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Lord McNally: My Lords, it is very difficult debating against the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. He is such a reasonable man who puts forward such reasonable arguments. I sometimes think that surely he must be on the Lib Dem Benches. But no, there he is.
Lord Beecham: Perhaps the Minister should seek treatment for this condition of confusion.
Lord McNally: I asked for the House of Commons Hansard for 1 November. I could have picked quite a few but I shall pick one for the House to catch the flavour. As I have said, I have been faced with such unanimity today. Mr Sadiq Khan said:
"No amount of smoke and mirrors can disguise the fact that, by abolishing indeterminate sentences, he"-
- "is risking the safety of communities in each and every constituency".-[Official Report, Commons, 1/11/11; col. 793.]
You can imagine him banging the Dispatch Box and a growl of "Hear, hear" coming from behind him. That is the difficulty we have in this. Quite frankly, if the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, or perhaps my noble friend, was dishing out awards for political posturing, it would not be to only one side of the House or to this end of the corridor. I am also a little-
Lord Carlile of Berriew: I hesitate to interrupt my noble friend who I know will say that in the spirit of what he said earlier he regards all his Liberal Democrat colleagues in this House as entirely reasonable. But this is a bicameral Parliament. What are we to read into the fact that, as it happens in this House as we debate this important matter, there are seven Liberal Democrats on the Government side of the House and one Conservative Peer, who deserves credit for being here. If the Conservative Party is really committed in the way in which he has explained from that quotation, should its Peers not be here to say so?
Lord McNally: That perhaps is why my noble friend is on the Back Benches rather than enjoying the pleasures of coalition government. He will also know that-
Lord Carlile of Berriew: What is that supposed to mean?
4.45 pm
Lord McNally: I am sure that my noble friend's comments will be noted in the proper places, particularly at reshuffle time.
There will always be debates about whether or not sentences are deterrent. I am not usually in favour of mandatory sentencing and deterrent sentencing, but it is hard to deny that deterrent sentencing could have an effect. It is not just a matter of some barrack-room lawyer; a hardened criminal would know the consequences of reoffending. I share a lot of the concerns about putting declaratory sections into Bills, but sometimes they have their place.
This clause introduces a new mandatory life sentence for an offender who has committed a second very serious sexual or violent offence. Both offences must
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The new mandatory life sentence will affect only those who have committed, on separate occasions, two very serious sexual or violent crimes deserving a custodial sentence of 10 years or more. That is a small number of offenders, but this provision is intended to provide reassurance to the public that very serious repeat offenders of this type can expect to be held indefinitely in prison.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: Perhaps the Box can have the chance to deal with this question. Has any analysis been carried out as to how many people would be liable to a life sentence for committing an offence that is not subject to a life sentence at the moment? It seems that they would be liable to a life sentence if the maximum was only 10 years. Has an analysis been carried out of how many offences in the schedule do not carry a life sentence?
Lord McNally: My Lords, an impact assessment was made and I think they were talking about 20 cases a year.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: That is not quite the point that I am making. It may be that only 20 people would be sentenced to life imprisonment, but would they be sentenced to life imprisonment under this clause, when for the actual offence that they had committed, they could not receive a life sentence? In other words, many serious offences carry life sentences; some do not. I would be grateful for an analysis as to how many would not have a life sentence were it not for this clause.
Lord McNally: As far as I understand it, the second serious offence would carry a life sentence.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: That is not what it says, as I understand it-perhaps the Box can help him.
Lord McNally: That is as I understand it, but I will write to the noble Lord if I am wrong. The other point that has been made-but of course if you try to be reasonable, you are derided-is that the courts are exempted from imposing the mandatory life sentences where they believe it is unjust to do so in all circumstances. It is the policy intention that offenders who have committed two serious offences not carrying life sentences will be liable to the mandatory sentence. However, we cannot at this moment assess the likely numbers that would be affected by that.
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As I said before, we have a sense of schizophrenia about this. Perhaps I may finish with a quote from Sadiq Khan:
"Through their "two strikes" policy, the Government absolve themselves totally of any responsibility to identify the serious, violent offenders who are most likely to reoffend. That should be done at the time when the first sentence is handed down for the commission of a heinous crime".-[Official Report, 1/11/11; col. 796.]
There is not much sense of rehabilitation or reform there. We have to deal with a serious set of reforms and what we get is headline-grabbing attacks on the basis that we are going to let out violent criminals and the rest of it. That is why I hope that some of the unity that was shown earlier about penal reform will resolve itself around support for the Government as we try to manage these proposals through the House.
Lord Clinton-Davis: I am much obliged to the noble Lord. I am totally unconvinced by the arguments put forward here, and not for the first time. When is the Minister going to address the issue that has been raised around the Committee?
Lord McNally: When is the noble Lord going to go down the corridor and talk to Sadiq Khan and the other spokesmen from the Labour Party and engage in a serious debate about penal reform?
Lord Lloyd of Berwick: My Lords, I am grateful for the support of those who have spoken, particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, with her reference to political posturing, which to me seems to be what this clause really is; on this occasion for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for which I am always grateful, and for that of the Official Opposition. But once again it was my noble friend Lady Stern who put her finger on it with those extraordinary statistics that she gave us of the comparison between those serving life sentences in England and Wales and all other countries. We seem to have a thirst for life sentences, and that bears out the only statistic that I gave earlier. I shall say it again: we have more people serving life sentences and indeterminate sentences than the whole of the rest of Europe put together.
179A: Before Schedule 16, insert the following new Schedule-
"SCHEDULEAmendments of the Criminal Justice Act 2003: transitional and consequential provisionsPart 1Transitional provisions1 The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows.
"267A Application of Chapter 6 to pre-4 April 2005 cases
Schedule 20A (which modifies certain provisions of this Chapter as they apply to persons serving a sentence for an offence committed before 4 April 2005) has effect."
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"the 1991 Act" means the Criminal Justice Act 1991;
"the commencement date" means the date on which section (Simplification of existing transitional provisions) of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2011 comes into force.
2 Paragraphs 3 to 9 apply in relation to any person serving a sentence for an offence committed before 4 April 2005, whenever that sentence was imposed (see section (Simplification of existing transitional provisions)(1) of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2011).
3 (1) Any relevant period is to be treated, for the purposes of section 240ZA, as if it were a period for which the offender was remanded in custody in connection with the offence.
(2) "Relevant period" means any period which would (but for the repeal of section 67 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967) be a relevant period within the meaning of that section (reduction of sentences by period spent in custody etc).
4 Section 246 applies as if, in subsection (4)-
(a) the reference in paragraph (a) to section 227 or 228 were a reference to section 85 of the Sentencing Act;
(b) the reference in paragraph (d) to paragraph 9(1)(b) or (c) or 10(1)(b) or (c) of Schedule 8 were a reference to paragraph 4(1)(d) or 5(1)(d) of Schedule 3 to the Sentencing Act;
(c) in paragraph (g)-
(i) the reference to section 246 included a reference to section 34A of the 1991 Act,
(ii) the reference to section 255(1)(a) included a reference to section 38A(1)(a) or 39(1) or (2) of the 1991 Act, and
(iii) the reference to section 255(3) included a reference to section 38A(3) of the 1991 Act;
(d) the references in paragraph (h) to sections 248 and 254 included references to, respectively, sections 36 and 39(1) or (2) of the 1991 Act; and
(e) in paragraph (i), the words from "in the case of" to "relates" were omitted.
5 (1) Where the person has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 Act or under section 60 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 before the commencement date, the person is to be treated as if the release had been under this Chapter.
(2) In particular, the following provisions apply.
(3) A licence under section 34A of the 1991 Act is to be treated as if it were a licence under section 246.
(4) A licence under section 36 of the 1991 Act is to be treated as if it were a licence under section 248.
(5) Any condition of a licence specified under section 37 of the 1991 Act is to have effect as if it were included under section 250 (whether or not the condition is of a kind which could otherwise be included under that section).
(6) Where the licence is, on the commencement date, subject to a suspension under section 38(2) of the 1991 Act, the suspension continues to have effect for the period specified by the court despite the repeal of that section.
(7) A licence under section 40A of the 1991 Act is to be treated as if it were a licence under this Chapter, except that in respect of any failure (before or after the commencement date) to comply with the conditions of the licence, the person is liable to be dealt with in accordance with section 40A(4) to (6) (despite the repeal of that section) and is not liable to be dealt with in any other way.
(8) Sub-paragraph (1) does not affect the duration of the licence.
6 (1) Where a person has been recalled under Part 2 of the 1991 Act before the commencement date, the person is to be treated as if the recall had been under section 254.
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(2) In particular, the following provisions apply.
(3) If the Secretary of State has not referred the person's case to the Board under section 39(4) or 44A of the 1991 Act, the Secretary of State must refer the case under section 255C(4).
(4) If the Secretary of State has referred the person's case to the Board under section 39(4) or 44A of the 1991 Act, that reference is to be treated as if it had been made under section 255C(4).
(5) A determination of a reference under section 39(4) or 44A of the 1991 Act is to be treated as a determination under section 256(1).
(6) If the person is released on licence, the duration of that licence is determined in accordance with section 249 (subject to paragraphs 17, 19 and 26 of Schedule 20B).
7 Rules made by virtue of section 42 of the 1991 Act have effect as if made by virtue of section 257.
8 (1) A person removed from prison under section 46A of the 1991 Act before the commencement date is to be treated as having been removed from prison under section 260.
(2) Section 260 applies as if, in subsection (7)-
(a) the reference to an extended sentence imposed under section 227 or 228 were a reference to an extended sentence imposed under section 85 of the Sentencing Act, and
(b) the reference to the appropriate custodial term determined under section 227 or 228 were a reference to the custodial term determined under section 85.
9 An order made under section 47 of the 1991 Act is to have effect as if it were an order made under section 243.
10 Section 264 applies as if the definition of "custodial period" in subsection (6) included, in relation to an extended sentence imposed under section 85 of the Sentencing Act, one-half of the custodial term determined under that section."
Part 2Consequential amendmentsRepatriation of Prisoners Act 1984 (c. 47)4 In section 2(4)(b)(i) of the Repatriation of Prisoners Act 1984 (power to provide for prisoner to be treated as having been released) for "section 244 or 246" substitute "Chapter 6 of Part 12".
Criminal Justice Act 1991 (c. 53)5 In Schedule 12 to the Criminal Justice Act 1991, omit paragraphs 8 to 13 (transitional provisions relating to the coming into force of Part 2 of that Act).
Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 (c. 43)6 Schedule 1 to the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 (transfer of prisoners within the British Islands) is amended as follows.
7 In paragraph 8 (transfers to Scotland)-
(a) in sub-paragraph (2)(a), after "246 to 264A" insert ", 267A and 267B";
(b) in sub-paragraph (4)(a), for "and 249 to 264A" substitute ", 249 to 264A, 267A and 267B".
8 In paragraph 9(2)(a) and (4)(a) (transfers to Northern Ireland), for "and 254 to 264A" substitute ", 254 to 264A, 267A and 267B".
Extradition Act 2003 (c. 41)9 The Extradition Act 2003 is amended as follows.
10 In section 59 (return of person to serve remainder of sentence), in subsection (11)-
(a) omit paragraph (a);
(b) in paragraph (b), for "section 244" substitute "Chapter 6 of Part 12".
11 In section 132 (return of person to serve remainder of sentence), in subsection (11)-
(a) omit paragraph (a);
(b) in paragraph (b), for "section 244" substitute "Chapter 6 of Part 12".
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12 In section 153B (return of person in pursuance of undertaking), in subsection (10)(a)-
(a) omit sub-paragraph (i);
(b) in sub-paragraph (ii), for "section 244" substitute "Chapter 6 of Part 12".
