I will certainly withdraw the amendment. This has been an interesting debate. I am well aware that I have not had any friends as regards the amendment that I moved. My concern is that there has been a general recognition that there is a problem in this area and that it is getting worse. I do not think that any noble Lord has sought to say anything to the contrary. The real concern must be that we do not spend all our time discussing what to do, not taking any action at all and finding that the problem gets worse and worse, which could happen. Let us hope that that is not the case; I note what the Minister has said about actions they seek to take. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 56NA withdrawn.

Amendment 56NB not moved.

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Baroness Thornton (Lab): My Lords, Amendment 56NC, in the names of my noble friends, makes tobacco proxy purchasing an offence, punishable by a maximum £5,000 fine—the same penalty as for alcohol. It is illegal across the UK to sell tobacco products to anyone under the age of 18. However, it is not an offence for someone to buy tobacco products on behalf of a minor. We believe that that is a significant loophole in our system. Proxy purchasing of alcohol is already illegal across the UK, but that is not the case with tobacco products. That is why we want this to be remedied. Getting someone else to buy on their behalf is one of the chief ways in which young people access tobacco products. Trading Standards has estimated that nearly half, or 46% of underage smokers, regularly get their tobacco from a proxy purchaser. Given the Government’s latest extremely welcome U-turn on plain packaging, I should have thought that the Minister, on behalf of the Government, would be seeking to deal with this issue.

6 pm

A study in 2011 found that 53% of occasional smokers and 89% of regular smokers had used proxy sales as a means of accessing tobacco in the previous year. Proxy purchasing tobacco is already illegal in Scotland, under the Tobacco and Primary Medical Services (Scotland) Act 2010, and the Northern Ireland Executive are currently supporting an amendment that would ban it there, too. This would leave England and Wales as the only places in the UK where it is still legal. A law to ban proxy purchasing tobacco products for under-18s has already received public support from the Association of Convenience Stores, which says that it is in favour of a ban on proxy purchasing tobacco products to bring the legislation in line with the purchase of alcohol.

It is with some disappointment that, during a debate in the tobacco products directive, Jane Ellison, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health, said:

“Many children who smoke get their cigarettes from friends and family, and from other children who share cigarettes in parks and playgrounds. An offence of proxy purchasing would be unlikely to stop family members or friends giving cigarettes to young people”.—[Official Report, Commons, 28/10/13; col. 736.]

We disagree with her; we think that the evidence clearly reflects that tobacco proxy sales are a means for under-18s obtaining cigarettes and then, as we know, becoming addicted at that young age. That is why we have tabled Amendment 56NC.

Tobacco proxy sales pose a significant problem. They have a harmful impact on the health of those under 18, for the rest of their lives. We urge the Government to consider our amendment and make proxy purchasing tobacco products on behalf of children an offence, as Scotland has and Northern Ireland is considering doing. I beg to move.

Baroness Crawley (Lab): My Lords, I apologise that I was not present for Second Reading and ask for the forbearance of noble Lords in my intervention at this stage to support my noble friend’s amendment. However, my support comes with a heavy health warning about effective surveillance and enforcement. As president of the Trading Standards Institute, I am aware of this significant problem. As so many thousands of young

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people experience their first steps down the road to smoking addiction, as my noble friend said, it is through that means that that addiction starts.

Any move to tackle proxy sales of tobacco would get the full support of the trading standards profession, but proper enforcement and adequate surveillance is a great concern to it. A recent study of proxy sales of tobacco found that there was a strong desire from business representatives—and my noble friend referred to this—to see legislation implemented. The Robinson and Amos study of 2010 of young people’s sources of cigarettes and attempts to circumvent underage sales laws concluded that, while there was indeed a problem, more detailed research was needed before further action was taken. It was suggested that regular national smoking surveys should include questions that could capture more accurately the nature and extent of proxy purchases. I feel that this is somewhat cautious, given what we know from a number of surveys about the danger that young people are placed in by this activity. However, I would appreciate the Minister’s views on the suggestion of a more consistent way in which to survey the problem.

While the Demos think tank report that was out last week, called Sobering Up, studied the very real issue of underage access to alcohol and street drinking, and involved working with Kent trading standards officers, the read-across to tobacco is obvious. Even with legislation, enforcement is the key. The report recommended tackling the growing problem of proxy purchasing through greater community policing of the offence and tougher punishments for those caught. Of course, we are aware that there is an offence of proxy sales of tobacco in Scotland, with fixed penalty notices for both the purchase of tobacco by a young person under the age of 18 years and, separately, for the proxy purchase of tobacco on behalf of a person under 18 years. In Scotland, from April 2011, for the purchase of tobacco by a person under 18, the fixed penalty is £50 and the penalty on prosecution is up to a £200 fine. Also from April 2011, proxy purchases carry a fixed penalty of £200 and up to a £5,000 fine for a penalty on prosecution.

What research have the Government carried out into the effect of this new legislation in Scotland on proxy sales purchases so far? While many of us have anecdotal evidence, we are now two years down the road from the introduction of this Scottish legislation, and I think that noble Lords who want to support this amendment would agree that government has the provision and means to come up with far more structured evidence. I know that the Scottish legislation is still embedding itself; the Scottish Government’s request is for a softly-softly approach to be taken, especially with the introduction at the same time of the display and vending machines ban this year. But the aim, certainly, of trading standards in Scotland is to work in partnership with retailers to increase compliance with the new law. I am grateful to Veronica McGinley, the trading standards officer for Renfrewshire Council for her thoughts on the Scottish experience so far.

It has been emphasised to me that there are, of course, real personal safety risks attached to this type of sale, so we are not simply talking about young

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people’s health but their personal safety. In Renfrewshire alone, the recent Scottish Adolescent Lifestyle and Substance Use Survey found that 54% of 13 year-olds and 55% of 15 year-olds reported getting someone else to buy their tobacco for them. More frighteningly, in the case of 35% of 13 year-old regular smokers, this was most likely to be from an adult unknown to them.

While supporting moves to legislate in principle, we have to be aware that the enforcement of much tobacco control legislation, including the current age of sale, is the responsibility of local authority trading standards officers. There has been a great deal of talk about trading standards officers. I do not think—my noble friend is no longer in his place—that they would necessarily see themselves as cold war warriors: they are very much into partnership and encouragement these days. However, enforcement is extremely challenging given the massive reductions in staff and budgetary allocations that trading standards departments have faced in the past three years up and down the country. We have heard very recently of a local authority which has proposed reducing its trading standards department by 80% over the next two years. This is very serious if we are talking about the proper enforcement of serious legislation. The requirement also for a Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act authorisation in each case may pose a significant barrier to the testing and enforcement of future legislation. Can the Minister say what further assistance the Government envisage in terms of resource allocation to local authorities in the enforcement of this proposed legislation and, indeed, of current legislation? My noble friend made a robust case for introducing these new offences into the Bill and I look forward to the Minister’s reflections.

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I thank both noble Baronesses who have spoken on this issue. I was slightly surprised to see this amendment as it is something that perhaps has been, and no doubt will be, considered in debates on the Children and Families Bill. There was also last Thursday’s Urgent Question, but that was more specific on the issue of standardised tobacco packaging, which I am sure the House will deal with in its own way at the appropriate time.

We in this Committee and in the wider House can all agree that it is wrong for people to buy tobacco on behalf of children and young people; that was a point well made by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. We totally acknowledge that smoking is an addiction which unfortunately begins largely in childhood and adolescence, with peer pressure, friends or whatever encouraging people to take it up. Almost two-thirds of current and ex-smokers in England say that they started smoking regularly before the age of 18.

Part of our comprehensive tobacco control plan for England, which was published in 2011, was therefore focused on reducing the numbers of young people taking up smoking. The plan also includes a national ambition to reduce smoking among young people in England to less than 12% by 2015. As a result of decades of tobacco control, rates of smoking among young people have reduced considerably to around 10%, according to the most recent figures. I am sure that we have all noticed the practice of reducing smoking and prohibiting it in places such as restaurants.

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I remember as a child seeing smoking on trains and undergrounds, which we would be appalled by in this modern age. Restricting and prohibiting smoking has led to a reduction of it in society in general.

However, the take-up of smoking by young people continues to be a problem. It is estimated that more than 300,000 young people under the age of 16 in England try smoking for the first time each year. Reducing access to tobacco by children and young people remains a high priority for the Government and we are determined to reduce further the smoking rates among young people.

As for the sale of tobacco, we know that the majority of retailers are law-abiding and conscientious in how they conduct their sales. I acknowledge the important role they play in ensuring that legitimate tobacco products are sold in accordance with the law, including by being rigorous in refusing sales to young people under the age of 18. I realise that this can be difficult and I understand why some noble Lords and some retailers feel that it should be an offence to buy tobacco on behalf of under-18s. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, said, we need to consider carefully whether creating a new offence of proxy purchasing is the right way forward at this time.

The supply of tobacco to children and young people is not a straightforward issue. A new offence of proxy purchasing would not necessarily tackle the wider problem of the supply of cigarettes because children and young people get them from a range of sources, not just from retailers. For example, many children and young people who smoke obtain their cigarettes from their parents or other members of the family—it is tragic but it does happen—or from friends or people they may socialise with who are over the age of 18. Buying single cigarettes in the school playground happens in certain parts of the country. A proxy purchasing offence would do nothing to stop these issues.

6.15 pm

We also need to look at the practicalities of enforcing a proxy purchasing offence. Enforcement of most tobacco control legislation, including the current law on the age of sale, is—as the noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, pointed out—the responsibility of local authority trading standards officers. On the previous amendment my noble friend Lady Hamwee asked whether the Government have been speaking to the Trading Standards Institute. The Trading Standards Institute is broadly supportive of any measures to limit access to tobacco by young people. However, it has also told us that the experience of enforcing the proxy purchasing offence for alcohol suggests that it would be difficult for a similar offence for tobacco to be applied effectively. Enforcement would be resource-intensive for local authorities, particularly because of the burden of proof that would be required for a successful prosecution.

There are already considerable pressures on local authority trading standards officers and it can be difficult to prove the offence of proxy purchasing. Effective enforcement requires surveillance of shopper and retailer behaviour and is time-consuming. However, when this issue was debated recently in the other place, my colleague the Minister for Public Health, Jane Ellison, said—and I repeat that offer—that she would be happy

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to hear the views, as she said, of Members, and I am sure of all noble Lords, about the local authorities they are dealing with on this issue, particularly on the issue of enforcement.

I can assure noble Lords that the Government are not complacent about smoking by young people. I will give some examples of the actions we are taking. Since April 2012, supermarkets can no longer have permanently open displays of tobacco products; and in April 2015 this will apply in all shops and anywhere else selling tobacco to the public. Tobacco can no longer be sold from vending machines in England. This has removed an easily accessible source of underage sales. It was estimated that in England about 35 million cigarettes were being sold to people under the age of 18 every year from vending machines. We also continue to run hard-hitting marketing campaigns, including Stoptober. In June and July 2013, we ran a television-led marketing campaign to encourage smokers to protect their families, particularly their children, from second-hand smoke by not smoking in the home or family car. Since January, we have distributed more than half a million Quit Kits—our local stop smoking services are among the best in the world. Smokers trying to quit do better if they use these kits. To discourage smoking, we have some of the highest priced tobacco in Europe and will carry on reviewing our tax policy in this regard. Of course, we fully support the smoke-free legislation passed in the Health Act 2006, which is proving to be both popular and effective in reducing smoking-related illnesses.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Crawley, both referred to Scotland. A proxy purchasing offence has been in place there since 2011. I assure noble Lords that we are keeping a close eye on how this is being implemented. It is one of a number of changes made as Scotland brought in its registration scheme for tobacco retailers. The Scottish Government, who we have talked to about this issue, say they do not currently hold any information about the numbers of convictions or, as yet, any evaluation of the effectiveness of the new offences. As I said, however, this is an open and live dialogue. The noble Baroness, Lady Crawley, also talked about resources. She is right to raise this issue, but it is very much a matter for local authorities to decide what resources they wish to put into enforcing trading standards.

Finally, while the Government want to take all appropriate action to ensure that cigarettes do not reach those under the age of 18, we remain to be convinced that a new offence of proxy purchasing is, in itself, the answer to stopping smoking by children and young people. This issue is driven primarily by the effectiveness of enforcement. Having illustrated some of the initiatives we are taking, and restated that we wish to hear about the experiences and ideas on how this matter can be tackled of all who are concerned about this issue, I hope that the noble Baroness is minded to withdraw this amendment.

Baroness Crawley: Given the parlous position of local authorities and the possibility of severe cuts in trading standards departments over the next three years, is the Minister satisfied that local authority officers will be able to help police these important laws to protect our young people?

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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The noble Baroness is right to raise that issue. As someone who worked in local government for 10 years, I am aware of the budgetary challenges faced by local authorities, irrespective of which Administration is in control centrally, and they need to establish priorities. The noble Baroness made an important point about enforcement. If this were to be made an offence, we would need to consider how it would be enforced. Even if a local authority took it upon itself to increase its number of trading standards officers to enforce this measure, it would be very difficult to do so given all the retail outlets that would need to be monitored. It is important to see what happens in other parts of the country, particularly in Scotland. We have an open door on this issue. If local authorities come up with a good initiative, I hope that they will share it with us so that it can be replicated across the country.

