. Technically, he is a trespasser-or he will be as soon as the arm's-length management company which manages the house tells him that he has to go. He would not be able to receive legal advice under the terms of this Bill. That puts into very clear light the difficulties which the Bill would create.
Bad housing and the trauma of eviction and homelessness lead to damage to individuals and families, and clearly have social and, ultimately, financial costs which have to be borne by the public purse. For legal aid in these cases to be restricted by a mantra that it is to be available only in respect of cases affecting life and liberty is to create a two-tier system of justice, which is particularly objectionable in such an important area as housing on an individual's life and the lives of communities. Having heard the very strong arguments from all around this house, not least from at least part of the coalition Benches, I hope that the Government will rethink their position. If they proceed with the Bill in its present form, this would be one of the gravest errors that they would make. I urge them to listen to their colleagues in this place and those in the Commons who, in fairness, made similar points. It is not too late to see sense and to retain rights which can make a significant difference to people's lives.
Lord McNally: My Lords, this large group includes a number of government amendments, which I presume are acceptable in their being mainly technical. I am extremely pleased to be sandwiched between my noble friend Lord Shipley and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, as far as this debate is concerned. It is a great tribute to that great city of Newcastle that two of its most pre-eminent city leaders should now be giving such good service in this House and is a reflection of the quality of our civic leadership.
As is obvious, this group of amendments has provided a very useful opportunity to examine our proposals as they affect housing. I do not underestimate the importance of housing as an issue. Like the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, I am old enough to remember Rachmanism and when and how it entered our language. I can still remember the shock that the initial showing of "Cathy Come Home" had on British society in the late 1960s. There is no doubt that housing matters, as this debate has reflected.
As I said earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, a number of the points that were made either looked at worst-case scenarios or avoided exactly what the Government are providing for in the Bill. For example,
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During the passage of the Bill and in light of respondents' views in consultation, we decided that legal aid should be available for cases of unlawful eviction. We amended the Bill in Commons Committee to ensure that legal aid continues to be available in cases of unlawful eviction for lawful occupiers without a tenancy agreement. Therefore, those who are unlawfully evicted can get legal aid, not only for the case of the eviction but for claims for damages and damage to their goods. We are also retaining legal aid for housing disrepair where it is alleged that the disrepair poses a serious risk to health or life. This, too, will give some protection to tenants. Legal aid will also remain where a tenant is threatened with eviction for early advice on the merits of their case. The merits test, which applies to all legal aid cases, will help prevent public funds being wasted on hopeless cases brought by tenants-a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Best. So we are listening. I shall not repeat the mantra, but we are concentrating limited funds on what we think are the most important cases.
At this hour, I shall go through the amendments to enable noble Lords to see where we are coming from on the issues raised by them. Amendment 81, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, acknowledged, appears to bring into scope housing law areas that are not covered in Schedule 1 and which we intend no longer to fund. We consider that many housing cases are primarily about money or property, and that these issues are not of importance when compared with such fundamental issues as homelessness or the immediate safety of individuals.
As I have already made clear, we intend to retain housing matters in scope only where the individual's home is at immediate risk. Accordingly, legal aid will be available in relation to court orders for the possession or sale of an individual's home and eviction from the home. We are also retaining legal aid for housing disrepair cases where there is a serious risk of harm to the health or safety of the individual or their family, and legal services are provided to ensure that the landlord remedies the disrepair. Legal aid will also be retained for those who are homeless or threatened with homelessness and are seeking homelessness assistance from the local authority.
Amendment 72A is aimed at making legal aid available where a tenant of a private registered provider of social housing, registered social landlord, housing action trust or local housing authority is facing a demotion of their secure or assured tenancy as a result of anti-social behaviour or use of the premises for unlawful purposes.
If an individual's tenancy is demoted, it is replaced with a less secure form of tenancy. Demotion orders are designed to send clear warnings to tenants who are found to have behaved anti-socially or used their home for unlawful purposes. A court can grant a demotion order only where it is satisfied that the alleged behaviour has occurred and that it is reasonable to make the order.
Demotion orders are sought where there is anti-social behaviour but the landlords want to continue working with the tenants to improve their behaviour rather than evicting them outright. Accordingly, the individual is not at immediate risk of losing their home- as with, for example, an application for a possession order-and the Government therefore consider that the provision of legal aid is not justified in these circumstances.
We acknowledge that where a court demotes the tenancy of an individual, it is easier for the landlord subsequently to seek their eviction. However, the granting of the demotion order does not necessarily mean that possession proceedings will be brought, and the tenancy will revert to secure or assured status after 12 months, provided that the landlord has not issued a notice seeking possession during the demotion period-for example, because of further anti-social behaviour. However, where that is not the case and in consequence a possession order is sought by a landlord, legal aid will be available at that point.