Criminal Justice Act 2003 (c. 44)13 The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows.
14 In section 240A(1)(a) (crediting of periods of remand on bail), omit the words "committed on or after 4th April 2005".
15 (1) The repeal by section 25 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 of provisions in section 247 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 comes fully into force.
(2) Accordingly, in paragraph 2 of Schedule 2 to the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (Commencement No.2 and Transitional and Savings Provisions) Order 2008 (S.I. 2008/1586), omit "and 25".
16 Omit section 262 and Schedule 20 (prisoners liable to removal from United Kingdom).
17 Omit section 265(1A) (restriction on consecutive sentences for released prisoners).
Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004 (c. 28)18 Omit paragraph 46 of Schedule 10 to the Domestic Violence, Crime and Victims Act 2004.
Police and Justice Act 2006 (c. 48)19 Omit paragraph 33 of Schedule 13 to the Police and Justice Act 2006.
Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (c. 4)20 In the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008, omit-
(a) sections 20(4)(b), 26 to 28, 32 and 33(1), (3), (5) and (6);
(b) paragraph 29(2) to (5) of Schedule 26;
(c) paragraphs 8 and 9 of Schedule 27.
Coroners and Justice Act 2009 (c. 25)21 In the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, omit-
(a) section 145;
(b) paragraph 43 of Schedule 22.
Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (Commencement No.1 and Transitional Provisions) Order 2008 (S.I. 2008/1466)22 Article 3 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (Commencement No.1 and Transitional Provisions) Order 2008 (S.I. 2008/1466) is revoked."
179B: Before Schedule 16, insert the following new Schedule-
"SCHEDULECriminal Justice Act 2003: restatement of transitional provisions1 The Criminal Justice Act 2003 is amended as follows.
2 In section 244 (duty to release prisoners on licence), after subsection (3) insert-
"(4) This section is subject to paragraphs 5, 6, 8, 25 and 28 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases)."
3 In section 247 (release on licence of prisoner serving extended sentence), after subsection (7) insert-
"(8) In its application to a person serving a sentence imposed before 14 July 2008, this section is subject to the modifications set out in paragraph 15 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases)."
4 In section 249 (duration of licence), at the end insert-
"(5) This section is subject to paragraphs 17, 19 and 26 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases)."
5 (1) Section 258 (early release of fine defaulters and contemnors) is amended as follows.
(2) After subsection (2) insert-
"(2A) Subsection (2) is subject to paragraph 35 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases)."
(3) In subsection (3) after "in this section" insert "or in paragraph 35 of Schedule 20B".
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6 In section 260 (early removal of prisoners liable to removal from UK), after subsection (7) insert-
"(8) Paragraphs 36 and 37 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases) make further provision about early removal of certain prisoners."
7 In section 263 (concurrent terms), after subsection (4) insert-
"(5) This section is subject to paragraphs 21, 31 and 32 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases)."
8 In section 264 (consecutive terms), after subsection (7) insert-
"(8) This section is subject to paragraphs 21, 22, 31, 32 and 33 of Schedule 20B (transitional cases)."
9 After section 267A (inserted by Schedule (Amendments of the Criminal Justice Act 2003: transitional and consequential provisions)) insert-
"267B Modification of Chapter 6 in certain transitional cases
Schedule 20B (which modifies this Chapter so as to restate, with minor amendments, the effect of transitional provisions relating to the coming into force of this Chapter) has effect."
10 After Schedule 20A (inserted by Schedule (Amendments of the Criminal Justice Act 2003: transitional and consequential provisions)) insert-
"SCHEDULE 20B Section 267BModifications of Chapter 6 of Part 12 in certain transitional casesPart 1IntroductoryInterpretation1 (1) The following provisions apply for the purposes of this Schedule.
(2) "The commencement date" means the date on which section (Simplification of existing transitional provisions) of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2011 comes into force.
(3) "The 1967 Act" means the Criminal Justice Act 1967.
(4) "The 1991 Act" means the Criminal Justice Act 1991.
(5) A "section 85 extended sentence" means an extended sentence under section 85 of the Sentencing Act and includes (in accordance with paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 11 to that Act) a sentence under section 58 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998.
(6) In relation to a section 85 extended sentence, "the custodial term" and "the extension period" have the meaning given by that section.
(7) References to section 86 of the Sentencing Act include (in accordance with paragraph 1(3) of Schedule 11 to that Act) section 44 of the 1991 Act as originally enacted.
(8) A "1967 Act sentence" is a sentence imposed before 1 October 1992.
(9) A "1991 Act sentence" is a sentence which is-
(a) imposed on or after 1 October 1992 but before 4 April 2005, or
(b) imposed on or after 4 April 2005 but before the commencement date and is either-
(i) imposed in respect of an offence committed before 4 April 2005, or
(ii) for a term of less than 12 months.
(10) A "2003 Act sentence" is a sentence which is-
(a) imposed on or after the commencement date, or
(b) imposed on or after 4 April 2005 but before the commencement date and is both-
(i) imposed in respect of an offence committed on or after 4 April 2005, and
(ii) for a term of 12 months or more.
(11) Where an offence is found to have been committed over a period of two or more days, or at some time during a period of two or more days, it is to be taken for the purposes of this Schedule to have been committed on the last of those days.
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2 The following dates (which are mentioned in this Schedule) are dates on which changes to the law relating to the release and recall of prisoners came into force-
1 October 1992 is the date on which Part 2 of the Criminal Justice Act 1991 came into force;
30 September 1998 is the date on which certain provisions of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force;
4 April 2005 is the date on which this Chapter came into force;
9 June 2008 is the date on which section 26 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 came into force;
14 July 2008 is the date on which certain other provisions of that Act came into force;
2 August 2010 is the date on which section 145 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 came into force.
Part 2Prisoners serving 1991 Act sentences etc3 (1) This Part applies to certain persons serving a 1991 Act sentence.
(2) This Part also applies to a person serving a 2003 Act sentence which is-
(a) a section 85 extended sentence, or
(b) an extended sentence imposed under section 227 or 228 before 14 July 2008.
(3) But this Part does not apply to a person who-
(a) has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 Act,
(b) has been recalled to prison, and
(c) (whether or not having returned to custody in consequence of that recall) is unlawfully at large on the commencement date.
Duty to release on licence at two-thirds of sentence4 (1) This paragraph applies to a person in relation to whom-
(a) all the conditions in sub-paragraph (2) are met, and
(b) the condition in any one or more of sub-paragraphs (3) to (5) is met.
(2) The conditions in this sub-paragraph are that-
(a) the person has been convicted of an offence committed before 4 April 2005,
(b) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment imposed in respect of that offence on or after 1 October 1992 but before the commencement date,
(c) the sentence or (in the case of a section 85 extended sentence) the custodial term is for a term of 4 years or more, and
(d) the person has not previously been released from prison on licence in respect of that sentence.
(3) The condition in this sub-paragraph is that the offence (or one of the offences) in respect of which the sentence was imposed is-
(a) an offence specified in Schedule 15 (specified violent offences and specified sexual offences) as it had effect on 4 April 2005,
(b) an offence under any of sections 11, 12, 15 to 18, 54 and 56 to 63 of the Terrorism Act 2000,
(c) an offence under any of sections 47, 50 and 113 of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001,
(d) an offence under section 12 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956,
(e) an offence of aiding, abetting counselling, procuring or inciting the commission of an offence listed in any of paragraphs (b) to (d), or
(f) an offence of conspiring or attempting to commit an offence listed in any of paragraphs (b) to (d).
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(4) The condition in this sub-paragraph is that the person has served one-half of the sentence or (in the case of a section 85 extended sentence) of the custodial term before 9 June 2008.
(5) The condition in this sub-paragraph is that-
(a) the person is serving the sentence by virtue of having been transferred to the United Kingdom in pursuance of a warrant under section 1 of the Repatriation of Prisoners Act 1984,
(b) the warrant was issued before 9 June 2008, and
(c) the offence (or one of the offences) for which the person is serving the sentence corresponds to murder or to any offence specified in Schedule 15 as it had effect on 4 April 2005.
5 (1) As soon as a person to whom paragraph 4 applies has served two-thirds of the sentence, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to release the person on licence under this paragraph.
(2) If the person is serving a section 85 extended sentence, the reference in sub-paragraph (1) to two-thirds of the sentence is a reference to two-thirds of the custodial term.
(3) Sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) apply in place of section 244 (release on licence of prisoners serving 12 months or more).
Duty to release on direction of Parole Board6 (1) After a person to whom paragraph 4 applies has served one-half of the sentence, the Secretary of State must, if directed to do so by the Board, release the person on licence under this paragraph.
(2) The Board must not give a direction under sub-paragraph (1) unless the Board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for the protection of the public that the person should be confined.
(3) If the person is serving a section 85 extended sentence, the references in this paragraph to one-half of the sentence are references to one-half of the custodial term.
(4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in place of section 244 (release on licence of prisoners serving 12 months or more).
Release on licence at one-half of sentence: section 85 extended sentence prisoners7 (1) This paragraph applies to a person if-
(a) the person has been convicted of an offence committed on or after 30 September 1998 but before 4 April 2005,
(b) the person is serving a section 85 extended sentence in respect of that offence,
(c) the person has not previously been released from prison on licence in respect of that sentence, and
(d) paragraph 4 does not apply to the person.
8 (1) As soon as a person to whom paragraph 7 applies has served one-half of the custodial term, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to release the person on licence under this paragraph.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) applies in place of section 243A or 244, as the case may be (release of prisoners serving less than 12 months, or serving 12 months or more).
Duty to release unconditionally at three-quarters of sentence9 (1) This paragraph applies to a person if-
(a) the person has been convicted of an offence committed before 30 September 1998,
(b) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment imposed in respect of that offence on or after 1 October 1992,
(c) the sentence is for a term of 12 months or more,
(d) the person has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 Act, and
(e) the person has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has not been recalled after that date).
(2) But this paragraph does not apply if the court by which the person was sentenced ordered that section 86 of the Sentencing Act (extension of periods in custody and on licence in the case of certain sexual offences) should apply.
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10 As soon as a person to whom paragraph 9 applies would (but for the earlier release) have served three-quarters of the sentence, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to release the person unconditionally.
Duty to release on licence at three-quarters of sentence11 (1) This paragraph applies to a person who-
(a) has been convicted of an offence committed on or after 30 September 1998 but before 4 April 2005,
(b) is serving a sentence of imprisonment for a term of 12 months or more imposed in respect of that offence,
(c) has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 Act, and
(d) has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has not been recalled after that date).
(2) But this paragraph does not apply if the person has been released and recalled more than once.
(3) Nor does this paragraph apply if the sentence is a section 85 extended sentence (paragraph 13 applying to such a case instead).
12 As soon as a person to whom paragraph 11 applies would (but for the earlier release) have served three-quarters of the sentence, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to release the person on licence.
Release on licence: re-release of section 85 extended sentence prisoners13 (1) This paragraph applies to a person who-
(a) has been convicted of an offence committed on or after 30 September 1998 but before 4 April 2005,
(b) is serving a section 85 extended sentence imposed in respect of that offence,
(c) has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 Act, and
(d) has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has not been recalled after that date).
(2) But this paragraph does not apply if the person has been released and recalled more than once.
14 (1) If a person to whom paragraph 13 applies is serving a sentence with a custodial term of less than 12 months, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to release the person on licence as soon as the person would (but for the earlier release) have served the period found by adding-
(a) one-half of the custodial term, and
(b) the extension period.
(2) If a person to whom paragraph 13 applies is serving a sentence with a custodial term of 12 months or more, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to release the person on licence as soon as the person would (but for the earlier release) have served the period found by adding-
(a) three-quarters of the custodial term, and
(b) the extension period.