Baroness Thornton: I thank the Minister for his reply and I particularly thank my noble friend Lady Crawley for her contribution. As the Minister is a fairly recent newcomer to tobacco issues and I am not, I gently say to him that all the initiatives he mentioned were introduced by the previous Labour Government in the teeth of great opposition from the Benches opposite, if not from those to the left. We are pleased that those initiatives are being carried through, including the introduction of plain packaging—there is absolutely no doubt about that at all. However, the arguments that the Minister has deployed on proxy purchasing are the same ones that the Conservatives have deployed in all the discussions we have had about tobacco regulation over the many years that I have dealt with the issue. It was argued that because one initiative would not solve the whole problem it should not be introduced. We know that making it an offence to proxy purchase tobacco products on behalf of children is not the complete answer—of course it is not—just as we know that plain packaging is not the complete answer, and just as we know that covering up tobacco products in supermarkets is not the complete answer. We know that the provision we are discussing is not the complete answer. However, that does not mean that it is not important to consider it.

I am pleased that the Minister said that the door was open on this issue. Perhaps I may push at that door a little and say that if this amendment is not acceptable to the Government, perhaps they need to consider taking a power to introduce an offence of proxy purchasing at the next stage of the Bill, which can then be implemented in due course. That might resolve this problem. I hope the Government will think about that between now and the next stage of the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 56NC withdrawn.

Clause 110: Regulations to be prepared or approved by the College

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Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, Clause 110 provides the legal basis for the College of Policing to set standards for the police in England and Wales. This is the first of a number of provisions relating to the college and I think it would be helpful to explain some of the context for them.

The ability of the police to fight crime depends, for the most part, on the skills and abilities of the brave men and women who serve as police officers and police staff. As I glance around the House, I note several noble Lords who can speak with great experience and expertise of that area. The threats police officers and police staff must deal with on a daily basis are significant. Neither the Government nor the police can afford to neglect training and development. To do so jeopardises the safety of all our communities.

The arrangements this Government inherited were insufficient. Although the National Police Improvement Agency had responsibility for police training, its remit was too broad and its work too complex for it to deliver effectively for the police and the public. Given the severity of the threat the police and public face, the Government believe that a more focused set of arrangements are required. Part of those requirements involves the creation of the professional body for the police—the College of Policing.

The College of Policing’s mission will be to support the fight against crime and protect the public by ensuring professionalism at all levels in policing. It will do this through delivery in five core areas of responsibility. Those areas include: setting standards of professional practice; accrediting training providers and setting learning and development outcomes; identifying, developing and promoting good practice based on evidence; supporting police forces and other organisations to work together to protect the public and prevent crime; and identifying, developing and promoting ethics, values and standards of integrity.

The Government intend that the creation of the college should cement the status of the police as a profession. As a profession, the police will need to take greater responsibility for setting standards. Too often, those standards have been led by government. Clause 110 changes this balance. The clause provides that in future regulations regarding rank, qualifications for appointment and promotion, service on probation and personal records for police officers and special constables will be prepared by the college. The college will also prepare regulations relating to training for police officers and qualifications for deployment to particular roles. Finally, if the college believes it to be necessary, it can also prepare regulations regarding police practice or procedure.

As my right honourable friend the Home Secretary will continue to make these regulations and will continue to be accountable to Parliament for them, she will retain a right of veto. This power will be exercised if the regulations prepared by the college would impair the efficiency and effectiveness of the police, would be unlawful, or would for some other reason be wrong. This final power of veto may be used where the regulations as drafted are flawed, insufficiently clear or do not achieve the policy intention that the college hopes to achieve. In such circumstances the Home

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Secretary could ask the college to prepare a fresh draft of the regulations so as not to present flawed regulations before Parliament.

As I am sure noble Lords are aware, the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has commented on this clause. Indeed, it has issued an additional report which was published only this morning. The Government are most grateful to the committee for both its reports and we have already dealt with a number of amendments that implement its recommendations. As with its other recommendations, we have given careful consideration to the committee’s points about the delegation of the Home Secretary’s regulation-making powers as provided for in Clause 110.

The Government agree with the committee that regulations made under Section 53A of the Police Act 1996, governing the practices and procedures of police forces, should be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure in all cases. Police practice and procedure are matters of legitimate public concern. We all have an interest in the way that police officers go about their duty and it is only right that Parliament is able to scrutinise the work of the college in this area.

The Bill proposes to give the college two powers regarding standards of police practice and procedure. First, it proposes to give it a power to issue statutory codes of practice under Section 39A of the Police Act 1996. In the event that the college exercises this power, chief constables must have regard to any such code. Secondly, the Bill proposes to give the college a power to make changes to police regulations concerning practice and procedure. The Government believe that, in the event that the college wishes to make matters of police practice or procedure mandatory, Parliament should have the opportunity to debate and approve such regulations before they come into force. We have accordingly put forward Amendments 56P and 56Q.

6.30 pm

However, in respect of regulations under Sections 50 and 51 of the Police Act 1996 and Section 97 of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001, the Government believe that the negative resolution procedure should continue to apply. These regulations relate to limited aspects of the governance, administration and conditions of service of police forces and to police training. These are more akin to regulations on pay and discipline, which are subject to the negative resolution procedure. There is no need for regulations prepared by the college to receive an enhanced level of parliamentary scrutiny when regulations made under the same powers on matters of at least equal significance, such as police pay, do not. Moreover, there may be occasions where such regulations need to be made quickly, and the application of the affirmative procedure would preclude that.

The Delegated Powers Committee was particularly concerned about the regulation-making power in Section 53A of the 1996 Act. We believe that making those regulations subject to the affirmative procedure largely addresses that concern.

The Government have always been clear about the importance of the College of Policing being independent of central government. The Government have taken a

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number of decisions that have allowed the college to operate independently since its creation, and we will work with the college to explore its longer-term ambition of securing a royal charter. However, there are several steps to be taken before active consideration can be given to helping the college to succeed in that aim. In particular, the college needs to reduce its reliance on central government for funding, raising more of its revenue itself through trading.

Although the college is independent, the Government believe that there are some areas where it should be accountable to Parliament. I have already spoken about the role that Parliament will play in the event that the college chooses to exercise the powers that the Bill proposes to confer on it regarding police regulations. I should now like to spend some time focusing on another area where I believe there should be increased scrutiny by Parliament: the college’s ability to charge fees.

As noble Lords will be aware, the college already has the powers that it needs to trade through its existence as a company limited by guarantee. However, Amendment 56QZA extends the college’s accountability to Parliament for some of the products and services that it will sell which may be considered services of a public nature. The proposed new clause would allow the Home Secretary to specify the categories of such services in secondary legislation—for example, examinations for sergeants and inspectors. As with the provisions relating to the standards that the college will set, this provision will continue to remain in place even if the college succeeds in its aim of gaining a royal charter. This amendment would ensure that there was proper ministerial and parliamentary oversight of the college’s charging framework. It would also ensure that the college was able to develop commercially so that it could thrive as the independent professional body for the police.

For the reasons I have set out, I commend Clause 110 and these amendments to the Committee.

Baroness Thornton: I gave notice of my opposition to the Question that Clause 110 stand part, and I did so for probing purposes. I am still not clear that the Government are fulfilling the recommendations of the Delegated Powers Committee. I accept that the Minister addressed himself to the first report of the committee but I think I am right in saying that it is very unusual—it may never have happened before—that the Delegated Powers Committee has twice recommended to the Government that regulations should be subject to the affirmative procedure, and I should like clarification on that.

Clause 110 amends provisions which confer these powers to make regulations relating to the police. I listened to what the noble Lord said but I am not completely clear that the regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure. In paragraph 5 of its report produced today, the Delegated Powers Committee said that,

“we remain of the view that, if the House considers it appropriate to transfer control of the content of the regulations to the College of Policing, the regulations should in all cases be subject to the affirmative procedure”.

I am still not sure whether that is the case. If I am right that the Government have made some regulations

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subject to the affirmative procedure but not these, then that is a cause for some discussion and concern. If I am wrong, I apologise to the Committee.

Secondly, I seek some explanation of the wording that has already been referred to by the noble Lord. In new subsection (2ZA) introduced under Clause 110(1), paragraph (c) says that,

“it would for some other reason be wrong to do so”,

in relation to the Secretary of State’s right of veto. Therefore, the Secretary of State is giving with one hand and taking away with the other. My honourable friend David Hanson raised the same question in the House of Commons. It seems contradictory, and I should like the Minister to explain to the Committee why the Government reached that view.

I want to make one other point in relation to the noble Lord’s final remarks. He said that the College of Policing will be subject to further scrutiny concerning its fees and other matters, as well as its financial and commercial viability. I just want to ask how on earth the Minister thinks that being accountable to Parliament for one’s financial and commercial viability will work.

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, regarding the noble Baroness’s first set of questions, she is indeed correct. I mentioned that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee had issued a second report. She quoted from paragraph 5 of that report. Earlier on in that paragraph, the committee says:

“The Government have accepted this recommendation in so far as it relates to regulations under section 53A of the Police Act 1996”.

I believe that that was very clear from the points that I made. She then asked which regulations remain under the negative procedure, and perhaps I may expand on that a bit more. We have said that in respect of regulations under Sections 50 and 51 of the Police Act 1996 and Section 97 of the Criminal Justice and Police Act 2001 the Government believe that the negative resolution procedure should apply, and I shall expand on that.

These regulations relate to limited aspects of the governance, administration and conditions of service of police forces and to police training. Clearly, as I said earlier, these matters do not have the same level of sensitivity and public interest as police practices and procedures. During debate on an earlier amendment, the noble Baroness referred to the fact that she has been in your Lordships’ House far longer than I have, and I am sure she can relate to the fact that no regulations have been made in relation to training since Section 97 of the 2001 Act came into force and that the existing regulations under Sections 50 and 51 of the 1996 Act concerning ranks, appointments, promotion and personal records have been the subject of limited and infrequent amendment.

These essentially administrative matters are more akin to regulations on pay and discipline, which are also made under Sections 50 and 51 of the Police Act 1996, and are subject to the negative resolution procedure. There is no need for regulations prepared by the college to receive an enhanced level of parliamentary scrutiny, when regulations made under the same powers on matters of at least equal significance, such as police pay, do not. The negative procedure has

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worked effectively for many years on all these issues without any difficulty. It seems right and proportionate to maintain those uniform arrangements going forward. That does not of course mean that we cannot rule out the possibility that the regulations might need to be made quickly. Therefore, the affirmative resolution procedure would make that more difficult. Typically, that would occur in response to some unforeseen emergency, a change to our international obligations, a court decision that existing regulations are unlawful or the discovery of some error in the regulations that requires particular correction.

The noble Baroness also talked about my right honourable friend the Home Secretary retaining the power of veto for any other reason and the reasons for that. The information on when it may be wrong to make regulations for any other reason are set out in the Explanatory Notes, to which I refer the noble Baroness. It covers circumstances in which the regulation, as drafted, is not sufficiently clear, as I said earlier, is flawed or would not achieve the policy intention for which the college had hoped. In such circumstances the Home Secretary could ask the college to prepare a fresh draft so as not to present flawed regulations before Parliament.

In proposing what they are, the Government have struck the right balance, which ensures sufficient scrutiny by Parliament and supports oversight by the Home Secretary, if required. I commend the amendment to the Committee.

Amendment 56P agreed.

Amendment 56Q agreed.

Clause 110, as amended, agreed.

Clauses 111 to 113 agreed.

Amendment 56QZA agreed.

Clause 114 agreed.

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Clause 115: Disclosure of information to the College

Debate on whether Clause 115 should stand part of the Bill.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, I am taking this opportunity to ask the Minister, who knows about my question, whether Clause 115 has the effect which it seems to me to have. The new section which is to be inserted into the Police Act will provide for powers to anyone to disclose information to the College of Policing where this is,

“for the purposes of the exercise by the College of any of its functions”.

Will the Data Protection Act be overridden in its entirety by this provision? What checks, possibility of challenge and possibility of complaint will there be? Is there any proportionality, propriety and so on? I am sure that I will be told that there is a difference between the college’s functions and its powers but I am not clear about the extent of this clause, which seems to be very wide.

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I take it that my noble friend’s comments primarily were probing. Clause 115 provides the basis of information-sharing agreements between individuals and the College of Policing. In order for the college to fulfil its objectives it will need, from time to time, to have access to certain information. This information could cover a range of issues, including information about data in support of its work on the effectiveness of policing practice, data to inform the standards it sets for police officers and staff, and information that will help it produce the standards of ethics and values for the police. For example, as part of the college’s work to develop standards and ethics for the police, it may need information from the IPCC about its investigations and some of the lessons it has learned from the conduct of police officers. This information will be general and it should not be necessary for the IPCC to share information that would enable the college or its staff to identify individual police officers. I hope that noble Lords agree that it is important for the IPCC and other public authorities to have a clear legal power to share this valuable information with the college.

