Table of Contents for
Monday 15 Jul 2013

Volume No. 747Part No. 35

Clicking on an entry will fetch the appropriate file and position it with the item at the top of the screen.

Following the Table of Contents is a more detailed list which gives subject headings, timelines and names of speakers


House of Lords

Introduction: Lord Livingston of Parkhead

Death of a Member: Lord Chitnis - Announcement

Retail: Portas-plus Package - Question

Medical Litigation: Impact on Medical Innovation - Question

Airports: Passenger Numbers - Question

Digital Strategy - Question

Highway and Railway (Nationally Significant Infrastructure Project) Order 2013 - Motions to Approve

Public Bodies (Abolition of BRB (Residuary) Limited) Order 2013 - Motions to Approve

Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill - Second Reading (and remaining stages)

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill - Third Reading

Amendment 1

Clause 17 : Orders and regulations

Amendment 2

Clause 19 : Extent

Amendment 3

Clause 20 : Short title and commencemen

Amendment 4

In the Title

Amendment 5

Motion

Local Audit and Accountability Bill [HL] - Report

Clause 1 : Abolition of existing audit regime

Amendment 1

Amendment 2

Clause 2 : Relevant authorities

Amendment 4

Clause 4 : General requirements for audit

Amendment 5

Clause 7 : Appointment of local auditor

Amendment 7

Amendment 8

Schedule 4: Further provisions about auditor panels

Amendment 10

Schedule 5: Eligibility and regulation of local auditors

Amendment 11

Clause 19 : General duties of auditors

Amendment 12

Clause 20: General duties of auditors of accounts of health service bodies

Amendments 13 to 17

Amendment 18

Schedule 7 : Reports and recommendations

Amendment 19

Schedule 8 : Advisory notices

Schedule 9 : Data matching

Amendment 22

Clause 35 : Disclosure of information

Clause 38 : Code of practice on local authority publicity

Amendment 24

Amendment 25

Amendments 26 and 27

Amendment 29

Amendments 31 and 32

Amendment 34

Amendments 38 and 39

Amendment 40

Amendment 41

Clause 39 : Council tax referendums

Amendment 42

Finance Bill - Second Reading (and remaining stages)

Draft Finance Bill 2013: Economic Affairs Committee Report - Motion to Take Note

Grand Committee

Public Bodies (Abolition of Victims’ Advisory Panel) Order 2013 - Considered in Grand Committee

Public Bodies (Merger of the Gambling Commission and the National Lottery Commission) Order 2013 - Considered in Grand Committee

Apprenticeships (Alternative English Completion Conditions) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 - Considered in Grand Committee

National Minimum Wage (Amendment) Regulations 2013 - Considered in Grand Committee

Unfair Dismissal (Variation of the Limit of Compensatory Award) Order 2013 - Considered in Grand Committee

Written Statements

Arms Trade Treaty - Statement

Automotive Industry - Statement

Companies: Transparency and Trust - Statement

Competition and Markets Authority - Statement

ECOFIN - Statement

Employment Law - Statement

Energy: Domestic Renewable Heat - Statement

EU: Agriculture and Fisheries Council - Statement

EU: Health Council - Statement

Health: Learning Disabilities - Statement

Hong Kong - Statement

National Forest Company - Statement

NHS: Liverpool Care Pathway - Statement

Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc - Statement

Ordnance Survey: Performance Targets - Statement

Powers of Entry - Statement

Smoking: Tobacco Products - Statement

Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill - Statement

Written Answers

Agriculture: Genetically Modified Crops - Questions

Agriculture: Herbicides - Question

Agriculture: Wheat - Question

Banking - Question

Banking: Bonuses - Question

Benefits - Question

Burma - Questions

Businesses: Graduate Entrepreneurs - Question

Children: Sexual Exploitation - Question

Children: Sexually Explicit Material - Question

Council Tax - Question

Crime: Domestic Violence - Question

Embryology - Questions

EU: Legislation - Question

Forced Marriage - Question

Health: Cardiology - Question

Health: Drugs Pricing - Questions

Health: Mitochondrial Disease - Question

Health: Monitor - Question

Health: Neuromotor Immaturity - Question

Housing - Questions

Iran - Question

Iraq - Question

Nepal - Question

NHS: Accident and Emergency Departments - Questions

NHS: Migrant Access and Charges - Questions

NHS: Waiting Lists - Questions

Nuclear Disarmament - Question

Overseas Conflict: Sexual Violence - Question

Planning - Question

Police: Prosecutions - Questions

Police: Whistle-blowers - Question

Ports: Dredging - Questions

Prisoners: Disabled Facilities - Question

Railways: Arriva Trains Wales - Question

Railways: High Speed 2 - Question

Syria - Question

Taxation: Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories - Question

Wales and Scotland: Devolution - Question

Young Offender Institutions: Child Protection - Question





This Table of Contents lists subject headings, timelines and
names of speakers in the Lords Hansard text for
Monday 15 Jul 2013