Release of section 227 or 228 extended sentence prisoners: Parole Board direction15 (1) This paragraph applies to a person ("P") who is serving an extended sentence under imposed section 227 or 228 before 14 July 2008.
(2) Section 247 (release of prisoner on licence) applies to P with the following modifications.
(3) The Secretary of State must not release P under subsection (2) of that section unless the Board has directed P's release under that subsection.
(4) The Board must not give a direction under sub-paragraph (3) unless the Board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for the protection of the public that the person should be confined.
(5) As soon as P has served the appropriate custodial term, the Secretary of State must release P on licence, unless P has previously been recalled under section 254.
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16 (1) This paragraph applies to a person to whom paragraph 4 applies.
(2) This paragraph also applies to a person if-
(a) the person has been convicted of an offence committed before 4 April 2005,
(b) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment imposed in respect of that offence on or after 1 October 1992 but before the commencement date,
(c) that sentence is for a term of 12 months or more but less than 4 years, and
(d) the person has not previously been released from prison on licence in respect of that sentence.
(3) This paragraph also applies to a person if-
(a) the person has been convicted of an offence committed before 4 April 2005,
(b) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment imposed in respect of that offence on or after 1 October 1992,
(c) that sentence is for a term of 12 months or more,
(d) the person has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 Act, and
(e) the person has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has not been recalled after that date).
(4) But this paragraph does not apply if the person has been released and recalled more than once.
(5) Nor does this paragraph apply if-
(a) the person is serving a section 85 extended sentence, or
(b) the court by which the person was sentenced ordered that section 86 of the Sentencing Act (extension of periods in custody and on licence in the case of certain sexual offences) should apply.
(a) released under section 34A of the 1991 Act or section 246 (home detention curfew), and
(b) recalled under section 38A(1)(b) of the 1991 Act or section 255(1)(b) (no longer possible to monitor curfew),
the release and recall are to be disregarded for the purposes of this paragraph.
17 (1) Where a person to whom paragraph 16 applies is released on licence under section 244 or paragraph 5 or 6, the licence shall remain in force until the date on which the person would (but for the release) have served three-quarters of the sentence.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) is subject to any revocation under section 254.
(3) Sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) apply in place of section 249 (duration of licence).
Period for which licence to remain in force: section 85 extended sentence prisoners18 This paragraph applies to a person who-
(a) has been convicted of an offence committed on or after 30 September 1998 but before 4 April 2005,
(b) is serving a section 85 extended sentence imposed in respect of that offence, and
(c) has not previously been released from prison on licence in respect of that sentence.
19 (1) Where a person to whom paragraph 18 applies is released on licence and the custodial term is less than 12 months, the licence shall remain in force until the end of the period found by adding-
(a) one-half of the custodial term, and
(b) the extension period.
(2) Where a person to whom paragraph 18 applies is released on licence and the custodial term is 12 months or more, the licence shall remain in force until the end of the period found by adding-
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(a) three-quarters of the custodial term, and
(b) the extension period.
(3) Sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) are subject to any revocation under section 254.
(4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in place of section 249 (duration of licence).
Concurrent or consecutive terms20 Paragraphs 21 and 22 apply where a person ("P") is serving two or more sentences of imprisonment imposed on or after 1 October 1992 and-
(a) the sentences were passed on the same occasion, or
(b) where they were passed on different occasions, the person has not been released under Part 2 of the 1991 Act or under this Chapter at any time during the period beginning with the first and ending with the last of those occasions.
21 (1) This paragraph applies if each of the sentences is a 1991 Act sentence.
(2) Sections 263 and 264 (consecutive and concurrent terms) do not apply in relation to the sentences.
(3) For the purposes of any reference in this Chapter, however expressed, to the term of imprisonment to which P has been sentenced or which, or part of which, P has served, the terms are to be treated as a single term.
(4) If one or more of the sentences is a section 85 extended sentence-
(a) for the purpose of determining the single term mentioned in sub-paragraph (3), the extension period or periods is or are to be disregarded, and
(b) the period for which P is to be on licence in respect of the single term is to be increased in accordance with sub-paragraph (5).
(5) That period is to be increased-
(a) if only one of the sentences is a section 85 extended sentence, by the extension period;
(b) if there is more than one such sentence and they are wholly or partly concurrent, by the longest of the extension periods;
(c) if there is more than one such sentence and they are consecutive, by the aggregate of the extension periods.
22 (1) This paragraph applies where two or more sentences are to be served consecutively on each other and-
(a) one or more of those sentences is a 1991 Act sentence, and
(b) one or more of them is a 2003 Act sentence.
(2) Section 264 does not affect the length of the period which P must serve in prison in respect of the 1991 Act sentence or sentences.
(3) Nothing in this Chapter requires the Secretary of State to release P until P has served a period equal in length to the aggregate of the length of the periods which P must serve in relation to each of the sentences mentioned in sub-paragraph (1).
(4) If P is also serving one or more 1967 Act sentences, paragraphs 32 and 33 apply instead of this paragraph.
Part 3Prisoners serving 1967 Act sentences23 (1) This Part applies to certain persons serving a 1967 Act sentence.
(2) But this Part does not apply to a person who-
(a) has been released on licence,
(b) has been recalled to prison, and
(c) (whether or not having returned to custody in consequence of that recall) is unlawfully at large on the commencement date.
(3) In this Part, references to release under Part 2 of the 1991 Act include release under section 60 of the 1967 Act.
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24 (1) This paragraph applies to a person if-
(a) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment imposed before 1 October 1992,
(b) the sentence is for a term of more than 12 months, and
(c) the person has not previously been released from prison on licence in respect of that sentence.
(2) This paragraph also applies to a person if-
(a) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment imposed before 1 October 1992,
(b) the sentence is for a term of more than 12 months,
(c) the person has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 Act, and
(d) the person has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has not been recalled after that date).
(3) But this paragraph does not apply if, on the passing of the sentence, an extended sentence certificate was issued (see paragraph 27).
(a) released under section 34A of the 1991 Act or section 246 (home detention curfew), and
(b) recalled under section 38A(1)(b) of the 1991 Act or section 255(1)(b) (no longer possible to monitor curfew),
the release and recall are to be disregarded for the purposes of this paragraph.
25 (1) It is the duty of the Secretary of State to release a person unconditionally under this paragraph-
(a) in the case of a person falling within paragraph 24(1), as soon as the person has served two-thirds of the sentence;
(b) in the case of a person falling within paragraph 24(2), as soon as the person would (but for the earlier release) have served two-thirds of the sentence.
(2) After a person falling within paragraph 24(1) has served one-third of the sentence or six months, whichever is longer, the Secretary of State must, if directed to do so by the Board, release the person on licence under this paragraph.
(3) The Board must not give a direction under sub-paragraph (2) unless the Board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for the protection of the public that the person should be confined.
(4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in place of section 244 (release on licence of prisoners serving 12 months or more).
26 (1) Where a person to whom paragraph 24 applies is released on licence under paragraph 25, the licence shall remain in force until the date on which the person would (but for the release) have served two-thirds of the sentence.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) is subject to any revocation under section 254.
(3) Sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) apply in place of section 249 (duration of licence).
Extended sentence of more than 12 months imposed before 1 October 199227 (1) This paragraph applies to a person if-
(a) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment imposed before 1 October 1992,
(b) the sentence is for a term of more than 12 months,
(c) on the passing of the sentence an extended sentence certificate was issued, and
(d) the person has not previously been released from prison on licence in respect of that sentence.
(2) This paragraph also applies to a person if-
(a) the person is serving a sentence of imprisonment imposed before 1 October 1992,
(b) the sentence is for a term of more than 12 months,
(c) on the passing of the sentence an extended sentence certificate was issued,
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(d) the person has been released on licence under Part 2 of the 1991 Act, and
(e) the person has been recalled before 14 July 2008 (and has not been recalled after that date).
(3) In this paragraph "extended sentence certificate" means a certificate was issued under section 28 of the Powers of Criminal Courts Act 1973 (punishment of persistent offenders) stating that an extended term of imprisonment was imposed on the person under that section.
28 (1) It is the duty of the Secretary of State to release a person to whom paragraph 27 applies on licence under this paragraph-
(a) in the case of a person falling within paragraph 27(1), as soon as the person has served two-thirds of the sentence;
(b) in the case of a person falling within paragraph 27(2), as soon as the person would (but for the earlier release) have served two-thirds of the sentence.
(2) After a person falling within paragraph 27(1) has served one-third of the sentence or six months, whichever is longer, the Secretary of State must, if directed to do so by the Board, release the person on licence under this paragraph.
(3) The Board must not give a direction under sub-paragraph (2) unless the Board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for the protection of the public that the person should be confined.
(4) Sub-paragraphs (1) to (3) apply in place of section 244 (release on licence of prisoners serving twelve months or more).
Additional days29 (1) Prison rules made by virtue of section 257 may include provision for applying any provisions of this Chapter, in relation to any person falling within sub-paragraph (2), as if the person had been awarded such number of additional days as may be determined by or under the rules.
(2) A person falls within this sub-paragraph if-
(a) the person was released on licence under section 60 of the 1967 Act before 1 October 1992 and the licence was in force on that date, or
(b) the person was, on that date, serving a custodial sentence,
and (in either case) the person has forfeited any remission of the sentence.
Concurrent or consecutive terms30 Paragraphs 31 to 33 apply where a person ("P") is serving two or more sentences of imprisonment and-
(a) the sentences were passed on the same occasion, or
(b) where they were passed on different occasions, the person has not been released under Part 2 of the 1991 Act or under this Chapter at any time during the period beginning with the first and ending with the last of those occasions.
31 (1) This paragraph applies where each of the sentences is a 1967 Act sentence.
(2) Sections 263 and 264 (consecutive and concurrent terms) do not apply in relation to the sentences.
(3) For the purposes of any reference in this Chapter, however expressed, to the term of imprisonment to which P has been sentenced or which, or part of which, P has served, the terms are to be treated as a single term.
32 (1) This paragraph applies where-
(a) one or more of the sentences is a 1967 Act sentence, and
(b) one or more of them is a 1991 Act sentence.
(2) Sections 263 and 264 (consecutive and concurrent terms) do not apply in relation to the sentences mentioned in sub-paragraph (1).
(3) For the purposes of any reference in this Chapter, however expressed, to the term of imprisonment to which P has been sentenced or which, or part of which, P has served-
(a) the terms mentioned in sub-paragraph (1) are to be treated as a single term, and
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(b) that single term is to be treated as if it were a 1967 Act sentence.
(4) If one or more of the sentences is a section 85 extended sentence-
(a) for the purpose of determining the single term mentioned in sub-paragraph (3), the extension period or periods is or are to be disregarded, and
(b) the period for which P is to be on licence in respect of the single term is to be increased in accordance with sub-paragraph (5).
(5) That period is to be increased-
(a) if only one of the sentences is a section 85 extended sentence, by the extension period;
(b) if there is more than one such sentence and they are wholly or partly concurrent, by the longest of the extension periods;
(c) if there is more than one such sentence and they are consecutive, by the aggregate of the extension periods.
(6) If P is also serving a 2003 Act sentence, sub-paragraph (3) is to be applied before the period mentioned in section 263(2)(c) (concurrent terms) or paragraph 33(3) (consecutive terms) is calculated.
33 (1) This paragraph applies where two or more sentences are to be served consecutively on each other and-
(a) one or more of those sentences is a 1967 Act sentence, and
(b) one or more of them is a 2003 Act sentence.
(2) Section 264 does not affect the length of the period which P must serve in prison in respect of the 1967 Act sentence or sentences.