6.45 pm

Noble Lords will be aware that public authorities can act only within the scope of the powers given to them by legislation. It is therefore necessary for them to have clear statutory powers to share information. This clause will ensure that every organisation that would not otherwise have the power to disclose information to the college has a power to do so. However, it does not absolve those organisations, or the college, from their legal duties in relation to the sharing of information, which was a particular issue that I raised vis-à-vis the Data Protection Act. The Data Protection Act provisions on the processing of personal data, the right to privacy under the European Convention on Human Rights and the common-law duty of confidentiality are not affected by this clause.

This enabling power ensures that organisations which may wish to share information with the college are able to do so. We have not specified those organisations

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or the information that they may need to share in the Bill. We want the college, working together with the police, to determine how it can best deliver its objectives. That should include allowing it the freedom to identify the organisations with which it will work and how it wants those organisations to support its delivery. This clause will enable the college to do so successfully. In that explanation, I hope that I have addressed the questions raised by my noble friend and, if she is satisfied, that noble Lords will agree that the clause stands part of the Bill.

Baroness Hamwee: Of course, at this stage I am probing. Anything more comes later. I understand to an extent the purpose of the clause, which is to give powers. Perhaps it is a failure of my imagination but I am not clear as to what sort of information the college might require to be disclosed. I will look at what my noble friend has said. As I have said, this seems to be a very wide clause. I will have to do some work on this after today but I am not clear on how the restrictions to which my noble friend has referred would work in this connection. For the moment, I am left with one question. Has the Information Commissioner specifically been consulted about this clause?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: I suggest that between Committee and Report I meet my noble friend to address her specific concerns, which I hope will help with clarity and understanding at the next stage.

Lord Harris of Haringey: Does the noble Baroness agree that it might be helpful if the Minister, in writing to her, sets out a precise list of what is required and explains why it would not be possible for that list to be laid in regulations so that it is clear what information is being referred to? The way in which it is written at the moment seems extraordinarily broad.

Baroness Hamwee: I agree with that. I was going to press my noble friend a little on whether the Information Commissioner has been consulted. I hoped that there might be time for inspiration to flow across half the length of the Chamber but I do not think that it has.

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: While inspiration may be somewhat limited, I take on board the noble Lord’s suggestion. As I have said, I will suggest a meeting to address some of the concerns.

Clause 115 agreed.

Clauses 116 to 118 agreed.

Schedule 6 agreed.

Clause 119: Consultation about regulations: England and Wales

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments 56QZC and 56QZD, which are on the same issue. Clause 119 deals with consultation on regulations about hours, leave or pay.

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My amendment, which is probing at this stage, would remove the provision whereby the duty on the Secretary of State,

“to consider advice from the Senior Salaries Review Body or to refer the matter to the Police Remuneration Review Body does not apply if the Secretary of State considers that”,

the matter is so urgent that there is not enough time, or the nature of the proposed regulations makes it unnecessary to undertake that. The duty is to “consider” advice rather than consult, so perhaps the message goes out but one does not wait to receive responses.

In my mind, this boils down to hours, leave and pay. What can be so urgent about these matters that the Secretary of State should not have to undertake process? If they are minor, the SSRB and the PRRB can say so. Indeed, if they are urgent, the two bodies could say, “We appreciate the urgency but we simply do not have time to deal with this”. The provision in new Section 52A(5) is a check on the Secretary of State, so I am concerned that it may be sidelined. The other amendments in this group are with regard to the Northern Ireland Secretary and the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for the opportunity to address this important safety mechanism in the functioning of the Police Remuneration Review Body. The provisions that my noble friend’s amendment would delete from the Bill are intended to be used in only two instances. The first is if a matter is so urgent there is not enough time for the Secretary of State or the Northern Ireland Minister of Justice to consult the review body, which is of course not in constant session. To illustrate that, the Government have in mind a time of national emergency—for instance, ongoing, widespread rioting, or co-ordinated terrorist attacks across the country, or even, because we must always plan for every eventuality, at a time of war. There might be, for example, an alternative process for arranging officers’ shift patterns, or officers might be called to take on special duties that we could not foresee but which might be critical to the national response to an emergency, and for which we would want them, rightly, to be compensated.

Secondly, the provisions that my noble friend has drawn to our attention are intended to be used in situations where it would be unnecessary to consult the review body on a matter. For example, if a minor drafting error in the regulations needed to be corrected it would be inefficient and unnecessary to have to consult the Police Remuneration Review Body before correcting the error. Similarly, if there was an uncontroversial change to employment law that did not automatically apply to police officers by virtue of their unique employment status, of which noble Lords will be aware, we would want to amend regulations to reflect this change in the law without reference to the review body.

We added this power specifically in response to comments by policing partners, including the Police Federation and the Police Superintendents’ Association, that they would be concerned that not being able to make police regulations without reference to the body, in certain circumstances, could actually make the system more cumbersome. We believe that this provision addresses that concern.

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I should conclude my comments on this proposed amendment by noting that in all cases, regardless of whether the review body is consulted or not, a draft of the proposed changes must be supplied to all interested parties before any changes are made, and this includes the opportunity for interested parties to make any representations. Therefore, neither the Secretary of State nor the Northern Ireland Minister of Justice would ever make changes to police officer remuneration in a vacuum, and would always have the input of representatives of police officers and those responsible for maintaining police forces. I hope in the light of my explanations that my noble friend will be able to withdraw her amendment.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, it is helpful to have that explanation on the record. On the point about hours, leave and so on in the event of a national emergency—I believe that “national emergency” is being used in a rather non-technical, wide sense—I had assumed that the terms and conditions of the regulations already allowed for the flexibility needed for the circumstances referred to by my noble friend. That is no doubt naivety on my part. As to whether something is necessary, I simply say that it can be a matter of judgment. That is why I thought it was important to understand what was meant here. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 56QZB withdrawn.

Clause 119 agreed.

Clause 120: Consultation about regulations: Northern Ireland

Amendments 56QZC and 56QZD not moved.

Clause 120 agreed.

Baroness Doocey (LD): My Lords, in moving this amendment, I shall speak also to Amendments 56QZF and 56QZG. The object of these amendments is to strengthen the independence and transparency of the IPCC. They would do so by increasing the proportion of independent investigations carried out by the IPCC, reducing the proportion of IPCC investigators who are former police officers and requiring the IPCC to report annually to Parliament.

Amendment 56QZE would require that, in the case of serious complaints, the IPCC would carry out the majority of investigations itself. To maintain the culture of policing by consent, there must always be an effective response to valid complaints and the public rightly expect independence and transparency in the investigation of such complaints. But last year, just one in 17 of the

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serious cases referred to the IPCC resulted in an independent investigation. I am sure that that is not what Parliament intended when the IPCC was set up, nor will this approach maintain public trust and confidence.

The House of Commons Home Affairs Committee considered the work of the IPCC on two occasions, most recently in January this year. Its report highlighted concerns about the independence of the IPCC’s investigations and the impact on its work of a high caseload and restricted resources. The IPCC has itself accepted that it must take on more independent investigations, and the Government have assisted it to do so by providing additional funding. Can the Minister indicate how much additional money it is to receive? The amendment seeks to ensure that, in future, the majority of serious complaints are independently investigated by the IPCC.

7 pm

Amendment 56QZF addresses the problem of the number of IPCC investigators who are former or seconded police officers. This practice leaves the IPCC open to the charge that, even for the most serious complaints, it is actually the police investigating the police. The amendment would limit to just 25% the proportion of IPCC investigators who come from a police background. It would also prohibit the appointment of any former police officer to the important post of director of investigations of the IPCC.

The IPCC’s own annual report for 2011/12 reported that all of its senior investigators, plus half of its deputy senior investigators and one-third of its investigators, are former police officers or police civilians. For the investigation staff as a whole, the proportion coming from a police background was reported to be 43%. Furthermore, the IPCC’s current director of investigations is a former Metropolitan Police commander. This is a very significant post which requires absolute independence. I acknowledge that these former police officers bring valuable experience and skills to the job but, unfortunately, they also compromise the IPCC’s independence.

The additional funds that are to be given to the IPCC should enable the recruitment of new investigators from different disciplines outside policing. While the IPCC might need the skills of former police officers in the short term, the need to employ them should be greatly reduced in the long run. The amendment accordingly proposes that not more than one-quarter of IPCC investigating staff should have a police background and that it should be led by a director of investigations who does not have such a background. The amendment sets a deadline of 1 January 2017—three years hence—for these targets to be achieved.

Amendment 56QZG is intended to maintain the drive for independence in the IPCC by improving its reporting requirements. The Police Reform Act 2002 already requires the IPCC to make an annual report to the Home Secretary on the carrying out of its functions during the year. The amendment would require the IPCC to also report to Parliament on moves to strengthen its independence. This would include the volume of independent investigations carried out, the number of investigators employed who have not served in the police, any other work to strengthen the IPCC’s

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independence and any changes to its responsibilities during the year. The amendment would ensure that greater exposure to the work of the IPCC is achieved through the mechanism of clear, annual reporting requirements. I beg to move.

Lord Harris of Haringey: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, for tabling this amendment. I have put my name to it because I want to probe the Government on their exact intentions and the timescales for the changes and improvements to the IPCC that the Home Secretary has announced. I note with interest that this debate is now being observed by four former Commissioners of the Metropolitan Police. I cannot recall a previous instance when all four have been in the Chamber simultaneously and, as a consequence, I suspect that the Minister ought to be afraid, very afraid, about either this amendment or a subsequent one.

We need to consider this important amendment—and I look forward to the ministerial response—because it goes to the core of how we can have confidence and trust in the police service. The public want to be satisfied that, when things go wrong, their concern has been properly investigated in an independent, thorough, robust and timely manner. If it is a serious matter which may lead to criminal charges, or dismissal of officers or whatever else, that process must be above rebuke and there must be no question of bias or anything else.

I have a lot of confidence in the chair of the Independent Police Complaints Commission, Dame Anne Owers, who is working very hard to improve the capacity and capability of the IPCC. The Government, having initially not quite recognised the importance of this body, have now changed their position but we need some clarity on how quickly things are going to move. Having trust in the processes followed by the IPCC is a necessary component of having trust in the police themselves. Whether or not the police have the consent of the public is called into question unless the public can have confidence that their complaints are being investigated adequately and independently.

These amendments would, first, ensure that most investigations—particularly serious ones—are carried out by staff who are not, nor have ever been, police officers themselves. Secondly, they reduce the number of investigations delegated to another police force or to the police force itself under investigation. Thirdly, they ask the IPCC to report regularly on its progress. However, we have heard that the Home Secretary intends to increase the resources available to the IPCC. As I understand it, it is not intended to transfer officers from police forces into the IPCC but to give them new resources. What are the timescales for these changes? What do the Government expect to see happen? Do the Government accept the principle that the proportion of investigations carried out by people who have not previously been police officers should increase?

There is a general belief that, when it is a serious matter, things are swept under the carpet and I am afraid that some recent revelations and crises have not helped this. It is therefore important that clarity is

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given and that people have confidence that this is not just about the police investigating themselves. Noble Lords in this Committee may be very clear that this is not about a police officer who knows the individual under investigation and who is therefore investigating their mate’s performance. At the moment, the IPCC has all sorts of measures in place to avoid that being the case, but the public perception is that complaints are being investigated by current or former police officers and it is assumed that the police are investigating themselves. This amendment is important because we need clarity that there is genuine independence, and that those concerned are not former police officers who, it may be asserted—probably wrongly—know the individuals or are part of the same culture about which someone has complained.

The Minister will, no doubt, have a whole series of technical points on why this amendment is not quite right or does not work. He does not: that is even better. We can agree it tonight and that will be very good. It is important to understand the direction of travel, how quickly we are moving there and how we will see the sort of independence which will give confidence in the complaints process and, in turn, enable the police to move back to a position of public trust.

Lord Condon: My Lords, during my time as commissioner, I argued strongly for a fully independent and well resourced police investigation process. I have maintained that position since my retirement and I entirely support the motivation behind these amendments. However, I have concerns that Amendment 56QZF, in particular, is too prescriptive in the timescale available and that the notion of having 75% of investigators with a non-police background by January 2017 might, perversely, have the reverse effect of its intention. If it is a prescriptive requirement to get to that point, it may be tempting to employ people as investigators who are not adequately trained or have the right background to investigate these most serious and complex allegations. While admiring the intentions behind these amendments, I have concerns about the practicality of the timescales. I urge caution about such a prescriptive requirement.

Lord Paddick: My Lords, I will add to the comments of previous noble Lords in support of my noble friend Lady Doocey and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey. As I said earlier, 30 years’ experience in the Metropolitan Police left me wondering whether the Independent Police Complaints Commission was truly independent. We have seen recent cases where the IPCC has not only apparently not been particularly independent but has not understood when a case is serious. It was only after officers had given evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee about the meeting between the former Chief Whip and Police Federation officers that the IPCC decided that the case was serious enough to take on as an independent investigation rather than referring it back to the police to investigate themselves.

Another less well known case is that of former officers in the Metropolitan Police who have complained about the way in which the Directorate of Professional Standards conducted an investigation against them.