Column: 521


Column: 521

House of Lords [15 Jul 2013]

2.30 pm

Introduction: Lord Livingston of Parkhead

2.38 pm

Death of a Member: Lord Chitnis - Announcement

2.43 pm

The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza):

Retail: Portas-plus Package - Question

2.44 pm

Lord Naseby:

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham):

Lord Naseby:

Column: 522

Baroness Hanham:

Lord Cotter:

Baroness Hanham:

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Baroness Hanham:

Lord Phillips of Sudbury:

Column: 523

Baroness Hanham:

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton:

Baroness Hanham:

Medical Litigation: Impact on Medical Innovation - Question

2.51 pm

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Column: 524

Lord Saatchi:

Noble Lords:

Lord Saatchi:

Earl Howe:

Lord Campbell-Savours:

Earl Howe:

Lord Walton of Detchant:

Earl Howe:

Column: 525

Lord Mawhinney:

Earl Howe:

Baroness Wall of New Barnet:

Earl Howe:

Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames:

Earl Howe:

Lord Patel:

Earl Howe:

Airports: Passenger Numbers - Question

2.59 pm

Column: 526

Lord Clinton-Davis:

Earl Attlee:

Lord Clinton-Davis:

Earl Attlee:

Lord Spicer:

Earl Attlee:

Lord Foulkes of Cumnock:

Earl Attlee:

Column: 527

Lord Bradshaw:

Earl Attlee:

Baroness Scotland of Asthal:

Earl Attlee:

Lord Naseby:

Earl Attlee:

Lord Faulkner of Worcester:

Earl Attlee:

Column: 528

Lord Davies of Oldham:

Earl Attlee:

Digital Strategy - Question

3.06 pm

Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Column: 529

Lord Clement-Jones:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Baroness Bakewell:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Baroness Wheatcroft:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Lord Wright of Richmond:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Column: 530

Lord Reid of Cardowan:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Lord Avebury:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Column: 531

Highway and Railway (Nationally Significant Infrastructure Project) Order 2013 - Motions to Approve

Public Bodies (Abolition of BRB (Residuary) Limited) Order 2013 - Motions to Approve

3.15 pm

Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill - Second Reading (and remaining stages)

3.15 pm

Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill - Third Reading

3.16 pm

Baroness Anelay of St Johns:

Amendment 1

Column: 532

Baroness Stowell of Beeston:

Column: 533

Column: 534

Lord Alli:

Lord Lester of Herne Hill:

Column: 535

Lord Rowlands:

Column: 536

3.30 pm

Lord Higgins:


Column: 537

The Lord Bishop of Norwich:

Baroness Royall of Blaisdon:

Lord Elton:

Column: 538

Baroness Stowell of Beeston:


Column: 539

Lord Higgins:

Baroness Stowell of Beeston:

3.45 pm

Column: 540


Column: 541

Clause 17 : Orders and regulations

Amendment 2

Clause 19 : Extent

Amendment 3

Column: 542

Clause 20 : Short title and commencemen

Amendment 4

In the Title

Amendment 5

Motion

Lord Cormack:


Column: 543

Lord Framlingham:


Column: 544

4 pm

Lord Fowler:

Lord Dear:

Column: 545

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton:


Column: 546

Baroness Barker:

Baroness Thornton:


Column: 547

Column: 548

4.15 pm

Baroness Stowell of Beeston:

Column: 549

Local Audit and Accountability Bill [HL] - Report

4.20 pm

Clause 1 : Abolition of existing audit regime

Amendment 1

Lord McKenzie of Luton:


Column: 550

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill:


Column: 551

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham):

4.30 pm

Column: 552

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Baroness Hanham:

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Column: 553

Amendment 2

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill:

Baroness Hanham:

4.45 pm

Column: 556


Column: 557


Column: 558

Lord Christopher:

Baroness Hanham:

Lord McKenzie of Luton:


Column: 559

Baroness Hanham:

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

5 pm

Division on Amendment 2Contents 170; Not-Contents 205.Amendment 2 disagreed.