(3) Nothing in this Chapter requires the Secretary of State to release P until P has served a period equal in length to the aggregate of the length of the periods which P must serve in relation to each of the sentences mentioned in sub-paragraph (1).
Part 4Provisions applying generallyLicence conditions34 (1) This paragraph applies to any licence (a "Parole Board licence") which falls within sub-paragraph (2) or (3).
(2) A licence falls within this sub-paragraph if-
(a) it is or was granted to a person ("P") on P's release (at any time) on the recommendation or direction of the Board, and
(b) P has not been released otherwise than on such a recommendation or direction.
(3) A licence falls within this sub-paragraph if-
(a) it is or was granted to a person ("P") on P's release (at any time), and
(b) condition A or condition B is met.
(4) Condition A is that, before 2 August 2010, the Board exercised the function under section 37(5) of the 1991 Act of making recommendations as to any condition to be included or inserted as a condition in a licence granted to P (including by making a recommendation that no condition should be included in such a licence).
(5) Condition B is that, before 2 August 2010-
(a) P was released on licence under section 33(2), (3) or (3A) or 35(1) of the 1991 Act, and
(b) the Board exercised the function under section 37(5) of that Act of-
(i) making recommendations as to the inclusion or insertion of a condition in a licence granted to P (including by making a recommendation that no condition should be included in such a licence), or
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(ii) making recommendations as to the variation or cancellation of any such condition (including a recommendation that the condition should not be varied or cancelled).
(6) The Secretary of State must not-
(a) include on release, or subsequently insert, a condition in a Parole Board licence, or
(b) vary or cancel any such condition,
except in accordance with directions of the Board.
Fine defaulters and contemnors35 (1) This paragraph applies to any person if-
(a) the person has been committed to prison or to be detained under section 108 of the Sentencing Act-
(i) in default of payment of a sum adjudged to be paid by a conviction, or
(ii) for contempt of court or any kindred offence,
(b) the person was so committed or detained before 4 April 2005, and
(c) the term for which the person was committed or detained is 12 months or more.
(2) As soon as a person to whom this paragraph applies has served two-thirds of the term, it is the duty of the Secretary of State to release the person unconditionally.
(3) Sub-paragraph (2) applies in place of section 258(2) (early release of fine defaulters and contemnors).
Early removal of prisoners liable to removal from UK36 (1) This paragraph applies to any person who-
(a) has served one-half of a sentence of imprisonment, and
(b) has not been released on licence under this Chapter.
(2) The reference in sub-paragraph (1)(a) to one-half of a sentence is-
(a) in the case of a section 85 extended sentence, a reference to one-half of the custodial term;
(b) in the case of an extended sentence imposed under section 227 or 228, a reference to one-half of the appropriate custodial term.
37 (1) If a person to whom paragraph 36 applies-
(a) is liable to removal from the United Kingdom, and
(b) has not been removed from prison under section 260 during the period mentioned in subsection (1) of that section,
the Secretary of State may remove the person from prison under that section at any time after the end of that period.
(2) Sub-paragraph (1) applies whether or not the Board has directed the person's release under paragraph 6, 15, 25 or 28.""
Amendments 179A and 179B agreed.
Clause 116 : New extended sentences: release on licence etc
Amendments 179BZA to 179BZD not moved.
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Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I can assure my noble friend the Minister that this is a reasonable amendment from a reasonable Liberal Democrat.
The purpose of the amendment is twofold. It would retain the current position whereby prisoners serving extended sentences are released after serving half their sentence, but it would also give the Minister an opportunity to explain the reasoning behind the provision in the Bill that offenders with extended sentences should in future have to serve two-thirds of the custodial term in custody before release compared with serving half the term, as they do at present.
Up to now, the point of an extended sentence has not been to increase the period that offenders spend in custody. Extended sentences are intended to make sure that, when offenders who pose a risk to the public are released, they are subject to a longer period than usual of post-release supervision on licence. This means that they are subject to restrictive conditions and controls at the same time as being provided with constructive, rehabilitative help. If offenders breach a condition on their licence, they can be recalled to prison. It is a very useful provision that means that society maintains control over the offender's behaviour for a long period.
However, let me say where I see the anomalies. First, the Bill increases the time that an offender given an extended sentence spends in prison. This means that the time that he or she spends under supervision will be correspondingly reduced, which does not make much sense. Surely supervision is an essential element for the rehabilitation of offenders. The second anomaly is that, as the Bill stands, a court wishing to impose an extended period of post-release supervision will be able to do so only if it passes a sentence that also increases the length of time spent in custody before release. My noble friend must have an explanation as to why this provision is necessary.
If a judge does not want to increase the time that an offender spends in prison but wants to make sure that he or she has an extended period of supervision on release, why should they not be able to order this as they can under the current provisions for extended sentences?
If the Government are not willing to leave the release point at half the sentence as at present, will my noble friend agree to consider giving courts discretion over the issue? I am sure that this matter can be looked at before Report. In essence, will my noble friend consider amending the Bill so that a court can specify that the offender must serve either half or two-thirds of the sentence in custody depending on the circumstances of the individual case? The Minister and I are agreed on the final outcome that we all desire. Surely my formula will offer this. I beg to move.
Lord Beecham: Perhaps the Minister could indicate what assessment has been made of the effect of the new extended sentence provision on prisoner numbers and the time that prisoners will spend in custody, as well as the cost. In so far as the indeterminate sentence will, one hopes, reduce numbers when various changes have been made, this measure is likely, like the mandatory provision, to drive up both numbers and costs. Has an
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Lord McNally: My Lords, perhaps I may clarify the point raised by my noble friend Lord Dholakia. The two-thirds release point applies only to the new extended sentence. The court must specify both the custodial term and an extended licence period when it imposes an extended sentence. The offender is released or can apply for release at the two-thirds point of the custodial term. The extended licence will start when the custodial term is concluded, so offenders will receive an appropriate licence period regardless of the point during the custodial term at which they are released. I listened to my noble friend's idea about discretion. This is not something that courts would have discretion on. They will decide on the appropriate custodial term plus an appropriate extended licence. Yet, as always with suggestions from my noble friend, I will ponder this one between now and Report.
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The impact assessment of our reforms anticipated that, in the long term, 2,500 fewer prison places are projected than in the current statute. That of course presumes that we will make progress in clearing the IPP numbers. As we heard, there have been numerous issues with IPP sentences, and we have proposed a replacement regime. A key element of that regime is the new extended determinate sentence-the EDS-for dangerous offenders. This sentence will apply where an offender commits a sexual or violent offence that merits four years' imprisonment or more, or has very serious previous offending, as with the current IPPs and EPPs, and the court finds that he is dangerous. The court will set a custodial term, some of which may be served on licence, and also a further extended period of licence set by the court. The offender will always serve at least two-thirds of the custodial term in prison. In the most serious cases, release will not be automatic: the offender will have to apply to the Parole Board for release. This may mean that they stay inside until the end of the term.
My noble friend Lord Dholakia proposed that the minimum time in prison that offenders on the new extended sentence should serve is one half of the custodial term rather than the two-thirds that the Bill provides for. It is true that the current extended sentence has release at the halfway point, as do ordinary determinate sentences. Headline sentences should be equivalent to ordinary determinate sentences, whereas an IPP tariff is half the equivalent determinate sentence. These offenders will have a longer minimum time in prison than they would had they received an IPP or ordinary determinate sentence. However, in June last year the Government committed to introducing a tougher determinate sentencing regime to replace IPPs.
A key part of that tougher regime is that those on public protection sentences, now that they are no longer liable to receive IPP sentences, will spend more
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We will also step up rehabilitative support for dangerous offenders to help them to progress to release as soon as it is appropriate. We are introducing compulsory intervention plans for these offenders while they are in prison so that they are supported to change their ways and rehabilitate themselves. Sentence plans will include appropriate interventions, assessed as necessary, to address the risk that the offender presents. Offenders who engage with these requirements should be able to demonstrate reduced risk. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Beecham: My Lords, on a point of clarification, the Minister referred to the impact assessment disclosing that 2,500 fewer people would be in prison. Does that relate to the overall package or to this particular amendment? That was the point that I was raising.
Lord McNally: It relates to the overall package and, in that wonderful save-all term, the long term. As we are already seeing, predicting prison numbers is not an exact science.
Lord Beecham: Perhaps not now, but could the Minister advise me on the implications of this amendment in terms of numbers, as opposed to the generality to which he has referred?
Lord McNally: I do not have a specific number, but I will write to the noble Lord and make it available to the House.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Minister for the explanation that he offered. The purpose of my amendment is not to dwell too much on whether it is half or two-thirds of the sentence; all I care about is the need to look carefully at whether the supervision period is affected by the decision. I would be very grateful if the Minister could write to me before Report. It may be that his explanation will suffice in this matter. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Clause 117 : Power to change test for release on licence of certain prisoners
179C: Clause 117, page 96, line 3, leave out "an IPP prisoner or an extended sentence prisoner" and insert "a discretionary release prisoner"
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Lord McNally: My Lords, if Clause 117 is to stand part of the Bill, Amendments 179C to 179F will ensure that the Secretary of State's power to amend by order the release test that the Parole Board must follow when considering the release of prisoners applies consistently to all categories of determinate sentence prisoner whose release is determined by the board. Currently, the clause applies to the release test for IPP and extended sentence prisoners but there are some other types of determinate sentence which also include a period of parole eligibility and are subject to the same release test. We think the order-making power to change the test should apply equally in those cases. These amendments therefore propose to extend the order-making power to the other categories of determinate sentence to which it does not currently apply. These are: first, the 1991 Act prisoners serving four years or more who are parole eligible between the half and two-thirds points of sentence; and, secondly, the 2003 Act extended sentences imposed before 14 July 2008, when release between the half and end points of the custodial period is at the discretion of the Parole Board. This is simply about ensuring the order-making power in this clause is applied consistently to all determinate sentences when the same release test is used. I beg to move.
Lord Thomas of Gresford: Your Lordships will recall that in connection with an earlier amendment I referred to the existing test-which will continue to apply under this Bill-for the Parole Board to apply in considering whether a person should be released. The existing test is that the board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for the protection of the public that the prisoner should be confined. Your Lordships will recall the criticisms that I made of that. In his reply, the Minister said that Clause 117 gives power to the Lord Chancellor to change that test. I am a little bit puzzled, and I ask my noble friend to explain why that power to change the test is in there. Furthermore, I am very pleased that it is, because I think that the present test is neither fair nor just. The power to change the test is in subsection (1), where,
- "the Parole Board ... must direct the prisoner's release if it is satisfied that conditions specified in the order are met, or ... must do so unless it is satisfied that conditions specified in the order are met".
I know that my noble friend, as he earlier confessed, is a follower of Blackpool football club, but at the weekend he may have had the opportunity of watching the Wales versus Ireland rugby match at Lansdowne Road. An incident there perfectly illustrates the situation. There was a pile-up over the line and the referee, instead of making the decision and awarding the try which Wales had so clearly scored, called in the TMO and said, "Has the try been scored-yes or no?". Immediately, that illustrious and brilliant commentator Jonathan Davies, a brilliant player in his own day, said, "He's asking the wrong question. The question he should ask is: 'Is there any reason why this try should not be awarded?'". By asking it as, "Has he scored it-yes or no?", the referee was pushing the decision over to the TMO; but if he were to ask the second question, he would be taking responsibility by saying, "I am going to award the try unless you tell me that there is a reason why I should not".
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Applying the same approach to the release of a prisoner, the Parole Board should not be asking whether the prisoner has complied with this or that test; it should be asking: "Is there any reason why we should not release this prisoner? Is evidence being produced for us to look at in reaching a conclusion on whether this prisoner can be safely returned to the community?".