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A complaint made to the IPCC was referred back to the Directorate of Professional Standards in the Metropolitan Police for it to investigate itself, which does not give much confidence to members of the public that things are being independently investigated. Clearly, having a former constable as the director of investigations—somebody who is controlling how investigations are carried out—does not appear to me to inspire confidence in the public that the IPCC is independent.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Condon; bearing in mind that he used to be my boss, it would be rude of me not to agree with him, and I notice nods from the other former commissioners who are in their place. However, I will say that I spent 15 years in uniform and was made an instant detective chief inspector overnight, such was the need at a certain time in the history of the Metropolitan Police. I received a visit some weeks later from my detective chief superintendent, who said, “Now you know what the secret is”—that there is really nothing much to being a detective.

I agree that the timescale set out in my noble friend Lady Doocey’s amendment may be ambitious but it is something that we need to aspire to in order give the public confidence. I am sure that there are people in other walks of life, such as former customs officers, who have not only the skills but the experience to investigate these sorts of issues. People who have not had previous experience of investigations could be given the necessary training to carry out effective investigations into alleged police malpractice.

Lord Tyler (LD): My Lords, I apologise to my noble friend Lady Doocey for not being present for the first minute or so of her speech. She caught me out by moving faster than I anticipated and I apologise, too, if she made this point, about the general reputation of the police service. I have some past experience, as a member of a police authority for some six years and then as constituency Member of Parliament. I had to deal with not only the police service but occasionally of course, unfortunately, with the IPCC as well.

The police service itself would welcome a greater sense of independence from the IPCC because there is a perception—we all know in politics that the perception is very often more important than the reality—that there is an overcosy relationship between the police service and the IPCC that is almost incestuous. The case that has been made on all sides of the Committee for reinforcing the IPCC’s degree of independence is extremely important, not just for the reputation of the IPCC itself but for the overall reputation of the whole police service, which, as we all know today, is questionable. It is sad to say but, for those of us who rate the police service very highly and have a great respect for it, its reputation for integrity is not as great as we would like it to be. There would be support from within the service for a greater sense of independence between the IPCC and police officers themselves. On that basis, I hope there will be a very sympathetic response from the Minister.

7.15 pm

Lord Blair of Boughton (CB): My Lords, I will follow my noble friend Lord Condon, in particular on the suggested new clause calling for a 75% figure in

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three years.

Before that, having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, I will say that I now envy my noble friend Lord Condon as I, too, was the boss of the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, and he did not stop disagreeing with me.

The 75% figure represents a very noble direction of travel. That is what we need to get to, but getting to it in three years will water down the IPCC’s skills and potentially damage its reputation. In particular, I take issue with something that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said about the skills of senior and other investigators. All three of the commissioners on this particular Bench, and, I am sure, the noble Lord, Lord Imbert, will recognise the skill needed to be a senior investigating officer leading a major inquiry into police corruption or malfeasance. It needs the skills of somebody who has led serious investigations into something else before. The skill set is just not out there among people who are not police officers—there are very few investigative agencies with the level of skill to lead that complex an inquiry. We must not set targets here that end up damaging the ability of the IPCC to carry out independent investigations.

Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington (CB): My Lords, I will just add my comments to those of my noble friends Lord Condon and Lord Blair and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. Obviously, the Independent Police Complaints Commission should be independent, and noble Lords may be aware of the views of the commission that I chaired recently on the combination of the inspectorate and the Independent Police Complaints Commission itself. Putting that aside, it was fascinating to take evidence from the head of the IPCC, Anne Owers, and to see her recently for a couple of hours to talk about issues and realise how underresourced she is. Credit must be given to the Government that they have recognised that.

Along with my noble friends Lord Condon and Lord Blair, and my old colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, I just call for a little caution. Having led inquiries in difficult places such as Northern Ireland for 15 to 20 years, I know that you need the experience and the expertise. The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, is absolutely right that the IPCC has to be seen to be independent, but let us gradually work towards that. To train people up to the required level takes an awful lot of experience. In addition, this is not just about training but about having your feet on the ground, understanding how the systems work, building up a team and delivering something that is useful to the police service and, more importantly, to the complainant. Noble Lords should make no mistake about it: the IPCC needs support, needs resources and needs reforming. It has a massive job to do and I would not like to see it have the rug drawn from underneath its feet in terms of experience and delivery.

Lord Rosser: My Lords, I will be very brief. I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey, and my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey for tabling these amendments. Clearly, their principal purpose is not so much to be specific but to provide the welcome opportunity to hear from the Minister what the Government’s future intentions are in relation to the

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IPCC, particularly concerning its independence. Very important comments were made by the noble Lords, Lord Blair and Lord Stevens, about the need to ensure that there are suitably qualified people within the IPCC to carry out the investigations that are needed. We, too, hope that the Minister will be able to indicate how the Government see the future of the IPCC, in particular what changes and objectives they are seeking for the IPCC in the years ahead.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, when we discussed police integrity last Thursday, I felt that there was a degree of unanimity in the House. In the debate that we have just had on these amendments, there was also a degree of unanimity, certainly with regard to the direction of travel that we want to see the IPCC adopt. We had a very good debate last week, initiated by my noble friend Lord Paddick, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Doocey for the contribution she made to that debate, and for tabling these amendments today.

As the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and my noble friend Lord Tyler said, we need to address perception as well as reality. The IPCC confidence survey reported that 85% trusted it to handle police complaints impartially but we cannot be complacent in our drive to rebuild the IPCC as a truly independent body.

In connection with Amendment 56QZE, noble Lords will be aware that the Government are transferring resources to the IPCC to enable it to undertake all serious and sensitive investigations—an intention that is entirely consistent with my noble friend Lady Doocey’s amendment. An announcement will be made shortly, in line with the police annual settlement process, on the level of those resources. I can assure noble Lords that the expansion of the IPCC is on track and it will begin to take on more cases from next year.

However, in requiring the IPCC to carry out “the majority of investigations”, the amendment does not specify the nature of those investigations. My noble friend Lady Doocey talked about serious investigations and that is probably what she intends the amendment to deal with. Of course, some complaints made against the police are best dealt with at local level. We will still have the police investigating the police at a local level; for example, where it is a matter of service levels or a lack of civility. But I think we can all see that with the more serious investigations the IPCC must independently be in a position to investigate those matters.

As a Lincolnshire man, I am finely tuned to poachers and gamekeepers. As regards Amendment 56QZF, I note that my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Harris, are anticipating our direction of travel. I appreciate that the requirement for the director of investigations to be someone who has not held the office of constable in the United Kingdom would seem to provide a stronger guarantee of independence. However, I question how the public’s best interests would be served by the IPCC having to dismiss someone who currently performs this function effectively and impartially; indeed, I am doubtful whether this would even be possible under current employment law.

I am with the noble Lords, Lord Condon, Lord Blair and Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, on this issue. We need a skills base within the IPCC if it is to

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be able to perform the task we expect of it. Similarly, the target—and it is a target, even though the Government have all but forsworn targets—of at least 75% of those employed as investigators by the IPCC being from non-police backgrounds by January 2017 is intended to address concerns about impartiality.

However, this amendment overlooks the steps the IPCC has already taken to ensure a diverse and multidisciplinary staff, and the training scheme aimed at those from a range of backgrounds. It is worth noting that according to the latest published figures, the proportion of investigatory and caseworking staff with a background in policing is below 16%. Of course, what is most important is the way in which all IPCC staff work and their commitment to the values and culture of the organisation. I am sure that the noble Lords, Lord Condon, Lord Blair and Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington—and, I hope, the noble Lord, Lord Imbert—share these sentiments. It is good to have such a distinguished group of former Met commissioners participating in this debate. I am sure they will agree that it is the culture of the organisation that dominates the way in which it responds to its independent role.

Moving to Amendment 56QZG, I can see that for the Home Secretary to receive annual figures on the proportion of staff from non-police backgrounds, and the number and nature of their investigations, would provide a degree of detail and certainty as to operational conditions within the IPCC. However, the commission already has a statutory duty to report to the Home Secretary on the carrying out of its functions each year. It already publishes details of the organisation and its investigations in its annual report and in annual statistics. I can see no benefit from prescribing the content of the annual reports in the way that the amendment seeks to do. Indeed, it might be suggested that that is not a very independent thing for the Independent Police Complaints Commission to be asked to do. I know that is not what my noble friend intends but it would certainly add to the bureaucratic burden of the organisation.

Having said that, I agree with my noble friend that the IPCC must be independent and be seen to be independent. In the light of my comments, I hope that she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

Lord Imbert (CB): My Lords, as the only other former commissioner here, I feel that I should add my support to their concern about the date.

I have often been told that the best way to catch a slippery officer—one who is corrupt, rude or has no integrity and lies—is to set an experienced, crafty detective chief superintendent, who is honest and full of integrity, to catch him. He knows the moves that that corrupt officer is going to take. It is this experience that I fear we will lose, but we must, in order to show the public that the IPCC is absolutely independent. I agree with the points that have been made about that, and with the noble Baroness, Lady Doocey.

However if we put that date on it, I fear that the IPCC, in its endeavours to get to the position where 75% are non-former constables of the United Kingdom—I hope that that means anywhere, including Australia, Canada, America or wherever—may well select people,

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whether ex-Customs, military or whoever, who do not have the experience or the time to train properly to catch a corrupt police officer. The date is far too soon. Let the IPPC select people who will make first-class investigators; let us not rush it, please.

7.30 pm

Baroness Hamwee: Before my noble friend responds, perhaps I may add to the list of things that she might want to mention. As I understand it—I would be interested to know whether I read this correctly—my noble friend seeks a spread of experience. Points can be made about the date and the percentage, but what is important, apart from independence and the perception of independence, is that good practice—there is a lot of it among the police, but it is not confined to the police—could be spread to the non-police investigators and, conversely, that experience from elsewhere might be shared with those who have that professional background.

The last time that I took even the slightest issue with the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, somebody said to me, “Watch it, they’ll all have your car registration number”. However, I drive so slowly as perhaps to be a problem in that way.

We are trying to get to a good mix. Nobody exclusively has the right experience or the right way to approach these matters.

Baroness Doocey: My Lords, I thank the Minister—my noble friend the listening Minister—for his positive response. I confirm that I was referring to serious cases —he was right about that—not the cases that should rightly be dealt with at a lower level. I apologise to the House if I did not make that entirely clear.

I am delighted that the Minister has confirmed that, in future, all serious cases will be investigated independently by the IPCC. That is very important. Everyone who has made comments agrees that it is important that the IPCC is not just independent but seen by the public to be to be independent. We can all agree on that.

However, I am concerned about the issue of a date. To me, the words “direction of travel” mean, “Kick it into the long grass”. It would be sad if that happened. I understand the experience of noble Lords who have spoken, and it may well be that the date that I chose is too soon, but there must be a date as a cut-off point. If there is not, it could go on and on; that would be very wrong. We must deal with this issue of the perception of the police investigating the police. That will continue as long as the vast majority of investigators are former or seconded police officers.

Having said that, I have no desire for the IPCC to lose very good officers who are doing a very good job and who have experience. The issue is not to throw the baby out with the bath water. There is time for us to modify my proposal, which the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, has agreed that we should do. With that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 56QZE withdrawn.

Amendments 56QZF and 56QZG not moved.

House resumed. Committee to begin again not before 8.35 pm.

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Female Genital Mutilation

Question for Short Debate

7.35 pm

Asked by Baroness Cox

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they are addressing issues relating to female genital mutilation.

Baroness Cox (CB): My Lords, I am deeply grateful to all noble Lords contributing to this debate on a subject which is of the utmost gravity in its implications for appalling and avoidable suffering of millions of girls and women today. I am delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, is speaking, as her tireless endeavours to address that barbaric practice are widely appreciated.

My deep concern originated when I was working as a nurse, implementing an immunisation programme in a remote desert area in Sudan in the 1980s. I will never forget my horror when I first saw FGM—the extent of mutilation and the unbelievable legacy of the remaining tiny aperture with complications of utmost severity for micturition, menstruation, sexual intercourse, risks of haemorrhage, increased risks to mother and baby during childbirth, depression, post-traumatic stress and other mental health problems. I will never forget the screams of young girls in the village when they were taken into the bush at night to undergo the excruciating cutting, often with a rusty knife or broken glass, with thorns for sutures.

Together with my noble friend Lady Masham, who regrets that she is unable to take part in this debate, we supported the late Lady Jeger and Lord Winstanley in the introduction of the first Bill to outlaw FGM in this country in 1985. Earlier this year, when I re-engaged with the issue, I was profoundly shocked to learn that FGM has continued unabated, with an estimated 100 million to 140 million girls and women globally who have undergone FGM; and approximately 3 million girls are currently at risk of undergoing FGM each year in Africa.

In England and Wales, despite the 1985 Act, extended in 2003, in 2001 approximately 66,000 women had undergone FGM and 24,000 British girls under the age of 18 were at risk. That number is doubtless below the real figure, because many go to secret clinics or suffer in silence.

