Hughes of Stretford, B.

Hughes of Woodside, L.

Hunt of Chesterton, L.

Hunt of Kings Heath, L.

Hurd of Westwell, L.

Imbert, L.

Irvine of Lairg, L.

Janvrin, L.

Joffe, L.

Jones of Moulsecoomb, B.

Jones of Whitchurch, B.

Jones, L.

Jordan, L.

Kakkar, L.

Kalms, L.

Kennedy of Cradley, B.

Kennedy of Southwark, L.

Kennedy of The Shaws, B.

Kerr of Kinlochard, L.

Kidron, B.

Kilclooney, L.

King of Bow, B.

Kinnock of Holyhead, B.

Kirkhill, L.

Knight of Weymouth, L.

Laming, L.

Lawrence of Clarendon, B.

Lawson of Blaby, L.

Lea of Crondall, L.

Leitch, L.

Liddell of Coatdyke, B.

Liddle, L.

Linklater of Butterstone, B.

Lister of Burtersett, B.

Listowel, E.

Liverpool, E.

Lloyd of Berwick, L.

Low of Dalston, L.

Lucas, L.

Luce, L.

Lyell, L.

Lytton, E.

McAvoy, L.

McConnell of Glenscorrodale, L.

McDonagh, B.

Macdonald of River Glaven, L.

Macdonald of Tradeston, L.

McFall of Alcluith, L.

McIntosh of Hudnall, B.

MacKenzie of Culkein, L.

McKenzie of Luton, L.

Maginnis of Drumglass, L.

Mallalieu, B.

Mandelson, L.

Masham of Ilton, B.

Massey of Darwen, B.

Mawhinney, L.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1545

Mawson, L.

Maxton, L.

Mayhew of Twysden, L.

Mendelsohn, L.

Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.

Miller of Hendon, B.

Monks, L.

Moonie, L.

Morgan of Drefelin, B.

Morgan of Ely, B.

Morgan of Huyton, B.

Morgan, L.

Morris of Aberavon, L.

Morris of Handsworth, L.

Morris of Yardley, B.

Myners, L.

Neuberger, B.

Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.

Northbrook, L.

Nye, B.

O'Cathain, B.

O'Loan, B.

O'Neill of Bengarve, B.

O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.

Ouseley, L.

Palmer, L.

Palumbo of Southwark, L.

Patel of Bradford, L.

Patel, L. [Teller]

Pearson of Rannoch, L.

Pendry, L.

Phillips of Sudbury, L.

Phillips of Worth Matravers, L.

Pitkeathley, B.

Plant of Highfield, L.

Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.

Prashar, B.

Prescott, L.

Prosser, B.

Quin, B.

Quirk, L.

Radice, L.

Ramsay of Cartvale, B.

Ramsbotham, L.

Rea, L.

Redesdale, L.

Rees of Ludlow, L.

Rendell of Babergh, B.

Ribeiro, L.

Richard, L.

Ripon and Leeds, Bp.

Robertson of Port Ellen, L.

Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.

Rogan, L.

Rooker, L.

Rosser, L.

Rowe-Beddoe, L.

Rowlands, L.

Royall of Blaisdon, B.

St Albans, Bp.

St John of Bletso, L.

Sandwich, E.

Sawyer, L.

Scott of Foscote, L.

Shackleton of Belgravia, B.

Simon, V.

Singh of Wimbledon, L.

Skidelsky, L.

Slim, V.

Smith of Basildon, B.

Smith of Finsbury, L.

Smith of Gilmorehill, B.

Snape, L.

Soley, L.

Sterling of Plaistow, L.

Stern of Brentford, L.

Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, L.

Stevenson of Balmacara, L.

Stewartby, L.

Stirrup, L.

Stoddart of Swindon, L.

Stone of Blackheath, L.

Strasburger, L.

Sutherland of Houndwood, L.

Symons of Vernham Dean, B.

Taverne, L.

Taylor of Blackburn, L.

Taylor of Bolton, B.

Temple-Morris, L.

Thomas of Gresford, L.

Thomas of Swynnerton, L.

Thornton, B.

Tombs, L.

Tomlinson, L.

Tonge, B.

Trees, L.

Trenchard, V.

Triesman, L.

Trumpington, B.

Truscott, L.

Tunnicliffe, L.

Turnberg, L.

Turner of Camden, B.

Tyler of Enfield, B.

Uddin, B.

Vinson, L.

Walker of Aldringham, L.

Wall of New Barnet, B.

Walpole, L.

Walton of Detchant, L.

Warner, L.

Warnock, B.

Warwick of Undercliffe, B.

Watson of Invergowrie, L.

West of Spithead, L.

Wheeler, B.

Whitaker, B.

Whitty, L.

Wigley, L.

Wilkins, B.

Williams of Baglan, L.

Williams of Elvel, L.

Wills, L.

Wilson of Dinton, L.

Winston, L.

Wood of Anfield, L.

Woolf, L.

Worthington, B.

Young of Hornsey, B.

Young of Norwood Green, L.


Addington, L.

Ahmad of Wimbledon, L.

Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller]

Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.

Astor of Hever, L.

Attlee, E.

Avebury, L.

Baker of Dorking, L.

Balfe, L.

Barker, B.

Bates, L.

Benjamin, B.

Berridge, B.

Black of Brentwood, L.

Blencathra, L.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1546

Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.

Borwick, L.

Bourne of Aberystwyth, L.

Brabazon of Tara, L.

Bradshaw, L.

Bridgeman, V.

Brinton, B.

Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.

Byford, B.

Caithness, E.

Carrington of Fulham, L.

Cavendish of Furness, L.

Chadlington, L.

Chalker of Wallasey, B.

Coe, L.

Colwyn, L.

Cope of Berkeley, L.

Courtown, E.

De Mauley, L.

Deben, L.

Dholakia, L.

Dixon-Smith, L.

Dobbs, L.

Dykes, L.

Eaton, B.

Eccles of Moulton, B.

Eccles, V.

Empey, L.

Evans of Parkside, L.

Falkner of Margravine, B.

Faulks, L.

Feldman, L.

Fellowes of West Stafford, L.

Fink, L.

Flight, L.

Framlingham, L.

Freeman, L.

Freud, L.

Garden of Frognal, B.

Gardiner of Kimble, L.

Garel-Jones, L.

German, L.

Glasgow, E.

Glentoran, L.

Gold, L.

Goodlad, L.

Grade of Yarmouth, L.

Grender, B.

Hamilton of Epsom, L.

Hamwee, B.

Hanham, B.

Harris of Richmond, B.

Henley, L.

Heyhoe Flint, B.

Higgins, L.

Hill of Oareford, L.

Hodgson of Abinger, B.

Holmes of Richmond, L.

Horam, L.

Howe, E.

Howell of Guildford, L.

Humphreys, B.

Hunt of Wirral, L.

Hussain, L.

Hussein-Ece, B.

James of Blackheath, L.

Jay of Ewelme, L.

Jenkin of Kennington, B.

Jenkin of Roding, L.

Jolly, B.

Jones of Cheltenham, L.

Jopling, L.

King of Bridgwater, L.

Kirkham, L.

Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.

Kramer, B.

Lang of Monkton, L.

Lee of Trafford, L.

Leigh of Hurley, L.

Lester of Herne Hill, L.

Lexden, L.

Lindsay, E.

Lingfield, L.

Lipsey, L.

Livingston of Parkhead, L.

Loomba, L.

Lothian, M.

Luke, L.

MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.

McNally, L.

Maddock, B.

Magan of Castletown, L.

Marland, L.

Montagu of Beaulieu, L.

Morris of Bolton, B.

Moynihan, L.

Naseby, L.

Nash, L.

Newby, L. [Teller]

Newlove, B.

Noakes, B.

Northover, B.

Norton of Louth, L.

Oppenheim-Barnes, B.

Paddick, L.

Palmer of Childs Hill, L.

Palumbo, L.

Parminter, B.

Perry of Southwark, B.

Popat, L.

Powell of Bayswater, L.

Purvis of Tweed, L.

Randerson, B.

Rawlings, B.

Razzall, L.

Rennard, L.

Risby, L.

Roberts of Llandudno, L.

Roper, L.

Ryder of Wensum, L.

Sanderson of Bowden, L.

Sassoon, L.

Scott of Needham Market, B.

Seccombe, B.

Selkirk of Douglas, L.

Selsdon, L.

Sharkey, L.

Shaw of Northstead, L.

Sheikh, L.

Shephard of Northwold, B.

Sherbourne of Didsbury, L.

Shipley, L.

Shrewsbury, E.

Shutt of Greetland, L.

Skelmersdale, L.

Smith of Clifton, L.

Spicer, L.

Steel of Aikwood, L.

Stephen, L.

Stoneham of Droxford, L.

Stowell of Beeston, B.

Strathclyde, L.

Suttie, B.

Taylor of Goss Moor, L.

Taylor of Holbeach, L.

Taylor of Warwick, L.

Teverson, L.

Thomas of Winchester, B.

Trefgarne, L.

Trimble, L.

Tugendhat, L.

Tyler, L.

Verma, B.

Wakeham, L.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1547

Wallace of Tankerness, L.

Warsi, B.

Wasserman, L.

Watson of Richmond, L.

Wei, L.

Wilcox, B.

Williams of Trafford, B.

Willis of Knaresborough, L.

Younger of Leckie, V.

6.20 pm

Amendment 2 not moved.

Amendment 3

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

3: Clause 1, page 2, line 6, leave out paragraph (a)

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, in Committee, Clause 1(5)(a) was the subject of some debate. It and the related provision in Clause 21 have also been a subject between the Home Office and the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Essentially, this provision places a duty on the court to avoid, as far as practicable, imposing prohibitions or requirements in an injunction or a criminal behaviour order which would conflict with the respondent’s religious beliefs.

The Government have consistently maintained that this provision related to the manifestation of the respondent’s religious beliefs, rather than to the religious belief per se. However, for the avoidance of doubt, we have decided not to remove the provision from the Bill, on the basis that the courts would in any event, by virtue of the operation of the Human Rights Act, be bound to consider whether the proposed prohibitions or requirements were compatible with the respondent’s convention rights, including but not limited to the right to the freedom of religion. I beg to move.

The Earl of Lytton (CB): My Lords, I can quite understand the reason why this particular safeguard or defence in injunctive procedures is to be removed. The noble Lord may rest assured that I am with him as far as the argument goes. I have written to his noble friend and had an answer this morning pointing out that, in normal civil injunctive proceedings, there are a significant number of available defences—depending on how one counts them, 15 or 20 or more. The Bill as it stands would have allowed for three; this will reduce it to two.

I still do not understand, because in his letter to me—which I thank him very much for, and for keeping me in the loop on correspondence generally to do with this Bill—the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, merely said that he did not agree with me. He did not explain why in one set of civil injunctive proceedings under this Bill there will remain two defences, but in any other injunctive proceedings there will be 15 or more. That seems a two-tier approach, so what is the direction of travel in that respect?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, perhaps I may come back to the noble Earl in advance of Third Reading on that to specifically clarify the issues that he has raised. In terms of what the Government have done thus far, our understanding and direction of travel is clear, responding directly to the concerns raised on this issue.

Amendment 3 agreed.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1548

Amendment 4

Moved by Baroness Hamwee

4: Clause 1, page 2, line 18, at end insert—

“( ) For the purpose of determining whether the condition mentioned in subsection (2) is fulfilled, the court shall disregard any act of the respondent which he or she shows was reasonable in the circumstances.”

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, Amendments, 4, 5, 24 and 25 are all directed at a defence for an application for an IPNA or for a criminal behaviour order. My amendments are different from definitions of the first condition which is the requirement for an injunction or an order.

There must be cases where the conduct can be expected—or maybe we will end up with “reasonably be expected”—to cause the impacts that we have been debating. Nevertheless, there is good reason for that conduct. It is not clear to me if, as drafted, there is any defence other than “I didn’t do it” or that the conduct does not meet the test.

In the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, Section 1(5) includes a provision similar to the one which I have set out in two of these amendments—that:

“For the purpose of determining whether the condition”,

of the test,

“is fulfilled, the court shall disregard any act … which … was reasonable in the circumstances”.

In case that point is not clear enough, I have specifically used the term “defence” in my more homemade Amendments 5 and 25.

There must be an opportunity for the respondent or defendant to explain himself, and I would not be happy to leave whether or not to proceed to the discretion of the applicant or prosecuting authority, whichever we are talking about. At the previous stage, the Minister said that he would take away the first of each pair of these amendments to explore whether it was appropriate to introduce an explicit reference to reasonableness. I appreciate that he went three-quarters of the way to doing so this afternoon. I know that he gave no commitment at that stage, but in any event I do not believe that his amendment, had he pursued it, would have met the point of a defence. Conduct which could reasonably be expected to cause nuisance or annoyance might still be conduct for which, in particular circumstances, there is good reason. The court should actively have to consider this.

The point is made more important by the fact that it is likely in this area that there will be a lot of litigants in person, so the legislation itself needs to be extremely clear.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Hamwee for her explanation of these amendments. She explained that they seek to provide the respondent or offender with a defence as to why an injunction or criminal behaviour order, which are also included in these amendments, should not be granted—namely, that the behaviour was reasonable in the circumstances. My noble friend has pointed out that this issue is distinct from the amendment that we have already debated, which is related to the first condition for the grant of an injunction.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1549

If I may respond at this point to the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, about his queries in the previous debate, I can say that the provisions in Clause 1(5) are not defences; they are factors for the court to take into account when imposing restrictions or requirements. The two issues mentioned should not be confused with defence issues.