That is the reason why I support Clause 117-in the hope that the second alternative, in subsection (1)(b), is adopted, and that the Lord Chancellor will then very quickly see the necessity of changing the Parole Board's test to one that is far fairer: "Is there any reason why, after serving the period of the tariff that the judge has imposed"-which is supposed to be what the judge would have awarded by way of a sentence had he taken that course-"this person should not be released?". I commend this clause and suggest that the power should be exercised very quickly.
Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I gave notice of my intention to oppose that the clause stand part in order to be consistent with my now failed hope that the Government would accept the earlier amendments on the IPP. As they did not, it is obviously irrelevant now to say that the clause should not stand part. I shall therefore not oppose it. For all the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, outlined, the clause contains some very important measures which provide the Secretary of State with tools to bring about many of the things that we hope will happen to the IPP sentence.
Lord Beecham: My Lords, this amendment is perfectly sensible. Before we get to Third Reading it would perhaps be helpful, if it is at all possible, to have a clear indication of how the Government propose to proceed. Presumably it will not be long before the affirmative resolution procedure is put into place once the Bill is enacted, and that might just allay some doubts around the House and outside it about what is likely to happen. Subject to that, we certainly take the view that it is sensible to proceed on the lines set out in the amendment.
Lord McNally: I am grateful for that. As to what I was watching on Saturday afternoon, being a gentle soul, I take the view that rugby is a gentleman's game played by hooligans. I am not as keen on watching it-the violence is too much. I am glad, however, that everybody has noticed the point of Clause 117. It goes back to what I said before in that analogy about disarming the time-bomb. We need a little flexibility and a chance to see how the present probation rules apply, but this gives the Secretary of State the opportunity to adjust what we are doing in the light of the experience of the overall reform of IPP. I am therefore grateful for the support from all sides of the House and I hope that Clause 117 will stand part of the Bill.
179D: Clause 117, page 96, line 8, at end insert-
"(1A) "Discretionary release prisoner" means-
(a) an IPP prisoner,
(b) an extended sentence prisoner, or
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(c) a person to whom paragraph 4, 15, 24 or 27 of Schedule 20B to the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (determinate sentence prisoners subject to transitional provisions) applies."
179E: Clause 117, page 96, line 13, at end insert-
"( ) amend paragraph 6, 15, 25 or 28 of Schedule 20B to the Criminal Justice Act 2003 (release on licence of determinate sentence prisoners subject to transitional provisions),"
179F: Clause 117, page 96, line 18, leave out "IPP prisoners and extended sentence prisoners" and insert "each of the categories of discretionary release prisoner mentioned in subsection (1A)"
Amendments 179D to 179F agreed.
Clause 117, as amended, agreed.
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180A: After Clause 117, insert the following new Clause-
"Disclosure of information about convictions etc. of violent abusers to members of the public
(1) The responsible authority for each area must, in the course of discharging its functions under arrangements established under section 325 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, consider whether to disclose information in its possession about the relevant previous convictions of any violent abuser managed by it to any person deemed by the authority to be at risk.
(2) In the case mentioned in subsection (3) there is a presumption that the responsible authority should disclose information in its possession about the relevant previous convictions of the offender to the particular member of the public.
(3) The case is where the responsible authority for the area has reasonable cause to believe that-
(a) a serial violent abuser managed by it poses a risk in that or any other area of causing serious harm to a particular at risk person, and
(b) disclosure of information about the relevant previous conviction of the offender to the particular member of the public is necessary for the purpose of protecting the at risk person from serious harm caused by the offender.
(4) The presumption under subsection (2) arises if the person to whom the information is disclosed requests the disclosure.
(5) Where the responsible authority makes a disclosure under this section-
(a) it may disclose such information about the relevant previous convictions of the offender as it considers appropriate to disclose to the member of the public concerned, and
(b) it may impose conditions for preventing the member of public concerned from disclosing the information to any other persons.
(6) Any disclosure under this section must be made as soon as is reasonably practical having regard to all the circumstances.
(7) The responsible authority for each area must compile and maintain a record about the decisions it makes in relation to the discharge of its functions under this section.
(8) The record must include the following information-
(a) the reasons for making a decision to disclose information under this section,
(b) the reasons for making a decision not to disclose information under this section, and
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(c) the information which is disclosed under this section, any conditions imposed in relation to its further disclosure and the name and address of the person to whom it is disclosed.
(9) Nothing in this section requires or authorises the making of a disclosure which contravenes the Data Protection Act 1998.
(10) This section is not to be taken as affecting any power of any person to disclose any information about a violent abuser."
Baroness Gale: My Lords, this amendment and Amendment 180B are tabled in the names of my noble friends Lady Royall of Blaisdon, Lord Bach and Lord Beecham.
I begin by paying tribute to Michael and Adam Brown. It is as a result of their campaign that we are here today and are debating this important issue in order that we can protect vulnerable women and men from the very small percentage of people who think that they have a right to hurt the partners they claim to love. In 2007 Michael's daughter and Adam's sister, Clare Wood, a resident of Salford, began a relationship with George Appleton, a man she had met through the social networking website Facebook. A year later she ended the relationship but became the target of a sustained campaign of violence and harassment from Appleton. Over the next six months Appleton stalked Clare, sexually assaulted her and threatened to kill her. Then in February 2009 he strangled her, killing her before setting her body on fire. After a six-day manhunt he fled to an abandoned pub in Salford and hanged himself.
Appleton had a long background of violence against women, including repeated allegations and convictions of harassment, threats to kill, and kidnapping one of his ex-girlfriends at knifepoint. Clare had no way of knowing this. Had she had that information, it could have saved her life. I think we would all agree that this is a horrifying story.
My right honourable friend Hazel Blears, MP for Salford, has advocated for this change of law and worked on this amendment, as Michael Brown is a constituent of hers. We need to change the law urgently to save lives.
At the inquest into Clare's death, the coroner made the following recommendation:
"Subject to appropriate risk assessment and safeguard, I recommend that consideration should be given to the disclosure of such convictions and their circumstances to potential victims in order that they can make informed choices about matters affecting their safety and that of their children".
Since Clare's death, her father Michael Brown and brother Adam have campaigned for a change in the law to enact precisely the coroner's recommendations to give women and men at risk of domestic violence the right to know of any threat that they face. The Respect & Protect: Clare's Law campaign calls for women and men to be given the right to know. It has received cross-party support and has been backed by Fabulous magazine and Key 103 radio.
In 2009 a report commissioned by ACPO and compiled by Chief Constable Brian Moore of Wiltshire Police advocated the creation of a right to know, but by the creation of a positive duty on the police proactively to disclose information. This is not just a compassionate issue but one with serious public order, health and
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The public support this initiative. Polling conducted by Fabulous magazine in the summer of 2011 found that 91 per cent of women agree that they should be given the right to know whether their partner has a history of domestic violence; 84 per cent think that such a change in the law could save lives; and 77 per cent would consider leaving their partner if they found that he had history of abuse.
On 25 October 2011, the Home Office launched a consultation on the introduction of a domestic violence disclosure scheme. This followed a meeting between the Home Secretary, Theresa May, Michael Brown and my right honourable friend Hazel Blears. The consultation paper established the three following options: to continue current arrangements under the existing law; to create a "right to ask" national disclosure scheme; and to create a "right to know" national disclosure scheme. On 27 October 2011, Hazel Blears MP tabled a new clause to the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill that would have introduced Clare's law. The new clause was based on the legal framework established by Sarah's law, which created a disclosure law for paedophiles living within a locality. Therefore, while the Home Secretary's consultation on Clare's law, which has just ended, is welcome, for the law to be changed, legislation surrounding crime and justice needs to be passed. The passage of the Bill through Parliament provides a legislative vehicle to which the change can be attached. At the moment, while there is some common law provision for disclosure, it is unclear and needs clarification. The Clare's law proposal aims to empower men and women by giving them the right to request this information. A codification of the law will make it easier for men and women to make a request, and provide clearer guidance to the agencies on their roles and responsibilities.
The Hazel Blears clause represents the second option in the consultation. The first option does not offer a change to the current situation and the third creates obligations for the police that might be difficult for them to meet. The second option-a right to ask-gives men and women the opportunity to make a request without putting the police in the position of having to make a disclosure or risk negligence claims. Any change in the law needs a legislative vehicle. The passage of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill offers an opportunity to change the law. As this matter relates to crime and security, any change must
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Under the consultation put forward by the Government-the second option-a four-step process will take place. After an initial enquiry by A to the police, the police undertake an initial check on the police national database to identify whether any information is held on B. The police then meet A face-to-face to confirm their identity and that of B, to confirm the relationship between them, and to enable A to complete a formal application for disclosure. The police will then conduct full checks on the police database systems to inform a risk assessment for A. The police refer information about B to an appropriate multi-agency setting, probably a multi-agency risk assessment conference, which would then make a decision on whether to disclose the information to A. Such a decision would be informed by the risk assessment and whether appropriate safety measures could be put in place for the applicant. If disclosure was approved, it would be made by the police with an independent domestic violence adviser present to provide support to A, if required.
The introduction of the police national database in 2011 offers the opportunity easily to identify serial perpetrators of domestic violence. The PND gives police the ability to create national markers, such as a domestic abuse serial perpetrator marker, which could flag up prolific and dangerous subjects operating across England, Wales and Northern Ireland. This is a very important subject. I, Hazel Blears and, of course, Michael and Adam Brown, are thankful that we are able to debate this matter today. Debate was prevented in another place as, due to the timetabling on Report, this amendment was not reached.
When can the Government's response to the consultation be expected? What was the weight of opinion in the replies? I trust the Minister can give an assurance that the Government will support this amendment to bring about Clare's law. I can assure him that we would welcome further discussions with him, if required, to ensure a positive outcome which would do so much to provide a safety net for these people. I look forward to hearing a positive response from him on this matter. I beg to move.
Lord McNally: My Lords, earlier today we gave support to Jane's law. The noble Baroness referred to Sarah's law. Now we are discussing Clare's law. Those all stem from tragedies that have befallen families. The measure may be viewed as a case of slamming the stable door but we are trying to learn lessons from those tragedies and to give the families concerned at least the comfort of knowing that the lessons we have learnt will save others in the future. Therefore, I assure the noble Baroness that we have great sympathy with this proposal. We pay tribute to the campaign that Hazel Blears, the Member for Salford and Eccles, has pursued in co-operation with Clare's family, and her work in tabling this amendment in the other place.
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As the noble Baroness explained, the amendment would place a duty on responsible authorities such as the police, probation and Prison Service to consider disclosing information held in their possession about the relevant previous convictions of any violent abuser to any person deemed by the responsible authority to be at risk. The amendment is born of the circumstances referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, of the tragic murder of Clare Wood by her ex-boyfriend. Noble Lords will know that the Government have been considering this issue very carefully. The Government are committed to ending violence against women and girls. The fact that approximately two people are killed by their current or former partner each week underlines how serious this issue is, and we are committed to looking at new ways of protecting victims.
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However, disclosing information raises serious and complex questions about the appropriate circumstances in which information could be disclosed, particularly for the continued safety of a potential victim. As the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, explained, the Home Secretary launched a consultation so that everyone with an interest or concern could express their views to the Government and the Home Office. The Home Office is currently considering the 259 responses that have so far been received to that consultation.
As the noble Baroness explained, the options set out in the consultation included a right to know, which is the spirit of the amendment, and a right to ask, which could be modelled successfully on Sarah's law-the child sex offender disclosure scheme. In considering the options, the Government's paramount duty is the safety of the potential victim but, as the noble Baroness demonstrated in presenting her case, the options are more complex than might be thought at first blush.