FGM is a very severe form of violence against girls and women, and of child abuse. Despite commendable actions by police forces—for example, Project Azure by the Metropolitan Police and Operation Sentinel by the West Midlands Police—and the action plan launched by the CPS in November 2012, there have still been no prosecutions for FGM in this country.

I pay tribute to anti-FGM campaigners such as Daughters of Eve, Equality Now and 28 Too Many for pressing for urgent remedial policies. Media coverage, including news reports, documentaries and the BBC television “Casualty” series have raised levels of public concern. FGM survivors, such as the brave young women speaking out in the recent TV documentary “The Cruel Cut” on Channel 4, are calling for those responsible for FGM to be held to account to protect future generations of girls.

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I highlight the excellent report by an intercollegiate group comprising the RCM, the RCN, the RCOG, the Community Practitioners’ and Health Visitors’ Association and Equality Now, which makes important recommendations for Her Majesty’s Government and other stakeholders to develop a long-term strategy for treating FGM as a crime, with systematic and co-ordinated policies using health, social care, education and the police.

Protection requires early identification of baby girls, especially those born to mothers who have undergone FGM, as high-risk cases; their referral by health professionals as a child-safeguarding obligation to social care; and a follow-up plan to include education, counselling and support for parents. Sadly, the joined-up work needed to track such girls at risk is not happening. Except for emergency one-off cases where a girl is identified as being at risk of imminent FGM, referrals to social services are often dropped as they are deemed not to meet the threshold for assessment, and a care plan is not put into place.

Another weak link is in the education system. Most FGM occurs during a girl’s time at primary school. Teachers are expected to play a key role in protecting children from abuse, as they are able to detect warning signs and pupils may turn to them before contacting the police or social services. But in a recent YouGov survey for the NSPCC, 83% of the 1,000 teachers surveyed said they had not been given any training about FGM. Education about FGM should also be a compulsory element of personal, social, health and economic education, starting with primary-age children, because girls at risk need to be aware of the danger before they reach the most vulnerable age, which is between eight and 14 years old, to enable them to seek help, protection and prevention. FGM is a form of brutal child abuse and a crime, but the police cannot build a case for prosecution if they are not informed and there is currently widespread failure to refer.

I turn briefly to the crucial issue of support for survivors. As the number of people from countries where FGM is practised increases in the UK, there is an urgent need for policies to ensure access to support services and referral protocols between health, social care and other key services. This requires mandatory training and reporting requirements as well as a fundamental change of attitudes towards so-called cultural sensitivity and multiculturalism. There are far too many deeply disturbing cases where victims who have looked for help have been refused protection and support because of respect for local cultural traditions. We surely should never have allowed tenets of multiculturalism to take precedence over the law of the land, especially when the cultural practices being condoned are manifestly forms of torture, permanent injury and child abuse. We must move beyond this distorted priority and reassert the fundamental principle that culture cannot take precedence over the law of our land.

In your Lordships’ House last Thursday, I asked whether the Minister was aware that women who have had FGM and whose daughters are likely to be at risk of subjection to this abhorrent practice are not currently tracked through the National Health Service or social

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care systems, so that no preventive measures could be implemented; and why girls at school who show signs of having had FGM have not been referred to social services or the police for follow-up action. I also asked what Her Majesty’s Government are doing to ensure that robust information-sharing protocols are developed between health, social care and education agencies and the police so that appropriate actions can be taken to support victims and bring perpetrators to account. The Minister responded that on Monday—I believe it was Monday this week—the Health Minister, Jane Ellison, would be meeting healthcare professionals and stakeholders to develop policies on sharing information and data. I take this opportunity to commend Jane Ellison on all her endeavours to address this subject. Can the Minister give an account of the results of that meeting?

In conclusion, all experienced advocates agree that the time is long overdue for the implementation of comprehensive, joined-up policies of early identification, protection and support, procedures to bring perpetrators to account—as has been achieved in other European countries such as France, Sweden and the Netherlands—and an end to a culture of impunity which allows this mutilation to continue.

I finish by quoting Nimco Ali, a young British woman who lives in this country and is the co-founder of Daughters of Eve. She wishes her voice to speak for all those voices, either in far-away places or on our own doorsteps, that we cannot here hear tonight:

“There is a child somewhere today in this country, in school, in a hospital A and E Department or on a bus, who has had FGM or is at risk of this torture, who is counting on us to help her with her physical or emotional trauma—or crying out to stop it happening. That child’s protection is our responsibility. For over 25 years such children have suffered this appalling practice in this country. For how many more years will we allow this extreme child abuse to continue with impunity? The UK is laughing stock of Europe”.

She also said that girls are sent to the UK because we are seen as a soft touch. Those are not my words but those of a very articulate British woman who has endured the agony, humiliation and psychological trauma of FGM. I hope that the Minister’s reply tonight will bring substantial hope to victims, and to those living in terror of becoming victims, of this indescribable horror of FGM.

7.45 pm

Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con): My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on having introduced this debate on FGM because this is a taboo subject, especially in the countries where it is practised. We have already heard about the terrible impacts of FGM and how widespread the practice is. It is truly shocking that still today in Djibouti, Egypt, Guinea, Somalia, Sudan and Sierra Leone, more than 90% of women have been through some form of FGM. Many countries already have laws prohibiting FGM; it is a criminal offence in 15 of the 28 African states where FGM is prevalent, although there are few prosecutions. But where it is deeply embedded in the culture, laws alone have proved insufficient to stop it.

Education is key to ending FGM, through both teaching girls their rights and educating the general communities about the dangers of this abhorrent practice.

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I would like to give two short examples. First, three years ago I visited a women’s group in Abou Mosalem, just outside Cairo, where we talked about FGM. These women explained that they were worried that if their daughters were not done, they might be rejected by their husbands on their wedding night. Then they would be returned and would for ever be an unmarriageable burden on their families, who could not afford to feed them. Some of these women had attended an informative meeting on FGM and changed their minds. It had made some of them decide not to have their daughters circumcised.

Secondly, in July 2010, I visited Komarbai village in Sierra Leone to see a project that was being run with the whole community by Plan UK. In Sierra Leone, it is often the father who will decide when a girl needs to undergo initiation. In many of their communities, it is a big disgrace for a girl to have sex without having gone through the initiation. Sometimes, families will even demand that a girl is circumcised to marry into their family. Through role-play at this village meeting, it was shown that the process not only could be lethal for girls but was illegal. When questioned afterwards, the chief and elders said that they were now not so sure it was a good idea.

In both these countries, the custom of FGM is deeply rooted but these visits show that it is possible to shift that culture. However, it will take time and needs a combination of the right laws and sensitive community education, which I hope that DfID will support, because to truly cease this practice, the communities themselves must embrace change and not just have it foisted on them from the global north.

7.47 pm

Baroness Rendell of Babergh (Lab): My Lords, female genital mutilation has been perpetrated on girls since ancient times. The first known instance of it was seen on an Egyptian mummy dating from 200 BC. The UN has recognised FGM as torture and in calling for its elimination describes it as cruel, inhumane and degrading to women. The first law criminalising FGM in the United Kingdom was passed in 1985, the second 18 years later. However, there have been no prosecutions to date, while prosecutions in France, for instance, are numerous. Since the passing of a law against FGM in Kuria East, in central Africa, eight people are awaiting prosecution and two are serving three years’ imprisonment for employing a circumciser to mutilate their 13 year-old daughter.

A key barrier to FGM prevention, according to the recently published joint statement by the Intercollegiate Group, Tackling FGM in the UK, is the failure of professionals to respond when presented with a child who may be at risk of FGM. Such children include a girl born to a woman who has undergone FGM and any female child whose elder sister has undergone FGM; she must be considered as at immediate risk. Girls living in the woman’s or child’s household should also be considered at risk. FGM is child abuse. It causes pain, haemorrhage, difficulty in urinating, complications in menstruation, considerable problems in sexual intercourse and childbirth, and can bring about fistula and, sometimes, death. We have a large number of child protection systems in the UK, particularly

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focused on FGM, but the systematic screening of girls through annual physical examinations, as is carried out in France, is seen here as too intrusive. Does the Minister agree with the findings of the joint statement that where there is a suspicion that a girl has undergone FGM, assessments and medicals are helpful and examinations should not be seen as abusive? Is she aware that, as part of a whole health assessment, the standing committee of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, children and their parents do not find such examinations traumatic?

In the UK, the number of children subjected to it is not known. Rather, the associations and groups that make assessments of numbers come up with varying figures: 66,000 women who have had FGM performed on them is a figure most agree on, but now many say that this is a gross underestimate. Knowing who and how many have suffered this abuse, however, is only half the battle. School teachers, GPs, midwives and nurses need to be aware of which children and young people in their care have suffered FGM, and report their findings to the police.

FGM has to be stopped. These words have repeatedly been uttered for the 29 years since the passing of the first Bill by those of us who are appalled by FGM. I ask the Minister whether 2014 can be the year that sees the beginning of the end of it.

7.51 pm

Baroness Barker (LD): My Lords, it is a great honour to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, who has worked so hard for so many years on this subject. I want to pay tribute to my colleague Lynne Featherstone for having secured the resources within DfID for the £35 million regional programme for Africa and countries where this barbaric practice is prevalent.

I also pay tribute to the Orchid Project, an outstanding charity that works on this subject. It pointed out something extremely important: the prevalent coincidence of FGM and other conditions—such as early marriage and ill health—which damage women. Will the Minister tell us whether DfID, in its programmes abroad, and the MoJ and the Home Office here, will ensure that their programmes on forced marriage go in sync with the programmes on FGM, so that there can be a double benefit?

The Orchid Project pointed out quite rightly that FGM is not a religious practice, it is a cultural practice. However, it said that in attempting to overcome this, it is very important to get religious leaders within communities on one side. Therefore, will the Minister say whether, in the DfID programme, and in the programmes with diaspora communities here, we are targeting religious leaders—and, in particular, men who have influence in forming opinion in communities within which this practice occurs? If we do that, we will be able to support those very brave young women such as Leyla Hussein, who herself was cut at the age of seven in Somalia and who was so eloquent in that amazing documentary, “The Cruel Cut”.

Finally, will the Minister tell us whether, in the DfID programme, there will be a particular concentration on those regions of countries where there has been a significant move towards abandoning the practice?

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From that, we will learn what it was that enabled people—men and women within those communities—to build resistance to this practice, and this knowledge could then be transferred to places such as Somalia and Sudan and some parts of western Africa where, unfortunately, this practice remains all too prevalent, with all the horror and destruction for individual young women that that entails.

7.53 pm

Lord Patel (CB): My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the four noble Baronesses who have spoken before me with such feeling and passion. I thank my noble friend Lady Cox for securing this debate today. She is quite right to focus on the key issue: what are we doing, apart from legislation, to stop this horrible, horrific procedure being carried out in the United Kingdom? Through the work I do with a charity, mostly in Africa, I have seen the results in many of these women. I work with a charity that trains doctors and nurses in Africa to help women who have obstetric fistula. There are 2 million such women. FGM contributes to these women having difficulty in labour and the resulting fistulas. It also contributes to them having a higher incidence of postpartum haemorrhage and to them dying because of it. FGM, therefore, does not just cause horrific suffering: it causes death.

Why, after the series of legislation championed by the noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, have we not had any prosecutions in the United Kingdom? Is it because those who are involved—members of the family, those who carry out this procedure and even the health professionals—do not fear this legislation, or are they ignorant of it, or both? The fact that there have been no prosecutions must make them feel safe. I know that my own college—I am a fellow of the Royal College of Obstetricians—and other colleges have produced guidance and asked for more policies to stop this procedure being continued in the United Kingdom.

The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, said that we needed a joined-up approach to this; that all the agencies, including the NHS and the child protection agencies, should work together. We now need leadership from the Government, and I hope that the Minister—who I know feels passionately about this—will indicate some new policy measures from the Government to help stop this. Everybody who has spoken and will speak today, and others who have spoken previously in recent weeks when we have had debates and Questions relating to this, have all felt that something must be done in the United Kingdom to stop this horrific process going on. The noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, quite rightly asked that we start that process in 2014. I think that she is being generous: we should start tomorrow.

7.56 pm

Lord Parekh (Lab): My Lords, it is a privilege to follow my noble friend Lord Patel. I begin by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, on securing this debate. In the three minutes that I have at my disposal, I want to make five very quick points. First, I think that prosecution has to be far more vigorous than it has been. In order that that can happen, we

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need to do two things: medical professionals and care workers ought to be more forthcoming in providing evidence; and the Crown Prosecution Service should restructure its criteria of proof and responsibility.

Secondly, since we have only limited resources and energy, we should concentrate on those groups where this is far more prevalent, rather than talk about all ethnic minorities or all Muslims or whatever. For example, in Somalia, it is 98% prevalent; among the Egyptians, it is about 91%; it is 74% among Ethiopians; but when you come to Ghana or Uganda, it is barely 1%. It is important to select groups and concentrate on them.

Thirdly, we should be increasing awareness of the consequences of female genital mutilation, not that women do not know. After all, many of those who perpetrate this have already suffered: they know the consequences. I have in mind the young girls within the family—trying to educate them on what this involves, and getting them to put pressure on their own parents and peers and others within their own communities. In dealing with many ugly practices, getting young people to organise and mobilise in this way is generally very effective.