The Earl of Lytton: Do I understand from the Minister then that the normal range of civil defences would continue to apply in the normal way, in connection with matters under this Bill as everywhere else?

6.30 pm

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: As I understand it, that is the case. I was going on to argue the question of defences because that was the issue that my noble friend wanted to sort out. However, I hope that we have saved the price of a stamp by clearing that up in the Chamber.

In effect, my noble friend is seeking to argue that it is not enough to be able to establish, in the case of the injunction, that the conduct in question could reasonably be expected to cause nuisance or annoyance but that it should also be necessary to show that the conduct was unreasonable in the circumstances. My noble friend has pointed to the reasonableness defence in Section 1 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, which applies to the ASBO on application, although it is worth noting that no such defence is contained in Section 1C of that Act, which relates to the ASBO on conviction. I am sympathetic to the point that she raised and I hope to persuade her that it is already effectively covered.

I will deal first with the injunction. As my noble friend will be aware, the second condition that must be satisfied is that the court considers that it is “just and convenient” to grant an injunction for the purpose of preventing the respondent from engaging in anti-social behaviour. As I have already indicated, in applying this limb of the test, the court will look at whether it is reasonable and proportionate in the circumstances of the case to grant an injunction. It will be open to the respondent to argue that he or she had a good reason for his or her conduct. The court will weigh that up against the evidence submitted by the applicant and come to a view. If the court is satisfied that the reason put forward by the respondent is a sound one, I fully expect it to conclude that it will not be just and convenient to grant an injunction. Therefore, the defence is, in practice, inherent in the drafting of Clause 1 as it stands.

In the case of the criminal behaviour order, it is again important to look at the wider context in which the court will apply the test in Clause 21. The same public law principles of reasonableness and proportionality will apply. It would therefore be open to the offender to argue that there were reasonable grounds for the conduct in question, which the court would then consider alongside the evidence presented by the Crown Prosecution Service.

I might add that there is no reasonableness defence in Section 1C of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, which provides for ASBOs on conviction—the forerunner to the criminal behaviour order. That section does, however, stipulate that the court may consider evidence

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1550

presented by the prosecution or the defence, which will be the position in relation to the criminal behaviour order, albeit that is not expressly stated in the Bill.

In addition, it is worth pointing out that, in deciding whether to apply for a criminal behaviour order, the Crown Prosecution Service would need to be satisfied that there was sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of obtaining an order and that it was in the public interest to apply for an order. The prosecution would therefore consider any evidence which showed that the conduct of the respondent was reasonable in the circumstances.

In short, the point made by my noble friend is well made. I assure her that a respondent or offender will be able to raise such a defence, which will then be properly considered by the court alongside evidence submitted by the applicant for the injunction or order. In the light of this reassurance, I do not believe that these amendments are necessary and, as a result, I hope that my noble friend will be prepared to withdraw Amendment 4.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, my noble friend is having a difficult enough day, so I reassure him immediately that I will seek to withdraw the amendment.

I notice the reference to the public interest test in the case of the criminal behaviour order. As regards the injunction—this is not a matter for this afternoon—I wonder whether my noble friend might consider a reference to the point in the statutory guidance. I reassure my noble and learned friend that I am seeking not guidance to the court—I would not dare—but guidance to potential applicants in order to prevent them going forward if it is not appropriate that they should go forward in the circumstances that I sought to outline. As I said, it is not a matter for this afternoon and I know that the Government are consulting on the guidance but I hope that my comment at this point can be taken as a contribution to that consultation. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 4 withdrawn.

Amendment 5 not moved.

Amendment 6

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

6: Clause 1, page 2, leave out line 19 and insert “An application for an injunction under this section must be made to—”

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, in developing our anti-social behaviour reforms, the Government have, both formally and informally, sought the views of the front-line professionals who will use the new powers. We have listened to them and, where appropriate, have accepted constructive proposals to improve the measures in the Bill. The amendments in this group exemplify this approach.

Under Clause 1(8), applications for injunctions against over-18s to prevent nuisance and annoyance will be heard in the county court and applications against under-18s will be heard in the youth court. However, some cases of anti-social behaviour involve mixed groups of under and over-18s. To allow for such cases,

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1551

Amendment 19 would enable rules of court to be made which would, in turn, enable the organisation applying for an injunction to seek permission from the youth court for the application against the adult—or, indeed, applications if there is more than one adult—to be heard in the youth court alongside the applications in respect of one or more under-18s. The youth court may grant the application if it is “in the interests of justice”. If not, the application will be denied and the application in respect of the adults will be heard in the county court in the normal way.

If the case is heard in the youth court and an IPNA is granted, Amendments 8, 9, 10 and 11 provide that any subsequent proceedings in relation to the adults will be heard in the county court—for example, if there are proceedings for a breach. Only the initial application for the grant of an injunction will be heard in the youth court.

Amendments 6, 7 and 21 are consequential on Amendment 19. These amendments help put victims first. In most cases, it will prevent them having to attend court and give evidence twice. The amendments will also reduce costs and save court time. By linking these hearings in the youth court, we will retain the experience and expertise of its judges in protecting the best interests of respondents under 18. I beg to move.

Lord Rosser (Lab): We understand the reasons for these amendments and for wanting to try to ensure that cases involving those under 18 and those who are adult, where they relate to the same issue, can be tried or dealt with in the same court. Therefore, I certainly have no wish to argue against the principle of what the Government are seeking to achieve. However, in the letter that the Minister sent to us on 18 December, in which he outlined these amendments that were being tabled, he said in respect of this issue:

“We believe that it is in the best interests of respondents aged under 18 for linked cases involving adults to be transferred to the youth court rather than vice versa”.

Can he confirm that that means that a case could not be held in the adult court if somebody aged 18 was involved? Perhaps for the sake of argument I may take as an example—perhaps it is very exceptional—a case where there are, say, four or five adults and one person under 18 who happens to be 17 and a half. Under these amendments, is it the Government’s position that it would not be possible, if the parties wanted it, for the matter to be dealt with in the adult court? Are they saying that if the cases are going to be dealt with together, that can happen only in the youth court? I should be grateful if the Minister could clarify that point.

I stress that we are not opposed to what the Government are seeking to achieve, but I pose the question in the light of the sentence in the letter that was sent to us where reference was made to believing it to be,

“in the best interests of respondents aged under 18 for linked cases involving adults to be transferred to the youth court rather than vice versa”.

Does that mean that they could never be held in the adult court, even if for example there were four or five adults and one under 18? I think that I know the answer to this, but could the Minister say why the Government

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1552

believe that it is in the best interests of respondents aged under 18 for linked cases to be in the youth court rather than vice versa?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, I will clarify that. As was put down in the letter of my noble friend on the final point, there is an understanding and appreciation that with youths under 18, youth courts have certain specialist knowledge in dealing with these cases. The point, which has been raised over and again, is that one of the key things, especially when it comes to such matters, is reforming and addressing particular issues, and ensuring that we prevent reoffending. We feel that the youth courts, particularly in the cases of under-18s, are best placed to deal with these issues. I can confirm that a case involving a person under 18 cannot be transferred to the country court in any circumstances.

Amendment 6 agreed

Amendment 7

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

7: Clause 1, page 2, line 21, at end insert—

“Paragraph (b) is subject to any rules of court made under section 18(1A).”

Amendment 7 agreed.

Clause 7: Variation or discharge of injunctions

Amendment 8

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

8: Clause 7, page 5, line 6, at end insert—

“( ) In subsection (1) “the court” means—

(a) the court that granted the injunction, except where paragraph (b) applies;

(b) the county court, where the injunction was granted by a youth court but the respondent is aged 18 or over.”

Amendment 8 agreed.

Clause 8: Arrest without warrant

Amendments 9 and 10

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

9: Clause 8, page 5, line 31, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert—

“(b) a judge of the county court, if—

(i) the injunction was granted by the county court, or

(ii) the injunction was granted by a youth court but the respondent is aged 18 or over;

(c) a justice of the peace, if neither paragraph (a) nor paragraph (b) applies.”

10: Clause 8, page 5, line 40, leave out from “injunction” to end of line 42

Amendments 9 and 10 agreed.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1553

Clause 9: Issue of arrest warrant

Amendment 11

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

11: Clause 9, page 6, line 8, leave out paragraphs (b) and (c) and insert—

“(b) a judge of the county court, if—

(i) the injunction was granted by the county court, or

(ii) the injunction was granted by a youth court but the respondent is aged 18 or over;

(c) a justice of the peace, if neither paragraph (a) nor paragraph (b) applies.”

Amendment 11 agreed.

Schedule 2: Breach of injunctions: powers of court in respect of under-18s

Amendment 12

Moved by The Earl of Listowel

12: Schedule 2, page 138, line 34, leave out paragraph (b)

The Earl of Listowel (CB): My Lords, I will speak also to the other amendments in my name in this group. Amendments 12 and 13 to Schedule 2, and Amendments 34 and 35 to Clause 37, seek to remove imprisonment as a sanction for children breaching their IPNAs or failing to comply with police dispersal orders respectively. Schedule 2 provides for supervision orders to be made against children breaching their IPNAs. This is adequate for dealing with children of all ages. There is no need to introduce detention as an additional sanction for over-14s. The case for why this is necessary has not been made. Will the Minister explain why this is seen by the Government as necessary?

Amendment 34 removes imprisonment as a sanction for children failing to comply with a police dispersal order. Amendment 35 sets out a range of alternative sanctions for such children. These measures aim to ensure that the discretion of the court is not fettered. I am grateful to the Minister for allowing us an opportunity to meet yesterday to discuss my concerns in this area. I will come to my final Amendment 86 in this group, which is on youth services, when I have discussed the other amendments.

There are two key reasons why imprisonment should not be available for children breaching their IPNA or failing to comply with a police dispersal order or power. First, imprisonment is expensive, ineffective and counterproductive. In 2010-11 the reoffending rate for children leaving custody was 72.6%. Youth custody is expensive. The average cost of a place at a secure training centre is £178,000 per annum. There is clear evidence to suggest that for many children, incarceration increases the risk of recidivism. Imprisoning children, even for a short period, can introduce them to criminal networks that become impossible to escape later.

I fear that we may be introducing more children to schools of crime and preparing them for later universities of crime. I have visited many young offender institutions and secure training centres. I visited Feltham young offender institution 13 or 15 years ago, and then visited

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1554

it recently with a number of chief executives from London local authorities and the chair of the Youth Justice Board, Frances Done. It was striking how much things had changed in that time. Thanks to this Government, there are far fewer young people in custody, which is very much to be welcomed. Those young people who are left are very challenging, tough and difficult to work with. In the Bill, we are considering bringing in some young people—children—who have not even committed a crime to spend three months or so in detention with these very hard nuts. Do we really want to mix such children with such children?

From that visit to Feltham young offender institution, the concern of the chief executives of the local authorities in London about gang violence also became clear. We heard a transformation from my first visit to Feltham. No longer were two young people getting into a fight with one young person, but 13, 14 or 15 young men would be attacking one or two boys because they were not in the right gang. It was important for the secure estate to know from the local authorities which gangs their particular boys came from, so that they could manage the risks around that.

6.45 pm

There is also a concern that we are bringing into these conditions young people who may not be a member of the right gang and may be victimised because of that. If they are not a member of a gang, one can speculate that they will be by the end of their time in the secure estate, because they will need to be to survive. I am very concerned about introducing more young people into the secure estate, given how much risk for them is involved and how detrimental for us it might be for them to have that experience.

The second main reason for opposing imprisonment is that it is a severe and anomalous punishment that may be incompatible with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Allowing children to be imprisoned for IPNA breach or non-compliance with a police dispersal power is inconsistent with how prison is used in the wider youth justice system. In the criminal justice system, children are imprisoned only for the most serious offences or for persistent offending. Failure to comply with a police dispersal order is only a minor offence. IPNA breach is a civil offence—a contempt of court. This Bill introduces for the first time detention for children who are in contempt of court for minor civil wrongs. Currently the law does not allow this to happen, except in very limited circumstances.

Arguably, imprisoning children for IPNA breach or failure to comply with a police dispersal order is not consistent with the UK’s obligations as a signatory of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. Article 37 of UNCRC states that children should be imprisoned only as a “measure of last resort”. The United Nations standard minimum rules for the administration of juvenile justice—the Beijing Rules—state that:

“Deprivation of personal liberty shall not be imposed unless the juvenile is adjudicated of a serious act involving violence against another person or a persistence in committing other serious offences and unless there is no other appropriate response”.

I would argue that there are a number of other appropriate responses.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1555

In conclusion, I assure the Minister that Amendment 86, on youth services and the duty on local authorities to secure appropriate services to prevent young people from being involved in anti-social behaviour, is merely a probing amendment. I would like to see the Minister attending to and looking at the statutory guidance for local authorities on services and activities to improve young people’s well-being. I support the broad principle set out in the guidance and acknowledge the reference there to youth work, and to young people’s personal and social development. However, the guidance is so broad in its interpretation that all local authorities are able to say that they are meeting some of these requirements so far as is reasonably practicable. Because the guidance says specifically that government will not prescribe which services and activities for young people local authorities should fund or deliver, or to what level, I am sure that more than ever the level of support that young people get access to is determined by where they live.

Last year, spending on youth services declined by 10% overall. Spending on getting young people off drugs and alcohol declined by 18%. If we are to be serious about preventing anti-social behaviour—and especially if we are talking about putting young people in custody because of their anti-social behaviour—it is important that we ensure that we have the vital youth services that will prevent this behaviour. This is a healthier and more civilised way of intervening with these young people, and it is well evidenced in preventing such behaviour. I would appreciate the Minister’s assurance that he will look at the guidance and consider whether it might be tightened to some degree to ensure that adequate youth services are provided.

It is welcome that considerable funding is being given to police and crime commissioners in this area, but what all young people need, particularly vulnerable young people, is continuity of relationships. They need to build a relationship of trust with an institution or an individual, they need their youth clubs—and they need them to be there over a period of time, not opening and closing depending on the whims of the local authority or the state of the economy.

I am sorry to have spoken for so long, but perhaps I may conclude by saying how sad I was to learn of the death of Mr Paul Goggins MP, a former Minister for Prisons and a well respected parliamentarian, with whom I had the privilege of working on a number of occasions as the vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for Children and Young People in Care. He began life as a social worker and managed a children’s home. He tabled in the other place an amendment to the Children and Families Bill that is currently proceeding through this House, which the Government eventually accepted. It is described as one of the most important changes for looked-after children in a generation and allows young people to remain in foster care with their foster carers until the age of 21, where they choose to do so. The Government are supporting that with £40 million for its implementation. He also worked very hard to introduce special financial provision for looked-after young people and did much other work in this area. I am sorry to hear of his early demise and

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1556

I hope that it will be of some comfort to his family to know of the respect in which he is held by this and the other place.

I beg to move.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, the noble Earl knows how sympathetic I am to his amendments, particularly in regard to detention. I made a cack-handed attempt at about 11.43 pm on day 4 out of five of Committee to raise issues about Schedule 2, and I have some questions for the Minister.

I am aware that Part 1 of Schedule 2 contains some significant safeguards—I hope the Minister will not feel upset at my using that term—and that paragraph 1(3)(a) provides that the applicant for a supervision order or a detention order must consult the youth offending team. There is no explicit provision for the court to consult the youth offending team although it may be good practice. Can he give me any reassurance on that score?

Secondly, is the Minister able to give me an example—I am sorry if it seems as though I am harking back to an approach adopted in an earlier debate, but I have asked this question before and it will not come as a surprise to him—of such a severe or extensive breach that only detention would be appropriate, without that activity also being a criminal matter? Perhaps he will also say whether there is a role for guidance from the Home Office, and what that role might be, for rules of court and for sentencing guidelines in this connection.

Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): My Lords, I have not always felt that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has addressed herself to issues that are hugely important or pertinent in this Bill, although she has gone into a great deal of detail. However, the point that she has just raised about the circumstances in which the Government envisage these powers in respect of juveniles being appropriate is extremely important.

There is a risk that the Government will, no doubt inadvertently, create a perfect storm around some of these matters. The powers under the dispersal order—we will come to this later—can be exercised without proper prior consultation. This can then lead to young people in breach of a dispersal order being potentially subject to detention, with all the consequences that the noble Earl described.

I can envisage circumstances in which the perhaps over-hasty, ill thought through use of dispersal order powers will lead to young people being rounded up and to some of them, because they are in breach of a dispersal order, being potentially subject to detention. That seems to be a toxic cocktail for community relations in many of our towns and cities.

Therefore the question that the noble Baroness has just asked the Minister is extremely important. What are the circumstances in which it is envisaged that detention is the appropriate outcome of a breach of, in particular, a dispersal order? What are the circumstances? What is the context in which this will be done? Are the Government going to provide sufficient guidance to make that clear? Otherwise, I can envisage circumstances in which young people will be detained as a consequence of something that was perhaps ill thought through at the time, with enormous social consequences.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1557

Lord Lucas (Con): My Lords, I share the noble Earl’s appreciation of the late Paul Goggins, in my case from when he was a very good Prisons Minister. I am equally sad to learn of his death.

In the context of these amendments I share his concerns that we should be looking at detention for, as it were, a first offence; for something which, as my noble friend Lady Hamwee pointed out, might not even be a criminal offence. If it is a criminal offence, of course, we do not need the detention powers in the first place. I look forward with interest to what my noble friend has to say. I hope that he has been allowed to be more helpful to my noble friend Lady Hamwee than he was on a previous amendment.

Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for his generous and kind comments, which we appreciate, for our former colleague Paul Goggins. He was an exceptional MP and, for those who knew him and were very fond him, he was an exceptional person as well. We are very sad to lose him.

On the amendments, rather along the lines of the issues raised by my noble friend Lord Harris of Haringey, perhaps I may ask some questions about dispersal orders. The extension of dispersal orders that the Government are proposing seems quite strange. Previously, dispersal orders were for 24 hours, with democratic oversight in consultation with the local authority, and covered a restrained geographical area. That has changed because under the Government’s proposals they are for 48 hours with a much wider geographical area. There is no involvement of the local authority but there is the involvement of a member of the police force of the rank of inspector or above.

The Minister will recall that we discussed in Committee the lack of clarity around the operation of dispersal orders. A number of questions were put to the Minister but we did not get answers then. Given this extension and the change in how the Government want dispersal orders to operate, it is a concern that the detention, particularly for young children, would remain for a much broader and wider offence about which we have had very little information, and I read the debate again today. It raises some questions for the Minister to answer. Why does he think that these dispersal orders are appropriate? Does he think it likely that, because of the wider area, the increased length of time and the fact that there is no democratic oversight, we shall see more dispersal orders? Is it appropriate in those cases that we may see more breaches of them?

It raises a concern that something as minor as a dispersal order, which can be issued by a police offer on the spur of the moment, when there is not really a process in the way we would expect, could lead to detention. The extension of how the Government are planning to use dispersal orders in the future, retaining detention for young people if there is a breach, gives rise to concern. Will the Minister explain why he thinks it appropriate, how he thinks it will be used and on how many occasions? I am concerned that we may see an increase in dispersal orders. I am very unhappy about the Government’s proposals in any case, but if we see an increase there could be an increased number

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1558

of breaches and we could then see detention of young people. Will the Minister explain how this will operate and why he thinks it is appropriate?

7 pm

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I start by joining in the tributes being paid to Paul Goggins. I know that my colleagues in the Home Office share this view. We were together yesterday evening when his illness was mentioned. His loss this morning is a loss to British public life and I am happy to pay tribute.

I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for tabling these amendments. It is right and proper that we consider these matters. His amendments raise important issues about whether detention is appropriate for someone aged under 18, and we debated this at some length in Committee. I was pleased that we had the opportunity for a productive meeting yesterday and I hope that I will be able to answer some of the points made by the noble Earl and other noble Lords.

The Government strongly support the use of informal interventions and rehabilitative approaches, particularly when dealing with young people. That is at the heart of our overall approach to anti-social behaviour. However, detention must be available to the court if the new injunction is to act as an effective deterrent and to protect victims and communities in the most serious cases. When we consulted on the new anti-social behaviour powers, 57% of those who responded were in favour of the breach sanctions for the injunction for under-18s. Only 22% disagreed, with only a further 4% against any custody for under-18s.

The injunction is a court order and must be supported by tough sanctions to ensure compliance. However, in contrast to anti-social behaviour orders, under-18s will not be unnecessarily criminalised and saddled with a criminal record for breach. However, it is only in the most serious or persistent cases of breach that a court may detain someone aged under 18. Schedule 2 to the Bill makes clear that a court may not detain a young person for breach of an IPNA,

“unless it is satisfied that, in view of the severity or extent of the breach, no other power available to the court is appropriate”.

Where this is not the case, the court may impose a supervision order on a young person and Part 2 of Schedule 2 to the Bill sets out a number of non-custodial requirements that can be attached to such an order. The relevant requirements are a supervision requirement, an activity requirement or a curfew requirement. These are three of the requirements which may be attached to a youth rehabilitation order, the youth equivalent of a community sentence.

We would expect the youth courts to do all they can to ensure that a young person’s rehabilitation is effective. In making any decision to make a detention order, the court must consult with the youth offending team and inform any other body or individual the applicant thinks appropriate. If the court does decide to make a detention order, it must give its reasons in open court. The availability of custody as a sanction in exceptional cases reflects the current position as regards the anti-social behaviour order on application. Indeed, breach of an ASBO on application attracts a maximum penalty of five years’ imprisonment as well as a criminal record.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1559

The previous Administration took the view that there needed to be effective sanctions for breach up to and including imprisonment, including in cases involving young people. While it was generous of the noble Earl to congratulate the previous Government on this aspect of their policy, we do not believe that they got the balance quite right between punishment and rehabilitation. That is why we are treating breach of the IPNA as a contempt of court rather than as a criminal offence: we believe that they were right to include the option of custody for both adults and juveniles. To remove that option for juveniles would significantly weaken the effectiveness of the injunction and thereby weaken the protection we are seeking to afford to the victims of anti-social behaviour.

I shall address some of the concerns expressed by the noble Earl and other noble Lords. Of course, a vital part of preparing for the introduction of these new powers will be appropriate training and support for the judiciary, police and other front-line professionals in how these powers are applied to young people, and the Home Office is already discussing these requirements with the Ministry of Justice, the Judicial College and the College of Policing.

I can inform the noble Earl that young offenders under 18 years of age may be placed in a young offender institution run by the National Offender Management Service, NOMS, a privately operated secure training centre or a local authority secure children’s home. Placement is made by the placements team of the youth justice board, which is notified by the court when custody is given. They will use their expertise and will be informed by the relevant youth offending team to place them in an appropriate establishment suitable for their needs. The youngest and most vulnerable young people will be placed in secure children’s homes. There are no longer any places for girls in young offender institutions, so they will be placed in a secure training centre or secure children’s home.

Under the Bill, the court must consider any representations made by the relevant youth offending team in considering whether to make a detention order against an under-18. Moreover, the applicant for a detention order or a supervision order must consult any youth offending team and inform any other body or individual the applicant thinks appropriate. I hope that helps to reassure the noble Earl.

I shall go on to the dispersal order.

Baroness Smith of Basildon: The noble Lord made the point about it being a contempt of court. Can he tell me in how many other cases young people can face detention for a contempt of court?

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Off the top of my head, I cannot, but I hope that the noble Baroness will allow me to write to her on that. I will copy in all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate and put a copy in the Library.

As for breach of a dispersal direction, I can offer the noble Earl some comfort and, in doing so, I should like to correct the impression I gave in Committee on 20 November that custody was an option for breach of

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1560

a dispersal direction by a person aged under 18. I can, in fact, reassure the noble Earl, the noble Lord and the noble Baroness that this is not the case. Detention and training orders—the juvenile equivalent of imprisonment —must be made for a minimum of four months. That means that where the maximum term of imprisonment that could be imposed is less than four months, as is the case here, a detention and training order is not an option in relation to a juvenile offender. The court will be left with the options of a youth rehabilitation order, a fine, a conditional discharge or an absolute discharge. I hope that is of some reassurance and apologise if my previous comments misled noble Lords. I hope I have been able to reassure the noble Earl as regards the dispersal powers.

In the case of the IPNA, I fear that we have to agree to differ on the appropriateness of having custody as a long-stop option for breach of an injunction by a person under 18. For the sake of victims of anti-social behaviour, we remain strongly of the view that, in exceptional cases, a detention order should be available to the courts. We should not weaken these provisions by removing that option.

Amendment 86, the final amendment in this group, seeks to place a new responsibility on local authorities to provide youth services to prevent young people becoming involved in anti-social behaviour. This obligation is already effectively provided for by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998, which places a responsibility on local authorities to formulate and implement a strategy for the reduction of crime and disorder in their area, where crime and disorder includes anti-social behaviour and youth anti-social behaviour. That Act includes a responsibility for local authorities to keep the strategy under review, monitor its effectiveness and alter it accordingly. Local authorities must ensure that their strategy focuses on the types of problem in their area, based on an analysis of local levels and patterns of crime and disorder, and the misuse of drugs and alcohol. Therefore, if an area has a particular problem with youth anti-social behaviour, the local authority has a responsibility to put measures in place to reduce the problem. I would expect this to include preventive measures. In addition, the Children Act 1989 places an obligation on local authorities to safeguard and promote the welfare of children in their area who are in need and to promote the upbringing of such children by their families by providing a range and level of services appropriate to those children’s needs. This includes services to prevent young people becoming involved in anti-social behaviour, crime and disorder, as well as services to support those young people and their families who become involved in anti-social behaviour or crime.

I hope I have reassured my noble friend Lady Hamwee, the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, and the noble Earl that the duty he seeks to create through this amendment already exists and that local authorities have these crime and disorder reduction strategies in place. In these circumstances, I hope the noble Earl will be prepared to withdraw his amendment.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1561

7.15 pm

The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I am most grateful to all those who have spoken: the noble Baronesses, Lady Hamwee and Lady Smith of Basildon, and the noble Lord, Lord Harris Haringey. I am grateful to the Minister for his careful reply, particularly for giving some detail about the training of the judiciary and other people in contact with young people in this regard. That is terribly important and a place where we fall down to some extent. Again, I encourage the Government to think about the use of mentors in this kind of training of professionals working around young people. It is so important to develop an understanding of young people in front-line police officers who work on a beat and regularly come into contact with such young people, and other workers. Allowing and supporting them to become mentors to a young person for a period of three to six months, and helping them to reflect on that and how it works, benefits them but also benefits the young person who often needs that kind of relationship.

The Minister made a number of other interesting and helpful points. I express some concern about the placements—the disposals, if you like—within the secure estate. Because of the Government’s success in reducing the number of young people in custody, a number of secure children’s homes have been shut down. I am not sure if the secure training centres have also shut—I think places in them have been reduced. The courts have less range and freedom in choosing disposals. Sometimes, they will simply be driven to choose what is available, even for a fairly vulnerable young person. One recalls the suicide of a young person who was recognised as being vulnerable but was sent to a secure training centre because there was no space available in a children’s home. Shortly after that, he hanged himself. That was about five years ago. There are difficult decisions to be made. This is an area we will have to agree to disagree on.

I was really pleased to hear that there will not be the detention of children under breach of dispersal orders, if I understood the Minister correctly. That is very good news. I will not keep the House any longer at this time. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 12 withdrawn.

Amendment 13 not moved.

Amendment 14

Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach

14: Schedule 2, page 139, line 31, leave out paragraph (a)

Amendment 14 agreed.

Amendment 15 not moved.

Clause 12: Power to exclude person from home in cases of violence or risk of harm

Amendment 16

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

16: Clause 12, page 6, line 36, at end insert—

“( ) the respondent is aged 18 or over,”

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1562

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, in Committee, my noble friend Lady Hamwee questioned whether it was appropriate for under-18s to be excluded from their own homes on the grounds of anti-social behaviour. After further consideration, I am content to make a change that ensures that only adults can be excluded from their home where there is a threat of violence or a significant risk of harm to others.

Councils have wider safeguarding duties and other legislation that allows for a child to be removed from the home when it is in their best interest. For instance, local councils already have duties under the Children Act 1989 to safeguard and promote the welfare of children. Where a young person is committing serious anti-social behaviour to the extent that agencies are considering applying for an injunction with the power to exclude that young person from their home, the local council should first consider whether the child is “in need” under the Children Act and, if so, provide appropriate support as an alternative to simply excluding a young person from their home. A Part 1 injunction could still play a role in transforming the young person’s life as well as protecting victims from further anti-social behaviour. However, if removing them from the family home is considered necessary, this should be done under existing legislation and not just be seen as a chance to disperse the problem to another area.

I do not believe that this change will weaken agencies’ ability to deal with anti-social behaviour caused by minors. Agencies can still apply for an injunction to stop the young person’s behaviour and the court can attach a power of arrest to the order in cases where an individual has either been violent or threatened violence when committing or threatening anti-social behaviour, or where there is a risk of significant harm to another person by that individual. The power of arrest will act as a deterrent and allow the police to take swift action to protect the victim or communities if the injunction is breached. Of course, youth offending teams will play an important role in identifying the problems that drive the young person’s behaviour and measuring the risk they pose to others to ensure that the right action is taken. However, we accept that excluding a young person from their home using an injunction will not be the right action and I therefore commend the amendment to the House. I beg to move.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, the bad news for the government Front Bench is that this amendment was put down in the flurry of amendments that my noble friend Lord Greaves and I rushed to table when the timetabling of business was changed. That encourages me to continue that sort of scattergun approach to matters I think need to be discussed in Committee, but of course I am extremely happy to see this among the government amendments and to know that the change will be made. I am very grateful to the Government for listening.

Amendment 16 agreed.

Clause 13: Tenancy injunctions: exclusion and power of arrest

Amendment 17

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

17: Clause 13, leave out Clause 13

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1563

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, this amendment follows up the debate in Committee initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, about Clause 13. This clause preserves an existing power available to social landlords to apply for tenancy injunctions to prohibit anti-social behaviour which relates to or affects their management of their housing stock.

In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, sought to challenge Clause 13 on the grounds that its provisions were not tenure-neutral. As I have indicated, Clause 13 simply preserves an existing power available to social landlords under Section 153D of the Housing Act 1996. That section, which, I might add, was inserted into the Housing Act by the previous Administration in 2003, responded to calls from social landlords that they needed to be able to hold their tenant responsible for the behaviour of visitors. However, strictly speaking, Clause 13 is not necessary, as an injunction under Clause 1 can be used to achieve the same end of holding the respondent responsible for the anti-social behaviour of the visitors to their property, regardless of tenure.

We included Clause 13 in the Bill because social landlords were familiar with tenancy injunctions. However, given the points raised in Committee by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and after further consultation with social landlords, we have decided to remove the clause to ensure that the injunction is completely tenure-neutral. This will fit in with our wider approach of simplifying anti-social behaviour powers through the Bill, while ensuring that social landlords, like the police and other agencies, will have access to the tools they need. I beg to move.

Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the government amendment. Any move towards increasing tenancy neutrality in the Bill is to be welcomed. I will raise one issue with the Minister, which arises from the letter that he sent to us setting out the reasons for the changes that were being made. The paragraph in question states:

“However, as the IPNA can do everything a tenancy injunction can do, we are satisfied that there is no compelling case for retaining this bespoke provision for those living in social housing”.

Earlier in the letter, the Minister had said:

“The provisions in respect of the IPNA are tenancy neutral”—

I am not sure whether that is regarded as different from tenure-neutral—

“save for the provisions in clause 13”.

From that, one would assume that if Clause 13 is disappearing from the scene, then the provisions in respect of the IPNA are indeed neutral. With the comment in the letter that,

“the IPNA can do everything a tenancy injunction can do”,

that was why the Government felt that they could withdraw Clause 13. Of course, not only does Clause 13 cover what is said in Clause 12(1), that an injunction,

“may have the effect of excluding the respondent from the place where he or she normally lives”,

it also states:

“The court may include in the tenancy injunction a provision prohibiting the person against whom it is granted from entering or being in … any premises specified in the injunction (including the premises where the person normally lives)”,


“any area specified in the injunction”.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1564

In the light of the statement in the letter that the IPNA can do everything a tenancy injunction can do, are we to assume that that part of Clause 13(3) would or could apply to any tenure and not simply to those tenures previously covered by the tenancy injunction? As I understand it, the Government appear to have moved on that point and the provisions in respect of the IPNA are now neutral. Bearing in mind what Clause 13(3) said, which went beyond merely,

“excluding the respondent from the place where he or she normally lives”,

which covered,

“any premises specified in the injunction”,


“any area specified in the injunction”,

is that something that is still to be reserved for social housing tenants or is it something that, if it was deemed necessary or desirable, could now be applied to anybody in any form of tenure?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, to clarify, as I said earlier in moving the amendment, an IPNA could impose the prohibitions that were specifically referred to in Clause 13 as well. For example, an IPNA could be used to deal with visitors to a property. As such, the provisions are covered in an IPNA. Therefore we have tabled the amendment in light of the comments made by the noble Lord in Committee.

Lord Rosser: That would be irrespective of tenure? It would not apply purely to social housing?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: As I stated earlier, the purpose behind the IPNA is that it would be tenure-neutral.

Amendment 17 agreed.

Clause 17: Children and young persons: disapplication of reporting restrictions

Amendment 18

Moved by The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds

18: Clause 17, leave out Clause 17

The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds: My Lords, Amendments 18, 26 and 29 set out to remove the presumption that a child will be named publicly when they are involved in youth court proceedings relating to the new anti-social behaviour orders. I am very grateful to the Children’s Society, the Standing Committee on Youth Justice and others for concentrating my thoughts on this issue.

The Bill as it is currently written suspends Section 49 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 for children subject to the new orders and breach proceedings. For 80 years, Section 49 has provided a presumption against revealing details of a child’s identity. This Bill means that children will be named publicly as a default unless the court makes an active choice not to name them. My amendments do not prevent the court from naming a child if it thinks it appropriate to do so. They simply mean that a child will not be named by default.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1565

The issue of publicly naming children is an important one. It raises a number of concerns regarding rehabilitation and safeguarding and is contrary to the usual presumption of anonymity that is granted to children in criminal proceedings. The presumption to name children has significant implications for the safeguarding of children. Naming a child publicly could mean that they are subsequently targeted by individuals or gangs wishing to exploit their vulnerability. Identifying a child as having been involved in anti-social behaviour could indicate that the child may be tempted to engage in risk-taking behaviour or that they will be more susceptible to being groomed. Children with special educational needs are also more likely to be involved in ASB, making them particularly vulnerable to exploitation.

Naming, thereby shaming, children can hinder the successful rehabilitation of those who wish to make a fresh start. It can be counterproductive by prolonging the problems that children have in re-engaging positively with their community. It can also make it extremely difficult for professionals to obtain services instrumental in a child's rehabilitation. There is little evidence that identifying a child is effective as a deterrent.

In our debates yesterday we were concerned with the Government’s very positive response to the need for education, health and care plans for children in trouble. I believe that this element of this Bill works in the opposite direction. In the age of the internet and social media, details of a child's identity are indelible once they are revealed. Children should not have this stamp on them from such a young age because it can affect their future ability to get a job, obtain housing and contribute to society. Naming and shaming through ASBOs has criminalised, stigmatised and negatively labelled young people and has in some cases perpetuated problems rather than helping to resolve them.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights has expressed concern about the impact of reporting on a child’s right to privacy in its pre-legislative scrutiny report. Naming and shaming contravenes the anonymity usually granted to children in criminal proceedings and denies the right to privacy in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. The Local Government Association has also expressed concern, especially about a child who receives or breaches an IPNA but who has not actually committed a criminal offence.

7.30 pm

Magistrates and district judges sitting in the youth court are not accustomed to considering whether to impose reporting restrictions. That is because the youth court operates under a general presumption of anonymity. Section 39 of the Children and Young Persons Act will allow a court to impose anonymity on the new ASB proceedings. However, because the court is not used to having to consider whether anonymity should apply, it is likely that children will be named without the court even considering whether a Section 39 application should be made.

I therefore want to press the Minister for some guidance. Will he consider discussing with magistrates and district judges sitting in the youth court the need to consider a Section 39 order in each case where ASB proceedings are taking place? How will they ensure

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1566

that the youth court considers whether to impose a Section 39 order in every case of a child involved in ASB proceedings? The guidance for front-line professionals accompanying the Bill should advise them to make a Section 39 application to the court when they believe that a child’s details should remain anonymous. Privacy for a child affects him or her not just at that moment but for the rest of their lives. It is something that we ought to take great care about removing. I beg to move.

The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I support the right reverend Prelate. I was grateful to the Minister for the chance to discuss this matter yesterday, and I understood from what he said that he expected the courts to use naming and shaming to a very limited extent. That is comforting to some degree, but I worry about this, because many young people who will be drawn into this procedure are the sort with whom I am familiar from my parliamentary work with young people in or on the edge of care. The familial experience—the father often absent from the home, often violence in the home, often alcohol or other substance misuse in the home—has left many of them feeling deeply worthless and very guilty about themselves. We all know, I think, that when a young person sees a parent desert them, they do not think, “This is a very irresponsible adult”; they think, “What have I done to drive this person away from me?”. The risk is that, by the state coming along and publicising their name in the newspaper as a bad boy, they will think, “Yes, look, even the local newspaper thinks that I am useless, worthless, a bad boy and there is no good in me”. That is one area of concern for me.

The other is that when these young people grow up in a family where there is little love or attention and they are not listened to, sometimes, if they cannot get any fame, at least notoriety—their ability to be notorious—is something that they can chase after. If they will not be listened to in their home or anywhere else or given attention in school, at least if they cause a lot of aggravation they can see their photograph in the local newspaper. There are real reasons to be concerned about this. I am very grateful to the right reverend Prelate for tabling the amendment and I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, in Committee, I tabled an amendment on the clause which was an attempt to suggest a compromise before we had even discussed it, because I knew that the Government would be keen to stick to the general approach. That amendment would have meant that the clause applied only to 17 and 18 year-olds.

As the right reverend Prelate said, the existing provisions are not absolute. I have some questions for the Minister arising from them. Given that there is currently discretion to allow reporting that is in the public interest, and given the public policy underlying the Bill, would that not be a strong indicator to the court on how to view the public interest test? Would not reversing it, so that the individual is named unless the court decides otherwise—apart from the consequences for the individual; I entirely take the points that have been made—mean additional process for the courts?

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1567

I suspect that there would have to be a pre-trial application for anonymity. If I am right, how does one ensure anonymity before that or in the listing of the application? The right reverend Prelate made the point that that would overturn the culture—in fact, the practice—of the youth court. It would be much easier for it to be able to continue with its current practice.

The existing provisions contain a lot of detail about lifting restrictions. Conversely, if one has reversed the presumption, what is the trigger for restriction to apply? What would be pointed to in an application to restrict reporting? Another question is whether any stakeholders have argued for the provision that we see in Clause 17.

Finally, what consideration have the Government given to how communications have changed, particularly with Twitter, which spreads information almost faster than a heartbeat and certainly before restrictions could be applied? Ironically, the law brought into effect in 1933 seems more appropriate for the age of speedy communications, where you start with restrictions and then consider whether to lift them. That would work much better for communications 80 years on.

Lord Hope of Craighead (CB): My Lords, I add just a word based on my experience of how these things are dealt with in the courts. The advantage of the present rule is that a uniform rule applies throughout the country and avoids the problem, which is commonplace in the courts, of different practices in different areas and different judges taking different views. The uniformity of the rule is one advantage.

The second point, which the noble Baroness just mentioned, is that it is essential, if a reporting restriction is to be effective, that it be asked for at the beginning. There is always a risk that somebody nips out of the court before the order is made and the damage is then done but the individual can say, “I wasn’t there when the order was made”. To be effective, it has to be made at the start.

The third point is representation. I do not want to go into the issues about legal aid, which are not a matter for this debate, but there would be concern that people who are not very experienced and not attuned to all the matters raised by the right reverend Prelate fail to take the point. My impression is that if the point is taken as eloquently as the right reverend Prelate made it, the court would be very slow not to make an order unless there were compelling reasons for refusing the application, but it requires an application to be made, because I suspect that a court will not take the initiative without that.

Those are advantages of the present rule which would be lost. Obviously there is a balance to be struck, but I would be interested to know to what extent study has been made of the effect of losing those advantages, if the Bill is to remain in its present form.

Lord Rosser: My Lords, I will be brief. The Minister has been asked a number of relevant questions and I am sure that noble Lords will be waiting to hear the responses. In particular, do the Government anticipate that their proposal, with provision for suspending Section 49 of the 1933 Act, is likely to lead to a

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1568

significant increase in the number of children being named as a result of that suspension of Section 49? Or do they take the view that it will lead to very little increase at all because they think that courts will regularly make decisions—an active choice—not to name the child in question? The question has already been asked about the Government’s intentions, not in respect of numbers or an exact figure, but whether they are looking for a significant increase in the number of children named. Is that the purpose of this? Or is their view that even though they are making the change, it may not make a great deal of difference because the courts are more likely to look at this matter and make the active choice not to name the child in question?

The answer may be that it is already covered in the draft guidance. I have not looked at the guidance to see if it is. However, if it is not already in the guidance, is it the intention that the guidance which will be issued to professionals will say anything about making applications to courts for children not to be named where professionals are directly involved? If it is not in the guidance is it the intention that it should be put in that guidance, and what in fact would it say?

I will leave it at that; the concerns have been expressed about this. Obviously there are already circumstances where children can be named as far as legislation is concerned, and I do not want to pretend that that is not the case. Clearly the Government were expecting that numbers of IPNAs would be issued and, therefore, that that might have an effect on the numbers of children being named. Whether that would still be the case in light of the amendment that has now been carried will remain to be seen. Nevertheless IPNAs will still be around, and that may lead to an increase in the numbers of children being named. It would be helpful to know the Government’s stance. Is that what they are looking for—or do they not see it making a great deal of difference? Will they be giving advice to anybody? I know that they cannot give advice to the courts, but will they give advice to professionals who might be appearing in court in order to make sure that courts are reminded at the very least that they do have this power to make the decision that children should not be named?

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, this again has been a good debate on an important issue. Though it is a small part, it is an important part of these provisions. I thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds for presenting these amendments for our discussion.

As the House will know, the Government do indeed believe that there is a need for reporting restrictions in respect of under-18s in certain cases, where it is both necessary and proportionate to allow for effective enforcement of an injunction or criminal behaviour order. This will enable communities to play their part in ensuring that the injunction and criminal behaviour order are effective in tackling anti-social behaviour by alerting the police if the respondent or offender breaches their conditions. Publicising the injunction and the order in certain cases will provide reassurance and increase public confidence in agencies’ willingness and in their ability to take action against perpetrators of anti-social behaviour. Potential perpetrators will be

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1569

deterred from committing anti-social behaviour due to reporting. So while I understand the sentiment behind these amendments, I believe that there is a strong case for maintaining the default position under Clauses 17, 22 and 29. This mirrors the current position for anti-social behaviour orders.

7.45 pm

However, all these legitimate aims must be weighed against the effect on the young person of making it known to their community that they have been subject to a formal court order, albeit a civil one. That is why, as we clarified in Committee, Section 39 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 gives the court the discretion to prohibit publication of the injunction or order. The courts are very well used to making such sensitive decisions, having been dealing with such cases since the reporting arrangements for ASBOs were changed by the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005. The consultation with the local youth offending team will play an important role here. In this and other respects, the Bill has made changes that enhance safeguards in respect of the rights of young people, ensuring that they are always properly considered. The Bill provides that the youth offending team must be consulted before an application may be made for an injunction or a criminal behaviour order. The team will give valuable insight into the effect reporting would have on a young person, and allow more carefully informed decision-making by the applicants and courts on this issue.

I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, for his contribution to this debate. We are retaining the position as it applies to ASBOs as introduced by the previous Government. We would not expect any change of practice or frequency, as the relevant legislation was passed in 2005. We are not looking for any increase or decrease in the incidence of reporting. This is a matter for practitioners on the one hand and for the courts on the other. Perhaps I can reinforce the role of the youth courts. It is worth pointing out that once these powers are in place all applications for injunctions will be heard in the youth courts, which is not currently the situation for ASBOs. The youth courts are best placed for making such decisions and so this will ensure that the right outcomes on reporting, for the offender and the community, are achieved.

On this last point, during its pre-legislative scrutiny the Home Affairs Select Committee said,

“we are happy to leave the decision not to name a young person to the discretion of the judge”.

We agree that this is appropriately a matter of judicial discretion. I hope my noble friend Lady Hamwee also accepts that point. There is a wealth of case law on this issue which has upheld the legislation that allows for the publicising of ASBOs made against under-18s. The case law makes it clear that the reporting is sometimes necessary and gives guidance on the factors that should be considered. It demonstrates that the discretion given to courts can be exercised reasonably, proportionately and in a way which respects a young person’s human rights. I can help the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, on this. Our draft guidance makes clear that local agencies must consider that it is necessary

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1570

and proportionate to interfere with the young person’s right to privacy, and take account of whether it is likely to affect a young person’s behaviour, with each case decided carefully on its own facts. There is a paragraph in the draft guidance on page 26. I do not propose to read it out but I hope that noble Lords will study it and find it satisfactory.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Ripon and Leeds asked whether we would give guidance to the courts. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said that of course the Government will not give guidance to the courts. I am sure that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, would be happy that the Government are not seeking to give guidance to the courts. However we can and will give guidance to the police, to councils and to other practitioners on this issue. It is for the senior judiciary to give guidance to magistrates in the youth courts. However, I undertake to draw the attention of the Lord Chief Justice to this debate and to the concerns that have been raised in it by noble Lords. I will also work with the Judicial College on training for magistrates.

I will not go through the relationship of this debate with debates on ASBOs but I remind noble Lords that we must take into account the impact of lifting reporting restrictions on the young person. The youth court is well qualified to do that but we need to balance it against the needs of victims and the communities in which they live. For this reason, I am confident that the reporting of under-18s will be carefully considered, with all relevant factors weighed in deciding whether it is necessary to publicise an order against a young person. I therefore hope that the right reverend Prelate will feel reassured by the comments that I have been able to make and withdraw his amendment.

The Lord Bishop of Ripon and Leeds: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that response and I am at least partially reassured by what he has said, particularly in the promises to discuss with the judiciary and bring this debate to their attention, as well as emphasising the guidance to the professionals involved in such cases. I am grateful to those noble Lords who have spoken in the debate and I emphasise again the point made by the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, on just how damaged the children involved in these cases can be. They often feel deeply worthless.

Whether we are here as legislators or in the actual practice of the courts there is a need for us all to be aware, yes, of the needs of the community, which are very much at the fore of the discussion of IPNAs, but also of the needs of the child and the effect that will have on the community. If those needs of the child are not met then the damage to the community in the future can be much greater. However, I am at least partially reassured and so beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 18 withdrawn.

Clause 18: Rules of court

Amendment 19

Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach

19: Clause 18, page 9, line 36, at end insert—

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1571

“(1A) Rules of court may provide for a youth court to give permission for an application for an injunction under section 1 against a person aged 18 or over to be made to the youth court if—

(a) an application to the youth court has been made, or is to be made, for an injunction under that section against a person aged under 18, and

(b) the youth court thinks that it would be in the interests of justice for the applications to be heard together.”

Amendment 19 agreed.

Consideration on Report adjourned until not before 8.52 pm.

Commonwealth Games 2014

Question for Short Debate

7.53 pm

Asked by Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure the success of the 2014 Commonwealth Games in Glasgow.

Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab): My Lords, I thank the House for this opportunity to raise the important events which will take place in Glasgow this year on the occasion of the 20th Commonwealth Games. I look forward to hearing the response from the Government by the Minister after our short debate this evening. I welcome those who have chosen to speak here tonight, and in particular I welcome the maiden speech from my noble friend Lord Haughey, who I am sure will be a welcome addition not only to this debate tonight, as a Glasgow boy, but in the debates that we will have in this House for many years to come.

I recall vividly a breakfast meeting on 29 July 2002, after a few glorious days in Manchester supporting Team Scotland at the Commonwealth Games. It was in the immediate aftermath of Sir Chris Hoy’s first gold medal the night before at the velodrome, when Louise Martin from Commonwealth Games Scotland and I shook hands, having looked each other in the eye and felt, “Yes, we could do this too”. We felt that not just Manchester but Glasgow was capable of hosting the Commonwealth Games and, 12 years on, it will be an immense pleasure to see the Games come to Scotland. In those 12 years there have been many moments, both when in office and after leaving it. I recall the bid presentations in Melbourne during the Games there in March 2006, when the Nigerian bid for Abuja claimed that it was a little bit of Scotland in Africa and therefore we should stand aside for them. There was also the elation when, from Sri Lanka in late 2007, it was announced that Scotland and Glasgow had achieved this success.

In July this year we will see 70 teams with 4,500 sports men and women coming to Glasgow for 12 days of high-level sporting activity and competition across 13 venues and 17 sports. It will include a record five para sports where disabled competitors will take part in the main event at a higher level than ever before. That has been recognised as potentially the best ever representation in Commonwealth Games history for that important aspect of these multisport games.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1572

The preparations are well under way. Today the Queen’s baton relay is in Cameroon. Ninety-two per cent of the tickets have been sold. The venues are not only all ready but are all in use by the public, which is perhaps unique for a multisport Games of this sort internationally. The venues are already being used in a way that will ensure the legacy for the future. The Clyde-siders, who are the Games volunteers, had 50,000 applications resulting in 15,000 successful volunteers being chosen. They are currently being notified and are to welcome the thousands and thousands of visitors to Glasgow and look after the competitors during these 12 days in July and August. There is a cultural programme which will include the first ever music biennial, with newly commissioned works that will ensure that the city is promoted not only across Scotland and the UK but worldwide as a centre for cultural excellence, in addition to sporting excellence.

This has been a tremendous all-party effort, supported initially when my Sports Minister, Patricia Ferguson MSP, was leading the bid in the early days through to the now Scottish Government’s Sports Minister, Shona Robison, who has seen through the implementation of the preparations. This is at all levels of Scottish government—the city council, which is clearly in the lead in all this, has played a key role—and in successive Administrations. Of course, there has been advice, assistance and support all along from London 2012.

Today, in relation to the engagement of the UK Government, I hope that the Minister will specifically address in his summing-up a few important issues where the co-operation of the UK Government is important for the efficiency and success of the Games. For example, on visas for athletes and their team supporters, is the Home Office ready to ensure that that demand can be met? In relation to security and protocol, will the appropriate co-operation be in place to ensure that the Games run smoothly? Will UKTI and other UK bodies support investment conferences in attempts to ensure that the Games can maximise business interest in Scotland? Crucially perhaps, after the last few weeks, will the UK weather forecasting authorities keep everybody very well informed?

We had three key objectives when we launched the bid a decade ago. One was to showcase Glasgow and Scotland to the world as a venue for international sporting events. The second was to ensure that there was a lasting legacy in the city and beyond, both economically and socially—and, crucially for Scotland’s and Glasgow’s health, on a sporting basis. The third was to provide a platform on which Scottish and other athletes could perform to the highest level. As I have said, the venues are all in place. They include some outstanding new venues that have already been used for international competitive events. Those venues and the events themselves have been recognised with Glasgow’s ranking in recent weeks as the ninth best venue in the world for international sporting events. We can safely say that the Commonwealth Games this year will not be the last international sporting event to be held in Glasgow. The city has done a tremendous job, efficiently making sure these venues are ready and that they are of the highest possible international standard.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1573

There is an important economic legacy for the east end of Glasgow and the regeneration of that part of the city. There is an economic legacy in terms of apprenticeships and a graduate training programme as well. There will be an economic legacy in the promotion of Scotland as a destination for tourists and for business. There is also a crucial sporting legacy. Since the bid was secured, sporting participation in the city has risen by 40%, using these new venues and the fresh interest there has been. The potential for a sporting and health-related legacy is clearly there and I am sure the city and the Scottish Government will be focused on that in the months and years following the Games. There is an important role for UNICEF, which has been chosen as the major charity partner of the Games. It will be raising funds before and during the Games to spend on sport and realising the potential of young people, not just in Scotland but critically across every country of the Commonwealth, supporting projects that ensure that sport changes lives in the way that we know it can.

In relation to performance, these stadia are going to be fantastic venues to see some incredible performances. The new Emirates stadium includes not just a marvellous velodrome named after Sir Chris Hoy but a fantastic arena which will be used for other indoor sports as well. The aquatic centre at Tollcross is world-class and recently hosted a contest between the USA and Europe in swimming that was so competitive it went to a swim-off. That is the first time I have ever heard of a swim-off at an international swimming competition. It was so competitive and energetic that it resulted in such an exciting conclusion. The most recent venue to open is a new hockey centre, which I hope will generate an interest in hockey among another generation of young Scots, not just for the Games but far beyond.

My final point is that sport has the almost unique potential to unite people in all kinds of different circumstances and to give people the ambition and inspiration to realise their potential. It is really important that in Scotland and Glasgow in July and August we use these Games to their fullest potential to unite not just people there on the spot but a generation in having ambitions for a better future. From the very beginning these Games—the bid, the operation, the organisation, the preparation and now their actual execution—have been conducted on an all-party basis in Scotland at all levels of government. Therefore, it is critical at a time when Scotland faces a huge choice in September about its future that, for that two-week period in July and August, the two contesting points of view in Scotland for a yes or no vote in a referendum due to take place seven weeks later set aside their differences, call a truce, put an end to public campaigning and do not exploit the Games but instead put Glasgow and Scotland first, join together and make sure that these are the best Commonwealth Games ever.

8.03 pm

Lord Moynihan (Con): My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, on securing this appropriately popular debate and on giving an insightful assessment of the preparation for the Games and the important role government can play in ensuring the success of the Games. He is right; the 20th Commonwealth

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1574

Games in Glasgow will be a powerful and genuine celebration of world-class sport and culture. Their success will be in no small part the result of the work of three people who deserve recognition and praise for their dedication, professionalism and all-party approach, as he mentioned, to the preparation of the Games. Shona Robison has been a superb champion for the Games and for sport in Scotland. The indefatigable Louise Martin has brought a lifetime of experience and expertise to play in preparing for the Games, and Gordon Matheson, leader of Glasgow City Council, deserves full recognition for understanding how the Games can boost the interests of the city of Glasgow and how sport can be a catalyst for regeneration, enhanced reputation and enthusiasm.

My appeal to the Government in their support for the Games is threefold. First, please will the Government reflect the will of the athletes in the political fora surrounding the Commonwealth Games? Politics and sport are increasingly interdependent. The athletes want visas swiftly and a safe, secure and successful Games. They also look to Government to urge all members of the Commonwealth to meet and practise the aspiration set out in Commonwealth Games Federation Article 7, which reads:

“There shall be no discrimination against any country or person on any grounds whatsoever, including race, colour, gender, religion or politics”.

We are a member of the Commonwealth, where 40 of the 53 member nations—over 70%—have some laws or regulations on their statute books persecuting same-sex relationships. That is unacceptable.

Secondly, I hope the Government can confirm that they have by now learnt one of the more painful lessons from the post-London 2012 experience—namely, the need to invest far more than before into ensuring that we translate the inspiration of the Games into opportunities for participation and that we raise the bar to unprecedented new heights for the young people of tomorrow, particularly in all our schools. That means that work needs to be done now to ensure that local authorities are ready to do more in the provision of access to sports facilities, and that governing bodies are assisted by Government to work through their clubs not just to welcome new members but to have in place the trained coaches, volunteers and equipment necessary to capture the interest of every single individual who will be inspired to take up sport and physical recreation. The capacity and capability to respond with a sports and health legacy for all concerned should be audited now.

Finally, key to the success of this decade of international sporting events is the work of the volunteers. Volunteer Development Scotland and Volunteering in Sport 2011-2015 are excellent initiatives. I hope the Government will work to put in place additional policies to ensure that the 15,000 volunteers—the Clyde-siders—are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to capturing the enthusiasm of all volunteers to work in community sport after the Games are over. We need a raft of new policies backed by investment to increase participation at all levels, both in Scotland and throughout the United Kingdom. The Commonwealth Games gives us a chance to deliver on that agenda.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1575

8.07 pm

Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, for bringing forward this debate. It is fitting that the Commonwealth Games are in this great cycle of sporting events that we have had. The run of events that we have experienced over the past few years, and are going to experience, started with the Manchester Commonwealth Games where we British proved to ourselves, much to our surprise, that we could do it. My mother’s home town is a very fitting place to make sure there is investment in the people and the structure behind a successful festival of sport, which is what the Games are, unlike a championship, no matter how glorious. Games are where you bring everything together. The most wonderful thing about sport is the fact that it brings people together on common ground where they have common interests and communication. No other subject can do that.

Games present a greater opportunity than even bigger sporting championships. Thus we must cash in on this to invest in our future. I agree with my noble friend Lord Moynihan about the fact that we have to invest in people at grassroots level. We are on depressingly familiar territory here because we usually agree on this. London 2012’s great legacy is the idea. We were never going to get it right first time. Glasgow gives us the opportunity to build on that—not just for Britain but internationally since the Olympics and the Commonwealth Games are the two great international movements—to learn about how to create enthusiasm and to take it into other sports. The Rugby League World Cup has worked on this and the Rugby Union World Cup will, I hope, go on and do more with it. But this is the great legacy that will come from the Games. I am glad that emphasis has been put on participation and involvement. I hope that we will build successfully on the information and practice that have gone before. That is the true legacy of this. Buildings are great but ideas can last for ever.

8.09 pm

Baroness Grey-Thompson (CB): My Lords, I should like to declare an interest in that I sit on the Spirit of 2012 trust, I do some work with SSE which is a Games sponsor, and I am also an ambassador for UNICEF. I am very much looking forward to the Commonwealth Games this summer. The reality is that the vast majority of the work needed to deliver successful Games will already have been done. I have every confidence in the Games time being a great success.

Many experiences of 2012 will have been passed on to Glasgow, which has an experienced team. The House also benefits greatly from having the expertise of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, who did a superb job at LOCOG and has first-hand experience of Games delivery. This is my first opportunity formally to welcome him to your Lordships’ Chamber.

The Commonwealth Games are different. There is a reason why they are called the friendly Games. I competed for Wales at three of them and have many happy memories. I am delighted that the Commonwealth Games have led the way in terms of the inclusion of disabled athletes in such a positive way. While in the past there were wheelchair racing demonstration events

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1576

at Olympics and major athletics events, such as world and European championships, the Commonwealth Games have embraced disability sport with full medal status events.

It is easy to forget that it has not always been that way. In the Commonwealth Games in Auckland in 1990, 1500 metres and 800 metres wheelchair races were included in the programme, but the teams were not allowed to stay with the mainstream teams or to have any kit. I remember that my fellow Welsh athlete Chris Hallam, who sadly passed away last year, and I had to share a single vest. Luckily, my event was first. In 1994, in Victoria, Canada, we were very nearly part of the team. There was a little bit more inclusion, and thanks to the largely negative comments of the Australian chef de mission, who suggested that disabled athletes should not be there, there was suddenly a turnaround in people’s opinions. That set the path forward for Manchester, which, as the noble Lord, Lord Addington, said, also had a massive effect on the London Games.

While I do not wish to see an integrated Olympics and Paralympics, I think there is much greater possibility within individual sports at international level for the integration of disabled people. The Commonwealth Games prove very clearly that it can be done. In future, I would love to see integrated world championships and European championships. People go to watch the sport, not necessarily to watch disabled or non-disabled people.

Now that the excitement of 2012 is behind us and Glasgow is very nearly upon us, I urge the Government not to forget the importance of elite sport. We clearly see the decline of Australians in Olympic sport—but sadly not in cricket—since they thought that with the major games out of the way they no longer needed to support sport at this level. Nobody wants that to happen in the UK.

The legacy of these Games is not just about participation or stadia, although they are important. It is a massive opportunity for young athletes. For me, it bookended my career. It gave me a step up, and it gave me the way out at the end. We have a huge opportunity to look at how we use those athletes at a local level. With the size and scale of the home country teams, I am really looking forward to seeing what plans they have to keep the momentum of participation going as well as giving the governing bodies another chance to see what they can do for coaching and volunteering. Some really embraced 2012, and some sadly missed the boat completely. They have a second chance to do better. I am also looking forward to what can be done to improve accessible tourism and transport and it gives us another chance to look at PE in schools, which I do not believe we have quite right at the moment.

Finally, I wish the Glasgow Commonwealth Games much success. It will be a great event.

8.12 pm

Lord Haughey (Lab): My Lords, it is with a feeling of great honour and humility that I stand before the House to deliver my maiden speech. First, I would like to thank my noble friend Lord McConnell for securing this debate that will allow me to talk on a subject that

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1577

is very dear to my heart. Before I broach the subject matter, I would like to say thank you to Black Rod and his staff who have been nothing but supportive when I have been lost in the building. I thank the doorkeepers who have been great and supportive and the catering staff who looked after my family famously when we were here on the day of my introduction. I would also like to say a thank you to my mentor, my noble friend Lord Browne, and a very special thank you to my sponsors, the noble Lord, Lord Martin, and my noble friend Lord McAvoy. I also express my appreciation for the extent and depth of welcome that I have received from noble Lords on all sides of the House.

For my part, I would like to talk about the legacy of the Commonwealth Games. As I drive through Glasgow, I see many infrastructure projects that are in full flow on both the stadia and the housing requirements, and I am heartened by the amount of construction jobs that have already been created and, more importantly, the ones that will be sustained going forward. When all the medals have been distributed and the Games have come to a conclusion, Glasgow will be left with world-class sporting infrastructure that I hope will help young budding athletes to achieve their dreams and goals. It is vitally important that we utilise these facilities to the maximum for many years to come. The way the athletes’ village, consisting of 700 houses, will be converted to affordable housing is a master stroke by Glasgow City Council. It is something the east end of Glasgow was crying out for. It will also play a major part in the overall regeneration of the area.

Securing the Games for Glasgow gave us a great opportunity to tackle youth unemployment. Two of the legacy initiatives that went a long way to achieving this are the Commonwealth graduate fund and the Commonwealth apprenticeship initiative. The graduate fund is designed to encourage employers to create new graduate-level jobs in and around Glasgow. It targets the recruitment of unemployed graduates by offering financial incentives to employers to take on a new employee. The fund is worth £l0 million and is providing funding opportunities for 1,000 graduate jobs in the city. The apprenticeship initiative was created by Glasgow City Council as a way to assist suitably qualified Glasgow school leavers into apprenticeships by offering financial incentives to businesses in return for new vacancies. The success of this initiative will not only benefit Glasgow school leavers but will help business growth in the city as well. Over 2,500 apprenticeships have already been created, which is remarkable. As a result of the success of this initiative, the leader of Glasgow City Council, Gordon Matheson, has committed to the continuation of this initiative to the end of the current administration in 2017, which is a great boost for some of Glasgow’s young people at a time when it is most needed.

As someone who employs 170 apprentices and is committed to helping to create opportunities for the young people of today, I applaud these efforts by the council in creating a lasting legacy from the Games. For the unemployed who are part of the 15,000 volunteers, I hope that the experience they gain through working at the Games will give them confidence and enable them to find employment thereafter.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1578

I am sure that the great people of Glasgow will deliver a memorable occasion that will be well received throughout the world and one that we can be truly proud of. This will be equalled only by the legacy that will be enjoyed by thousands of Glaswegians for many decades thereafter.

As noble Lords have probably already heard, people from Glasgow tend to talk a bit faster, so all week I have practising making my speech last a bit longer. I got my six-minute speech off to a tee, and I had a wry smile when I arrived tonight and was told I had three minutes and should make it snappy. I shall finish as I started. I feel truly privileged and honoured to be part of this wonderful establishment. I hope that my experiences in business and life will help me add further value to this noble House.

8.17 pm

Baroness Prashar (CB): My Lords, it is huge privilege to follow the very thoughtful maiden speech of the noble Lord, Lord Haughey. He is a fine example of what apprenticeships can do. We can see that not only has he benefited from an apprenticeship, but he is benefitting others. I share his affection and passion for Scotland because I was a post-graduate student in Glasgow and did my placement in Gorbals. My experience of Gorbals reinforces for me how awe-inspiring the noble Lord’s achievements are. From very humble beginnings as a Gorbals boy, through an apprenticeship he has set up a global business that is now the largest employer in Scotland. He is truly a Gorbals boy made good, not just a Glasgow boy made good. His commitment to giving back to society is equally impressive. Through his City Charitable Trust he supports local and global initiatives, sports, particularly football, and entrepreneurs and he acts as a role model by visiting schools. The commitment of the noble Lord, Lord Haughey, to social justice and zero youth unemployment and his real-life experience and commitment to giving will be a great inspiration to this House and we all look forward to his further thoughtful contributions. I thank him for a wonderful maiden speech.

It is clear that a great deal of effort is being devoted to ensure the success of the Commonwealth Games, and they will be successful. Crucially, these Games also provide opportunities above and beyond the hosting of a major event. They offer the potential to inspire cultural engagement, creativity and learning. This is an opportunity to promote intercultural relations, global citizenship and the values of the Commonwealth as enshrined in the Commonwealth charter, and also to deepen connections between the people of the Commonwealth. Intercultural and interdisciplinary learning, and the international links they will foster, will be important in developing understanding and trust among the nations of the Commonwealth, which in the long run will help with the prosperity agenda. Glasgow has a rich cultural tradition, and the Commonwealth Games are an opportunity to add another chapter to the city's cultural story and further enrich its cultural and educational credentials through intercultural experience.

As deputy chairman of the British Council, I am delighted that the British Council, in association with others, will be using education and the arts to make

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1579

such connections between Scotland, the wider UK and the Commonwealth, through projects such as Commonwealth Class, and a rich and diverse cultural programme, which will provide a platform for voices from across the Commonwealth to be heard through music, dance, visual arts and the written word.

It is important that such activities are seen not just as a sideshow but as an integral part of these friendly Games. They will lead to long-term connections between the citizens of the Commonwealth and help to promote the values of the Commonwealth for the common good. After all, the Commonwealth is the Commonwealth of the people, not just an intergovernmental organisation. Its strength is its people, and these Games are an opportunity to showcase that, particularly after the controversial CHOGM held in Sri Lanka. It will be helpful if the Minister can assure the House that these educational and cultural activities will be both highlighted and supported in the long run.

8.21 pm

Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con): My Lords, the Commonwealth Games are unique, with a personality of their own, and will be truly sensational in Glasgow this summer. They are not the Olympic Games or the Paralympic Games, but they have the potential to ignite that same spirit that we all felt so keenly in the summer of 2012. I know this from my own experience. When my swimming career was coming to an end, I realised that I had the opportunity to do my final swim at the Manchester 2002 Commonwealth Games trials—finishing not so much on home soil as in Mancunian waters.

I am delighted that Glasgow is following the tradition of holding events for disabled athletes; indeed, there will be the most events ever for disabled athletes at a Commonwealth Games. Post-Glasgow, we will all need to look at how we can develop this element further to make it even more meaningful and impactful. I am also interested in the whole idea of soft power, and the impact that the Games can have in that respect. Will the Minister comment on what is happening, particularly with his colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, to ensure that we have the largest number of high-level Ministers and Heads of State at the opening ceremony and throughout the Games this summer?

Glasgow will get it right if it puts athletes at the centre of the Games, if it has sport at its heart, and if it builds an extraordinary, exceptional experience for athletes, spectators, the Commonwealth family and the media. Thousands of people are already working to this end, and they are in the final straight of their preparation. Hats off to Louise Martin, who has already been mentioned. Hats off, too, to Mike Hooper and his team at the Commonwealth Games Federation, whose expert eyes have been all over this project from the outset.

We should also look further than Glasgow, because it is not beyond the realms of possibility that we could think about another home nation bid for a future Commonwealth Games in the not-too-distant future—perhaps in Wales, perhaps in London, but certainly another event that could extend further that decade of fantastic sport throughout the UK. Glasgow 2014 has

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1580

the potential to be sensational, to light up this summer with the golden hue of sporting success and to leave a sporting, social and economic legacy. It has such potential for Glasgow and for Scotland. It will be great for Britain and great for the Commonwealth.

8.24 pm

Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD): My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, on securing this debate. Before I go further, I also congratulate a fellow new boy in your Lordships’ House, the noble Lord, Lord Haughey, on his maiden speech—a snappy but sincere speech about the benefit for young people in his native city. When the eyes of the world are on Glasgow and Scotland, they will see the friendly Games in the friendly city, which will afford the athletes the best platform to strive their hardest in their given sport.

In what both the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, and the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, said, we saw politics and sport mixing. However, as the wise counsel of the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, indicated when he talked about the caution that we should exercise, politicking and sport do not mix. The noble Lord’s warning about the constitutional and political debates that will be taking place in Scotland at the same time as the Commonwealth Games should be heeded.

For completely understandable reasons, major events such as the Commonwealth Games are hosted by cities. However, in view of the level of funding that goes into them, I hope that your Lordships will allow me to make one comment about the areas and sports that are not from the cities. That includes a sport—rugby sevens—that originated in the constituency that I formerly represented in the Scottish Parliament. Rugby sevens is one example of how the Commonwealth Games can show, in a microcosm, the benefits that sport can bring. It will now be featuring in its fifth Games, and I hope that friends from New Zealand will not be too disappointed when I say that I hope that they will not win the gold medal, because they have won it for every Games that they have participated in so far. The sport originated in 1883 in the Greenyards in Melrose; it will now be in Glasgow, and then an Olympic sport for the first time in Rio in 2016. With the World Cup sevens coming soon in 2018, we can see the best example of an amateur sport, with a community basis and a strong heart, also having a global profile.

As the purpose of this debate is to ask the UK Government to do what they can, I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Holmes, about using all the might and all the persuasive powers of the United Kingdom Government to promote this sport as one element of the Commonwealth family—the family of sports in the widest sense.

Last week I was in Taiwan, and I flew from Hong Kong, where the Hong Kong sevens is now possibly the biggest sport in the area. It is sponsored by Cathay Pacific. Then, coming back to London, when you are on the Heathrow Express you see that that sponsors the English rugby sevens team. This is a local sport with a massive heart, and with, we hope, a global following to come. It is one of the examples of the sort of sport for which Glasgow will afford one of the best windows that we can secure.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1581

8.28 pm

Lord Taylor of Warwick (Non-Afl): May I add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, for securing this timely debate? I also congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Haughey, on his excellent maiden speech. He is a man of great achievements, who will clearly add much value to this House.

As noble Lords have said, there is no doubt that the Commonwealth Games is a fantastic sporting event, but it is much more than that; it is about the wider Commonwealth family. It was sport that first brought my father to Britain in the late 1940s after serving in the British Army in the Second World War. As a Jamaican, he was a member of the Commonwealth, and in coming to England he did not see himself as travelling to foreign parts. As far he was concerned, he was coming to another part of the extended Commonwealth family. He was coming home, in effect. Even the fact that it snowed on his first day as a professional cricketer for Warwickshire did not diminish his feeling of belonging to that family. But he did remark that he thought he had signed for Warwickshire as a professional off-spin bowler, not as a professional snowball thrower.

The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, made a point about cricket, and I note that cricket has been included in the Commonwealth Games only once, in 1998 in Malaysia. I was going to suggest that one way of securing the success of the Glasgow Commonwealth Games would be to bring in cricket, even at this late stage. However, given the current state of the England cricket team, perhaps we need another four years to reflect on that idea.

The Glasgow Games will be another opportunity to promote para-sporting events. One of the most exciting developments in sport over the past few years has been the recognition of Paralympic athletes as stars in their own right. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, and the noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, have played a huge role in that success.

The Glasgow Commonwealth Games chief executive has wisely ensured dialogue with LOCOG 2012, so that lessons learned from the London Olympics can benefit the Glasgow Games. In particular, there is an awareness that the ticketing system must be efficient and the cost of tickets affordable for most people. As he has said:

“It’s your Games. Filling the stadia has been one of our key principles”.

As the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, said, the fact that 50,000 people from all over the United Kingdom have applied for 15,000 volunteer roles shows the level of interest.

This event is a great one for sport, but it is bigger than that; it is about the wider Commonwealth family. It is a window to the benefits of that family—and that is a gold medal message.

8.31 pm

Baroness Seccombe (Con): My Lords, I add my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, on giving us this joyous subject to debate. On a really lovely summer day in 2012, I was fortunate to have a ticket for the stadium for both the Olympic Games and the Paralympic Games. I was with my family, all of us

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1582

wearing the obligatory GB T-shirt and equipped with the union flag, and so on. As we boarded the Tube, it was such fun to see other families similarly attired and excited in anticipation of what was to come. After all, we knew it was unlikely that any of us would ever see such a glorious event in our lifetime again.

The welcome we received from the Games-makers was exceptional and certainly made a huge contribution to the excellent organisation. They also created a great atmosphere of fun and enjoyment. Our seats for the Olympics were in row 57, which was quite a climb, particularly when once I went up the wrong staircase. In contrast, at the Paralympic Games, row 20 was a fantastic change, from which we watched the wonderful achievements of the Paralympians. Both days made me very proud to be British, and I am sure that the support given to our athletes lifted their magnificent performance. They gave us a superb and humbling experience, and one I shall never forget.

The Government’s role was imperative throughout, and the organisation and attention to detail was of the highest standard. I am sure that lessons were learnt which must be of assistance to the Scottish organising committee as it makes the final push to fine-tune its plans and to enthuse the public. I am sure that it will be the greatest success, so I can only encourage everyone to enjoy this most important sporting association.

This year, I am off on what I hope will be an equally balmy summer’s day to the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow. I am geared up to be suitably attired and ready to roar our home teams on as they battle to win. Whatever the results, I know that we will have had another very special day, when probably some will indulge in a wee dram.

8.34 pm

Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord McConnell for securing this debate and, in particular, for not being in any sense modest about the way in which the Games came about, and the distinguished role that he played in that. It would not have happened without his foresight and his thinking about it, and that it has happened has been because, as with our experience of the Olympic and Paralympic Games, these things work only if they are done on an all-party basis. My noble friend exemplifies how that can happen.

I played a very minor part in the Paralympic Games, as I was involved in distributing the flowers as part of the medal ceremonies. A flower girl I was, and I enjoyed it very much; it was one of the highlights of my summer in 2012. Through that, I met Shona Robison, and was impressed, as has been said already in this debate, by the care and concern expressed and her acknowledgement of the need to work together across parties towards this event. I am sure that it will be successful.

I thank all speakers for the wide-ranging contributions, which will help us to focus on some of the important issues. In particular, my noble friend Lord Haughey made a very good point in his snappy maiden speech that a lot of these things are very local. The great value that comes from these huge projects is that they can and do invigorate across all sectors of the host city and

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1583

town, with the apprenticeships and the work involved on graduate schemes, and will have a lasting legacy around that.

The Question asked the Minister to respond as to what steps Her Majesty's Government were taking to ensure the success of the Games. However, as has been pointed out, there are very limited direct steps that the Government can take, since this is not a reserved issue. Indeed, if noble Lords read the reports from the organising committee, the Games preparations are going extremely well, so I do not think that there will be much to say on that. But the wider context that has been raised in this debate by many speakers is that we need to think again about how we do big projects in the UK and the values that come from that. The investment is not just in the Games itself but in the enthusiasm that it generates, and the focus on the sport —and how good it is that my sport, squash, is being played in Glasgow, although it does not yet appear in the Olympic Games. All that makes for a much better country, with a much better engagement of people in the activities that make us the nation that we are.

When he comes to respond, I hope that the Minister might pick up on some of the legacy issues that have been touched on. I was very struck by what the organising committee said about this when they did a survey which asked people what they wanted the legacy to be. They found that in Scotland—and I would not think it would be different in the UK as a whole—people wanted a successful Games, of course, but they also wanted their children to be more sporty, which is shorthand for them doing more exercise and being involved in sport. They also wanted to ensure that funding for sport in primary schools was continued and that more girls could be enthused to enjoy sport. As we have heard today, that might also be applied to those with disabilities. Although one could expect the Government to say that this is not their responsibility, a lesson which was picked up in the excellent report from one of our own committees, Keeping the Flame Alive: The Olympic and Paralympic Legacy, is that we need to invest more in these activities. I hope the Government will pick this point up and respond to it.

8.37 pm

Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, on securing this debate. I believe that he can take great pride in what he and others embarked upon and are now seeing fulfilled. It has been an excellent debate, and the maiden speech from the noble Lord, Lord Haughey, was, rightly, warmly welcomed across the House. With all his roots in Glasgow, the noble Lord could not have a more appropriate debate to launch what I am sure will be a long and fulfilling career in your Lordships’ House. We all very much welcome the many contributions he is going to make.

It is a privilege and opportunity that the 2014 Commonwealth Games are taking place in Glasgow, in Scotland, in the United Kingdom. The Games are expected to draw around 6,500 athletes and officials, competing in 17 sports in 40 venues—I have increased the number from the one suggested by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell—with a global audience of around

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1584

1.5 billion people. We have the prospect of watching countless great athletes—the likes of Usain Bolt, Laura Trott, David Weir and Jessica Ennis-Hill. My noble friend Lord Purvis of Tweed highlighted the rugby sevens, and I do not think that a sport could not have a more robust champion. The Commonwealth Games are the only major games where the sports programme for elite athletes with a disability is fully integrated with that for non-disabled athletes. As the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, said, this is something that we want to build on in the legacy of Glasgow. I also agree with the points made by my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond on this matter.

As has been said, preparations for the Games, led by the organising committee, are proceeding extremely well, with venues such as the Sir Chris Hoy Velodrome already open and hosting major events. The Government are committed to strengthening our engagement with, and role within, the Commonwealth. A strong Commonwealth is important to the national interests of all its members and can help promote UK objectives of democratic values, good governance and prosperity. The noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, spoke powerfully about the importance of the Commonwealth for cultural engagement, international relations and the effect on its people. My noble friend Lord Moynihan also mentioned the equally important values of democracy and non-discrimination.

With over 2 billion people, the Commonwealth makes up nearly a third of the world’s population, including some of the world’s fastest growing economies. It provides a platform for trade, investment, development and prosperity. Glasgow 2014 provides an exceptional opportunity to build on the experience and legacy of the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games and to promote Glasgow and Scotland worldwide. The Prime Minister has made it clear that the UK Government will do everything they can to ensure the 2014 Commonwealth Games are a success. I know of his visit to the arena, for instance, and his personal commitment.

Working closely with the Scottish Government, Glasgow City Council and the organising committee, the UK Government have a number of reserved responsibilities, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, including managing the border and national security, facilitating entry to the UK of athletes, coaches and support staff from the Commonwealth nations and accrediting them to use the Games venues and managing the more formal international relations with visiting Heads of State and Heads of Government. The contribution of the UK Government is managed through the Cabinet committee system in the normal manner with regular meetings of officials and Ministers. There have been meetings in the past two days while I have been hearing more about these matters. There is no doubt at all that Ministers are fully seized of the importance of their responsibilities to fulfil the reserved matters and to co-operate with those in Scotland.

As has been said, legacy was a key element of the plans for the 2012 Games and the Glasgow Games, from the start of work on the bids. It is striking that the president of the International Olympic Committee, Jacques Rogge, said that London,

“raised the bar on how to deliver a lasting legacy”,

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1585

and created,

“a legacy blueprint for future Games hosts”.

I am in no doubt that Glasgow will be very much in the forefront of legacy.

Noble Lords in their places tonight have played a crucial part in the delivery of the 2012 Games and their legacy. I mention in particular my noble friend Lord Holmes of Richmond, a distinguished multi-gold medal-winning Paralympian who played such a part in delivering the 2012 Games. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, an exalted Paralympian, is now a trustee of the Spirit of 2012 Trust—an independent trust established to keep the 2012 Games’ legacy flame alive. Indeed, my noble friend Lord Moynihan, an Olympic medallist, chaired the British Olympic Association with such distinction. I mention this because we wish that all the experiences and knowledge from those Games are shared with all those concerned in organising such an important Games later this year.

The noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Haughey, mentioned regeneration, apprenticeships, infrastructure and employment. All these matters will make a huge difference to east Glasgow and well beyond. They are part of this economic legacy. UK Trade and Investment has announced that more than £11 billion in trade and investment has been generated from the 2012 Games. The Glasgow Commonwealth Games offer another platform to promote the UK as a partner for business and an investment destination. Her Majesty’s Government, in conjunction with the Scottish Government, will host an inward investment and business conference during the Commonwealth Games. I express particular gratitude to Glasgow City Council for making the city chambers available during the Games.

The economic benefits from the London Olympics and Paralympics have been extremely well spread. In fact, it is estimated that those Games will have created the equivalent of between 51,000 and 62,000 jobs each year between 2004 and 2020. These figures are hugely important, and I am sure that they will be reflected in Glasgow. As regards tourism, VisitBritain is now actively engaged in using the 2014 Games to promote Scotland across the world. The GREAT campaign is also seeking to promote the Commonwealth Games.

The Games makers and other Games-related volunteers were one of the extraordinary aspects of the 2012 Games. My noble friend Lady Seccombe highlighted this. The organisers of the Glasgow Games have been recruiting 15,000 volunteers, known as Clyde-siders. These opportunities were heavily oversubscribed, a testament to the esteem in which the Games makers are, and I am sure the Clyde-siders will be, held. I agree with my noble friend Lord Moynihan about the importance of ensuring that volunteering and fostering the volunteering spirit are enshrined in policy and the way in which we conduct business.

I also want to raise the cultural aspect of the Commonwealth Games. The two strands are a Scotland-wide programme called Culture 2014, and a Games-time celebration running alongside the sporting action called Festival 2014. They will make a very powerful contribution indeed.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1586

A number of points were raised about a truce, including by the noble Lord, Lord McConnell. I have to say that this is very much a matter for the two sides in that debate to decide upon, but my hunch is that most people are going to be rather more interested in the sport and the athletes than in political exchanges.

A number of noble Lords mentioned the Queen’s baton relay. As has been said, it is in Cameroon tonight. British high commissions across the Commonwealth have played an active part in supporting the relay and raising its profile.

In July and August 2014, the Commonwealth family —as my noble friend Lord Taylor of Warwick mentioned; that is absolutely the right reference for this institution—will come together for a festival of sport. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, rightly used the words, “coming together”. It will be a positive celebration of peace and unity. This precedes the first official event to mark this year’s centenary of the start of the First World War, which will take place in Glasgow the day after the end of the Commonwealth Games. It, too, will be a time for the whole nation and our Commonwealth partners to come together and pay tribute to the brave men and women of the Commonwealth who sacrificed so much.

A number of points have been raised, about which I had better write to noble Lords. When future bids are made is a matter for the Commonwealth Games associations of the nations concerned. However, it would be fair to say that if any of the nations were minded to bid, I am sure that it would be very much welcome to the Government. The Games will be in Australia in 2018. There have been five occasions when that country has generously hosted the Games, so let us see.

I conclude by expressing my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, and to your Lordships who have spoken in this debate. There is much that I would wish to reflect on regarding the importance of the sporting legacy and, as the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, said, of ensuring that the next generation of people are playing more sport. I understand that 1.5 million more people are engaged in sports since 2012. We need to build on that, and I am sure that the noble Baroness, Lady Grey- Thompson, will keep us up to the mark on these matters.

I wish the organisers of the Glasgow Games—the friendly Games, as has been said—and the people of Glasgow all the very best for a successful Games. I know that the UK Government will do all that they can within their reserved responsibilities to support the Games and to ensure that they are a great success for Scotland, for the United Kingdom and for the Commonwealth.

8.50 pm

Sitting suspended.

Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill

Report (1st Day) (Continued)

8.53 pm.

Amendment 20

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)

20: After Clause 18, insert the following new Clause—


8 Jan 2014 : Column 1587

(1) The Secretary of State may issue guidance to persons entitled to apply for injunctions under section 1 (see section 4) about the exercise of their functions under this Part.

(2) The Secretary of State may revise any guidance issued under this section.

(3) The Secretary of State must arrange for any guidance issued or revised under this section to be published.”

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, ahead of Report in the House of Commons, the Government published draft guidance for front-line professionals on the new anti-social behaviour powers. With the exception of those sections dealing with the review of criminal behaviour orders and the community remedy, this was to be non-statutory guidance.

In addition to the draft guidance produced by the Home Office, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs published a draft practitioner’s manual for tackling irresponsible dog ownership. Of course, the content of the draft guidance has been the subject of discussion during our Committee deliberations. On a number of points, noble Lords expressed concern that our expectations of how the power should be used would be in guidance with no statutory basis.

While I believe that the new powers have sufficient safeguards to ensure appropriate and proportionate use, I see merit in making the guidance statutory for all the new anti-social behaviour powers. Our intention is not to be prescriptive; it is essential that professionals and the courts have the flexibility to consider the facts of each case and choose the most appropriate course of action. However, statutory guidance will help them use the new powers more effectively. The amendments in this group will achieve that result and I trust noble Lords will support them. I beg to move.

Lord Greaves (LD): My Lords, I wish to speak on the statutory guidance sections. I have one little amendment, Amendment 57, in this group, and it is fairly clear what it means.

This is the first time that I have spoken at this stage of the Bill, apart from one intervention, so I should declare my interests again in relation to this group and some others that we will come to. They are my membership of a district council in Lancashire as a councillor, my membership of the British Mountaineering Council, of which I am a patron, and my vice-presidency of the Open Spaces Society, and they relate to things that will come up later.

I thank the Ministers—particularly the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, who is not yet in his place—for the way in which they have approached this Bill, for the way in which they have been open to discussion and to holding meetings with the Bill team, and for the large amount of material that they have sent out in letters and so on. Their readiness to look at a lot of the questions raised at Second Reading and in Committee, and to come forward with quite a lot of amendments today—most of the amendments that we are discussing at the moment are government amendments—shows that they have been willing to listen. I have absolutely no doubt that the parts of the Bill in which I am interested—those on anti-social behaviour—are a lot better for that process, so I will put on record my personal thanks to them.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1588

These amendments are all about guidance. As the Minister said, they mean that the guidance that we were told would be issued—we have already seen the draft guidance—and that is now out for consultation with various bodies will become statutory. This is very welcome. A caveat to that is that I would much have preferred the guidance to be statutory instruments and regulations, as those would have had the benefit of having to come before the House of Commons and your Lordships’ House. Nevertheless, it is better that the guidance should be statutory rather than it being left open as to whether or not people will bother to produce guidance. The fact that it is statutory guidance means that there will have to be proper consultation on it, that it will have to be published and everybody will know that, and that the Ministers issuing the guidance will have some accountability to the Houses of Parliament if we want to raise questions as a result of what is in it. That is welcome and it is being welcomed by a number of organisations with which I am in touch.

The guidance referred to in this group of amendments covers a number of different parts of the Bill, including IPNAs—I am interested that we are still calling them IPNAs following the amendment that was agreed this afternoon; I was trying to work out whether they should now be called IPHADs but at the moment they are called IPNAs—criminal behaviour orders, the powers of police community support officers, community protection notices, public space protection orders and the question of the closure of premises, and there may be others. The point that I would have made if I had been able to get in during the debate this afternoon is that the Bill is not really about everything that was discussed this afternoon.

Most of the debate was about free speech, freedom of assembly and the right of people to protest, as by-products of Clause 1. In practice, this Bill is about anti-social behaviour—or at least the majority of it that refers to anti-social behaviour is—and about whether it is successful in tackling anti-social behaviour more effectively than the existing regime based on ASBOs. I am optimistic that it will be more successful, but the guidance that we are discussing is going to be crucial to how it works on the ground. At the moment if you have to make an ASBO, you have failed.

9 pm

If you have to make an IPNA, or criminal behaviour or public spaces protection orders, that is the end of the process. They are backstops to everything else that ought to be happening in the mean time. If the system is to work properly, the problems should be picked up early. A lot of work should go into what my noble friend Lady Hamwee this afternoon referred to as preventing escalation. That requires a lot of work and effort on the ground, and teams of people: perhaps the neighbourhood policing team, or the local council anti-social behaviour team, or people from schools and from the truancy, probation and environmental health services. These people need to work together as teams rather than individually. That is what tackling anti-social behaviour really means if it is to be successful on the ground.

I hope that the guidance will strongly point people in this direction: to take action as early as possible and to take preventive action to work with people rather

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1589

than at the beginning waving these new powers, orders and notices, and using them as last resorts but nevertheless as backstops if necessary. However, resources are a huge problem. Before Second Reading, I had a meeting with two people from the local anti-social behaviour team—a team of three altogether—from my council of Pendle to talk about this Bill and get their views on it. They were optimistic that it would help them.

Given the scale of the spending cuts on the local authorities and the fact that my own authority is having to lose about half its staff over six or seven years, the problem is whether that team will exist in a year’s time. The presence of services and teams like these, which are not statutory but voluntary as far as the council is concerned, is crucial if the statutory provisions in this Bill are to work. I think they would want me to make that point. Having said that, I support the amendments in this group and hope that the Minister will reply to my little amendment.

Lord Rosser (Lab): As has been said, the Home Office has already published draft guidance for front-line professionals. The purpose of these amendments is to refer to it in the Bill, with the conferring of powers on the Secretary of State to issue it. In one of the letters sent to us, the Minister also said that:

“We also undertook in response to yet other amendments to revisit the terms of the draft guidance for frontline professionals”.

That letter set out a list of the areas where they would review the draft guidance.

Is the outcome of that review known or is it still taking place? If it is still taking place, is the intention that we will see the outcome of the review of the draft guidance and know what it is before we get to Third Reading? We have at least had the advantage in the discussions we have had so far of knowing what was in the already published draft guidance and, if it is being looked at again, we ought to have sight of any revisions being made to it before we conclude our discussions on the Bill. That would be extremely helpful. Is it now the Government’s intention to review the draft guidance in the light of the carrying of the amendment earlier today, which must presumably have some impact on the draft guidance that has been issued?

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Greaves for his amendment and his comments. I have scribbled down here that I would convey his thanks to my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach. I have so conveyed them and he has obviously heard them, so there we are.

Turning to Amendment 57, I can assure my noble friend that any guidance produced under the new clause proposed in Amendment 56 will automatically apply to any person or body designated under the new clause proposed in Amendment 53. We will come on to that amendment later in our proceedings but suffice it to say that, by virtue of subsection (2) of the proposed new clause, any designated person or body would be treated as a local authority for the purposes of Chapter 2 of Part 4 as a whole. As such, the guidance produced for local authorities under the terms of Amendment 56 will be applicable to persons

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1590

or bodies designated in accordance with the provisions in Amendment 53. I hope that reassures my noble friend in relation to his amendment.

On the questions raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and taking the second question first on revisions to guidelines in the light of the vote, obviously the vote has happened and we shall look at the outcome. The guidelines will be finalised once the Bill has reached its final stages in Parliament.

As to where we are on the guidance, we are currently working with councils, the police and others. Over the coming months we will discuss the effects of the guidance but any results and further alterations will, unfortunately, not be available before Third Reading. However, the final draft of the guidance will reflect the terms of the Bill as enacted.

With those reassurances to my noble friend, I hope that he will be minded not to move his amendment.

Amendment 20 agreed.

Clause 19: Interpretation etc

Amendment 21

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

21: Clause 19, page 10, leave out line 4

Amendment 21 agreed.

Clause 21: Power to make orders

Amendment 22

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

22: Clause 21, page 11, line 38, after “satisfied” insert “, beyond reasonable doubt,”

Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My Lords, Amendment 22 is in similar terms to the one tabled in Committee by my noble friend Lady Hamwee and proposed by the Joint Committee on Human Rights in its report on the Bill. The amendment will specify in the Bill that when considering whether to make a criminal behaviour order, the court must be satisfied to the criminal standard of proof that the offender has engaged in behaviour that causes or was likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to any person.

The government position was that, as the case law is clear on this point, there was no need to provide for the criminal standard in the legislation. This approach is in line with that taken in other legislation providing for other types of civil preventive orders. However, on reflection, we are satisfied that there are sufficient grounds here for taking a different approach. Part 1 expressly provided that an IPNA was subject to the civil standard of proof so, unless express provision was made in Part 2, we accept that there could be some doubt that the criminal standard would apply in proceedings in respect of the criminal behaviour order. This amendment therefore removes any such doubt. I beg to move.

Baroness Hamwee (LD): My Lords, I am grateful to the Government for having reflected and I thank them for the amendment.

Amendment 22 agreed.

8 Jan 2014 : Column 1591

Amendment 23

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

23: Clause 21, page 12, line 16, leave out paragraph (a)

Amendment 23 agreed.

Amendments 24 and 25 not moved.

Clause 22: Proceedings on an application for an order

Amendment 26 not moved.

Clause 27: Review of orders

Amendments 27 and 28

Moved by Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

27: Clause 27, page 15, line 42, after “any” insert “relevant”

28: Clause 27, page 15, line 42, after “State” insert “under section (Guidance)”

Amendments 27 and 28 agreed.

Clause 28: Carrying out and participating in reviews

Amendment 28A

Moved by Lord Greaves

28A: Clause 28, page 16, line 15, leave out “the Isle of Wight” and insert “a county in which there are no districts”

Lord Greaves: My Lords, this amendment is just trying to help the Government. They have a bit here that is wrong. I raised it in Committee and I thought it would be sorted out. I apologise that I did not notice that it had not been until it was too late to get it on the Marshalled List. Never mind: it has appeared.