The noble Baroness undoubtedly produced some powerful arguments and equally powerful statistics for action in this area. The Government want to consider the wide range of views on this important and sensitive issue before taking matters further. However, I hope that she will accept my reassurance that we intend to take the matter further. We can talk in the margins about whether further discussions would be helpful, and I would certainly be happy to try to facilitate them. I hope that she will accept my assurance-and that she can assure her colleagues-that we share a determination to address this problem and that if Clare's law is the best way forward we will certainly progress in that way.
The noble Baroness has presented a formidable case. The Home Secretary has consulted and is considering those consultations. I think that we can work together to take this matter forward in a positive fashion. In those circumstances, I ask the noble Baroness to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Gale: I am grateful to the Minister for his positive response, and I know that he understands that this is a crucial and serious issue. We have seen the success of Sarah's law and I am sure that we will eventually get to Clare's law. We look forward to
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Clause 118 : Employment in prisons: deductions etc from payments to prisoners
181A: Clause 118, page 97, line 7, at end insert-
"(c) arrangements for private companies to provide employment and training for persons who are required to be detained in prisons, young offender institutions and secure training centres;
(d) the provision of resources for vocational training and skills training for persons who are required to be detained in prisons, young offender institutions and secure training centres; and
(e) arrangements designed to ensure that all work carried out by prisoners provides them with nationally recognised qualifications, provides opportunities for learning and skills progression, and is evaluated for learning and employability outcomes."
Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, the amendment is tabled in the context of something mentioned in the Green Paper that has occurred many times in statements by the Government relating to what they intend to do with prisoners-in other words, to make prisons become working prisons and to increase the amount of time that prisoners spend at work; the 40-hour working week has been mentioned.
Clause 118 amends Section 47 of the Prison Act, which lays down what may happen. New subsection (2) refers to secure training centres and young offender institutions; new subsection (3) adds that different provision may be made for different cases; and new subsection (4) talks about employment rules made by the Secretary of State in that context.
My reason for this amendment, which may look a little prescriptive, is that from experience I know perfectly well that there is no way in which under current circumstances the Government will be able to enact what they say they want to do. I have known for years and years that the problem is that NOMS and the Prison Service simply are not orientated or equipped, nor do they have the ethos, to provide the business-like structure that is necessary if work is to be provided. They never have and they never will. The NOMS bureaucratic procedures involved in dealing with private contractors are ludicrously complicated and frustrate those who would like to contribute by providing work.
I have always contended that the ideal in a prison is a full, purposeful and active day for every prisoner, designed to tackle what has prevented them from living a useful, law-abiding life, with the idea that they
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I have said again and again that there is a need for someone to be in charge, responsible and accountable. I have said for years that until and unless a businessman is appointed to be in charge of the overall direction and provision of work in prisons, nothing will happen.
I have spoken to two distinguished providers of work in prison: Mr James Timpson, who not only runs four academies but has taken on almost 200 ex-prisoners in his employment around the country, and Mr Edwin Lucas, who has been working in the recycling trade as well as providing work in prisons for years. I listened with horror to the frustrations that they have expressed about trying to deal with prisons where no one has a clue about how to deal in a business-like way. For example, a van will arrive with deliveries of materials to be used by prisoners only to be sent away because people say, "We do not accept vans until four o'clock in the afternoon. It is now 11 o'clock in the morning, and you will have to wait". That is not how business works. People do not answer letters. Invoices are invariably late. People bring in pallets of material and are sent bills by prisons.
Until and unless there is proper oversight, run by businessmen, which includes trained people responsible for conducting business activities in each prison, nothing will happen. The present inefficiency of the system, where every governor is allowed to do his own thing, is telling against that, because the businessmen who are working with prisons tell me that probably only 20 of all the governors are capable of conducting the sort of activities that are needed. The others simply do not have the understanding or the ability to do it. There is no reason why they should. It should not be part of the requirement for a prison governor, who is there for another purpose.
In order to make the rehabilitation revolution work, I desperately want work to be provided. I know that a number of things could happen. For example, one of the best programmes in prison currently is Toe by Toe, where prisoners teach other prisoners to read. I seriously believe that in the prison population many skills are held by existing prisoners which could be put to good use in acting as trainers, and which are free and therefore will not act as a resource problem for the Prison Service. You get a double whammy, because the person doing the teaching gets as much out of the process as the person being taught.
For years, there has been an inhibitor on prison governors using their initiative to bring work in: grant in aid, which is required by the Treasury. Under that, a governor can declare that he will make a profit from an activity that he is to conduct, including prisoners making things. He declares that profit and, if he makes it, he is allowed to keep it and apply it within the prison. If he makes more, he has to surrender it to the Treasury. If he does not reach what he has said he will make, he has to provide it from his budget. For
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The three additional aspects that I have suggested the Secretary of State should consider are all to do with the provision of work. The amendment would make certain that those contracted were properly overseen and that all the activities, both vocational and educational, carried qualifications of worth that could be used outside. As I said, I admit that this is prescriptive but I feel so strongly that this work ethic must be encouraged and enabled that I could not resist proposing the addition of these paragraphs to Clause 118. I beg to move.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I support the amendment so eloquently introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. From what he said, I got the sense that it is really a probing amendment and that he did not expect to receive much support for it. However, he made such a powerful case that I hope the Minister might be swayed to think again about some of these points. As we have already heard in this Committee, it is obvious that many people enter prison without the capacity to read and write, let alone to hold down a job when they come out on release. Therefore, examples such as the Toe by Toe programme should be mandatory. Indeed, it is a pity that the amendment has not specified that it should be a requirement on the Secretary of State.
We have no objection at all to what is being proposed. Indeed, we would regard its prescriptive nature as being of benefit in the sense of tying down, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said, what is required of prisoners-that they should have a full, purposeful and active day, and that every prisoner should undertake something instead of staying in their cells so as to at least become engaged and appreciate what is necessary in order to succeed outside prison. It would therefore also reduce the level of reoffending.
There are some good examples of work with prisoners having been done by private employers. National Grid had a project at Reading in which I was involved in an earlier life, and I thought it was absolutely exemplary. It provided what seemed to be the critical path forward for those due to leave custodial sentences in the sense that it provided them with housing, jobs and training. It started before the prisoners left in order to bring their reading and writing up to speed, and it allowed them to learn a skill-in this case, fitting-which meant that they were able to operate as soon as they left. As I understand it, that programme is still going. The recidivism rate was very small indeed, so the programme was certainly worthy in that regard. It also had the advantage of satisfying a need on the part of employers-they had realised that they were not getting an adequate supply of people to do the necessary jobs, and they found that this programme provided a ready supply.
Therefore, there can be a win-win in what the Government and private enterprise are looking for. Indeed, one might say that it could apply to charities and public bodies and not just to private companies. However, the essential point of the amendment is that,
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Lord McNally: My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, I have had the opportunity to look at some organisations that have become involved in providing work for prisoners and, like him, I am impressed. It is encouraging that those who have taken the risk, as some may see it, of employing ex-prisoners, helping to train them, and doing work in prisons, find it a very fruitful experience.
Sometimes I think that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is a little hard on NOMS. I fully accept that it is obvious that the vast majority of the prison estate was not designed for operating work regimes. Many very competent prison governors and prison officers are not equipped to run businesses. That is a given, which makes the idea of work in prisons difficult but not impossible. One of the things that we have tried to do in the past 18 months is to tackle in a practical way the realities to which the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, referred. Several hundred organisations already provide work and training opportunities inside prisons, but many are small and want to do more to attract business.
We aim to provide a competitive package for business. We will make involvement as straightforward as possible and get the commercial model right for both prisons and the private sector, subject to our paramount interest in ensuring security, in line with our legal obligations. NOMS is developing new structures and putting in place the right people to operate in a businesslike way. That includes the recruitment of a new chief executive for the prison industries team within NOMS and a business development manager who will have responsibility for finding new businesses and managing relations with customers.
We are trying to address some of the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and as of now around 9,000 prisoners are employed in prison industries, which my rough arithmetic makes it to be around 10 per cent, or perhaps just a little over of the prison population. It is clear that there is much to do, but there are great prizes if we can get this right. Clause 118 is central to our plan to achieve our aim to make prisons places of meaningful and productive work where prisoners make reparation. Ensuring that prisoners and those detained in young offender institutions or secure training centres have access to training and can obtain qualifications is important. The Government certainly recognise the importance of this area and agree with the intent behind the amendment.
Let me assure noble Lords that we are already doing much of what we aim to do. Through our desire to increase the amount of meaningful and productive work done in prisons, the Government will give many more offenders the chance to learn the discipline and skills of working. As study after study has shown, offending patterns diminish once employment has been found. However, it is not just through prison working that we aim to reduce reoffending. Experience of a
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We plan to deliver learning bases on clusters of institutions that regularly transfer offenders between them. The learning and skills offer will focus on the needs of employers in the areas into which prisoners will be released, as well as on key issues, such as numerous, literacy and communication skills. Here again, I pay tribute to Toe by Toe, which is a marvellous way of tackling illiteracy-one of the problems that comes through time and again in offending. Decisions on the most appropriate learning and skills offer will be taken locally with the key aim of giving offenders the skills that they need to find and keep jobs and apprenticeships on release. There will be no one size fits all approach, nor should there be. Within this new framework we are retendering the offender learning and skills services-a process that gives the chance to look afresh at how to work with the best range of providers. As well as learning the necessary skills and having the right qualifications, many offenders have barriers to entering the labour market that must first be tackled.
As the Deputy Prime Minister announced in August 2011, from the summer of this year offenders leaving custody and claiming jobseeker's allowance will have to engage with a work programme provider on release, who will be paid for getting them into work. As well as creating this "day one" service, we are bringing together the claiming of jobseeker's allowance and the processing of benefits before release rather than after it, so prisoners should have a shorter wait for their first benefit payment, which will help their resettlement. In addition, any prison leaver who claims jobseeker's allowance within 13 weeks of release will be mandated to the work programme from the point of claim. We will also test, in two work programme areas, the addition of a reducing reoffending payment as part of our payment by results approach, in which we will use a variety of methods in the pilot phase.
We recognise that equipping children under the school leaving age with the skills they will need to succeed in life is vital. There is already an expectation that they will be in education rather than paid work. The raising of the participation age will mean that from 2013 all young people, including those in custody, must continue in education or training until the age of 17, and until 18 from 2015. Young people in secure training centres and under-18 young offender institutions will have access to a full day of education and constructive activity. In secure training centres, young people participate in education or training for at least 25 hours per week. In the under-18 young offender institutions, each young person will receive at least 25 hours per week of education and other constructive activity.
We believe that the amendment is constructive but unnecessary. Section 47(1) of the Prison Act 1952 allows the Secretary of State to make rules concerning the regulation and management of prisons, young offender institutions and secure treatment centres, and the treatment of those required to be detained therein. Subsection (3) states:
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"Rules ... may provide for the training of particular classes of persons".
Clause 118 will not change those aspects of the 1952 Act, which cover the same ground as Amendment 181A.
For adults detained in custody, the rule-making powers contained in the Prison Act are augmented by provisions in the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Act 2009, including a duty on the chief executive of Skills Funding to,
- "secure the provision of reasonable facilities for education suitable to the requirements of persons who are subject to adult detention",
and, in doing so, to take account of a range of factors such as facilities and equipment. In carrying out this duty, the chief executive must have regard to various matters, including the desirability of prisoners continuing the education or training that they have begun, and making the best use of resources.