Fourthly, we must find some way of de-legitimising this practice in the eyes of those who engage in it. They engage in it not because they want to harm their children; they know it is bad. They do it not just under social pressure—they do it because they think they are doing what is right. They think it is right because they think that it disciplines their sexuality and so on. We need to involve religious leaders and cultural leaders, and get them to convince the people involved that this is not the way that the practice can ever be justified. Here it is important to talk in idioms that people can understand, rather than talk about human rights and why women are being deprived of sexual pleasure. That is not the language in which you can communicate with people who do not place much value either on human rights or on sexual pleasure. One has to talk in terms of idioms and arguments which make sense to these people.

Finally, it is quite important to bear in mind that we are not objecting to female genital mutilation per se. Whenever I have talked to these women, they have said that they know that some nuns undergo the practice voluntarily. They know that some adult African women have undergone the practice voluntarily after the birth of their first child in order to convince themselves that they are mothers and not just wives. They also know that, for all kinds of reasons, every year 200 to 300 adult women undergo it in our own society for all kinds of reasons. It is therefore important to bear in mind that we are objecting to this practice because it involves small children, and we ought not to lose sight of that particular focus.

8 pm

Lord Loomba (LD): My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, on securing this important debate on issues relating to FGM, and I commend her for the important work that she does with the Humanitarian Aid Relief Trust in supporting communities affected by oppression, exploitation and persecution.

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I have spoken many times in this House on issues affecting women and children from developing countries, and relish the opportunity to add to this debate on FGM.

Women’s health and empowerment rightly feature in the UN’s flagship millennium development goals, launched in 2000. However, it is widely thought that not enough progress has been made in these important areas. I am therefore encouraged that our Government are taking steps to improve this. As we have heard from many speakers today, FGM has a devastating effect on women, even on our own doorstep in the UK. The facts and figures on how many women and girls are still subjected to this barbaric act are staggering.

Over the past couple of years there has been a steep rise in awareness of FGM, and I am encouraged that it is the ambition of the Government, led by my right honourable friend Lynne Featherstone in the Department for International Development, to eradicate FGM within a generation. Lynne has led the way in our Government on breaking the taboo on this topic. At the UN Status of Women meeting in March 2013, as we have heard from my noble friend Lady Barker, our Government pledged up to £35 million to help reduce FGM by 30% in at least 10 countries within the next five years. I hope that the Minister can assure us that that money is being put to good use. I am glad that this UK funding will be targeted directly within local communities in many countries across the world, as that is where real change can begin.

On 20 December 2012, almost a year ago, the UN passed its resolution on:

“Intensifying global efforts for the elimination of female genital mutilations”.

We must build on this momentum by ensuring that the post-2015 MDG framework contains a strong emphasis on eliminating violence against women, including FGM.

8.03 pm

Baroness Tonge (LD): My Lords, I thank noble Lords, particularly of course the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for introducing the debate and for giving us so many statistics and graphic details, which noble Lords will be glad to hear I do not intend to repeat. FGM is a terrible practice and a very ancient one, as is male circumcision. No one really knows why these things started—perhaps we shall never know—but we know that FGM is still prevalent in the world today, and for women it is the most horrible and dangerous practice.

I want to say what in my experience has gone on in Parliament. I came into Parliament in 1997 with a lot of women parliamentarians, and I quickly joined the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Population Development and Reproductive Health. Of course there was the 1985 Act that prohibited FGM—everyone knows about that—but by the year 2000 that all-party group had produced a report on female genital mutilation, which is still up on the group’s website. Following that report, Christine McCafferty MP, the chair of the group at the time, took a 10-minute rule Bill through Parliament to prevent FGM from being perpetrated on girls taken out of the country. It was illegal within the country but we wanted to ensure that girls could not be taken out in the school holidays. This was followed by Ann Clwyd—supported in the House of

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Commons, I may say, by me—introducing an amendment to the 1985 Act, and in 2003 Royal Assent was given to making FGM illegal if girls were taken out of the country to have it done.

Nevertheless, it has taken 10 years to get the broader media and parliamentarians interested and, as we have heard, no prosecutions of individuals have taken place in that time, the main reason being that although, for example, 63 cases were reported between November 2009 and November 2011, no individual would give evidence. Girls stay loyal to their families. The noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, has to be congratulated; throughout this time she has campaigned on this issue and constantly drawn attention to this dreadful abuse.

Some 18 months ago, my all-party group suggested that we had a meeting with the Director of Public Prosecutions—Keir Starmer, at the time—to discuss why no prosecutions were taking place. He organised a round-table meeting; Jane Ellison, the chair of the all-party group on FGM, came to it, as did many social workers, doctors, teachers and NGOs. He got together a huge collegiate group of people who were concerned about this practice. After several meetings, there is now a countrywide alert for teachers, doctors, social workers and so on to report any suspicions that they may have.

I understand too that the Home Affairs Select Committee is to investigate the matter, but I contend that we have had enough reports, investigations and round-table meetings. What we need is a prosecution, and Keir Starmer assured us a few months ago that there was one in the pipeline. That is what we need. We do not want the victim to be harmed, but we need a prosecution that is well publicised in order to alert everyone in the country to this awful practice.

8.07 pm

Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab): I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, on her comprehensive and passionate introduction to this debate, which I suppose was the catalyst for so many other outstanding contributions. I associate myself particularly with the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, on the need to change culture, not just to legislate, and those of the noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, about the importance of changing attitudes to child protection.

In the time available, I want to add two things. First, to my eternal shame, I was shocked to discover, early in my time as First Minister of Scotland, that female genital mutilation was happening in a country that I thought I knew very well but clearly did not know as a whole. It was drawn to my attention by Khadija Coll of the African and Caribbean Network in Glasgow, who has been a relentless campaigner in Scotland on this issue since.

We in Scotland legislated eventually, passing new legislation in 2005. I make a plea again today that we ensure that the approach taken to this issue in the United Kingdom is indeed taken across the United Kingdom. There is a danger that the United Kingdom is seen as a soft touch in Europe on this issue, but there is also now a danger within the UK that Scotland is seen as a soft touch. It is vital that we have a cohesive approach to this among the different jurisdictions and secure a prosecution wherever it is possible in the UK as a start towards further prosecutions in the future.

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The second point I want to make arises from a very interesting meeting that took place in the House last Monday evening when a representative of the Crown Prosecution Service said that one of the reasons that there is a problem with prosecutions in the UK is that the legislation covers only British nationals. I want to make two points about that. First, if it is the case, we need to address it quickly. There would be widespread support in this House and in the other place for any amendments that were required. Secondly, even if that is the case, it is not a reason not to prosecute. If I had taken my daughter at the age of eight or nine to a neighbour’s house to have her tongue and fingers cut off, I would have been prosecuted. Even if there are problems with the existing FGM legislation, there is no justification for allowing it to continue without prosecutions, given the raft of other legislation available to prosecuting authorities on violence, child abuse, child protection and so on. I make a plea to the Government to take up the suggestions made by other speakers, particularly the noble Baronesses who spoke earlier in the debate, and to ensure that the Crown Prosecution Service sees this for what it is. It is violence; it is child abuse; and it needs to be tackled in our country and tackled quickly.

8.11 pm

Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB): My Lords, I thank and congratulate my noble friend Lady Cox on again airing this important subject. It is outrageous that such a practice should be happening in what we like to think of as a civilised society. Having said that, I do not doubt for one minute that the Government and the various departments involved find this as shocking as the rest of us. However, it is not resulting in prosecutions, so I shall look at why that might be.

When the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, asked a Question about this a few weeks ago, the Minister, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, replied very sensitively about why France has had some success. He said that there is compulsory examination. I took his point that that would not necessarily go down very well in this country. Looking at children’s private parts is a very tricky subject, but in France, they expect people who come there to behave like the French. The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, made a very good point that even if we do not go as far as examination—and I agree with the noble Earl, Lord Howe, about that—there might be some aspects of French law that we should take and make it clear that anybody committing this act is committing a crime.

We cannot overstate that there are no medical reasons for FGM. There are no religious reasons in the Bible, the Koran or any holy scripture that justify it. It is about cultural tradition. I completely accept the Government’s point that this is a very tricky area to deal with. However, we have to deal with it. There have to be prosecutions. Reading all the papers that have been assembled, mainly by government agencies, I am struck by the fact that they feel there is a lack of leadership and joined-up thinking. For example, even those cases that come to the attention of the professionals are not being reported as well as they might be. There are initiatives that, with the greatest respect, the

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Government could take to improve this situation. Let us not wait another 10 years for a prosecution. Let us not wait another five years. Let us not wait another year. We need to see some effective action.

My final point is that I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, about the success of Orchid. It is an example we should look at because it has had real success in various African—mainly sub-Saharan—countries in persuading people that this practice should change.

8.14 pm

Baroness Thornton (Lab):My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, who initiated this important debate and asked some important and pertinent questions, as did my noble friend Lady Rendell in her characteristically forthright speech.

Every day, 8,000 girls in the world are subjected to the practice of female genital mutilation. This intimate act of controlling women’s and girls’ bodies is not only a human rights violation, it is also, in the UK, child abuse. It has been illegal in the UK since 1985, and since 2003 Britons have been able to be prosecuted for acts of FGM abroad, but it is still practised. The report, Tackling FGM in the UK, produced by the Royal College of Nursing, asserts that 66,000 women in England and Wales have undergone female genital mutilation and that more than 24,000 girls under 15 are at risk. In Europe, it is estimated that 500,000 girls and women have been subjected to FGM and that an additional 180,000 are at risk each year.

Despite FGM being classed as a serious criminal offence in the UK, there have been no prosecutions. In the recent Channel 4 programme “The Cruel Cut”, you must weep with the girl who at seven returned from being taken overseas during school holidays to be cut. When she returned, she confided in her teacher, who ignored her cry for help. That child was doubly betrayed by the adults who should have been protecting her, and no action was taken against her parents. We should be ashamed in the UK that thousands of girls in danger of genital mutilation are being failed by our education, health and justice systems.

While I can only welcome the fact that an interministerial group is addressing this issue, along with other forms of violence against women, and that FGM is high on its agenda, there are two questions that I would like to ask Minister. First, is it really necessary for the Health Minister, Jane Ellison, to conduct yet another inquiry into FGM? I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Tonge: we know what the problem is. What new information is there to be found after the reports that have been done, including that by the Royal College of Nursing? If it is to happen, when will it happen? How long will it take, and how long will we need to wait for further action to be taken?

Secondly, since the Channel 4 programme, the 7 year-old girl has met Jeremy Hunt, and to his credit and that of the Home Secretary, Theresa May, they have committed themselves to action. Indeed, on 7 November, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in responding to a question from the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, said:

“Female genital mutilation is child abuse and violence against girls and women. It is also a criminal offence, and cutters and perpetrators need to be brought to justice”.—[Official Report, 7/11/13; col. 326.]

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We all agree. Despite this, it would seem from the press reports I have read that Michael Gove, the Secretary of State for Education, refuses to make FGM mandatory in child protection. Can the Minister tell us whether that is true and explain how we can expect teachers to take this issue seriously and make FGM part of their duty of care to children when it is not part of the guidelines? FGM is not recognised as child abuse. It needs to be treated in UK law as such.

8.17 pm

Baroness Northover (LD): My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, for securing this very important debate and for introducing it so effectively. She rightly magnified what she described as the cries of those who are demanding that this terrible practice is brought to an end. Like other noble Lords, I am struck by the level of concern in this House and across Parliament. The noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, used to be something of a lone voice in this area in the House of Lords. I hope she is pleased that the voices are now multiplying, not least in the media, including, as the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, mentioned, in “Casualty”.

In order to tackle FGM, it is critical that we raise awareness. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Patel, that we need to start today, not tomorrow. We cannot leave it until tomorrow. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that the Government are absolutely clear that FGM is a barbaric violation of human rights. We are entirely committed to tackling FGM, both here in the UK and overseas. That is why, as my noble friends Lady Barker and Lord Loomba said, the Department for International Development is investing £35 million to tackle FGM in at least 15 of the most affected countries with the objective of reducing the incidence of FGM by 30% in at least 10 countries over the next five years. As my noble friend Lord Loomba said, my honourable friend Lynne Featherstone, both as Parliamentary Under-Secretary at DfID and as the Government’s champion to combat violence against women and girls, has seized this issue with enormous determination.

My noble friend Lady Hodgson showed how deeply rooted these practices are but how there is hope of change within those communities. I point out to my noble friend that DfID’s approach is indeed to support an African-led movement towards ending FGM. We recognise the importance of this. We are taking an approach that combines community-based work with legislation and we are working with the UN joint programme on exactly this approach. My noble friend is right to highlight that.