Where a local housing authority or housing action trust decides to seek possession, the demoted tenant has the statutory right to seek an internal review of that decision. Legal help will be available for that under paragraph 28(1)(a) of Part 1 of Schedule 1. Legal aid will also be available in possession proceedings against a demoted tenant.
Where the landlord is a public authority and the tenant raises proportionality under Article 8 of the ECHR as a defence to the possession proceedings, case law makes clear that the court must consider proportionality. In addition, where a social landlord obtains a demotion order and subsequently seeks possession of the property, legal aid will be available for the tenant in relation to any judicial review of the landlord's decision to bring possession proceedings.
Amendments 72B and 72C seek to make legally aided advice available in relation to welfare benefit entitlement where the individual is at immediate risk of losing their home and the benefits in question relate to housing costs-for example, housing benefit or the support for mortgage interest component of income support or pension credit.
Legal aid will continue to be available where the home is at immediate risk through the repossession or sale of the home, or eviction. However, legal aid will not be retained for advice on welfare benefits matters. While we recognise that many people rely on benefits, these cases are primarily about financial entitlement and we generally consider their importance to be lower than cases concerning, for example, the liberty or safety of a person.
For those who need assistance on a welfare benefits matters, factual advice is available from, for example, Jobcentre Plus, the benefits inquiry line and the tribunal itself. Accordingly, where possession action results from mortgage or rent arrears caused by a welfare benefits issue, we do not believe that legal aid should be provided in relation to the welfare benefits matter.
I have already explained the Government's reasoning for this. We consider that the tribunal for resolving disputes is generally accessible without the need for legal assistance. Where the benefits dispute is ongoing
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The Government understand that in cases where private landlords bring possession proceedings against their tenants, they will generally give the tenants reasonable notice that they are being asked to leave. Legal aid will be available to help tenants engage with landlords to try and resolve the actual or threatened possession issue wherever possible, including, if possible, coming to an agreement about delaying the possession matter until the benefit matter is resolved.
Amendment 72D relates to the loss-of-home matters at paragraph 28 of Schedule 1. It appears that the intention, by lifting certain exclusions in Part 2 of Schedule 1, is to make legal aid available for a wide range of potential claims in tort and for welfare benefit matters within the context of eviction and possession. The Government amended paragraph 28 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 at Commons Committee stage to lift certain exclusions in Part 2 of the schedule in order to give effect to the original policy intention that legal aid should continue to be available for counterclaims to possession proceedings. It was important to do so as such counterclaims have the potential to keep clients from becoming homeless. We also lifted those exclusions in relation to unlawful eviction, in order to ensure that our policy that legal aid should continue to be available for such matters was given effect.
The provisions that we introduced, now at paragraph 28(6)(a) and (b), lift the exclusions for trespass to person, to property and to land, and breach of a statutory duty in respect of counterclaims to possession proceedings and unlawful eviction proceedings. We believe that the provisions in paragraph 28 already sufficiently lift relevant exclusions in Part 2 of Schedule 1 as are necessary for the purpose of paragraph 28.
Amendment 72D would go much further and is, we believe, intended potentially to allow legal aid funding for any tort claim that may arise in the context of a loss of home. Indeed, it might even in some circumstances make legal aid funding available to a landlord to bring a damages claim against a tenant within the context of eviction.
In relation to tort claims more broadly, they are being more generally excluded from the scope of legal aid. The Government take the view that these cases are essentially claims for money or damages, which are a lower priority for funding than cases that involve more fundamental issues. Conditional fee agreements may provide a viable alternative means of funding such claims.
We are retaining legal aid for the most serious damages claims against public authorities where the issue is an abuse of position or power or a significant breach of human rights, or for any case concerning alleged abuse of a child or vulnerable adult, or alleged sexual offence. We are also retaining funding for claims under the Equality Act 2010.
On welfare benefits, with the exceptions of judicial reviews and claims related to the contravention of the Equality Act 2010, we have decided to remove welfare benefits matters from scope, for the reasons that I gave the House earlier.
Amendment 74C is aimed at ensuring that the provisions of sub-paragraph 28(10) of Schedule 1, which relate to trespassers facing eviction, exclude from legal aid only those who are in occupation as a trespasser and who began their occupation as such. Legal aid will generally be available for possession and eviction matters under paragraph 28 of Part 1 of Schedule 1. However, the Government do not believe that it is justifiable to use taxpayers' money to provide legal aid funding in circumstances where an individual has unarguably both entered and remained on a property or site as a trespasser and is facing eviction. Such cases are intended to be excluded by paragraph 28(10) of Part 1 of Schedule 1.
The Government agree with the objectives behind this amendment and the concern motivated by it, namely that paragraph 28(10) as drafted could be read as having a different effect from that intended. These provisions could possibly be read as preventing an individual from obtaining legal aid for eviction if they unarguably entered as a trespasser but then regularised their arrangement by, for example, entering into a tenancy. The provision could also be interpreted as excluding cases from legal aid where an individual had initial consent to be present-for example, as a tenant-but no longer has such consent, for example, because of a dispute with their landlord.
As government Amendments 74A, 74B and 74D concern the same point, I will deal with them together. These amendments do not represent a change in policy; rather, they are aimed at giving better effect to our stated policy. They therefore address the same objective as Amendment 74C. The Government's amendments are more appropriate to meet the concerns that have been expressed because they leave no room for doubt that the provision achieves the effect that I have described and that the Government have always intended. These government amendments put beyond doubt that the exclusion in paragraph 28 of Schedule 1 in relation to trespassers will apply only when the person is both unarguably occupying a property as a trespasser and began their occupation as such. I hope that noble Lords will be reassured by that clarification.
The next group of amendments relates to the provisions in paragraph 30 of Part 1 of Schedule 1, concerning housing disrepair cases. Amendments 77A, 77C and 77E relate to legal aid for damages claims by tenants relating to disrepair in rented homes-in particular, ensuring that when legal aid has been granted for a housing disrepair case, if the landlord makes arrangements for the repairs to be carried out, or carries them out, legal aid can continue for the damages aspect of the claim until the conclusion of the case. We have prioritised funding on cases which concern such fundamental issues as homelessness and the safety of the individual or their family. We are therefore retaining legal aid when serious disrepairs threaten the health of the client or their family and the client wishes to bring an action against their landlord to remove or reduce that
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It may be that the intention of this and related amendments is generally to extend Schedule 1 to cover disrepair damages claims. In this context, we note that Amendment 77G disapplies a range of the exclusions set out in Part 2 of Schedule 1 which concern causes of action which can be used to obtain damages. As I have already said, we do not consider that damages claims for housing disrepair are a sufficient priority for funding and that conditional fee agreements present a viable alternative means to fund such claims. We recognise that, when a housing disrepair claim is funded under paragraph 30 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 to remove or reduce the serious risk of harm arising from disrepair, and the claim also includes a damages element, legal aid could be extended to cover the excluded damages aspect of the claim. This could happen under the rules for connected matters made under paragraph 40 of Part 1 of Schedule 1.
Amendment 77F appears to be intended, in such cases, to allow funding for the damages aspect of a claim for disrepair to continue to be funded even where the disrepair itself has been addressed by the landlord. We do not consider this to be appropriate or necessary. I have already explained that we do not consider damages claims to be a high priority. In addition, where a landlord has carried out repairs, or has been ordered to do so, this should remove any doubt as to liability for the disrepair. If there continues to be a meaningful damages claim and a reasonable prospect of recovering damages, the client should be able to continue the damages aspect of the claim under a conditional fee agreement. This amendment may also, in part, be motivated by a concern that failure to fund the damages aspect of the case will prevent the legal aid fund from recovering any unrecouped costs. If so, this amendment is unnecessary. Where the damages aspect of a case continued under a conditional fee agreement, if the client were successful in obtaining damages, the statutory charge would ensure that any unrecouped funds expended at the earlier stages of the case by the legal aid fund would be recouped.
In addition, noble Lords should be aware that legal aid will not in general be withdrawn where it is in the interests of the legal aid fund for it to continue. In an unusual case where the damages aspect of a funded case could not be continued under a conditional fee agreement, legal aid for a housing disrepair case could continue to its conclusion to protect public funds by obtaining a costs order, even when repairs have been carried out.
Amendment 77B deletes "serious" and therefore extends funding to cases where there is any risk to health or safety, however small. The Government's intention throughout this reform process has been to focus our constrained resources on the most important cases. That is why the provisions in the Bill target legal aid on those disrepair cases where it is alleged that there is a serious risk to health or safety-it is important to stress the word "alleged" because claimants will not be required to prove the seriousness of the disrepair before funding can be granted. In any case where it is reasonably alleged that disrepair poses a serious risk to health or safety, legal aid will be available to enable the merits of the claim to be investigated. This would include, for example, instruction of a joint expert where possible to investigate the disrepair, in line with the housing disrepair pre-action protocol. While I recognise that some disrepairs start out small and then deteriorate, the reality is that we have to target funding as best we can. That means we cannot fund trivial cases.
Amendments 77D, 77H and 77K appear to be aimed at making legal aid available in disrepair matters under paragraph 30 of Part 1 of Schedule 1, not only where the disrepair poses a threat to the health or safety of the legal aid client or a member of their family, but where the individual whose health or safety is at risk is a household member who is not related to the client. We have clearly stated our intention that legal aid should continue to be available in relation to remedying household disrepairs where it is the legal aid client, or a member of their family, whose health or safety is said to be at serious risk as a consequence of the disrepair. We consider it appropriate that, for example, an individual can apply for legal aid on behalf of their child or partner whose health is jeopardised. However, we see no reason why funding should be extended to other occupiers. These amendments could make schemes vulnerable to abuse by, for example, enabling a person who does not qualify for funding on financial eligibility grounds to obtain legal aid for a disrepair matter by virtue of having a housemate who qualifies for legal aid. We believe that our definition of the relevant family member, set out in paragraph 30(3), is broad enough to capture members of the household who have a sufficiently strong connection to the legal aid client.
Government Amendment 77J relates to the definition of "home" used in relation to housing disrepair matters at paragraph 30 of Part 1 of Schedule 1. This is a minor, technical amendment which addresses a slight discrepancy between the definitions of "home" used in paragraph 30(4) and in paragraph 28(9). The latter paragraph includes "other vehicle or structure" in the definition, but paragraph 30(4) refers only to "other structure". Amendment 77J addresses this unintentional discrepancy and ensures consistency in Schedule 1.
Amendments 78A and 78B appear to be aimed at making legal aid available if a residential occupier of a property brings a claim for damages where they have been harassed, perhaps by their landlord. The Government position is clear: limited legal aid resources should not be focused on cases concerning financial advancement and the obtaining of monetary damages, unless the
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These amendments seek to protect residents from unscrupulous landlords. I reassure noble Lords that there is already significant protection for residents. Paragraph 28 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 provides legal aid in relation to the eviction of an individual from their home, which will include damages claims against a landlord in relation to the unlawful eviction of a residential occupier. In addition, paragraph 32 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 provides legal aid so that those suffering harassment can obtain a protective injunction under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997. An injunction could be granted to prevent interference with the peace or comfort of a resident or to prevent services being unreasonably withheld by a landlord. Breach of such an injunction can bring a prison term of up to five years. For other meritorious damages claims that fall outside the scheme, a conditional fee agreement could be used.
On the point that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, made at the end of his speech about Amendment 90ZZA, we believe that the Bill contains significant safeguards in respect of mental health treatment. Amendment 90ZZB, however desirable, goes beyond what is currently provided by the current civil legal aid scheme. Because we have had to focus our resources, we have had to focus on those interests of the individual that are really of the most vital importance. I therefore hope that the noble Lord will withdraw these and other amendments.
I know that that was quite a gallop through a very detailed set of amendments about what I fully acknowledge is an important issue, and I am sure that noble Lords will want to take tomorrow's Hansard as their bedtime reading. I hope that they will see that some of the issues raised by the noble Earl, the noble Lord, Lord Best, and others are already covered by the Bill and that the Government have listened to some of these concerns. Perhaps we will return to some of them on Report. In the mean time, I ask noble Lords from both ends of Newcastle to withdraw their amendments.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, listening to this debate on housing reminds me of being told when I was very young that a stitch in time saved nine, that for want of a nail a shoe was lost or what would happen if you went out courting on Ilkley Moor without your hat on-I could not think of anything relating to the Lambton Worm, but I am sure there
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Lord Shipley: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his contributions to identifying what is at the heart of this. I am grateful to the Minister for the very full answers that he has given to this set of amendments, but of course broadly speaking what he said is what the Bill says-it was a restatement of the current position.
I ask the Minister to look again at two things. One is the King's College/Law Society evidence base for what the knock-on costs might actually be. The contribution of my noble friend Lord Phillips helped us to understand that some of the indirect costs have not been counted in the King's College calculations. That being so, there might well be an evidence base that tells us that it will be more expensive. As opposed to saving a little money, it might end up costing the Government more.
Secondly, I wonder whether we might look at the basis of the cost-shunting around Whitehall, which I take very seriously. When cuts are required, there is a tendency in Whitehall departments to do things that deliver the cuts in that department but cause someone else additional cost. That other department tends not to pick up that cost until it has happened and there is suddenly no alternative.
We have had a full and frank debate. Many of us in the Committee think that there is a problem that we need to address in greater detail. It may well prove to be in the interests of the Government to save money by adopting some of the amendments that have been proposed this evening. However, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
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