I have listened often to-and have always welcomed-the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, championing the concept of making work, training and education a priority. They are the key to rehabilitation. I hope that what I have said has convinced him that, although we may not have achieved all that he desired, we are listening and trying as best we can to move in the direction that he advocates. For that reason, I hope that he will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for the care that he put into his response, and in particular for his closing remarks. I am also very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, for his words. As I said, the purpose of the amendment is to encourage something that I very strongly support. I hope that the Minister will be able to assure me that the business manager whom he said would be appointed will be a businessman and not a civil servant from NOMS. I do not decry civil servants who do civil servants' jobs, but we need a businessman in there, and I hope that one will be appointed.
I also hope that one of the first things that the business manager will do is carry out an inquiry with the people who currently provide work in prisons and allow them to tell him frankly of the frustrations and problems that they currently experience when trying to take work into prisons. The person concerned would find that very illuminating. If they take action on those frustrations, many of which I am very happy to pass on to the Minister because I have some censuses here, they would find it much more possible to deliver precisely what the Minister says he wants. If that happens-and, knowing the Minister, I am sure that it will-I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
182ZA: After Clause 118, insert the following new Clause-
"Benefits payments to prisoners
(1) Regulations shall provide that a person undergoing imprisonment or detention in legal custody who, at the time that imprisonment or custody commences, is in receipt of any of the
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(2) For the purposes of this section, the qualifying benefits are-
(a) universal credit;
(b) jobseeker's allowance;
(c) income support;
(d) personal independence payment, to the extent provided for in regulations made under section 84 (prisoners) of the Welfare reform Act 2012; and
(e) any other benefits provided for in regulations made under this section.
(3) Regulations made under this section shall provide that the assessment required under subsection (1) shall commence as soon as a person is received into imprisonment or custody.
(4) Regulations shall in particular provide that a person appointed by the Secretary of State shall record, at the time a person is received into imprisonment or custody, details of any qualifying benefits which are in payment at that time, together with any personal information needed to establish the person's identity, including but not limited to their national insurance number.
(5) An assessment of eligibility under subsection (1) shall be completed in such time as to ensure that the person assessed receives payment of any benefits for which he is assessed as being eligible no later than one week after his release from imprisonment or custody.
(6) Regulations under this section shall be made by the Secretary of State and shall be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure."
Lord Ramsbotham: I am sorry to be hogging the Floor. This amendment refers to an amendment that I have already tabled to the Welfare Reform Bill, and to something that has been worrying me ever since 1996 when I first came across it. It refers to the fact that when prisoners are released from prison they are given a release grant of £46, on which they are expected to live until their benefit payments, which they have had to apply for on release from prison, come through. That can take up to three weeks, and I defy anyone to live for three weeks on £46. Some prisoners qualify for double payment if they are of no fixed abode, but this became a Catch-22 situation when tagging was introduced because, in order to qualify to be tagged, you had to produce an address-and if you produced an address, you got only £46.
During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill, I suggested that it should be made the responsibility of the Department for Work and Pensions, using the jobcentre staff who are present in every prison, to process benefit claims during a sentence so that when prisoners leave, if they are entitled to benefits, they receive not a release grant but the first payment of the benefit so that the following week they get the next one and so on, so that financial planning can begin on the certainty of the benefit payment.
It should not be too difficult because when they come into prison a very large number of prisoners are already on one form of benefit or another, which has to be suspended during the sentence, so it is not a question of starting again but merely of resuming something already there. All the information necessary-the national insurance number and so on-is already held, so it should not be too difficult. I have never understood why first the Home Office and then the Ministry of Justice did not insist on that happening
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During the passage of the Welfare Reform Bill, I talked with the Minister and with officials in the Department for Work and Pensions, who told me that they had gone as far as they could. They have set up a scheme for employment benefits to be processed in prisons, starting this year, so they are covered, but all the others-those for the disabled, the elderly, children and so on-are not covered, so there is still a gap. There is also a problem because, under the new system that the Welfare Reform Bill will introduce, payment is in arrears-in other words, a prisoner has to come out and be out for a period of up to a week in order to qualify for a payment in arrears-so there is still a gap. This gap has got to be filled.
I believe that this is something that the Ministry of Justice should take on and ask for help with from the Department for Work and Pensions, which it is willing to give. Again there is the danger of being prescriptive but, having been worried about this for so long, and being quite certain that the Minister will be the first to want to stop a totally avoidable cause of reoffending, I suggest that when somebody is received in prison a standard set of questions should be asked to establish the national insurance number and the benefits. Then everyone should be interviewed by the jobcentre staff so that everyone knows what has to be done, and plans should be made for release a long time before the release process starts, rather than leaving it until the last moment, as now.
As much as probing whether the Ministry of Justice will take on this issue, the amendment suggests that the Department for Work and Pensions is waiting to co-operate in any way it can to eliminate an avoidable source of reoffending, thereby indirectly helping with the various matters that the Government hope to bring about in their Green Paper and a reduction in the size of the prison population. I beg to move.
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, as has been set out very clearly, the amendment seeks to ensure that anyone leaving custody gains swift access to the benefits to which they are entitled. We often think that coming out of prison is very positive, but it can be traumatic for people, particularly those with multiple needs. With no financial contingencies, these people usually rely on a benefits system that they experience as complicated, slow and unhelpful. In extremis, some return to crime, as the noble Lord said, because before they went into prison that was their proven source of income. Delays in accessing benefits can lead to financial hardship, stress and an increased risk of reoffending.
The Prison Reform Trust in its Time is Money report found that eight of 10 former prisoners claim benefits, so it is essential that we make sure the process of claiming is as simple and as hurdle-free as possible to give these post-custody people the best chance of staying away from crime.
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One report on adults with multiple needs documented the problems that they faced on coming out of prison, including delays of up to four weeks before the first payment, with no explanation; problems with claims made before they went to prison that had to be resolved before any new claim could be made; claims delayed because of no fixed address, as has already been referred to, or other unstable living arrangements; disputes over prison admission and release dates; and problems caused by not closing down a claim on entry to prison, which results in a fraud investigation and the new claim being suspended.
We also know that a third of people in prison do not have a bank account. This makes the payment of a deposit for housing or early expenses even harder to organise on release. Help beforehand and immediate access to benefits are key if the person is not to feel the need to return to using other people's money just to survive.
The report also emphasises the need for help and advice while still in prison-even more so over the coming years as the benefit system will, for most prisoners, have changed phenomenally by the time they come out from what they saw and knew about when they went into prison. For all the advantages in the Welfare Reform Bill-and, despite the arguments that we will have on Tuesday about its disadvantages, there are undoubtedly some advantages in it-the system of social security facing prisoners on release will be very different from the one they knew before. That will affect their re-emergence into a household. The payment of the universal credit to only one partner in the couple and other complications will need to be sorted out in advance.
In addition, half of prisoners have debts awaiting clearing on release, according to one survey, and one in three owes money for housing, which also makes access to a new home even more difficult.
The Centre for Social Justice has also highlighted similar problems faced by people leaving custody. Its report, Locked Up Potential, recognised that delays in processing benefits mean that many people who are discharged have no source of income when they most urgently need it. The report concluded:
"To bridge the finance gap, with the objective of reducing the resulting crime which it can fuel, we recommend that all prison employment and benefit advisers be required by the ... DWP and the MOJ to initiate core benefit applications at least three weeks prior to a prisoner's nominated release date".
Along with the noble Lord, we consider three weeks to be rather too short. Nevertheless, will the Minister let us know what discussions his department has had with the Department for Work and Pensions about responding to the recommendations in that report, thus ensuring that those leaving prison are not left with gaps and delays in accessing the financial support that may be essential to them for starting a new life?
I welcome the comments that the Minister made in response to the earlier amendment about access to the work programme. Undoubtedly, that is of great advantage to people coming out of prison. Access to advice on the whole new system of universal credit well before a prisoner's release date, and preferably when they first
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Lord McNally: My Lords, it is very nice to see the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, at the other side of the Dispatch Box. I presume that she is on the night shift. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is correct. We recognise a certain familiarity about the amendment from another Bill but it is none the worse for that. The reality is that the MoJ and the Department for Work and Pensions are in close contact on these issues and are trying to work through them.
I am reminded of a visit I made to a Turning Point project in Birmingham when I talked to a young man who was being helped and trained. He said, "You can't imagine the cold feeling in the pit of your stomach on your day of release". The noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, indicated that there is a broad consensus that one of the trigger points for reoffending is problems in resettling in the community on release. It is also true that some face problems in accessing benefits. In addition, we should do more to equip offenders to work, enabling more of them to be productive members of society on release and not a burden on the state, which was the subject of our earlier debate.
The National Offender Management Service is working to develop financial capability in custody by increasing access to money advice services. A number of prisons also commission financial advice from local CABs and through contracted housing advice services. We also encourage rent arrear repayment schemes. NOMS has also granted funds to Unlock, of which the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is president, to increase offender access to financial services. I was very pleased to attend and to speak at the launch of a handbook produced by Unlock to help prisoners with financial issues. We recognise that more work needs to be done to encourage prisoners to save towards their discharge across the estate and to make use of the IT available, which would support them in preparing for release.
More than half of those sentenced to custody are claiming benefits at the start of their prison sentence, and two years after release nearly half are still claiming out-of-work benefits. That is why we are working so closely with the Department for Work and Pensions to overcome the gap in access to benefits, which the noble Lord has outlined, and to ensure that our plans to get Britain working will get more offenders into jobs. However, I do not believe that the noble Lord's amendment will assist in achieving these aims. It would require us to conduct unnecessary assessments for all prisoners. This is because the work done on entering prison is highly likely to need updating as the sentence continues. At this time of fiscal constraint, it is vital that we look extremely carefully at how resources are targeted.
Staff working in prisons already take relevant steps when someone comes into custody to help sort out their benefits. New prisoners are specifically asked about this at induction and are referred to one of the 140 Jobcentre Plus employment and benefit advisers currently working in prisons. However, support does not end there, as we also recognise that release from
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: I am not so much the night shift as the Welfare Reform Bill shift. Of course, the grants that the noble Lord has just referred to are to be abolished. I trust that prisoners will be aware that they will no longer be available because the Welfare Reform Bill abolishes them.
Lord McNally: Yes, but not instantly, and there will be a transition to the new scheme that I will explain shortly. It is unfair, if the noble Baroness sat through the Welfare Reform Bill, to start brandishing her knowledge at this time of night!
All this activity is aimed at ensuring that ex-prisoners can access advice on employment and benefits. It is backed by the new NOMS specification for rehabilitation services which requires, as a minimum standard, that prisoners are supported to sort out their financial problems.
As I mentioned earlier, during the debate on the noble Lord's amendment on employment and training in prisons, we are working to overcome the remaining barriers as part of the Government's welfare reforms. This includes our plans to use the work programme as the primary vehicle for help and support, whereby all prison leavers who claim jobseeker's allowance will enter the work programme from day one of release from prison. This means some 30,000 prisoners a year will claim jobseeker's allowance and start the work programme on release from prison or within the following 13 weeks.
These changes will also mean that instead of arranging an appointment for the prison leaver to attend and claim jobseeker's allowance on release, the claim for jobseeker's allowance will be taken in prison, to start entitlement immediately on release, allowing mandatory referral to the work programme. We will also continue to work with the DWP, Jobcentre Plus and other agencies, including in the voluntary sector, to ensure that prisoners have all necessary information about claiming benefits on release, and in pursuing programmes that prevent reoffending.
The noble Lord has specifically raised concerns about what will happen in the case of ex-prisoners who are not seeking work. As the noble Lord, Lord Freud, also explained in the debate that touched on this issue, we are aiming to address the finance gap through our plans for universal credit payments, which are paid monthly in arrears. Under the proposals, an applicant, on leaving prison and with a valid claim, can be paid their claim immediately through payment on account. I think this will strike the right balance, in ensuring that ex-prisoners can access their benefits quickly through payment on account, and that our resources are primarily focused on getting more offenders into work.
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I hope with those explanations that the noble Lord will be reassured to the point that he will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, knows that I cede to no one in my admiration for him. He demonstrates that he understands the problem, and I am sure that he understands it much better than I do-I am a complete amateur in these matters. I found his argument very telling, particularly the £46 Catch-22. I also found the statement by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, very telling.
I have the impression that the Minister recognises there is a problem. He is describing various means which are already in hand of perhaps reducing the scale of the problem, and that is good. However, what is wrong with accepting the amendment? If the means of amelioration which the Minister has described reduce the need to impose a deadline-I take it that the nub of my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham's amendment is in subsection (5), with the one-week deadline-and mean that it would bite in fewer cases, that would be excellent. But would it not be good to have this provision anyway? I hope that the noble Lord will think further about the amendment because the arguments he has made are not arguments against it. He has made the argument that the scale of the problem which the amendment seeks to deal with may turn out, because of what the Government are doing or are planning to do, to be smaller than it was in the past. I accept that because it could well be true. However, that would still leave the core of a problem which the amendment would deal with. I hope that this matter will not be put away for ever.
6.15 pm
Lord McNally: My Lords, if the noble Lord was the head of a department of state he would not be advising me to accept the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, with such alacrity. However, I take the point. At the beginning of my remarks I made the point that we are now in close discussions with the Department for Work and Pensions in what we hope will be a genuine exercise in joined-up government. I remember one of the first experiences I had when I took over this office-and I should say that I am not the prisons Minister; my honourable friend Crispin Blunt is the Minister, and he has addressed these problems with great energy and commitment, but because of my responsibilities in this House I take an interest in this area. At any rate, I was reading in what was the strangest of all places, the Daily Telegraph, an article about a young man being released from prison with £46 in his pocket, but with a cold feeling in the pit of his stomach. The article went through the 48 hours after his release, by which time he was using that money to buy drugs and was back with the gang he had been associated with and which had sent him to prison in the first place. So we are not unaware of the problem.
I have said before that there is a revolving door of crime which sometimes our treatment of prisoners only exacerbates. What we are doing, in what I hope is a non-ideological way-I know about the fierce debates on the welfare Bill, but the noble Baroness was kind
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Lord Judd: I thank the noble Lord for giving way. He has been talking with a great deal of sensitivity and imagination in response to this amendment and I am encouraged and reassured by that. He seems to have a real grasp of the realities. I hope that he will be able to deal with a couple of points. He talked about a young man with a cold feeling in the pit of his stomach. I have encountered too many conversations of exactly that character. I remember something that I think I may have mentioned in the House before. A former chief constable was doing great work as a volunteer in a young offender institution, but he was bowled over when a youngster who was about to be released started to weep in his presence. He asked him, "Why are you weeping? You are about to be released". The youngster said, "Because I am absolutely scared of what I am going to encounter outside".
There are two things that we must bear in mind: first, that for some people-not, of course, the majority, but some-perhaps the very last thing they need is to go straight into a job. They need a great deal of support and counselling to prepare them. Front-line staff in prisons working with these youngsters often make that point. Secondly, agencies, advice and everything else are tremendous-what the Minister has been saying is terrific; the more of it that is available, the better-but it is not just that. What so often is needed in the context of the cold hole in the stomach is stable relationships and friendship. I hope that the Minister can give us reassurance that, in all the work that the Government are doing with the voluntary sector, they will give every encouragement to those voluntary organisations that are moving into this sphere and trying to provide a stable relationship-as it were, walking with the individual back into full rehabilitation into society.
Lord McNally: Part of the problem with this debate is that we cover two areas, which we were discussing earlier. First, there are dangerous people from whom society needs protection, and we have to deal with them within our criminal justice system. Secondly, you do not need to be in this job very long, or to visit very many prisons, to realise that there are people in our prisons who have no place there and who, with a proper policy of rehabilitation in its broadest sense, can be stopped from reoffending. We are really fighting on those two fronts.
On whether there should be a glide path into work, perhaps that is where we can get the work-in-prison regimes working properly. That in itself can help in that direction. The other thing that I am also very enthusiastic about and would like to see developed, and where the voluntary sector is superbly equipped to help, is mentoring schemes, and finding people who
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Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: Perhaps the Minister would use joined-up government to do one other thing. I mentioned when I intervened just now that the Social Fund was going to be abolished and that both grants and loans would become the responsibility of local authorities. The DWP has undertaken to issue a "settlement letter" about it to local authorities. One of the areas that we were worried about with regard to the Welfare Reform Bill was that a person would have to have a local connection to be able to claim either their replacement for social care grants or crisis loans. It is exactly ex-offenders who are least likely to be able to qualify because they may not have ties with the place that they go back to. It would be extremely helpful if the Minister could in discussions with the DWP stress the importance of that settlement letter making it clear that ex-offenders should be eligible for those payments even if they go to a local authority area where they have not just moved from because they are coming out of prison. His help on that would be greatly appreciated.
Lord McNally: I will gladly draw that to the attention of DWP.
Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, I was very glad that the night shift had started so that the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, with her great experience of these issues, was here to contribute to the debate. I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Kerr and to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for their contributions. They added value to the debate.
I am extremely grateful to the Minister, who demonstrated, as has been mentioned, that he understands the problem. Yet, in 1996 I first received an official pat on the head from an official in the Home Office who said, "Do not worry, we are talking to the Department of Employment about this". Absolutely nothing has happened about it and that was more than 15 years ago. In the run up to putting my amendments to the Welfare Reform Bill, I questioned officials in the Department for Work and Pensions who were not aware of any people in the Ministry of Justice involved in such discussions. I am glad that that is happening. It would be sensible to bring this amendment back on Report so that the Minister can tell us precisely what has happened since that time. I know that the Department for Work and Pensions is poised and waiting. The suggestions that I made to the Minister were requests from that department that would help it to help the Ministry of Justice. Hoping that that will happen, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
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Clause 120 : Transit of prisoners
182ZB: Clause 120, page 101, line 9, at end insert-
"(2A) The relevant Minister may issue a transit order where-
(a) international arrangements apply to any of the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man which provide for the transfer between that island and a country or territory outside the British Islands of persons to whom subsection (2B) applies; and
(b) the relevant Minister has received a request from the appropriate authority of that island for the transit of a person to whom subsection (2B) applies through a part of Great Britain.
(2B) A person falls within this subsection if-
(a) that person is for the time being required to be detained in a prison, a hospital or any other institution either-
(i) by virtue of an order made in the course of the exercise of its criminal jurisdiction by a court or tribunal in the island from which the transit request is made; or
(ii) by virtue of any provisions of the law of that island which are similar to any of the provisions of this Act; and
(b) except in a case where a transit request is made in the circumstances described in section 6D(1), that person is present in that island."
Lord McNally: My Lords, I cannot resist commenting on the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. He is such an old Whitehall warrior that he is always between one department and another, asking, "What are the difficult questions that I can ask them?".
Clause 120 provides that prisoners who are being transferred under escort from one state to another for the purpose of serving a sentence of imprisonment may transit through the territory of Great Britain. Transit will normally involve a prisoner and escort changing aircraft at an appropriate UK international airport. The clause is required to enable the UK to fulfil its international obligations under existing and future prisoner transfer arrangements. Following discussions with the authorities of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man, it has become clear that further powers are necessary to enable escorts from these territories to transit through Great Britain when transferring a prisoner to another state. This group of amendments address that particular issue with the Crown dependencies. They have no other, wider or ulterior motives, despite talking about transiting through territories et cetera. They are to enable the Crown dependencies-the Channel Islands and the Island of Man-to participate in what are already international obligations. I beg to move.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I am deeply sad that my appearance before the witching hour did not receive the approbation of the Minister, who did not welcome me to the Front Bench with my comments. I make no further comment on that. I also make it absolutely clear that the comments which follow have not been solicited by me creeping around
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The Minister is right. The wording of these amendments looks pretty innocuous on the surface but we wonder why they are there. I have five questions to leave with the Minister. He said that these were necessary to fulfil international obligations. That of course raises in one's mind the words "extraordinary rendition". Could he reassure the Committee that, as he said at the end, there is nothing that one should be worried about in that? Clearly, we are worried about extraordinary rendition. Is this a part of that overall process and, if not, could he explain precisely why the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man need to have this legislation at this time? I am sure that there is an innocuous explanation, but we would be grateful to have that. Perhaps in answering that he could also say what he estimates the effect will be of the provision. I cannot imagine that many international flights carrying prisoners and escorts, or without escorts, land in the Channel Islands and require this sort of arrangement; so it would be interesting to have the figures and, if he does not have them to hand, perhaps he could write to me.
Since we are on extraordinary rendition, which has been a sensitive issue for some time, perhaps the Minister could use the opportunity to refresh our memories about where we are on this. Is it still the case that the UK will not undertake extraordinary rendition of detainees in a manner that may be illegal? Confirmation of that would be gratefully received.
Lord McNally: On the last point, of course I can give that guarantee. I very much welcome the noble Lord as part of the nightshift. I apologise for the omission during his earlier contributions.
The Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernsey are not part of the United Kingdom; they are Crown dependencies. Whether it was an oversight or not, I do not know, but this just clears things up so that they can operate through UK airports if that was needed. I understand that there have been two or three cases in the past three or four years, so this is not some mass movement of people. They are applications on a voluntary basis, with people wanting to be repatriated back to their own country, and for prisoner exchange purposes.
It may help if I speak to Clause 120. The clause would enable prisoners who are being transferred from one state to another for the purpose of serving a sentence of imprisonment to transit through the territory of Great Britain. Transit will normally involve a prisoner and escort changing aircraft at an appropriate UK international airport. It is required to enable the UK to fulfil its international obligations under existing and future prisoner transfer arrangements. The United Kingdom is party to a number of international prisoner transfer arrangements which require the United Kingdom to facilitate transit wherever possible. In the absence of a specific power to authorise transit, and where necessary to detain a prisoner during transit, applications have been routinely refused.
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Clause 120 will enable the relevant Minister to authorise transit through the territory of Great Britain where a request is made in accordance with a relevant international prisoner transfer agreement to which the UK is party-in particular the Council of Europe's framework decision which requires a member state to facilitate transit between member states when requested. It also provides a power for the police to detain a prisoner in transit only for a period necessary to complete the transit.
The Government fully support the principle that foreign national prisoners should be able to serve their sentences in their own country and we need to support partner jurisdictions in achieving this end. For this system to work effectively, Governments must to co-operate with each other in facilitating transfer. Indeed, the UK regularly seeks and obtains permission to transit through other countries when returning British nationals here.
I recognise that concerns have been raised about the rights and protection of individuals subject to transit, but I remind the House that only when a person has been convicted and sentenced by a court of law and when that person is being transferred for the sole purpose of the enforcement of that sentence in another country would transit through the UK take place. The prisoner concerned is unlikely to have any connection with the United Kingdom and any challenge to the prisoner's transfer and detention should be made either to the sentencing or receiving state, not the United Kingdom.
This is a technical amendment and has none of the sinister implications that might have arisen at first blush. I hope that the assurances that I gave at the beginning to the noble Lord's questions will satisfy him.
Amendments 182ZC to 182ZF agreed.
Debate on whether Clause 120, as amended, should stand part of the Bill.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, I do not intend to detain the Committee long on this. This was not so much a probing matter as a sort of defensive one, in case the answers to the questions on the previous group of amendments proved in any way suspicious or raised questions about extraordinary rendition. I think I got it, although I found it a bit confusing as sometimes we were in Great Britain and sometimes we were in the United Kingdom. I will read
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Clause 120, as amended, agreed.
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