My noble friend Lady Barker asked about linking FGM with work on the prevention of forced marriage. She is right to say that there are parallels between these two harmful practices. In DfID’s international work, where FGM and child marriage co-exist, they are addressed simultaneously at the community level. My noble friend also asked about work identifying men within the regions where FGM takes place, and, of course, this is relevant within the United Kingdom, too, to encourage others to oppose FGM. We fully recognise that and our experience in Africa shows that men’s involvement is very important. In most countries

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where cutting occurs, the majority of boys and men, when we are engaged with them, think that FGM should end. That is a key to moving this forward.

Significant progress is being made, which my noble friend Lady Hodgson referred to and which may reassure my noble friend Lady Barker. There have been declines in the practice in certain areas. The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, was quite right to highlight the countries where there is a high incidence and those where it is much lower, and to say that we need to concentrate on those high-incidence countries.

The international investment will also reap dividends in tackling FGM in the United Kingdom by supporting the diaspora communities in advocating for change in their countries of origin and developing a global social change communications programme. This will complement a raft of action that we are taking in the United Kingdom to end FGM. Most noble Lords concentrated particularly on the United Kingdom, although often setting it in the context of what is happening in other countries. I wish to make it absolutely clear to the noble Baronesses, Lady Cox and Lady Thornton, that we identify FGM as child abuse, and political sensitivities must not get in the way of eradicating this illegal practice. I can assure the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, that culture can never be allowed to trump the law.

To further improve our understanding in the United Kingdom, the Home Office is part-funding a new study into the prevalence rates of FGM in England and Wales, to be published in March. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked whether we really need it. The last study of this kind dates back to 2007 and estimated that some 20,000 girls could be at risk of FGM every year. We can take forward all sorts of measures that we know we need, but it also helps to get a better sense of what the evidence is now.

The Department of Health is working with the Health & Social Care Information Centre to look at how best the NHS can collect and share data to build a better picture on prevalence from across the NHS. The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, asked about the meeting that my honourable friend Jane Ellison at the Department of Health chaired on Monday with experts from FGM clinics, police and key charity organisations. She set out a feasibility study on collecting data and asked the group to help take that forward. That will all feed in to the action that we are taking.

Internationally, UNICEF has published a report casting additional light on how the practice is changing in the 29 countries where it is concentrated and on the progress made since its first report in 2005. It is important that these new insights inform the design of policies and programmes, both in countries where it has been practised for generations and in areas where it is relatively new and associated with immigration. I hope that helps to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, that the evidence is there for a useful purpose and not at all to delay action. The Government recognise that, in order to tackle FGM here in the UK, we need to put prevention at the heart of our work. We need all parts of the system—criminal justice, education, health, housing and benefits—to work together to identify,

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protect and support victims and to bring perpetrators to justice. Indeed, noble Lords around the House were making that case.

The noble Baroness, Lady Rendell, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, raised the issue of routine examinations of girls to check for FGM. From birth until they leave school, children and young people are routinely investigated by healthcare staff in the Healthy Child programme, which covers England. Prevention and safeguarding underpin this programme. Noble Lords will have noted what my noble friend Lord Howe said. I am sure also that, as discussions occur within the Department of Health about how best to take this forward, the points that noble Lords have made will be pursued.

We have distributed more than 40,000 leaflets and posters and have completed a pilot on A Statement Opposing Female Genital Mutilation, a pocket-sized leaflet designed to be used when travelling abroad. We sent out more than 37,000 of these leaflets during the pilot, and evaluation responses have told us that it has been widely accepted by communities affected by FGM and that it is a valuable resource to help practitioners start conversations about FGM. I have seen a copy of the leaflet and am very happy to supply a copy to noble Lords who wish to see it.

In addition, a dedicated FGM helpline hosted by the NSPCC was launched in the summer. A specially trained team is on hand to receive calls from professionals and members of the public, either victims or potential victims of FGM, and from friends or relatives concerned about somebody who might be at risk. Noble Lords may be interested to know that, as of last week, there have been 132 calls to the helpline, 55 of which were referred to the relevant police force. The European Commission is also stepping up on this. It has announced funding of €3.7 million to spread a clear message about zero tolerance of all forms of violence against women and girls, including FGM. We have bid for €300,000 from this fund.

We have published FGM multi-agency guidelines for front-line professionals to raise awareness and help safeguard girls and women from abuse. We will shortly be providing local areas with a resource pack to emphasise what works in tackling FGM and to encourage commissioners of services to consider measures that they could put in place to prevent and tackle FGM.

I fully understand the frustration that there has still not been a prosecution for FGM in this country. However, I am greatly encouraged by the renewed commitment of the police and the Crown Prosecution Service to overcome these barriers and the DPP’s assessment that it is only a matter of time before a perpetrator is brought to justice. I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and others have said. It is extremely useful that this debate is taking place tonight because I can inform the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, and other noble Lords that my honourable friend Norman Baker at the Home Office is meeting the DPP tomorrow about this issue, and I will feed back to him the issues that we have discussed tonight.

This has been a passionate debate. It is very clear that we can and must eradicate this terrible practice. I assure noble Lords that we understand that. We are

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working on this internationally in an unprecedented way and we are pushing aside all the boulders in the way in the United Kingdom. I am sure that the cogency of this case will not be lost on the DPP and others working in this field.

8.29 pm

Sitting suspended.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Committee (6th Day) (Continued)

8.35 pm

Clause 121: Application of IPCC provisions to contractors

Baroness Henig (Lab): My Lords, in moving this amendment I must first declare interests as a former chair of the Security Industry Authority, and as a current adviser to the British Security Industry Association and a Scottish private security company.

At this stage these are probing amendments to try to find out to what extent the Government are retreating from their commitments to the private security industry, first made three years ago by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, in this House, and again last autumn by the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, at a Security Industry Authority conference, when he pledged that the Government would introduce business licensing of companies in the private security sector along with individual registration by the end of this calendar year—which is to say, in the next three weeks. The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, also promised appropriate enforcement powers to back up the new arrangements.

We are in quite a novel situation. An industry is begging the Government to regulate its businesses with a range of proportionate penalties for non-compliance, and despite the promises and the Home Office consultation, which shows that the great majority of representative bodies and companies support that, nothing is happening. How strange, then, that in other arenas the Government are rushing to regulate: trade union activity, to give one example.

In the context of these amendments I must spell out why business licensing of private security companies that work alongside the police and of those that carry out extradition escort duties is so necessary and so important. It is because we need to continue to drive up standards across the industry. That started with individual licensing, which was introduced 10 years ago but which must continue, to protect the public and to win both their confidence and that of the strategic partners with whom private security companies work, such as the Government and the police.

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We also need to tackle the continuing influence of organised crime gangs in this important sector and to focus regulation on companies while reducing the burden on individuals. The public need to be able to hold companies to account for failures and wrongdoing, not just individuals. Thus far, the Government have proposed only secondary legislation to introduce a form of mandatory approvals for businesses under existing legislation. They have not, they told industry representatives, identified the opportunity for the necessary primary legislation. Given the wide-ranging nature of this Bill, I am surprised that it has not proved possible to insert into it somewhere along the line business licensing for private security companies.

The need for primary legislation is urgent; the benefits that the change would bring are significant for legitimate businesses and for public safety. Furthermore, the uncertainty created by the failure to bring forward this legislation is having an adverse impact on businesses and industry leaders, because they have to cope with continuing lack of information as to how their industry will be regulated, if and when changes will be made, and how much it will cost. My amendments at this stage seek to ensure that companies working alongside the police, and those involved in extradition escorting must be regulated by the Security Industry Authority. My objective is to ensure that all businesses providing security services in the areas covered by the Private Security Industry Act are licensed and that there are powers available to the regulator to allow effective and proportionate enforcement of the regime.

The question that I want to put to the Minister and the coalition Government is this. Are you still intending to carry through the changes you promised in 2011 and said were so urgent that they had to be implemented by the end of this year, or have you decided to abandon them? If the latter is the case, can you please tell the industry and the regulator, so that we can decide how to respond? If you are still going ahead, please could you come back at Report with some appropriate amendments? If you are not able to do that, I and colleagues will be happy to draft some new clauses for you to adopt. But please make up your minds on this issue, which is very important, not just for the industry but for public protection. I beg to move.

Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD): I have added my name to this amendment, and refer Members to my former policing interests in the register. I have long felt that it was important to ensure that adequate training was given to anyone from the private security sector who would be working with the general public and, especially, the police.

Many years ago, when I was a member of my police authority in North Yorkshire, we pioneered doorkeepers, who were specially trained and motivated to work in a range of areas, in particular in nightclubs. Up until that time, it was customary to employ hefty and largely untrained men who would quickly get involved in any scuffles that were going on in the nightclub, or outside it, and who escalated the incident more often than not. Eventually, the police felt that they needed to do something about this and proposed that they trained the doorkeepers. They received a certificate at the end of their training, which became the basis of our having

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properly trained people dealing with potentially difficult situations, with the help and support of police officers who knew their abilities and limitations.

Fast forward a lot of years to the introduction of the Security Industry Authority, which regulated the private security industry and introduced individual licensing, which has proved to be an enormous success and gained, as we have heard, much support from both the public and police, who saw their registration as being a sign that they had been properly trained and accredited. But it should not end there, and this is the purpose of bringing this probing amendment to your Lordships’ attention. Accountability for actions must not be simply laid at the door of individuals. Companies have a great deal of responsibility in this area and they, too, need to be held accountable if they have been lax about ensuring the proper training and professionalism of their operatives.

We have, I hope, gone long past the time when we saw rogue companies getting away with questionable practices, and unless proper regulation is undertaken we may find ourselves once again in a position of trying to fend off organised crime, which will impact on legitimate businesses. You can be sure that the rogue operators will be looking carefully at what is proposed in the Bill so that they can bypass having to regulate their staff and businesses, especially those who will be working with the police.

However, the words in the briefing note—which was kindly sent to me by the Home Office and I thank it for that—do not really give me much comfort. The consultation proposed,

“a phased transition to a new regulatory regime of business licensing, together with some changes to how individuals are licensed to work within the industry. Following the consultation, the Home Office is enacting reforms in two stages, with provisions that require primary legislation being implemented later, so that the industry can begin to benefit from business regulation introduced by secondary legislation as soon as possible. We are working towards businesses being able to apply for a licence from April 2014”.

In the mean time, what has happened? Businesses do not need to bother ensuring that they will be able to comply with the spirit of regulation. The police need to have confidence in the people they are operating alongside. The public also need to be confident that private security personnel are properly registered and accredited and that companies which make a lot of money out of guarding, escorting and handling extremely important items and persons can be held to account for their actions. This was promised and I hope my noble friend the Minister will be able to reassure the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, who has an enormous amount of experience in these matters, that the proposals given to this House previously have not been abandoned.

Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington (CB): I support the noble Baronesses, Lady Henig and Lady Harris of Richmond. I also remember the promises made to this House by Ministers who preceded the noble Lord. There has been a long history in relation to the private security industry and I declare my interest as chairman of Skills for Security, which does all the training for the private security industry. I have been in that position for some time.

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The history of this goes way back. The police service has had grave concerns over the past 10 to 15 years about rogue companies in the private security industry, with some issues that were very much into the criminal arena of behaviour. It surely makes sense for there to be an approach that follows the promises made to this House and talks about the responsibility not just of individuals but of companies. Large companies in this country have a responsibility. They do a very good and important job in the private security industry. It makes sense for these companies to be held accountable as an identity rather than individuals within the company. It follows government policy in terms of making companies responsible for the negligent and highly negligent actions of their employees. It would ensure that companies can be held to account and investigated by the IPCC, something we talked about earlier in this House. It would also address the continuing uncertainty that is impacting on business planning, which some of us involved in this area have identified with other people also talking to us about their concerns.

Everyone in this House will know about the increase in organised crime. A number of organised crime gangs operate in this area. Some of them infiltrate companies and some are part and parcel of companies. It makes sense, if that is the case, that companies in general should be held accountable. The other area which is important—and my noble friend Lady Harris of Richmond talked about it—is training. It is something I know a little about, having borne that responsibility for some time. It is essential that when training is done it is done with certainty. That means that if there is accountability, it is there for those people in the company as a whole, whether it be big companies such as G4S or the smaller companies that some of us are involved in.

If this amendment were taken up—it is a probing amendment, of course—it would add to public confidence. The police service in general would know where it stood and government agencies also would know exactly what they were working with and exactly how to tackle some of the difficulties that sometimes happen in the private security industry.

Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, I will be brief. My noble friend Lady Henig indicated that this is a probing amendment which has been tabled as there are doubts about whether undertakings given previously still stand. In view of the obvious importance of this issue, which is clear from the contributions made to this debate, we shall certainly listen with interest to the Minister’s answer.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): I thank noble Lords for their contributions and for the concise way in which they have addressed this important issue. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, for presenting these amendments—not that I am going to accept them—as the SIA is one of my departmental responsibilities within the Home Office. She mentioned commitments that I made last year at the annual general meeting of the SIA. I made similar commitments by video link; unfortunately, I could not be there as I was dealing with a Bill and could not be in two places at the same time.

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I reiterate our commitment to the SIA. No one knows more than the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, how important that body is, given her distinguished service as its chairman. We also appreciate the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, on the importance of business licensing for the development of the industry. We are at one in that aim and we have not been idle on this issue. There has been a public consultation on the process and we have published the Government’s response to it. As the noble Baroness may know, we do not need primary legislation —we do not need to put anything in the Bill—to introduce business licensing. It would be introduced by secondary legislation and would cover issues such as door supervision, security guarding, cash and valuables in transit, close protection, CCTV and public surveillance, and key holding—the traditional areas. However, noble Lords will be aware that one of the consequences of the Leveson report is that private investigators should also come within the ambit of the regulatory body—the SIA. Therefore, there is a lot to do. I reassure my noble friend Lady Harris of Richmond that we are still very much on target.

I turn to the amendments. Amendment 56QA seeks to link the application of the complaints and misconduct framework overseen by the IPCC to SIA-regulated businesses. As the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, said, the police work with the private sector on many different aspects of their work, many of which are outside the security industry and, as such, it was never the intention that the provisions of the Private Security Industry Act would apply. I shall describe the sorts of thing that I am talking about. These include, for example, call handlers in police control rooms or inquiry office staff. In addition, forensic science work, which is, of course, integral to the police service, is regulated by the forensic science regulator, and would be excluded.

The intention behind Clause 121 is to ensure that the oversight of complaints and conduct matters by the IPCC extends to all private contractors, subcontractors and their employees carrying out functions for the police where those functions have been traditionally carried out by police officers and police staff, so that where there has been a move towards the civilianisation of police functions, these should be covered. Police forces are increasingly entering into contracts with private sector organisations—I come from Lincolnshire, a county which probably pioneered that—many of which fall outside the SIA-regulated regime, but which should, none the less, be subject to investigation by the IPCC for wrongdoing. I think that the public would rightly expect this to be the case.

Amendment 95ZA raises similar issues in the context of the transit through the UK of people being extradited from one country to another. Again, I understand the noble Baroness’s concern to prevent untrained and potentially unsuitable individuals being given delegated authority for facilitating these transits.

Although I agree with the intention behind the amendment, I believe that we can achieve all this through other, more workable means. I say that because the Government plan to amend this clause in recognition of similar concerns raised by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee—namely, that the

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power to specify descriptions of those who might in future facilitate the transit through the UK of persons being extradited from and to another country is cast in wide terms. The committee felt that this should be seen in the context of the powers of authorised officers, which include the power to detain persons in custody, and therefore that the delegated power should either be circumscribed in the Bill or subject to the affirmative procedure.

We have listened to the views of the committee and, in response, have tabled an amendment which will apply the affirmative resolution procedure to this order-making power. This will mean that the only categories of persons able to undertake escort duties will be those approved by both Houses. An example of the type of persons who might undertake this escort role is Border Force officials. Whoever is empowered to carry out the role will be subject to the extradition codes of practice, which are based on the equivalent PACE provisions. I hope that the noble Baroness will be reassured that there will be proper oversight and scrutiny of those who undertake quasi-police functions and exercise police powers, and that she will be content to withdraw her amendment.

In relation to the SIA, the Private Security Industry Act 2001, which underpins the SIA’s regulatory activities, specifically states that licensing requirements do not apply to activities carried out by a detainee custody officer and a prison custody officer, both as defined by the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. Therefore, the effect of this amendment would be to create conflicting legislation, with a question as to which Act was supposed to apply to these people. The SIA currently has no remit for regulating this type of activity; nor is it the Government’s intention for it to do so in the future.

I hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Henig—I keep thinking of her as “my noble friend”, although, according to the traditions of the House, I should not call her that—will accept my commitment on business licensing and on the determination of the Government to continue their policy objective of advancing the interests of the SIA. We see it as developing an increasingly important role in public protection in this country.

Baroness Henig: I thank the Minister for his response. I listened very carefully and particularly took note of the points that he made about escorting for extradition proceedings. However, I am somewhat disappointed with some of the general points that he made. He said that the Government had not been idle. Three years have passed and nothing has happened. I do not know what definition of “idleness” the Minister is using but in my book three years is quite a long time for nothing to happen. He assured the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, that the Government were very much on target. However, they clearly are not on target, because both the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, said that this whole process was going to be completed by the end of this year. Therefore, how can he say that the Government are very much on target when they patently are not? I am sorry but that is not very reassuring.

There was mention of secondary legislation. I have to say to the Minister that the problem with secondary legislation is that there cannot be a range of enforcement mechanisms; nor can there be appropriate sanctions.

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The industry has made it clear that to have business licensing without appropriate enforcement mechanisms is a recipe for disaster. It means that the good companies will go along with things and the bad companies will not face any sanctions. To businesses, that is a worse prospect than no legislation. They are very alarmed about that secondary legislation.

I know that businesses will be very disappointed with the Minister’s response. He has offered nothing. He has offered no assurances and has not said that the Government will bring anything back. We have here very appropriate legislation for something far more substantive. I have some sympathy for the Minister who I think would like to move further. I am quite sure that the problems are not necessarily in the Home Office but in other parts of government. None the less, the industry is disappointed because the opportunity is here to take a big step towards what it wants and what obviously would be of benefit to the public, but it is not being taken. I understand, and I sympathise with the fact, that industry leaders, probably even today, have made it clear that they will withdraw from a lot of co-operation with the Home Office because of the disappointment and frustration that they feel at the Government’s inability to take this forward. For the life of me, I cannot understand the problem with going ahead with business licensing in a proper manner through primary legislation.

At this stage, I am happy to withdraw this probing amendment but some of us may want to look at this issue again to see whether there are amendments that we could table on Report, which perhaps might find a more favourable response. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 56QA withdrawn.

Clause 121 agreed.

Clauses 122 to 125 agreed.

9 pm

Clause 126: Appointment of chief officers of police

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, these government amendments implement the recommendation of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in relation to Clause 126. They ensure that there is parliamentary scrutiny of any decisions to designate countries, police forces and ranks under that clause. It is entirely appropriate, given its role, that the College of Policing should play a central part in the designation process, so the clause continues to require the Home Secretary to act only after receiving its recommendation. It will remain up to the Home Secretary whether she implements the college’s designations. However, by putting the designations in secondary legislation subject

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to the negative resolution procedure, we are ensuring that there is an appropriate opportunity for Parliament to consider them. I commend these amendments to the Committee.

For the time being, I will listen to what the noble Lord, Lord Blair, has to say about his amendment, which is in this group, before I respond to the debate that is likely to follow.

Lord Blair of Boughton (CB): My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my registered interests in relation to policing. Amendment 105 stands not only in my name but also in the names of the noble Lord, Lord Condon, and the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller. The noble Baroness is not able to be in your Lordships’ House today and has asked me to present her apologies for that. However, I am in a position to say that she remains in firm support of this amendment. Amendment 105 is not affected by, nor affects in any specific terms, the other amendments in this group put forward by the Minister. It is not an amendment to Clause 126 but is about Clause 126. It is actually an addition to the Bill’s last clause, Clause 160—the enactment clause—and can be found at the end of today’s Marshalled List. I am grateful to the Minister for his part in arranging to have it debated now as it is related not to the whole Bill, nor even to the enactment of the whole Bill, but only to the enactment of Section 126.

The amendment is triggered by concerns about how the opening of senior UK police posts will affect those few police chief officer posts that are deeply concerned with UK national security and intelligence. It suggests that the Government should seek the advice of the Intelligence and Security Committee about this point before Section 126 is enacted.

After that, the first thing to say is that neither the noble Lord, Lord Condon—who will be speaking later —nor I have any objections in principle to the appointment of senior officers from abroad, notably those from Commonwealth countries, to UK police positions. That would be hypocritical in that senior UK officers have reasonably often and recently commanded police forces in Commonwealth countries, including Australia.

However, it is pertinent to note that no UK officer has ever been considered to command the Australian Federal Police or for appointment to be director of the FBI or the commissioner of the NYPD for a particular reason. Those posts are concerned with the national security of the United States or Australia, and the postholders routinely share secret intelligence with their national security services. Here our amendment comes to the point. There are similar posts in the UK. There are senior police officers intricately involved in the security and intelligence arrangements of the UK. The amendment picks out four of them and seeks to understand how the Government foresee that these posts can be held by non-UK citizens. It is not easy to see how that would be possible.

The first two of the four we have selected are: the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis, who is responsible to the Home Secretary for overall national co-ordination of police counterterrorism activity in the whole of the UK, excluding Northern Ireland; and the deputy commissioner, who holds the full powers

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and duties of the commissioner in the absence of him or her. That is why these two posts alone are royal appointments on the recommendation of the Home Secretary and are not appointed and never have been by a police authority, the police and crime commissioner or even the Mayor of London.

The third post is one of the currently four assistant commissioners of the Met currently described as assistant commissioner specialist operations, appointed by the commissioner to have full-time, day-to-day responsibility for national counterterrorism policing and liaison with the security services. As an assistant commissioner, he or she—it is currently a she—is one of the most senior chief constables in the UK. He or she chairs the ACPO committee on terrorism, ex officio, and has executive jurisdiction throughout the UK except for Northern Ireland. Counterterrorism is not a devolved matter. General policing is, but not counterterrorism, which is what makes these posts so special.

The fourth post is that of the director-general of the new National Crime Agency. We have included this post partially because the NCA has been selected recently by the Government as a potential successor to hold the Met’s current CT responsibilities. But in any event, he or she will already handle secret material in relation to organised crime and child pornography, both of which have significant international dimensions.

All these postholders must be security cleared to the very high level known as developed vetting. The first requirement for DV, as it is known, is that, as far as I and the noble Baroness, Lady Manningham-Buller, can recall, the individual must be a UK citizen and must have lived in the UK for a decade. If that is not true or has been changed, it would be useful to know, so I hope the Minister can tell the Committee.

It is extremely difficult to imagine these postholders being able to carry out their roles without access to the full range of CT intelligence, which a person will not have if they are not DVed. Furthermore, particularly in the case of a US rather than perhaps a Commonwealth citizen, it is possible that a foreign postholder would inevitably have mixed allegiances. Many counterterrorist operations are highly international and fast moving, being briefed upwards to Prime Ministers and Presidents. It is inevitable that, during a near crisis, different Governments will have different security priorities at different times. COBRA, in which the commissioner and the assistant commissioner specialist operations sit, battles with this regularly.

The noble Lord, Lord Condon, will return to this matter. He will also speak about the fact that the Metropolitan Police Commissioner is responsible for the protection of the monarch and her heirs and successors, as well as the Prime Minister, some Ministers and some foreign ambassadors. We understand that appointments like these will not be undertaken lightly and that they will be political—in the best use of the word—decisions involving senior Ministers. The Government have a clear duty to lay out what mechanisms they would use to mitigate the difficulties I have outlined. In the second section of the amendment we make a proposal which provides a parliamentary solution to the problem. This suggests a delay to the enactment of Clause 126—and only that clause—until such time as the Secretary of State has sought and received advice

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from the Intelligence and Security Committee on the viability of appointing foreign nationals to these four posts and has ensured that the committee’s findings have been laid before both Houses of Parliament.

This is not a frivolous amendment. It is about a very serious national security issue. The fact that all four noble Lords who have held the office of Metropolitan Police Commissioner are sitting here at this time of night is an indication that there may be something we need to consider. There are no vacancies at present in any of these four posts. A referral to the ISC would create no delay. If that is not what the Government wish to do, what does the Minister propose to do to mitigate this situation?

Lord Condon (CB): My Lords, I put my name to Amendment 105, not seeking to undermine Clause 126 in any way. I supported Clause 126 at Second Reading and spoke of the example of a Canadian Governor of the Bank of England. I am certainly not against, in principle, the notion of exceptional overseas candidates leading police forces in the UK. Like my noble friend Lord Blair, I am merely seeking to explore the additional challenges and hurdles of appointing an overseas candidate to one of the posts mentioned in the amendment. In particular, I would like to explore the challenges of appointing an American citizen to the post of commissioner. Without overpersonalising it, I believe we got reasonably close to an attempt to appoint an American the last time there was a vacancy for that post.

An American citizen has an unequivocal duty, first and foremost, to the laws, constitution and interests of the United States of America. Imagine an American appointed to the post of commissioner who finds himself or herself in the Cabinet Office briefing room with the Prime Minister and heads of the security services at a time of national crisis. This country and the United States of America might have subtle, or even significant, policy differences and interests at that time. In the recent past, for example, extraordinary rendition, Irish terrorism and mega-data collection have all led to subtle or significant differences between our country’s policy approach and that of the United States of America, one of our oldest allies. There are additional challenges which are not insurmountable but it is important to place on record that these issues must be taken account of at some stage when the Prime Minister and Home Secretary of the day get close to appointing an overseas candidate.

In addition, the commissioner has a personal role in protecting the monarch andthose in the line of succession, whether they are in this country or anywhere in the world. I had the honour of holding the post of commissioner for seven years and swore an oath of allegiance to Her Majesty the Queen. There will be times in the future when there may be subtle or significant differences over protection arrangements for our monarch and the line of succession when they find themselves in other parts of the world. Again, these are not insurmountable challenges but they are important considerations to have on record. No other country, as my noble friend Lord Blair has said, has even come close to considering a foreign national in an equivalent security-sensitive senior police post.