Division No. 1 [] [15 Jul 2013]

Column: 560

Column: 561

Column: 562

5.13 pm

Clause 2 : Relevant authorities

Amendment 4

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

5.15 pm

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill:

Column: 563

Baroness Hanham:

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Clause 4 : General requirements for audit

Amendment 5

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Column: 564

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill:

Baroness Hanham:


Column: 565

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Baroness Hanham:

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill:

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Column: 566

Clause 7 : Appointment of local auditor

The Deputy Speaker (Lord Geddes):

Amendment 7

:

5.30 pm

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Column: 567

Amendment 8

Schedule 4: Further provisions about auditor panels

Amendment 10

Lord McKenzie of Luton:


Column: 568

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill:

Column: 569

Baroness Hanham:

Baroness Eaton:

Baroness Hanham:

Column: 570

5.45 pm

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Column: 571

Baroness Hanham:

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Schedule 5: Eligibility and regulation of local auditors

Amendment 11

Baroness Hanham:

Column: 572

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Clause 19 : General duties of auditors

Amendment 12

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:


Column: 573

Lord McKenzie of Luton:


Column: 574

6 pm

The Archbishop of York:

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill:


Column: 575

The Archbishop of York:

Lord James of Blackheath:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Column: 576

Clause 20: General duties of auditors of accounts of health service bodies

Amendments 13 to 17

Amendment 18

Column: 577

Lord Wills:

Column: 578

Column: 579

6.15 pm

Column: 580

Lord Shipley:

Lord Palmer of Childs Hill:

Column: 581

The Earl of Lytton:

Column: 582

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

6.30 pm

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Column: 583

Lord Wills:

Column: 584

Schedule 7 : Reports and recommendations

Amendment 19

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Column: 585

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Schedule 8 : Advisory notices

Schedule 9 : Data matching

Amendment 22

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Column: 586

6.45 pm

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:


Column: 587

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Column: 588

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Lord Wallace of Saltaire:

Column: 589

Lord McKenzie of Luton:

Clause 35 : Disclosure of information

Clause 38 : Code of practice on local authority publicity

Amendment 24

Baroness Hanham:


Column: 590

Lord Beecham:

7 pm

Column: 591

Baroness Hanham:


Column: 592

Amendment 25

Lord Tope:

Column: 593

7.15 pm

Column: 594

Column: 595

The Earl of Lytton:

Lord Beecham:

Column: 596


Column: 597

7.30 pm

Baroness Hanham:


Column: 598


Column: 599

Lord Tope:


Column: 600

Amendments 26 and 27

Amendment 29

Amendments 31 and 32

Amendment 34

Amendments 38 and 39

Column: 601

7.45 pm

Amendment 40

Lord Beecham:


Column: 602

Baroness Hanham:

Lord Beecham:

Amendment 41

Lord Beecham:

Column: 603


Column: 604

Baroness Hanham:


Column: 605

8 pm

Lord Beecham:

Column: 606

Clause 39 : Council tax referendums

Amendment 42

Lord Beecham:

Column: 607

Lord Shipley:

Column: 608

The Earl of Lytton:

8.15 pm

Baroness Hanham:

Column: 609

Column: 610

Column: 611

Lord Beecham:

Column: 612

Finance Bill - Second Reading (and remaining stages)

8.30 pm

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton):


Column: 613


Column: 614

8.37 pm

Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market:


Column: 615


Column: 616


Column: 617


Column: 618

8.50 pm

Lord Wakeham:


Column: 619


Column: 620

8.59 pm

Baroness Kramer:


Column: 621

9.06 pm

Baroness Wheatcroft:

Column: 622


Column: 623

9.14 pm

Lord Bilimoria:


Column: 624


Column: 625

9.22 pm

Lord Bates:

Column: 626

Column: 627

9.27 pm

Lord Davies of Oldham:


Column: 628


Column: 629

9.36 pm

Lord Deighton:


Column: 630

Column: 631

Column: 632

Draft Finance Bill 2013: Economic Affairs Committee Report - Motion to Take Note

9.46 pm

Column: GC193


Column: GC193

Grand Committee [15 Jul 2013]

3.30 pm

The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall):

Public Bodies (Abolition of Victims’ Advisory Panel) Order 2013 - Considered in Grand Committee

3.30 pm

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally):


Column: GC194


Column: GC195


Column: GC196

Lord Beecham:


Column: GC197

3.45 pm

Lord McNally:


Column: GC198

Public Bodies (Merger of the Gambling Commission and the National Lottery Commission) Order 2013 - Considered in Grand Committee

3.53 pm

Lord Gardiner of Kimble:


Column: GC199


Column: GC200

4 pm

Lord Faulkner of Worcester:

Column: GC201

Baroness Jones of Whitchurch:


Column: GC202

Column: GC203

Lord Faulkner of Worcester:

Lord Gardiner of Kimble:

Column: GC204

4.15 pm

Column: GC205

Apprenticeships (Alternative English Completion Conditions) (Amendment) Regulations 2013 - Considered in Grand Committee

4.19 pm

Baroness Garden of Frognal:


Column: GC206

Lord Greenway:

Column: GC207

Lord Young of Norwood Green:


Column: GC208

4.30 pm

Baroness Garden of Frognal:

4.32 pm

Column: GC209

National Minimum Wage (Amendment) Regulations 2013 - Considered in Grand Committee

4.37 pm

Lord Popat:


Column: GC210


Column: GC211

4.45 pm

Baroness Donaghy:


Column: GC212

Lord Young of Norwood Green:

Lord Popat:

Column: GC213

Lord Young of Norwood Green:

Lord Popat:

Unfair Dismissal (Variation of the Limit of Compensatory Award) Order 2013 - Considered in Grand Committee

4.53 pm

Lord Popat:


Column: GC214

Column: GC215

Lord Monks:

5.01 pm
5.11 pm

Lord Monks:


Column: GC216

Baroness Donaghy:

5.15 pm

Lord Young of Norwood Green:

Column: GC217

Lord Popat:

Column: GC218

Lord Young of Norwood Green:

Lord Popat:

Baroness Donaghy:

Column: GC219

Lord Popat:

Column: GC220

Column: WS53


Column: WS53

Written Statements [15 Jul 2013]

Arms Trade Treaty - Statement

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi):


Column: WS54

Automotive Industry - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie):

Column: WS55

Companies: Transparency and Trust - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie):

Column: WS56

Competition and Markets Authority - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie):

Column: WS57

ECOFIN - Statement

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton):

Column: WS58

Employment Law - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie):

Column: WS59

Column: WS60


Column: WS61

Energy: Domestic Renewable Heat - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Baroness Verma):

Column: WS62

EU: Agriculture and Fisheries Council - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley):

EU: Health Council - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):


Column: WS63

Health: Learning Disabilities - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Column: WS64

Column: WS65

Hong Kong - Statement

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi):

National Forest Company - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley):


Column: WS66

NHS: Liverpool Care Pathway - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):


Column: WS67

Northern Rock (Asset Management) plc - Statement

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton):

Column: WS68

Ordnance Survey: Performance Targets - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie):

Powers of Entry - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach):

Column: WS69

Smoking: Tobacco Products - Statement

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Column: WS70

Supply and Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill - Statement

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton):

Column: WA75


Column: WA75

Written Answers [15 Jul 2013]

Agriculture: Genetically Modified Crops - Questions

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley):

Lord De Mauley:

Column: WA76

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Agriculture: Herbicides - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley):

Agriculture: Wheat - Question

Column: WA77

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley):

Banking - Question

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton):

Banking: Bonuses - Question

Column: WA78

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton):

Benefits - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud):

Burma - Questions

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi):

Baroness Warsi:

Baroness Warsi:

Businesses: Graduate Entrepreneurs - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie):

Column: WA80

Children: Sexual Exploitation - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach):

Column: WA81

Children: Sexually Explicit Material - Question

Lord Gardiner of Kimble:

Council Tax - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham):

Column: WA82

Crime: Domestic Violence - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach):

Embryology - Questions

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Column: WA83

Earl Howe:

EU: Legislation - Question

Earl Attlee:

Forced Marriage - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach):

Column: WA84

Health: Cardiology - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Column: WA85

Health: Drugs Pricing - Questions

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Column: WA86

Earl Howe:

Health: Mitochondrial Disease - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Health: Monitor - Question

Column: WA87

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Health: Neuromotor Immaturity - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Housing - Questions

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham):

Baroness Hanham:

Column: WA89

Iran - Question

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi):

Iraq - Question

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally):

Nepal - Question

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi):

Column: WA90

NHS: Accident and Emergency Departments - Questions

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Earl Howe:

NHS: Migrant Access and Charges - Questions

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Earl Howe:

Column: WA92

NHS: Waiting Lists - Questions

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe):

Column: WA93

Nuclear Disarmament - Question

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi):

Overseas Conflict: Sexual Violence - Question

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi):

Column: WA94

Planning - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham):

Police: Prosecutions - Questions

Column: WA95

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally):

Police: Whistle-blowers - Question

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach):

Ports: Dredging - Questions

Earl Attlee:

Column: WA96

Earl Attlee:

Earl Attlee:

Column: WA97

Earl Attlee:

Prisoners: Disabled Facilities - Question

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally):

Railways: Arriva Trains Wales - Question

Earl Attlee:

Column: WA98

Railways: High Speed 2 - Question

Earl Attlee:

Syria - Question

The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi):

Taxation: Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories - Question

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton):

Column: WA99

Wales and Scotland: Devolution - Question

The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Deighton):

Young Offender Institutions: Child Protection - Question

The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally):