5.30 pm

Nevertheless, I have some caution about the amendments and I shall explain why. My first note of caution is that we should not imagine that this solves the problem. This is a very specific, small part of the technical challenge that we face in the new digital era in which we are living. This provides one part, but the most important element, as has been reflected in some of the public statements by members of the intelligence services in recent months, is to do with internet services which are not provided through traditional telecommunications, but are provided in other ways; the data and the legal jurisdiction are held not in this country but overseas. It is over the interception of those that many of the problems arise. Even if we were to accept these proposals, it would plug one particular gap among a very significant number of gaps.

Lord West of Spithead: It is important to note that it does fill part of the gap. I know, having been a Minister for three years, that in the security world the agencies always say we need so-and-so and then they say, actually we need this and we need that. Yes, we do need to do these things with the various servers and providers abroad, but this is also an important part.

Lord Evans of Weardale: I accept that this is a very important element, but it is not the answer to everything.

My second note of caution is that we need to maintain public confidence as we go down this route. That is as important for law enforcement as it is for counterterrorism. The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, referred to the masses who are concerned about the snoopers’ charter. I have to say that the polling evidence I have seen does not necessarily demonstrate that the masses are enormously concerned about this issue. On the whole, the masses seem to be more concerned about their security than about the human rights issues that some people focus on. Nevertheless, there is an issue of public confidence and I do not wish to diminish that.

Despite those notes of caution, I support the amendment. I support it because it is, as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said, a restricted measure, not a blanket measure. I support it because it is drafted with a sunset clause, so that we are filling, as it were, a legislative gap until the totality of the issues can be properly considered in the light of the subsequent

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publication of various reviews that are under way. I think that it will fill a gap for that period. It seems to me to be a useful, rather than a hugely expansive measure, and one which has appropriate safeguards, so I support it.

Lord Paddick (LD): My Lords, I am not speaking here on a party-political, but on a personal basis. I want to tell noble Lords, first, about my personal experience of terrorism. It is not first-hand, either in terms of being a member of Special Branch or the security services, or having seen the aftermath of what took place directly. However, part of my role in the Metropolitan Police following the 7 July bombings was to talk to officers who had had to go down on to the tracks where terrorists had exploded these bombs and bring out the victims of those terrible atrocities. I know what we are talking about here in terms of terrorism and I use the Underground system every day.

In our earlier discussion on Amendment 75 and internal exile, as some put it, noble and learned Lords, in particular, as well as other noble Lords, emphasised the need for legitimacy. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, talked about the European Convention on Human Rights and the right to a private and family life. My concern is that the introduction of these amendments in this way may not be seen as legitimate by many people outside this place. A process has been set in motion. There is a process for reviewing RIPA, for example, and the whole landscape of the intelligence services. That process is in place.

The other issue that noble Lords—and, indeed, two who tabled this amendment—talked about in relation to internal exile is the danger of alienation and resentment. This follows the comments by my noble friend Lady Warsi in yesterday’s Observer about how engagement is essential. We need to engage with communities, not create alienation and resentment. My fear is that the way in which these amendments are drafted is likely to cause exactly that negative effect. My noble friend Lord King, in his opening remarks, said that we are facing a very serious situation. That is common ground. As I have said, I know from personal experience the sorts of dangers that we are facing. However, there is no common ground, I suggest, about the best way to deal with that serious issue.

There has been a lot of talk this afternoon about events in Paris. My understanding is that the information and intelligence that security services got was through mobile telephone communication between the two groups of terrorists which co-ordinated their attacks by that means. There is nothing in these amendments that would give the security services or the police the powers to identify that sort of communication. It exists already. Every day, not only the police and the security services, but other agencies specified in the amendments also have the power, as we speak, to identify who called who on a mobile phone, where and when. So despite all this talk about Paris and how the attacks could have been prevented, these amendments would not appear, on the facts as I know them, to make any difference to the situation.

Terrorists may be adept at using technology, as my noble friend Lord King said, but my understanding is that a lot of terrorists, particular the sort responsible

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for recent attacks—whether we are talking about the tragic death of Lee Rigby or about Paris—are using very old technology. The problem, as my noble friend Lord King rightly said, is getting good intelligence. That is about developing links with the Muslim community and with communities where the extreme right wing operates, and gaining their trust and confidence in order to get that intelligence.

Lord West of Spithead: Does the noble Lord not agree that in, I think I am right in saying, 100% of all the cases where we have stopped a terrorist plot in this country, it has been intelligence via the web or by some SIGINT means that has enabled us to identify the group in order to then carry out action?

Lord Paddick: My understanding is that that is absolutely not the case. There were numerous cases—though it may be going back some years to Irish republican terrorism—where most of the plots were foiled because of intelligence from communities, not because of anything that was intercepted. I understand that the situation is changing, but the noble Lord was not correct when he said that in 100% of cases of terrorism that were thwarted in this country it was as a result of intelligence interception of that kind.

Lord West of Spithead: If I may say so, it was the case during my three years as a Minister. It was very different, of course, from the time of the IRA, which we had completely and thoroughly penetrated.

Baroness Neville-Jones (Con): My Lords—

Lord Paddick: I am sorry, but I have not yet finished, noble Lords will be alarmed to hear.

Noble Lords have said that there is a gap in the capability of the security services and the police in terms of getting similar intelligence that they get from cell site analysis at the moment using mobile phones. My understanding is that the emergency legislation that this House passed towards the end of last year and the measures contained in this Bill, unamended, help to bridge that gap. Intelligence on who is communicating with whom at what time and where can be secured using the IP address provisions contained in the Bill, without the proposed amendments. I am not technically advanced enough to say whether that is the case; perhaps the Minister will be able to tell us whether, or to what extent, the gap that has been identified by other noble Lords will be filled by the Bill as it stands.

The noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, talked about the significance of communications data. Again, my understanding is that the legislation, as put forward by the Government, is designed to fill that gap.

The noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, then spoke about how the draft Communications Data Bill was kicked into touch for political reasons. If the noble Lord means a balance being achieved between human rights—the right to privacy and a private life—and the powers being given to the security services and the police, I would say that that is an absolutely legitimate political reason.

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On mass surveillance, if we are talking about internet service providers retaining web logs and information about every website visited by every individual based in the UK, so that the information can subsequently be accessed in a targeted way by the police and the security services, are we saying, if we accept these amendments, that that can be done simply by the security services or the police providing some legitimate reason why they want to access that information—without any judicial intervention or a judge deciding that there is a legitimate reason to access that data? Are we saying that that is what we want and accept?

People have made fun of the fact that the security services are not going to access where people have done their online shopping. But who in this House believed, when they passed the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, that the police would use that power to establish the identity of confidential press sources? If we pass this very broad legislation, how can we say that there will not be some reason found in the future for the police or the security services to use the legislation in a way we never intended for it to be used?

If noble Lords think that I am being party political, that is a matter for them. I was a police officer for 30 years. I encountered terrorism on a second-hand, rather than first-hand, basis. Unless we have the right balance between rights to privacy and powers for the police and security services, large swathes of communities in this country will no longer co-operate with the police and the security services. That will be an even greater loss of intelligence than any gap that currently exists in the powers of the police and the security services.

Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, the House faces three choices. The first would be not to accept these amendments and not replace them with anything else—in other words, do nothing. I think that the “do nothing” option is the worst that we could possibly follow. In the current situation it is not possible to argue that we do not face growing danger as a result of declining capability against the background of a growing threat. It seems to me that we have a duty to respond to that. I think it a pity that the Government have not brought forward their own amendments on this, but they have not done so yet. I believe that doing something is what this House ought to do. I commend those who have brought forward these amendments.

The other two options are: follow these amendments and vote them into law—it would then be important to accompany them with a sunset clause—or wait for the Government to bring forward something else. That choice depends on the Government’s intentions. It would be preferable for us to be able to vote on something more refined and which incorporated more of the work done by the Joint Committee. I have not been privy to any of the legislation as redrafted. The draft data communications legislation has remained with its poor reputation as a result of the Government not having indicated what they might do to refine the powers therein.

5.45 pm

I hope that we will not do nothing. So the options that we face lie between the Government indicating what their intentions are, whether those powers would

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meet some of the objections—there are some objections to the raw powers in the draft amendments—and whether legislation and the refined powers the Government might bring forward would adequately cover the points at issue. I am not particularly concerned about whether we include organised crime at this stage. This is a counterterrorism Bill. The issue that we are tackling is national security. We should stick to our last and focus on national security. We should ensure that the powers, in so far as they will do the job, are directed at that and do not try to stray wider.

I agree with those who say that, even when we have legislated more powers into existence, we will probably have to come back to this in data communications legislation—and even when we have done that, we will not cover all the possibilities that could arise. It is beyond this country’s capabilities to cover all the contingencies by law. We require international co-operation. There will still be things that we will not be able to cover, even with that. We can go a good deal further to increase our citizens’ security by passing into law some legislation that we badly need. I was not a fan of the data communications legislation when it came out; I thought it far too sweeping. So it is very important that it responds to those who are concerned about the erosion of civil liberties.

It is perfectly possible for the House, with the Government’s help, to pass a piece of legislation that is apposite, which takes us further forward than we are now and which gives us some powers that we do not currently have. I hope it will. I am sure that we will then return to this issue in the data communications legislation—there will be matters there that we cannot cover in this legislation. It is not simply a matter of removing from the future data communications Bill all the legislation applicable to terrorism and national security, but we could take an important part of those powers and incorporate them into legislation in the Bill. I hope the Government will help us to do that.

Lord Armstrong of Ilminster (CB): My Lords, the issue raised by this group of amendments, long as it is, is straightforward enough. We rely on the police and the intelligence and security agencies to protect us and our liberties from the threats to our way of life presented by terrorism. Their ability to do so depends to a large extent on their ability to have access to the data derived from the use of communications by the would-be terrorists.

The regulation of the use of communications data was last reviewed 15 years ago. Since then there have been great changes, as many speakers have said, in the technology of communications, the significance of which, for the regulation of communications, needs urgently to be reviewed.

The threat from terrorism has unquestionably increased. The sophistication of those who use communications for malign purposes has also increased. As we have been told, the efficacy of the activities of the police and intelligence and security agencies in this area have been impaired by the activities of Mr Edward Snowden.

The Government published the draft of a new Communications Data Bill earlier in this Parliament, two or three years ago. That was scrutinised by a Joint Committee of the Houses of Parliament, chaired by

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my noble friend Lord Blencathra—since I was a member of that Committee, perhaps I may call him that. That committee made extensive criticisms of and recommendations for the draft Bill and the Government accepted almost all of them.

There is reason to believe—indeed, as my noble friend Lord Blencathra has already said, he and I have seen—that the Home Office produced a revised version of the draft Bill, to take full account of the Joint Committee’s recommendations. Unfortunately that revised Bill has not been allowed to see the light of day, let alone been submitted to Parliament for consideration. That will not now happen until there is a new Parliament. If a revised Bill is not introduced until after the election, it might be that it cannot be passed until well into 2016. That would be another year’s delay, which we can ill afford.

The present Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill provides an opportunity to put into effect, within the next few months, the measures proposed in the revised Communications Data Bill, insofar as they affect the response to the enhanced threats from terrorism and the agencies responsible for countering those threats. That is what the amendments seek to achieve. The amendments also provide for a sunset clause that would ensure that the whole matter is reviewed early in the new Parliament. Since we do not have the revised version of the draft Communications Data Bill, those responsible for these amendments have had to rely on the original Bill. No doubt the amendments are to that extent defective. But Parliament should not be denied the opportunity of considering whether and how to achieve the changes required immediately and without the delay consequent upon waiting until the next Parliament.

I expect—though I cannot commit them—that those who are putting forward these amendments would be prepared to withdraw them if the Government would undertake this evening to introduce on Report revised versions, taking account of the criticisms and recommendations of my noble friend Lord Blencathra’s pre-legislative scrutiny committee, but also adopting the proposals in the amendments for confining the changes to the police and intelligence and security agencies and providing a sunset clause ensuring that the issue has to be considered in the wider context of a review of the regulation of communications data by the new Parliament. With that qualification, I fully support the amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord King, and his colleagues.

These amendments provide an opportunity to address without delay acknowledged shortcomings in the effectiveness of the present regime. It is suggested that they would be an unacceptable intrusion on the liberty of the citizen. That can be much exaggerated. It is not government agencies that will store the data, and those agencies will be able to obtain access to the stored data only subject to demonstrable need and justification and subject to rigorous procedures and controls that were examined and found fit for purpose by the committee—as my noble friend Lord Blencathra has said.

Even so, they will of course represent some potential interference with the freedom of action of those whose data are extracted from the store. But those are or may

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be the people whose freedom of action we wish to limit or restrain, because their intentions are malign and, if realised, will compromise the life, liberty and happiness of the rest of us. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance, but if vigilance fails or is frustrated, it is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that pay the price.

Lord Strasburger (LD): My Lords, I confess that I do not really know where to start. I think it is true that all the previous speakers are former members of what I would call the security establishment: they are former policemen, former Home Office Ministers or former spies—I am not sure in which category I would put the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong. I think I am the first to speak more as an individual and a non-politician; my history before I came to this House was quite outside of politics, in business.

As we have heard, these amendments regurgitate large parts of the utterly discredited draft communications data Bill. They seek to slip into the Bill large parts of the highly controversial snoopers’ charter, word for word. With just one exception, the amendments fail to correct any of the many significant, fundamental and deal-stopping flaws identified by the Joint Select Committee on the draft Bill that reported at the end of 2012. I had the honour of being a member of that Select Committee under the very able chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Blencathra. The committee sat for five months; it met 20 times, including three times in the Recess; it interviewed 54 witnesses and received 19,000 e-mails from members of the public. As we have heard, its members included two former Cabinet members, Lady Thatcher’s Cabinet Secretary, one noble Lord who has since become a government Minister, an ultra-loyal Conservative MP and a former Conservative Home Office Minister. That was hardly a hotbed of lefty liberals. The committee reached a unanimous verdict that the draft Bill was badly written, far too broad in scope and badly costed, and noted that the security agencies would do better to make better use of the information they already had.

That last observation is made particularly pertinent by the revelations following the atrocities in Woolwich and Paris, in which all the terrorists were well known to the security agencies long before the events. In all, there were about 100 criticisms of the draft Bill in the Select Committee’s report and many of them were serious and fundamental. As far as I can see, these amendments deal with just one of those criticisms, which means that they are still infested with the remaining 99 flaws. I will not detain the House by going through each of them, but noble Lords may read about them at their leisure in the report, which I commend to the House.

When Edward Snowden released his revelations, about six months after the Select Committee reported, we learnt that GCHQ’s Project Tempora is the world’s first “full-take” data interception system, collecting 100% of internet traffic—content as well as metadata. Former committee members were surprised, and some were angered, by that revelation because during the committee’s proceedings Home Office officials had three times claimed that there was a 25% capability gap in what the agencies could collect—although those

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same officials were not able to justify that figure of 25%, even in private sessions. Snowden showed that the 25% so-called gap probably does not exist at all and that in fact the agencies are already, and have been for some time, acquiring far more data than the draft Bill would have delivered—and without the knowledge or consent of Parliament and the people.

6 pm

However, the biggest reason that this Committee should have nothing to do with these amendments is that they are a gratuitous affront to parliamentary democracy. These 18 pages of amendments would have huge implications in terms of intrusion by the state into the private lives of innocent citizens. The Select Committee found it very hard to believe the Home Office figure of £1.8 billion as the cost to the taxpayer, and, as I have said before, there are serious doubts about the efficacy of these proposed measures. Yet here they are, with a proposal to slip them into this Bill—I remind the Committee that this is a fast-tracked Bill—at two days’ notice and after the other place has completed its deliberations on the Bill. All that is left is ping-pong, which I cannot believe provides the right circumstances in which legislation of this importance and of such controversy should be considered.

Notwithstanding the many faults that these amendments inherited from the snoopers’ charter, the Committee must consign them to the dustbin of history because Parliament cannot possibly give them the consideration they absolutely need.

Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB): My Lords, I apologise for not being able to speak at Second Reading. I was detained at a board meeting.

This House has given me many occasions to feel both alarmed and surprised. Today is no exception, first, in describing Tinder to my Back-Bench friends during an earlier part of the debate and, secondly, in rising to speak against four noble Lords for whom I have the greatest respect and who have offered me enormous friendship since I entered your Lordships’ House. I should like to cite three brief reasons why I oppose the amendment.

First, I wholeheartedly agree that we need a more detailed, complex and timely debate around this enormously complicated issue. The Government were slow to react compared to the quick review by America of the oversight and security services post-Snowden. This Government have looked lacklustre in their response. However, different processes are under way.

I declare an interest as being part of a panel set up by the Deputy Prime Minister and administered by the Royal United Services Institute. The Information Commissioner work is also continuing and we have the emergency legislation referred to as DRIP, which has already been talked about this afternoon. I believe it is very important that those pieces of work reach the next stage and that the debate in Parliament puts all of them into the mix.

Secondly, it is easy to underestimate the power of the public’s view on this subject. The noble Lord, Lord West, mentioned that he thinks that the public are fairly disinterested in this issue but I disagree

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wholeheartedly. A YouGov survey found that only 6% of people believe that the Government have a coherent data strategy but that it affects them directly. Another poll whose results I saw recently said that just 2% of people trust the Government when it comes to their data. That is immensely important for the reason that the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, most eloquently espoused earlier—to build trust and engagement among exactly the groups that this legislation is trying to reach.

More than that, perhaps I may give two technical examples that make me believe that such trust is so vital. There is now a move towards more and more use of the dark web—a place where it is very difficult to collect any data—and towards more and more encryption. At one end of the spectrum is a small start-up—actually it is not so small any more—called Wickr. This was started by a woman in the US and it enables communications to remain completely secure. Imagine sending a message that is never stored on any server anywhere. Not only does it disappear remotely in your hand but also it never stays on the network. She has had enormous success in building her app—quite understandably for many people, who believe that they should have a private mechanism for communication and that the Snowden revelations have shown that systems are not safe or secure. Then, more in the mainstream, we have Facebook, which has recently asserted that it is starting a sub-site on the dark web—the unregulatable and uncontrollable web—so that its customers can feel safe.

If we do not listen to what the world is doing and move and engage with it, allowing people to feel that their concerns around security are being addressed, there is a danger that we will take a retrograde step with communications Bills, such as with this amendment.

Finally, I believe that we need to engage much more deeply with both civil liberties groups and the industry itself. Here, I agree with a recent statement by President Obama, which I hope the Committee will forgive me for repeating. At the press conference in Washington which he shared with our own Prime Minister, he said in answer to a question about surveillance and about whether there was a swing to security from privacy:

“In six years I and the Prime Minister have seen a constant threat stream across our desks—the pendulum doesn’t need to swing but we need a consistent framework. There needs to be a debate about the laws and the discussion needs to involve the tech industry, who have responsibilities not only to security but also to the customers who use their products, and it also needs to involve the civil libertarians who are tapping us on the shoulder”.

I urge the Government to address the very real concerns of the general public on the one side and the security services on the other, particularly about the boundaries and framework for data collection, but I urge them not to do so by way of this amendment.

Baroness Ludford: My Lords, there are objections of both process and substance to these amendments which make it inopportune and injudicious to cut and paste this amendment into the Bill—to “bounce” it into the Bill, in the words of my noble friend Lord Blencathra, whose speech I thoroughly commend. As the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, has just mentioned, there is an issue of trust. We all know—it is commented on with great regularity—that there is very little trust in politicians and parliamentarians.

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The noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, even though she would like an updated communications data Bill, referred to the poor reputation of the existing model. However, it is the existing model, shorn of the safeguard of judicial authorisation and scrutiny and the safeguard of restrictions on the exercise of powers, that it is proposed should be inserted in the form of these amendments.

I have counted five current reviews of investigatory powers, which make it bad timing to proceed with the substance of these amendments. As I understand it, there is one by the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, David Anderson, another by the Intelligence and Security Committee, another at the request of the Deputy Prime Minister by the Royal United Services Institute, another by Sir Nigel Sheinwald on the international aspects, and one by the Interception of Communications Commissioner, Sir Paul Kennedy, into the use of RIPA to identify journalists’ sources. With all those reviews going on, I think it is rather disrespectful to them to say, “Well, we won’t wait for those conclusions but we’ll stick into this Bill all this new capacity to collect communications data”.

Mention has been made of the capability gap. The 2012 committee report said that the Government failed to share with the committee the research findings behind their assertion of a then 25%, going on 35%, capability gap, and that such a figure was “unhelpful and potentially misleading”. Therefore, we simply do not know what the capability is. My noble friend Lord Strasburger mentioned the revelations of the Tempora programme. I am not sure why we bother to legislate half the time, as GCHQ seems to go a great deal beyond the scope of any Bill.

The report also said:

“Part of the gap is the lack of ability of law enforcement agencies to make effective use of the data that is available”.

That is not my assertion but the assertion of a very thorough and wise Joint Committee report. I agree with it that addressing that ability should be a priority.

There was also mention of the failure to consult communication service providers and internet service providers, and there have been recent complaints, which I mentioned earlier, by the Internet Services Providers’ Association about the lack of consultation. Before any redrafted legislation is introduced, the Joint Committee recommended extensive and meaningful consultation,

“once there is clarity as to the real aims of the Home Office”,

which would be quite useful.

Lord West of Spithead: While I understand what the noble Baroness is saying about the various studies, does she agree that over six years, which is how long it has taken us to address this starting to lose data, is rather a long time? It is slightly longer than it took us to defeat Hitler, and it is a long time to keep on looking at other things. Do we not have to take some action if we are to achieve something?

Baroness Ludford: I thank the noble Lord for that remark, but I understand that the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation has a target date of May—four months away—to produce his report. I am sure that we can wait four months.

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I would also mention the huge expense that these amendments would produce. One can also query the value of a sunset clause. If hundreds of millions of pounds had been spent on the project by December 2016, it is likely that Parliament would say, “We have spent so much already, so we might as well carry on”.

The noble Lord, Lord King, quoted me as preferring targeted to blanket surveillance. What I meant was not what he has put forward in his amendments. He has removed some of the organisations, but I understand that there is still no specification that it is the security services and the police; the reference is to “purposes”. Other agencies could be pursuing matters for the purpose of serious crime, so the provisions would not be limited to the police and security services. By targeting, I meant not limiting it to certain “purposes”; I meant it to limit the scope of Amendment 79, which replicates Clause 1 of the draft Bill.

As my noble friend Lord Blencathra said, it was the huge breadth of that Clause 1, which is now reflected in Amendment 79, which was so objectionable. The Joint Committee said:

“It is hardly surprising that a proposal for powers of this width has caused public anxiety”.

Even the Intelligence and Security Committee said that more detail was needed on the face of the Bill, but that detail is not in the amendments put forward today. The Joint Committee concluded:

“Clause 1 therefore should be re-drafted with a much narrower scope, so that the Secretary of State may make orders subject to Parliamentary approval enabling her to issue notices only to address specific data gaps as need arises … We do not think that Parliament should grant powers … on the precautionary principle”—

the idea was that new ways of communicating would come along. That was an extremely wise conclusion, yet the amendments consist of precisely the breadth of that Clause 1.

The Joint Committee was particularly exercised over the possible requirement to keep web logs and, as the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said, wanted,

“Parliament to address and determine this fundamental question”,

specifically. Amendment 79 does not allow us to address that specific and fundamental question. In the mean time we are legislating on IP addresses in this Bill. Neither I nor any of my colleagues have objected to that, although we wanted to tease out some of the detail.

The Joint Committee also said that there were huge technical and civil liberties concerns about the collection of third-party data and the lack of detail on that in the Bill. The report states:

“United Kingdom CSPs are rightly very nervous about these provisions”.

They simply could not understand the implications of having to collect data from third-party suppliers who happened to cross their networks.

6.15 pm

For all the reasons of both process and substance, it is impossible to consider putting theses amendments into the Bill. For example, the filtering arrangements are fully reflected in the amendments put forward today. The Joint Committee characterised this as a “request filter”, and said that it was really not so

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different from the single, centralised state database proposed by the previous Government in 2008 that both coalition parties opposed. The report said that the reason why it was not so different from the centralised database, even though the data would be stored by all those private companies, was because it,

“can be equated to a federated database”.

It would not be in one centralised place, but essentially it was very similar. It would make it possible to perform profile searches and to do data mining. It would involve risks amounting to general monitoring, which would be contrary to the EU e-commerce directive—I am sure that everyone is very unhappy that we could be in breach of EU law—and there would be a temptation to go on fishing expeditions.

We need to take that report very seriously. Parliament appointed a committee of both Houses to look at the draft Bill. It did a painstaking and thorough job and said that the Bill would not wash. It is far too broad and dangerous to privacy and civil liberties. Yet the amendments today simply cut and paste. I realise that part of the exercise is to try to provoke the Minister into saying something that noble Lords might consider helpful—or not quite so helpful—but we are faced simply with a cut and paste of the 2012 Bill, with its huge breadth, lax definitions and terminology rooted in a pre-internet age. We should not accept the amendments. Whatever case there might be for a redrafted communications data Bill—my noble friend Lord Blencathra called it a snoopers’ charter, so I feel able to call it a snoopers’ charter, whatever some noble Lords might say—that case has not been made today. We have the old version and it is highly inopportune to accept it.

Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): My Lords, I rise to oppose the amendments for many of the reasons outlined here today. First, they are unnecessary. We have heard a lot about gaps, targeted and not blanket surveillance and bringing things up to date. This is, of course, absolute nonsense. As the noble Lord, Lord Paddick, said, the Met and presumably the other agencies already have the powers they need—powers that, I suggest, go far beyond what they need. We heard a lot today about Paris and Lee Rigby, but in fact all my information says that the shortcomings of the pre-investigation in Paris and in the Lee Rigby tragic murder were due not to a lack of surveillance but to a lack of good police work. That is what was fundamentally missing. It was not about not having enough recordings or surveillance. It was about a lack of information and a lack of talking to marginalised community groups. The cross-party committee which reported in November on the handling of the Lee Rigby killers exposed major internal failings in the way that agencies pursue leads. It found that both men had been known to the agencies for years—one had even been considered a priority—but basic issues such as delays, poor communication and bad record-keeping caused the problems, not the surveillance of the suspects.

Although these amendments are obviously within the letter of the law, they seem to me to be fundamentally undemocratic in the way that they are being brutally pushed into our parliamentary process. This seems to me a way of short-circuiting real scrutiny. It is great

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that they were looked at before, but they still need looking at again; if they are—I hope the Minister is listening—they absolutely must be looked at by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. It should look at these amendments before there is any more discussion in either of these Houses.

For me, this snoopers’ charter reduces our rights, and surely that is exactly what the terrorists are after. Terrorists want to impact on our society and on every single person who does not believe the way that they do. That is what we are letting happen here. It is absolutely mad. The Mayor of London recently referred to “this civil liberties stuff” in the most dismissive way, as if that is negotiable—that civil liberties are not terribly important when we compare them with the threat of terrorism. That is exactly when we need our civil liberties. That is what we in the West should be known for.

There is also the cost. My experience of the Met over the past 15 years is that it cannot deal with the data that it already has. I have asked many questions about its databases and the information that it gets from them. The Met does not know how many databases it has—it cannot tell me how many to the nearest hundred. Also, it often cannot search its databases. For example, I had the dubious pleasure of being on its domestic extremist database, I think under the regime of the noble Lord, Lord Blair, and I hope that I am not on the database anymore—the Met has changed its definition of what a domestic extremist is—but who knows because I cannot get the information. However, the Met cannot search that database for serious criminal activity. Because the definition was changed to relate to serious criminals, if you ask, “Can you look through the database and find out how many serious criminals you have?”, you will be told, “Oh, we haven’t logged that, so we can’t do that”.

Not only are we expecting the Met staff to deal with more data when they cannot sort and file the data that they already have, but, I would argue, they have enough powers. The noble Lord, Lord Blair, talked about some very tragic incidents where more surveillance might actually solve a crime or find a lost child. In fact, the police already have these powers. They have them under RIPA and, in my view, they are already misusing them. Under RIPA they do not have to go to a judge to ask if they can put surveillance on somebody; they just have to go to a chief inspector in a nearby unit and ask, “Could you sign this for me? It’s surveillance on somebody or other”.

We should not be thinking about giving more powers to our spies and to the police. We should be very careful about this. We should think about taking back some of those powers and making sure that we persist in keeping our civil liberties and human rights and do not let the terrorists take them away from us.

Lord Macdonald of River Glaven: My Lords, I was surprised that at an early stage in his speech the noble Lord, Lord West, suggested—until he revised the figure—that communications data were employed in some 95% of criminal cases. My experience from the years when I was responsible for prosecuting serious crime and terrorism was that the figure was 100%. I cannot remember a serious criminal case, and I certainly cannot remember a terrorism case, in which

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communications data were not used. Of course, there is a difference between data which are employed to detect terrorism and data which are then used as part of a prosecution to convict terrorists. Certainly, so far as the latter is concerned, there was a vast amount in every case.

The noble Lord, Lord Evans, will remember some of those cases which occurred when he was director-general of the Security Service. The men who tried to commit mass murder on London’s Underground are serving long prison sentences. The men who wanted to detonate a bomb containing radioactive material in Oxford Street are serving long prison sentences. The men who wanted to put a bomb in Bluewater shopping centre at half-term when it would be particularly busy are serving long prison sentences. In the case of the men who wanted to put a bomb in a nightclub—the Ministry of Sound—two were recorded by members of the noble Lord’s service. The leader of the gang said to one of his colleagues, “No one will be able to criticise us for blowing up a nightclub; all those slags dancing around”. This is material which is of the utmost importance in criminal prosecutions.

It is also true, of course, that technology is changing and our capacity to monitor this sort of material must change with it. I accept that, but I do not believe that these amendments are the right vehicle for achieving that change. These amendments suffer from the deficiencies which the original Bill suffered from; in particular, they are insufficiently specific. I agree with everything that the noble Lord said in his compelling speech a few minutes ago. These amendments are deficient for the same reasons that the original Bill was deficient and I shall not support them. This is not, as my noble friend Lord Carlile said, a party political matter. It is a matter of analysing the material and determining whether it is fit for purpose. With respect, I do not agree with my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones that we must do something. We must do the right thing and I do not think that this is the right thing. In everything, we must maintain balance and proportionality. No one has argued in this debate that we should not have a mechanism whereby the security services can access material of this sort. The question is what sort of mechanism.

The security services in recent years, and perhaps in years long gone by, have been led by people who understand the tension between security and rights. When I was DPP and the noble Lord was the director-general of the Security Service, I enjoyed the discussions we had on this topic. Sometimes we disagreed about precisely where the line was drawn, but we agreed that there was a line. One of my fears about these amendments, as with the draft Communications Data Bill, is that they draw the line in the wrong place. One result of that would be an adverse impact on our great security institutions. There is no doubt that the security services in this country enjoy enormous public support, which is unfamiliar even in democracies such as France. It is clearly understood by people in this country that the security services are after “them and not us”. In other words, they are interested in targeting those individuals who are trying to do us wrong rather than the rest of us. The danger of breadth in legislation of this sort is that, if the idea

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gets about that the security services are interested in everybody’s communications, not just the material of those subject to investigation who are being targeted because it is believed that they are involved in crime, then the sense which the British people have of their security institutions will begin to alter in subtle ways, and not for the good. I would caution those who argue that legislation of this breadth is needed because it is future-proof. We must take great care with legislation that is enacted in the context of the sort of public confidence issues that the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, indicated.

People are interested in these issues. They express their interest in different ways, but there is a feeling abroad that the Government and the security services are becoming nosy. I do not believe that that is true, but if we enact legislation that appears to people to be unnaturally broad, we run the risk of feeding that monster. I shall oppose the amendment.

6.30 pm

Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB): My Lords, I sense that the House probably wants to come to a conclusion, so I will not delay noble Lords long. Very powerful speeches have been made both in favour of the powers in these amendments and against them. But I note that the speeches that have been made against have been made against these particular amendments—the ones that were taken out of the draft communications data Bill. Something else has happened in the mean time. An admirable process was followed on this Bill. It was submitted to a Joint Committee and that committee reported on it and its defects. The Intelligence and Security Committee also considered the Bill with classified evidence and we similarly identified some defects. Since then, a revised Bill has been prepared. The noble Lords, Lord Blencathra and Lord Armstrong, have seen that Bill and they consider that it meets 95% of the criticisms that were in the original Bill. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, went so far as to say that if those clauses had been presented he would not have objected to them.

There is therefore a Bill waiting. The urgency has increased. The threat is now much higher. If the Government consider that this is a serious threat—they say that they do—it is their duty to produce that Bill and take action on it quickly if that can be done before the election. The arguments that have gone against these amendments do not go against taking that course.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, made another powerful argument, which was that if legislation were hastened it would create resentment and possibly opposition among the people whom we need to carry with us. But I disagree with her in this respect. She said that that may accelerate the bad people going to the dark web, but I think they will go there anyway. We are dealing with very sophisticated people. The argument that she makes simply underlines the fact that we are running behind the development of technology. The fact that we cannot go all the way to dealing with it should not prevent us doing what we can. That is an urgent matter.

The House will not be surprised to hear that I could not find myself in agreement with a lot of the things said by the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, but in one

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respect I do agree with her. What worries me most is the cost of this legislation, which, if I recall rightly, is put at £1.6 billion. That is money that could be well used on other aspects of the Prevent process. I am torn about whether this is the best use of the money. But I take the view—the noble Lord, Lord West, argued about being hard-nosed with the providers—that it ought to be a duty of the providers to retain these records. It is not something that the taxpayer ought to pay for. The providers make a great deal of money out of these services. If they are required to keep these records at a cost, they may bid a little less for the licences, but I am prepared to take that risk. It should be a condition of the licences that records of this sort should be retained which can be consulted.

My final point underlines something said by the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong. We are not talking about the Government or the authorities holding these records. If people are writing to Alcoholics Anonymous, the Government will not have access to that information. They will access these records only when they are looking for people they have reason to believe are preparing terrorist acts or serious crimes. People who are going to Alcoholics Anonymous have no serious cause to be concerned.

Lord Marlesford (Con): My Lords, I am curious about two of the sources of opposition to what my noble friend Lord King and others have proposed. One is that we somehow have plenty of time and that we do not need to rush. Terrorism is time-related, but it is not time-limited. The terrorist threat was there yesterday and the day before. It is certainly there today and it will be there tomorrow, I am afraid, and I fear the day after tomorrow as well. We do not have the luxury of time that many have suggested.

The other point that surprised me so much is the one about public concern. Of course, it is very easy to say to the public that there is a danger of a snoopers’ charter, which will interfere with everything that you are communicating and is very much against your interests. We know that technically that is simply not true. It is a fear and concern that has been fanned by politicians, quite often for their own purposes.

The noble Lord, Lord Butler, was so right to draw attention to the fact that a draft Bill has been prepared. As far as I can make out, that has been deliberately suppressed by one party for presumably some sort of political reason. It has not been brought forward for discussion. If you ask the public to choose between reducing the risk of death from terrorism to themselves or others whom they do not know, or a possible invasion of their privacy or the privacy of others whom they know or do not know, I have little doubt as to what they would choose.

There are ways in which the security of this country is not being maintained when the Government would like to maintain it. I take one example. It is clearly in our interests in the world of terrorism that we should know who crosses our borders—out as well as in. We have been given an example of the people who go to do jihad and all the rest of it. The fact is that a big attempt was made with the e-Borders programme. A contract worth £750 million was given to Raytheon in

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2007. It ran into tremendous difficulties and in 2010 the contract was cancelled. Since then there has been a great deal of judicial toing and froing and arbitration. The net result appears to be a debt to the taxpayer to be paid by the Home Office to Raytheon of £200 million. Something like that failed when it was tried. Let us at least do things that we think can be done. Do not let us say that we have until the day after tomorrow as things may happen tomorrow.

Baroness Warsi (Con): My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Butler, I appreciate that this debate has gone on for some time, so I will try to keep my intervention short. These extensive amendments have been proposed in many ways by people whom I consider to be institutions, so I am therefore hesitant to stand up and speak on them. They have been proposed by people for whom I have much admiration. But it concerns me that they are being bolted on to what is already a difficult and in many parts controversial Bill, at the end of a Parliament in what will be a toxic political year and in an expedited way. It is probably not the best way in which to bring these matters forward. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, that if there is a better version of this Bill out there in the ether of government it may have been better to have considered that version rather than the one before us today.

I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, for her expert understanding of the IT community and developments in that community. It always surprises me that just when we think that we will be able to deal with an issue the industry finds a way that leads us to think—after that legislation has been passed—that we probably will not. In those circumstances it is important that we ask whether what we are going to do is needed.

The noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, made some very important points about evidence gathered and the basis on which we secure prosecutions and convictions for people who are now serving sentences. Is it absolutely true that this kind of communication is the missing link, right now, in preventing terrorist actions being successful? The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, raised the issue of the two ladies who are married to the two men in France and were communicating with each other, how we did not have those data, and how, had we had that information, it might have provided the missing link that alerted the French security services. I, for one, am not convinced. Sisters-in-law spend hours gossiping to each other all the time. I am not sure that that would have been the moment when the bright light came on to say that a terrorist act was going to be committed—because two women married to two men are speaking to each other.

The gathering and retention of these data is for the purposes of national security. Again, noble Lords, or the Minister, may be able to clarify what this means. I was talking to the noble Lord, Lord King, earlier, about the definition of national security as it relates to this amendment, or part of the Bill, and we could not find such a definition. Perhaps somebody could bring one to my attention. However, for the purposes of national security something that could be interpreted as very wide and broad, and which could change

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depending on the political persuasions of Ministers at any time, is a very wide provision and so requires consideration.

I hear the point which has been made: “We do not have the time”, but I also think that our security services have, through the number of plots they have foiled up to now, shown that they are able to operate within current constraints and keep us safe. While we need to give them more power, over time, to make sure that they continue to keep us safe, it is important that those powers work and are needed by the people who are an essential element of our fight against extremism and terrorism.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Weardale, who, in many meetings, used to be the biggest voice of reason on these issues. He spoke of the amount of support and co-operation that was received from the British Muslim communities in the fight against terrorism, and how that was an essential element of ensuring that we were kept safe. I speak as somebody who has been on the receiving end of what could be described as profiling or as a general concern about keeping us safe. I probably get more random checks than many Members of this House and my husband is never going to catch an internal flight in the US. He never arranges a meeting on the day he arrives in the US, because he knows he is going to miss his first internal flight. It is, therefore, important that whatever powers come into play are effective, and that they do not send out a general sense of alienation among those communities which we need to keep on board. I made that point in my piece at the weekend, saying that we must seriously look at how the Government start to engage in a much broader and deeper way with the British Muslim communities, who are going to be part of the solution.

A recent radio phone-in asked whether, if your husband, wife, partner or “relevant other half” asked you to hand over your mobile phone to him or her right now so that they could look at absolutely everything on it, you would be prepared to hand it over immediately. Or would you think: “I probably need to delete a few things from this phone before I hand it to them”. Perhaps that is a question that we should all go away and think about. If we cannot just hand things over to those whom we consider to be our “relevant other halves”, knowing that our data are completely safe with them, although there may be consequences, then we should be much more careful about handing over that power to government—the different colours of government—who could, over time, go into realms that we would not want them to go into.

6.45 pm

Baroness Smith of Basildon: My Lords, this has been a long debate with some powerful and informed speeches. I take issue with one thing that the noble Lord, Lord King of Bridgwater, said at the beginning of his comments. I think he was referring to something that had been said to him about this being an unacceptable use of parliamentary time. I totally disagree. In fact, my criticism is that we do not spend enough parliamentary time discussing issues that are of primary importance to both our security and our liberty and to finding the

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balance between them. Your Lordships’ House has enormous expertise, interest and experience on these issues, which this debate has shown very clearly.

Whatever one’s views on specific amendments, it has become clear that the general view is that legislation is being outpaced by the speed of change in technology. We have had a serious and very thoughtful debate today about the balance between security and privacy in what our security services and police require, and how we can legislate most effectively from an informed position, with public understanding and consent. Technology changes rapidly. That means that we, as parliamentarians, have to respond to those changes and ensure that legislation meets the challenges that those changes bring.

Last July we brought in emergency legislation, the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act. My noble friend Lord West referred to a six-year delay. Some of the points he was concerned about were brought forward in that legislation, which was due to a European Court ruling that struck down something that we had put in secondary legislation rather than primary legislation. We were able to address that in DRIPA—as it is affectionately known—and we supported that Bill to ensure that the existing capability was maintained. However, we were then highly critical of the Government's use of the fast-track procedure, as they had ample opportunity to bring that legislation before the House sooner. We said then—and it was very evident—that an ad hoc, piecemeal approach to such serious and important issues using fast-track processes was unacceptable.

At our instigation all parties agreed on a thorough statutory review, to be undertaken by the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, David Anderson, into the capabilities needed to meet changing technology, and on the oversight and the safeguards that are necessary to ensure that any legislation is both necessary and proportionate. In addition, the Intelligence and Security Committee is examining how we can properly balance both security and liberty in online communications.

However, a theme of this debate since we started it is the question of where the Government's plans to tackle this issue are. Over two years ago the Government withdrew their Data Communications Bill following serious criticisms from the Joint Committee of both Houses which had been set up, and was chaired, as we have heard, by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra—a highly qualified committee of parliamentarians, including future and former Ministers. I reread this report over the weekend. The committee’s criticisms of the Government’s Bill were serious and far-reaching: the Bill’s provisions were too sweeping and too broad, it paid insufficient attention to privacy issues, and it went much further than it needed to. The report criticised the safeguards and the definition of communications data, and it was highly critical of the Government’s analysis of the costs and benefits, describing some of the figures as “fanciful” and “misleading”. It was also critical of the additional personal powers provided to the Home Secretary. That is very serious criticism.

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At the same time, the committee was explicit about its necessity. The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, in his powerful contribution, quoted it. It said that,

“legislation which will provide the law enforcement agencies with some further access to communications is needed”.

The committee suggested a more balanced proposal to be brought forward for consideration and recommended improvements to the Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, said, that information would be presented to Parliament and it would be for Parliament to decide that balance and where the line must be drawn. But that was over two years ago, and the Government have not brought forward any further proposals to give Parliament that opportunity to decide. Last week the Home Secretary told the other place that she had accepted the recommendations, but we have had no explanation as to why she has not come forward with revised provisions other than the limited measures in this Bill and those in the 2014 DRIP Act.

Now, as the general election looms and despite the excellent work of the Joint Committee, the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have started to speak out about the need for new powers but have not produced any evidence to Parliament, have not initiated a serious debate on the detail, and in more than two years have not produced, so far as I am aware, a new draft Bill. But we have heard today that there is a draft Bill. The noble Lords, Lord Blencathra and Lord Armstrong, have seen it, but has anyone else? Has the Minister seen the draft Bill, which apparently the Government have sitting on the shelf?

I say to those who want to characterise this debate as being about either those who care about security or those who care about liberty that they are doing the public a serious disservice. I really do not like the term “snooper’s charter”; the issue is bigger and far more serious than that. The police and our agencies need the capacity to capture intelligence information that will foil terrorist attacks. They need to be able to respond quickly to identify, for example, the last known location of a missing child or a murder victim. They need to know who sends abusive images of children, and they need to monitor potential terrorists. They also need to build their capability to tackle online fraud and cyberattacks, which are escalating all the time.

Some of the tools, particularly in relation to the retention of communications data, are controversial and cause concern. If we want the public to support such powers, we need to provide more information about why they are needed, how they will be used and how privacy will be protected. That is why we have to be prepared to have an open and honest public debate about the framework, the principles and the safeguards to ensure that these powers cannot be abused. Obviously such a debate has to be sensitive to the necessity of not exposing intelligence capabilities and should recognise the fact that some details must remain secure so as not to endanger national security or criminal investigations. Any legislation has to be necessary and proportionate, and it has to strike the balance between security and liberty. It is not an either/or. The public are entitled to expect both, and they are entitled to expect us to determine that balance from an informed position.

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It is widely accepted that there has been a technical revolution in how we communicate and that the law and the oversight framework are now out of date. We need to understand how far and how quickly new technologies are outstripping the legal framework. We also need to understand how the use of new technologies has blurred the distinction between communications and content, as well as between domestic and international communications using mobile phone and tablet apps. The last debate we had on this in your Lordships’ House showed that many noble Lords are still confused about the difference when communicating through web apps. The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, referred to the challenges posed by the dark web. How many of us here today, apart from the noble Baroness, can claim to have the expertise that is needed to consider all the details of these issues? We need to understand not only the legal implications but the privacy and technical implications.

David Anderson’s report examined the details of issues such as authorisation, access, storage, technical capabilities, checks and balances, safeguards and so on. We are clear that following both that report and the report of the Intelligence and Security Committee, the Government must take action. Indeed, there is a time imperative to do so before the DRIPA provisions expire in 2016, at which point new legislation must be in place and fully operational. The Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill introduces further measures to address the issue of identification of a device that is used for communications at an IP address, given that in many circumstances multiple users will be sharing the same IP address. We support those changes. We have been clear that we are willing to work with the Government to discuss capabilities and safeguards, the powers that are needed, and the checks and balances that are required to ensure that the detail between protecting our liberty and protecting our security is right, and we want to engage the public in that debate.

But the Government have not initiated that debate. They have had the opportunity to do so, and apparently the legislation for that is on the shelf in the Home Office, gathering dust. That is why noble Lords have tabled their amendments today. However, what they have been unable to do in the time available and without access to the resources and information of government is what the Home Secretary has promised, and that is to adapt the original proposals to take account of the concerns and criticisms of the original Bill. I appreciate that the noble Lords have made the judgment, which is justified in part, that people are more accepting of measures that deal with terrorism and serious crime. However, when we look at some of the detail and examine the report of the committee, we can see that there are a number of other issues to which the attention of the Committee should be drawn.

Interestingly, one of the criticisms in the report was not of the purposes of the Bill, although the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, did say that the number of organisations that can have access should be limited, but of something that goes much deeper. The Government’s view was that wider powers may be needed in the future, but the committee rejected the

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notion that Parliament should grant powers on the precautionary principle and thus without a current and pressing need.

I will not go into the detail about the individual clauses before us today because other noble Lords have spoken about them, but it is clear that they have not been able to take into account the recommendations for changes made by the Joint Committee. Perhaps I may mention just one because it raises a serious issue. In the detail of the amendment before the Committee today, no provision is made for the recommendation of the Joint Committee that any legislation should provide for the wilful or reckless misuse of communications data to become a specific offence that is punishable, in appropriate cases, by imprisonment. That is a recommendation of both the Justice and the Home Affairs Select Committees of the other place. Although if passed these amendments would be returned to the Commons, they have not been properly discussed and debated. This is complex and detailed legislation that requires proper scrutiny and expert advice. To have such clauses in fast-tracked legislation whose Report stage will be taken next week makes that difficult.

I have already referred to the assessment being undertaken by the independent reviewer, David Anderson. His review needs to address the serious points that have been raised by the noble Lords, Lord King, Lord Blair and Lord Carlile, and my noble friend Lord West. He also needs to deal with the points raised by the Joint Committee more than two years ago. We insisted on that statutory review and all three parties supported it. It is extremely unfortunate that we are in a position today where the Home Secretary has made no proper public or parliamentary response to the Joint Committee on the independent review, which was started just last summer at our instigation and where currently we have no proper process for consultation or the detailed scrutiny of proposals. That was yet another complaint of the Joint Committee.

The noble Lord, Lord Condon, talked about a road map. The Government need to set out a proper process for this. We need to see detailed legislative proposals from the Government, along with a summary of the capabilities and the safeguards to take account of the issues raised last time. We need to ensure that the measures are sustainable and enjoy broad public consent, otherwise we will undermine confidence in the vital work that the agencies do, and companies whose co-operation is needed will find themselves under pressure from their customers to find ways around the legislation. So although we do not think that these amendments are the right ones—I think this was acknowledged by the noble Lord, Lord King, who spoke of the amendments that he would be prepared to incorporate for the Joint Committee report—because they do not fit into a wider government process, we do think that this is an extremely serious debate. I look forward very much to the Minister’s response.

Lord Bates: My Lords, this has been an extremely good debate, and in that spirit the actual sequence of events here is worth considering for a moment.

The Government brought forward the Bill currently before the Committee seeking a broad, cross-party

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approach to these matters. I and the Home Secretary are grateful that the Opposition agreed to the semi-fast-tracked procedure and a shortening of the intervals between the various stages so that it could make its way on to the statute book and thus give the security services and the law enforcement agencies the extended powers which they have been seeking. These include the temporary seizure of passports, temporary exclusion orders, the right-to-carry schemes on the air side, the IP addresses that we have been talking about, as well as the Prevent strategy measures. Basically, in approaching this, we have tried to listen to the various bodies that have spoken to us. We have listened to the views of the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, and we have brought forward the legislation which is now before your Lordships’ House.

Going further, we of course recognise that the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act, as was mentioned by several noble Lords, is something that is desperately in need of review. People recognise that. The world has moved on since the year 2000. There is a real fear that the pace of technology, in the phrase of a number of noble Lords in this debate, is outstripping the legislative and security capabilities of our country to keep us safe. That is the context in which we find ourselves.

7 pm

In that respect, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord King for the opportunity that his amendments have afforded the House to reflect again at some length on these very important measures. He does so, having been five years as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland or Secretary of Defence—

Lord King of Bridgwater: Seven—

Lord Bates: His seven years’ experience there, as the noble Lord tells me, and seven years as chairman of the Intelligence and Security Committee add additional weight to what the noble Lord says. We will listen very carefully to what has been said.

There does not seem to be much doubt about the threat that is faced. The threat that we face was very eloquently put in a number of contributions: the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, talked about the evidence used in real convictions; cases of communications data were given by the noble Lord, Lord Evans; and some practical, real-life examples were given by the noble Lord, Lord Blair. There are some very strong arguments that show that there is a need for us to look again at communications data.

Then of course we heard from my noble friend Lord Blencathra and we heard from the committee which reviewed the original legislation. It is important to get on record that elements of the original draft Bill considered by the Joint Committee are contained in this Bill. The IP resolution element was something that was in the draft Bill. It is not something that has been shelved; we felt that we could bring it forward with the necessary safeguards and it was brought forward. The noble Lord’s hesitations and questions very much remain, and we are very much committed to working with him and will seek to address his particular concerns.

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I want to come back to the point that the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, mentioned. I preface these remarks—context is all with this—by saying that, first, we have to get a message out to people that we are talking about, in all of these things, the actual communications data and not the content. The content of the data will rightly require, whether it is an e-mail or a telephone call or an envelope, a warrant in order to be looked into. What we are talking about is tracking the communications data.

In the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act, which went through last year on a fast-tracked basis, Section 7 of that relatively short Act provides that:

“The Secretary of State must appoint the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation to review the operation and regulation of investigatory powers. … The independent reviewer must, in particular, consider … (a) current and future threats to the United Kingdom … (b) the capabilities needed to combat those threats … (c) safeguards to protect privacy … (d) the challenges of changing technologies … (e) issues relating to transparency and oversight … (f) the effectiveness of existing legislation (including its proportionality) and the case for new or amending legislation. … The independent reviewer must, so far as reasonably practicable, complete the review before 1 May 2015”.

If we had such a review from David Anderson before your Lordships’ House at this point, that would be of immense benefit in reaching these judgments. Your Lordships have touched on all the areas on which the independent reviewer has been asked to undertake a review and report. Those are the pertinent issues which have concerned Members who have spoken in this debate.

In the view of the Home Secretary, in the view of the Prime Minister and certainly in my view, the case is made for a communications data Bill to come forward. The noble Lord, Lord Condon, asked us to set out the clear road map as to how we were actually going to proceed. The road map has already begun. It began with the data retention elements in the Data Retention and Investigatory Powers Act last year and it continues in the counterterrorism Bill which is before your Lordships’ House. As a result of that legislation, it will require action once the report from the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation is received. In reality, that will probably mean that, very early in the new Session of Parliament, the House will have to turn its mind to this. Certainly, it is the absolute intent of the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary that it should do so as a matter of urgency.

Some people have said that that will necessarily take a year, or a year and a half, to the period of the sunset clause, but we do not anticipate that it will be necessary to take that long at all. In fact, as far as this counterterrorism Bill is concerned, which is perhaps a wider measure as far as others are concerned, we have managed to move this through, albeit at pace, but it will still have gone through scrutiny in a period of, say, three to four months from its introduction in the other place to its receiving Royal Assent, should your Lordships choose to pass the Bill.

So our position would be one of being deeply appreciative to my noble friend for introducing these amendments and of being particularly grateful for the quality of the debate and the contributions—

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Lord Carlile of Berriew: I apologise for interrupting my noble friend, who is giving a most helpful speech, but can he confirm that David Anderson will be shown a copy of the draft Bill which met the approval of the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, and can we please see a copy?

Lord Bates: I can certainly say in response that a copy of the Bill will be, if it has not already been, made available to him. It would be unthinkable for him to undertake this review into this serious matter without actually having sight of it. So I will certainly put that on record as the government position. As to our ability to share it more widely at this stage, I would be grateful if I could come back to the noble Lord on that when I have an opportunity to check—

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I am sorry to interrupt again, but can my noble friend confirm that, in coming back to us, he will do so in time for us to be able to consider tabling further amendments to this Bill?

Lord Bates: That is a more difficult question, which I am sure is why the noble Lord has pressed me on it. That is not something I feel able to give a commitment on at this stage. However, he is certainly right to put his finger on the point that we have someone there in David Anderson, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation, whom we have charged in statute with a particular responsibility. Of course he should have sight of all information which would be relevant and pertinent to the requirements that we asked him to undertake on our behalf last year.

Baroness Smith of Basildon: I note the Minister’s response to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. Can I ask for an assurance that the Official Opposition will also be given sight of the draft Bill? When we return after the election, whichever Government are in power, they will want to start work on this immediately. It would help if all sides of your Lordships’ House and the House of Commons had access to the detail of the draft Bill.

Lord Bates: The noble Baroness will perhaps understand if I need to just check with people on a slightly higher pay grade whether that is a commitment which I can make. I will certainly look at the issue with regard to the independent reviewer. I will certainly give an answer by Report to the very reasonable question which has been put forward.

A number of questions have been addressed in this debate, but I am conscious that we have spent considerable time on it. I will give an undertaking and say that this is not something that we want in any way to be seen to be distancing ourselves from. We want to put it under active review, and it is under active review. The contributions which have been made in the debate this afternoon on these amendments have afforded us an opportunity to air these issues and to identify where the gaps in agreement are, as well as where the gaps in capability are. We will reflect on those. I may have more to say at Report on that, but in the interim—

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Lord Rooker: I do not want to delay the Minister, but let us not beat about the bush. I do not speak for anybody other than myself, but I listened to every single speech, and those opposed to these amendments seem to be in favour of them being amended in line with the views of the committee that looked at the draft Bill. Will the Minister go back to the Home Secretary after this debate and make the request on behalf of this House for us to see, if not the draft Bill, the amendments to the amendments by Wednesday or Thursday this week, so that this House can make its mind up as to whether or not it wants to debate them and ask the other place? At the end of the day, Parliament has to decide but, as he knows, we are up against a time limit. Will he go back and say to the Home Secretary—these need not be his views, as he can just say he is the Minister with the message—that the House has asked whether it can see this information in time to do something with it?

Baroness Hamwee: My Lords, before my noble friend responds, and without making any comment about whether we should or should not be shown things, I do not think it is appropriate to characterise all the opposition to these amendments as solely being about the way in which they have been put. My noble friends have made points of principle which we should not ignore.

Lord Bates: I also acknowledge the noble Lord’s experience as a former Minister—I am surrounded by former Home Office Ministers and Security Ministers in this debate. The specific point is whether there could be further provisions. The noble Lord says we should not beat around the bush. The issue here is that we are contemplating measures at a fairly late stage in a Bill which contains a number of measures which we desperately want to make sure get on to the statute book. We do not want to risk this Bill and all the provisions in it at present, as we think they are vital. In fact, we consider that they are more vital than the simple addition of these amendments—as desirable as we may see them individually—to the Bill. We do not want to do anything which would jeopardise the process. There has to be a recognition that the other place—I am sure the noble Lord, as a distinguished former Member, would recognise this—would feel that it was being required to look at 21 amendments, running to some 19 pages in a 53-page Bill, on a fast track and with ping-pong between the two Houses on consideration of Lords amendments. It might feel, rightly from a constitutional point of view, that that would be a difficult thing for it to agree to. I am simply airing the issues.

The noble Lord asked specifically whether the draft Bill which has been shown to the noble Lords, Lord Blencathra and Lord Armstrong, can be shared more widely. I have undertaken to the noble Baroness that I will go back to the department and discuss that, and I will certainly come back with an answer as to whether that is possible. However, for the reasons which I have articulated—while recognising and appreciating the spirit in which these amendments have been put forward, which we absolutely share—I ask the noble Lord to consider withdrawing his amendment at this stage.

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7.15 pm

Lord King of Bridgwater: My Lords, I thank the Minister for the way in which he has responded to the long and very important debate that we have had on these amendments. It was a model ministerial reply, for which I am extremely grateful, particularly at the last minute.

Nobody would accuse the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, of ever beating around the bush, and the directness of his approach to the Minister was extremely helpful in elucidating one point, as to whether this would possibly jeopardise the other Bill. A senior and distinguished former holder of the office that the noble Lord, Lord Evans, held said to me that she thought that this amendment was more important than all the measures in the Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill. The Minister has advanced the alternative view—so obviously views can differ on that—but I do not think that we should underestimate why we are doing this Bill at all on a fast track, which is down to the recognition by the Government of the seriousness of the threat that we face. There is no question but that the situation has changed very significantly indeed and we are suddenly aware, in a way that we were not perhaps even six months ago, of the gravity of the threat. Nobody in this House has any excuse for not knowing what “severe” means in the threat level that was introduced by the Government a little while back: an attack is likely, if not necessarily imminent. That is what we are facing up to today.

I thank all noble Lords who contributed to this very important and very difficult debate. I entirely endorse what the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, said. I respect entirely the views of other noble Lords, who are desperate to protect civil liberties, privacy and the ancient traditions of freedom in this country. All that is very important indeed. The Minister referred to my previous experience, and what I do know is that the moment you get a terrorist outrage is when all the wrong things are decided. The pressure comes on that something has to be done, and it is much better to have decided in advance what you are going to do, in a measured way. Otherwise, whatever people say about privacy, the rights of the individual, freedom of speech and all those things, if there is a serious outrage, the criticism then will be: “Where are the security services? Why has Parliament not done its job? Why have they not got what they need to meet the situation?”. It is common ground in the current situation we face, I think, that there is a serious threat, because two things have happened: the threat has increased very significantly and, at the same time, technology has galloped forward. We are very fortunate to have the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, in the House. She illustrated just how grave that threat is from the new technologies. I do not begin to understand the dark cloud, but those are the threats that we may now be facing.

The intervention by the noble Lord, Lord Butler, was extremely helpful. He said one thing which I would rather like to repeat: I think some people have criticised the criticisms of the amendments that we have tabled. I did that myself; I was the first to say that these are the only ones we could table because they are in the draft Bill, but we know that it is within the

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Government’s capability to actually insert improved amendments and clauses which would even pass the scrutiny of my noble friend Lord Blencathra and the members of his committee.

The challenge we all face in this very difficult situation, with this awful evil of terrorism that is imposed on us, is to strike a balance between liberty, security and privacy in a civilised, democratic society. It is not just me saying this; I quoted those distinguished Members of another place as well, Sir Malcolm Rifkind and Jack Straw, who have supported the position we are aiming for from the offices that they held. Of course some people say they are just all the securocrats, but what you will find about securocrats is that sometimes we know a little about it. Sometimes we know what some of the problems are when you try and improve security or some of the problems you get when you fail to improve security.

I think the discussion we have had today has been very helpful and worth while. We have Report coming in a week and we must think very carefully about where we go. One thing I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, who said we could have a report by May, is that of course in May we have the small matter of a general election. This House is rising late in March. I notice the Minister’s optimism that once we come back, depending on who is in government, this could be whistled through. Realistically, if the opportunity that this Bill gives us is missed—and it is completely within the scope of this Bill to make these provisions—we are going to have another year in which we put our nation at risk, when terrorist outrages could be prevented if the security forces and the security agencies had the support they need. There have been a lot of tributes to the security agencies here and in this instance, with the threats that they face, I believe that the balance comes in favour of ensuring these additional abilities to deal with the new technologies which the out-of-date RIPA arrangements do not provide; I believe we need to look at this very seriously. In the mean time I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 79 withdrawn.

Amendments 80 to 99 not moved.

House resumed. Committee to begin again not before 8.20 pm.

Museums: Funding

Question for Short Debate

7.23 pm

Asked by Lord Monks

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the future position of museums in regional areas, in the light of the withdrawal of national funding from 2015-16 onwards.

Lord Monks (Lab): My Lords, I am grateful for this opportunity to bring to the attention of the House the plight of museums in general and the People’s History Museum in Manchester in particular. I need to declare an interest. I am chairman of trustees at the People’s History Museum.

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These are difficult days for museums and for other arts and cultural organisations. One in 10 museums is considering selling parts of its collection and more than half have cut staff. Funding bodies, be they local authorities, national government or universities, are feeling the cold blasts of austerity. In 2010 the Department of Culture, Media and Sport announced that it would identify options for relinquishing control and sponsorship of certain museums which could in future be regarded as the responsibility of local communities. It was the wish of DCMS not to leave any museum on this list high and dry. The People’s History Museum in Manchester was on that list, and we have been feeling high and dry.

Today—quite by coincidence—the DCMS has notified the director of the museum that it will provide the museum with £100,000 for 2015-16. This is a welcome move by DCMS and the Government, and with our fundraising it secures our future for 2015-16—but it still leaves unresolved the following question which is high in our minds. Why is the People’s History Museum the only national museum without secure future income streams? What happens in 2016? Even this year, by the way, we have lost £50,000; currently we receive £150,000 from DCMS. The campaign to establish a proper recognition of the People’s History Museum as a national, not a regional, museum goes on. We have a breathing space but we do not have the answer.

Why is the People’s History Museum important and why should it be of central interest to this House and to Parliament in general? The museum tells the inspiring story of the struggle of working men and women to win the right to vote. Not, I think all noble Lords will agree, a local or a regional issue. Not a Manchester or north-west issue, but one which embraces the whole of the UK. Indeed the need, the duty, the privilege to vote is a vital contemporary message in this era of low turnouts and apathy about politics.

Judging by the number of hits he received on social media, Russell Brand’s statement on “Newsnight” that he does not intend to vote attracted an astonishing amount of support, especially among the young. To combat that cynicism, we should tell the story at every opportunity of how the universal franchise was won. The story—familiar to many in this Chamber—ranges from John Wilkes and Tom Paine, through the abolition of slavery and the Peterloo massacre, the Great Reform Act, the Chartists, the Corn Laws, the emergence of trade unions, Gladstone/Disraeli debates, Labour’s origins, the suffragettes, and the founding of the welfare state. The story is told with wit and flair and attracts increasing numbers of visitors—more than 100,000 last year.

Importantly, the museum also houses the rich archive of the Labour Party; the Conservative Party archive is at the Bodleian, by the way, and the Liberal Democrat one is at the LSE. The Labour archive rather reflects the fact that Labour did things in a more bureaucratic way than either the Conservatives or the Liberal Democrats by writing documents, taking minutes and having collective files rather than individual, personal ones. It was described by Matthew Parris in the Times as a “treasure trove”—and it is. It is all there and there is some terrific material.

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The museum also incorporates the National Museum of Labour History, which started in London, and has a glorious collection of old union banners and memorabilia of all the great struggles of the Labour movement over 150 years. But now the PHM looks set to lose at least some of its national funding this year and all of it after 2016. It is not the only museum being threatened in some way or other because many, as I have mentioned, are having a hard time—but some have found ways to maintain DCMS funding. Some have allied with one of the great London museums; for example, the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester has linked up with the Science Museum Group in Kensington. The Horniman Museum in south-east London—near where I live—has managed to keep a direct line to DCMS funding.

The PHM does not have obvious national partners. We have tried the British Museum and the British Library, but both have problems of their own. We would feel like orphans in the storm were it not for the solid support of the Association of Greater Manchester Authorities, which provides marvellous support—as do the TUC, trade unions and the Heritage Lottery Fund, which has given substantial help with our new and impressive buildings.

To be fair, Ministers have been reflecting on how to help and have now done so to a degree, but the hesitation and the absence of a longer-term settlement are feeding the view that there is an anti-northern bias within the Government when it comes to the arts—and an anti-Labour one, too. Why are we to be left in the cold when others, including the prestigious Bodleian and the LSE, receive regular national help with their funding?

The PHM focuses primarily on the right to vote and trade union history, but it is neither sectarian nor tribal. William Hague, Charles Kennedy and Matthew Parris have opened exhibitions. In the current, successful “Sponsor a Radical Hero” campaign, Margaret Thatcher, controversially, and Winston Churchill and Lloyd George, rather less so, have been sponsored—and they, and others, will be honoured with a plaque on the wall in the museum alongside the name of the sponsor. Other Conservative and Liberal Democrat leaders remain open for sponsorship, so roll up and see me afterwards, and I will fix a good price. I am very grateful to a number of my noble friends for sponsoring their own radical hero. If any other noble friends are interested, perhaps they could see me afterwards.

The right to vote is a precious privilege. As Jack Jones, my predecessor as chairman of the trustees, often said, the right did not fall off the Christmas tree. It had to be fought for, and people died for it. Indeed, when we consider the queues in polling stations in new democracies, such as in post-apartheid South Africa or more recently in Afghanistan and Iraq, there can be no place for cynicism about democracy. I hope that Ministers fully share this view and understand the role of the PHM as part of our country’s role in bringing democracy to the world.

I hope that Members of this House will reflect on the fact that in the march towards universal suffrage our predecessors were usually the bad guys huddled on the wrong side of the battle, defending privilege

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and unsatisfactory status quos. They fought long and hard against the abolition of slavery, for rotten boroughs and to exclude the rising middle classes of the new industrial cities. Then they were against democratic rights for working men and then women. Tonight there is a chance for some collective redemption, a chance to join the right side of history for a change, by sending a strong message that the story of the British road to democracy as told by the People’s History Museum—a national museum in Manchester, not a Manchester museum—its collections and its messages should be honoured and supported. I urge the House to send that message.

7.33 pm

Viscount Eccles (Con): My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for introducing this debate. I have three minutes, and I will speak about the Bowes Museum, another museum in the north. It is among the two or three largest regional museums in the country. It is acknowledged in James Stourton’s definitive book as holding extensive collections of the finest quality. It is in Barnard Castle, County Durham. Its iconic mechanical swan is its mascot. I was for nine years chairman of the trustees. Now I am a fundraiser and donor, so these words are my personal views, not the museum’s.

Failing finances have caused changes in governance. The most recent was 17 years ago, when County Durham was trustee and manager. The county judged that it was unfair to expect it to finance so large a museum. As a result, the present private trust was set up, with County Durham as the core funder providing 25% of revenue expenditure. All went well for 10 years. The enormous building was repaired, much was done to the collections, and an excellent café and shop were established. The number of visitors rose from 65,000 to 120,000. We were looking forward to an exciting future. Unfortunately, things changed in 2010. County Durham, again judging that its commitment to the Bowes was too great a burden, began to lower its core grant year by year. It is now down from 25% to 15% of a reasonable budget. Anything less than £2.5 million will leave the Bowes operating far below its potential; 25% of £2.5 million is more than £600,000, whereas the museum expects less than £400,000 this year.

Meanwhile, the Bowes has increased its income and raised money from charitable trusts and from Arts Council-sponsored programmes. It is a Catalyst participant and has crowdfunded through Kickstarter and Art Happens. None of this has cured the shortage of curators. Nothing much can be done without curators. Unless there is positive action the Bowes will become becalmed, and the threat of a change in governance will re-emerge. The outcome is likely to be a return to the county. Nobody wants that. The DCMS could accept that the Bowes be nationally supported. A grant of £600,000 a year—which is very modest in relation to other DCMS obligations—would transform the position. It has always been difficult to see why the DCMS has not tackled the question, “Is it reasonable to expect County Durham to be the sole core funder of the Bowes?”. This question is urgent and needs an answer. I trust that my noble friend will agree that discussions and action are needed.

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7.37 pm

Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab): My Lords, I am exceedingly grateful to my noble friend Lord Monks for raising this issue. I rise for two reasons. First, I had the privilege of having a tour of the People’s History Museum and I was exceedingly impressed by the contribution that it makes. It made me reflect upon the situation that we find ourselves in in London. We are so privileged to live in London. We have access to some of the finest museums in the world, and we have free access to them. That is a great privilege. It certainly contributed to some of my autodidactic education, when I visited the British Museum on a regular basis and a number of the national galleries. The plea that is being made is very reasonable.

Secondly, my noble friend made the point that the People’s History Museum focuses on national issues: the right to vote, universal suffrage and the history of the Labour movement. The Government have said that they recognise the importance of strengthening the regions. In the other place, the Chancellor talked about extending rail networks in the north. In my view, this is just as important an issue in relation to the well-being of people who live in the north-west as in relation to its national contribution. I hope that the Minister will take that point into account when he replies. How do we recognise the cultural contribution that regional museums make and the importance of them engaging with local schools and colleges, which the People’s History Museum does? How important do we rate that in ensuring that the museum has a viable future?

7.39 pm

Lord Lennie (Lab): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Monks, for securing this important short debate. I come at it from two perspectives. My base and my home are in the north-east of England, the location of many of Britain’s finest museums, Bowes being just one among a number, all of which are in some difficulty or other due to the current funding position. Secondly, I am the former deputy general secretary of the Labour Party. As noble Lords heard from the noble Lord, Lord Monks, earlier, the party’s comprehensive archive is located there—and, if for no other reason, the People’s History Museum is definitely worth a visit from noble Lords.

The analysis of the current funding of museums leads to a number of common themes and threads. First, on all museums and galleries there is a significantly increased force of self-reliance on income generation. That is not necessarily a bad thing in itself; all manner and means of securing additional income are important. However, it is not in any way going to substitute from the core funding of such institutions. Secondly, there is a massive increase in dependence on benefactors. To follow up the point about the privileged position referred to earlier, London benefits—in proportion about 70% to 30% in terms of benefactor income to galleries and museums compared to the rest of the country. Thirdly, there is an erosion of lottery funding, which is seeping into core funding outside of its added value original concept, its purpose being not to substitute core funding but to supplement and add value in all aspects of

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cultural life across Britain. Fourthly, there is a widening gap between the imbalances of funding available to and in London and in the rest of the country.

Since the end of the 20th century, lottery funding has benefited Londoners by about £142 per head compared with about £45 outside London. Additionally, local authorities outside London have provided 32% additional income to arts funding grants, as opposed to the 6% added additionally within London. The overall figure per capita inside London is about £65 per head of arts funding, compared to £5 per head across the rest of the UK. Those imbalances grow year on year. Then, of course, there are additional hidden costs and subsidies to cultural life in London, such as the cost of travel to London, the use of hotels, restaurants and other facilities when people increasingly visit London as opposed to the rest of the country—and the imbalance is further compounded.

Austerity is biting and will continue to bite year on year, particularly outside London, which will have a worsening consequence for the regions of England year on year. The imbalance is evident and the Government need to examine it and come up with a plan for action as to how they will go about restoring the balance back to the rest of the country compared to London. As a last resort, museums and galleries have been forced to sell off precious items, which should be stopped through government action.

7.43 pm

Lord Addington (LD): My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Monks, surprised me in his opening remarks by describing the Liberal Democrats as not being bureaucratic. That is something that I have never heard them accused of before, although the Liberal Party may have been able to stand up for itself—but I thank him for that.

When the noble Lord talks of the importance of regional museums, or museums outside the centre of London—the first megacity, and the one that dominates our transport structure, which things go in and out of, making it easier than actually travelling across the country—he is, of course, right. There are good reasons for this historically, and we should be trying to change it where we can. However, we are where we are, and I for one am not going to suggest that the National History Museum is moved. I do not think that many other people would either. Indeed, if the noble Lord would care to try it, I would quite like to watch, because it would be a pretty good show. But the regional structure should be seen as underpinning the rest of the museum service—the creation of local history and local knowledge, no matter where that national museum is based. This is a very important resource, and we must try to make sure that it feeds in.

I am sure that in the People’s History Museum there is some very interesting stuff about agricultural workers and their attitude towards the vote, different from workers in earlier unionisation—and how that would tie into different practices in regional museums in my part of the world, Norfolk. There would be a different structure and dynamic there; all of them are required to make the whole work properly. So I suggest to my noble friend that it is vital that the Government take this on board and look at it as a whole.

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Let us be perfectly honest. When I looked at funding, I was astounded at the number of potential sources. There are two lottery funds, five different ones from Europe that I found—I gave up after that. Then there is the National Trust and there are local authorities. I could go on for quite a while on this, but there are lots of them. How on earth can a smaller museum under a stressed bureaucracy and a stressed service, looking after curators, get the best out of these streams? It is not surprising that those at the centre with better resources will get more. What steps are being taken to make sure that all local museums have access to the national funding available for museums? That is something that goes across parties and Governments—that with these divergent streams, the best should get more.

I have talked about sport on many occasions. We discovered in the early stages of the lottery that tennis clubs did rather better than football clubs for resources. If you have the people there and the resources to fill out the forms, you will do well. Please can we bring this together and look to get the best out of it? The noble Lord has put his finger on a problem that has been there for a long time.

7.47 pm

Lord Sawyer (Lab): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Monks, for initiating this debate. I have pleasure in supporting him.

The issue around the People’s History Museum is essentially a problem of definition, affecting the level of funding. Because it is said that it is not national, its funding is reduced. That seems a bizarre decision to me, quite frankly. How can a museum that portrays the history of the people of a nation not be a national museum? I would like to hear more on that from the Government Front Bench. Some say that the funding is affected because it is in the north. Again, I would like to see the Government deal with that; I cannot believe that it can be true.

This museum is rather special—it talks about the people’s past. It is a young museum, as the noble Lord, Lord Young, said, and a vigorous museum. It is an exciting museum because it tells the story of the people’s history—the struggles in the past of the Chartists and the Suffragettes, and the forming of the trade unions—in a vibrant and accessible way, which is how the story should be told. And it is also, believe it or not, a new story. The history is from the past, but the story is new, because in the past these stories of ordinary people had been hidden from history. Even in my days at school, they were pushed to the margins by kings and queens and other choices made by the ruling class. It is the story of those who have made, built, served, tilled and went to wars, and it is a story that must be told continuously through future generations.

Most interestingly, the story that the museum tells mirrors the story of the museum itself. As my noble friend Lord Monks, said, the museum has only just been born. It was only in the 1970s that I remember personally—as I know the noble Lord, Lord Monks, also can—trade union people in the East End of London going around collecting banners, leaflets and other artefacts to try to build a museum for a history that we had almost lost, because nobody thought

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that it was important enough to preserve. So those people did us a great service when they put that museum together, and it has gone from strength to strength.

The noble Lord, Lord Monks touched on another important theme—namely, that the history of the parties opposite have their histories safe and secure in Oxford and London. I have no problem with that. The party directly opposite opposed most of the advances that are celebrated in the People’s History Museum. I can forgive it for that. But with its past all nicely and warmly secured in Oxford and in London, would it not be nice, as my noble friend Lord Monks said, to show some generosity to the working classes and make sure that our museum that we want to celebrate and look forward to having a great future has the same kind of support?

7.50 pm

Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab): My Lords, I join others in thanking and congratulating my noble friend Lord Monks on bringing this debate to the House. The People’s History Museum is a fantastic national and international museum—you can see that when you visit it. Having said that, as a fellow Mancunian, I am very pleased that it is located in Manchester and the north-west, and I think that my noble friend is probably also pleased about that.

At the time that the funding of the People’s History Museum changed, I was the chair of the National Coal Mining Museum for England, which was affected by the same regulations. I make this my first point as I think that it is the source of the difficulties experienced by the People’s History Museum. In 2010, the Government decided that some of national museums—those that were not covered by an original statute—would be funded in a different way. I think that my noble friend Lord Monks described it as the DCMS relinquishing control and sponsorship. If my memory serves me right, every single one of the affected museums was a national museum outside London. The national museums in London were not affected by this provision.

My museum was affected in the same way. It meant that an awful lot of time and effort had to be put into securing a partnership in order to survive. The Coal Mining Museum already had a partnership with the Science Museum. However, the People’s History Museum, which did not have that alignment, has experienced a lot of difficulty. Even in our case, the time, effort, resource and the legal work involved in making that new relationship work was not worth the effort. To tell the truth, the reason it was done was to reduce the number of quangos, because that was the government commitment at the time of the general election. That is not a great episode in the reputational history of the DCMS.

I will make two further brief points. Regional museums, or museums in the regions—whichever way you wish to look at it—are very important. We are very proud of our national museums, which are some of the best in the world, but we now worry about the gap between the north and the south and between the regions and the capital. This is one example of where we have not quite got that right. Regional museums are important

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not just because they tell a story but because they are part of the cultural fabric of their cities, towns and villages, which helps regeneration, promotes social and cultural cohesion and helps give us a better education service.

Although I applaud the work that the Arts Council has done since it took on responsibility for museums, if you look at the ways that museums now seek funding, for example through grants, you will see that the regions find it more difficult than London. Philanthropy is not as easy if you are a regional museum, and money from local authorities is not as available as it used to be. For all those reasons, regional museums are having a tough time. I am delighted to draw that to the House’s attention in this debate.

7.53 pm

Lord Cormack (Con): The noble Baroness is entirely right: local museums, as I prefer to call them, reinforce a sense of identity and community. I am very sorry that I have not been to the People’s History Museum, but doubtless I can put that right. Naturally, I thank the noble Lord for introducing the debate and wish him every success in maintaining what is clearly a very important national asset.

My love of history, and my inspiration for entering politics, came from visiting the Wilberforce House Museum in Hull as a very young boy—William Wilberforce is my parliamentary hero—and seeing what motivated him to begin his great campaign for the abolition of the slave trade and, later, of slavery. That gave me a sense of local pride, as well as knowledge and determination. Now I have the great pleasure of living in Lincoln—my native county is Lincolnshire—which has two very splendid museums: The Collection, which tells the story of Lincolnshire from the Romans and, indeed, before; and the Usher Gallery, which was given by a local benefactor in the first part of the last century. It was there that I first acquired my love of art when I saw the wonderful collection of watercolours by Peter De Wint, who did so much painting in Lincolnshire.

Now, as chairman of the Historic Lincoln Trust, I see another value of the local museum. Many people do not have the chance to come to London. I paid my first visit to a London museum when I was about 18. Local museums can often borrow items of great importance from national museums and galleries. This was seen to splendid effect last year when the Lindisfarne Gospels went to Durham.

This year in Lincoln, as part of our Magna Carta celebrations, we are amassing a wonderful collection from great national and local collections which will tell the story of some of the great figures in Lincolnshire’s history. It will contain marvellous topographical views and treasures from Lincolnshire houses and churches. If local museums did not exist, one could not stage that sort of exhibition.

I make a simple plea to my noble friend who will wind up the debate. No country can begin to call itself civilised if it does not maintain its great historic buildings and sustain its local museums and collections. That, I hope, is something on which we can all agree, wherever

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in the House we sit. I end by again wishing the noble Lord, Lord Monks, success with a museum which I still hope to visit.

7.56 pm

Lord Bassam of Brighton (Lab): My Lords, like other noble Lords, I am grateful to my friend Lord Monks for securing this debate on the future of regional museums. It gives me the opportunity to join him in making a plea to the Chancellor and the DCMS to revisit the coalition Government’s 2010 decision to “relinquish control and sponsorship”—or, in non-weasel words, “cut funding”—for non-national museums, as they see it.

Why? Because the policy has ended up directly impacting on just one institution—the Manchester-based People’s History Museum. The other six affected institutions continue to receive public funds, whether directly or indirectly. On the face of it, the change in “sponsorship” arrangements looks incredibly vindictive. What is it about the People’s History Museum that Ministers dislike? Is it because of the museum’s focus on working people’s campaigns for rights in the workplace, equal and fair pay and the right to vote? If that is the case, I cannot think of a worse time to do this, with 100 days to go until the general election—a time when issues such as zero-hours contracts, migrant worker exploitation and the non-registration of poorer voters are all stark reminders that stories of working people’s struggles are as relevant now as they ever were.

The People’s History Museum is not just culturally important, it is economically important and viable. It is an incredibly good value-for-money investment. It raises grants locally, generates commercial sponsorship and donations and gets support from Greater Manchester’s local authorities. Taking away 15% of its budget in one go, when interest and visitor numbers are rising by 10% plus a year, would be a travesty.

It is often said that all history, like politics, is local. We should also celebrate, when and where we can, the work of small local and regional museums. Therefore, I will spend a moment or two reminding colleagues of such institutions and the value they bring to learning and understanding, and regeneration. Back in 1990, as Labour’s leader in Brighton, I inherited a shambolic mess of a seafront, with little vision or idea of its place in what was then sometimes seen as a declining seaside town. That year, as leader of the council, I persuaded a socialist visionary, Andy Durr, to become a councillor once again. He had a plan to turn our seafront around with a mix of public and private money.

Central to this was a “people’s history” of the work and struggles of the local fishing community and its contribution to our city by the sea. That initiative, still developing 20 years on, was clever. Brighton now has a vibrant seafront cultural quarter populated by arts and artisans, quality seafood outlets, galleries, bars and 24-hour basketball. Our city was regenerated and part of its heritage restored—a people’s history rediscovered, reinvented and put to work.

History does not record whether the current Chancellor ever met Andy Durr when he was mayor, but if Mr Osborne had done so he would have learnt the value of investing in living heritage. Just like the

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People’s History Museum, Brighton’s Fishing Museum is one piece in a larger national jigsaw. Losing one part of that puzzle is not just frustrating; it means that the whole picture misses out and is never quite complete. Removing support from the People’s History Museum will be a loss not only to Manchester and the Labour movement but to our national story.

8 pm

Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab): My Lords, I have a proposal: move the DCMS to Manchester. Some parts of the BBC are up there, it is not the end of the world and the quality of life for X amount of income is higher than it is for many people in London.

I should like to follow a remark of my noble friend Lord Sawyer. There is semantic confusion about the word “regional”, as if something cannot be national if it is in a region. People describe this debate as being about regional museums. I put a question to the Minister: apart from moving the DCMS to Manchester, does he agree that it is nonsense to say that a museum cannot be a national museum if it is in Manchester or anywhere other than London?

I labour this point because the funding criteria are dangerously close to being taken into this black hole of semantic confusion. Those criteria are to do with national museums. Does the Minister think that the criteria are being correctly applied by the DCMS, or is it because senior DCMS officialdom and Ministers are London-oriented and so cannot see that the criteria are being misapplied? The criteria are that if something is not national it receives a different funding flow, yet “national” can equal Manchester.

My noble friend Lord Monks is certainly not just pressing a special case, although I totally identify with it. I pick up a remark by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for whom I have the highest admiration; he was for many years chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Arts and Heritage Group, of which I am proud to be vice-chairman. Now the noble Lord, Lord Crathorne, who lives in Yorkshire, is the chairman. We have the immense privilege of going on visits all around London. It can, of course, be said that the British Museum is not just a national museum but a world museum. London has a total quasi-monopoly of all the greatest national museums, yet even now the number of people living in London is not exactly 80% of the population of the United Kingdom.

I close by quoting Melvyn Bragg—the noble Lord, Lord Bragg—who noted in a broadcast that capital cities should irrigate rather than drain. This is the issue that we have reached in the broader context in this country at the moment: an imbalance in Britain. “Rebalancing our cultural capital” is not a play on words; it means moving the capital.

8.04 pm

Lord Liddle (Lab): My Lords, I support my noble friend Lord Monks, and very much welcome his initiative in having this debate on the role of regional museums and his passionate support for the People’s History Museum.

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However, I would like to focus on a slightly different issue—not on regional museums such as the People’s History Museum, which ought to be funded nationally, but on the plight of local museums and galleries. The one that is very close to my own heart is the Tullie House Museum and Art Gallery in Carlisle, where I was brought up.

When I was a young lad, the museum was a haven of peace and a window on a much wider world, and it played a very important part in my growing up. Since then, it has greatly expanded and become a wonderful modern museum of border history, Roman history and Carlisle’s history as a railway city. It also has a lot of very good 19th-century art, including some Pre-Raphaelites, and a very good natural history section.

But the financial situation that the museum faces is extremely serious. It is supported by Carlisle City Council, and in 2010 Carlisle was able to afford to give the museum £1.2 million. Under the current financial plan, that support will fall to £750,000 next year, and if the pressure on local authorities gets even more serious, it could fall further. I do not see any way in which a local museum and gallery like Tullie House can survive without municipal support; there simply is no alternative. Tullie House was built in the days when there were wealthy people in Carlisle such as mill owners and factory owners who were able to endow the museum. That is no longer the case in our hollowed-out regional economy, I am afraid. Public support is therefore absolutely essential.

Could I make three quick suggestions? First, the Arts Council must prioritise much more out-of-London galleries and museums. For the big national institutions in London, it is not as though the streets are paved with gold, but there is much more opportunity for obtaining sponsorship. Secondly, the national institutions should support local galleries much more in lending them artefacts and exhibits so that they can have popular exhibitions. Thirdly, the role of local culture and museums in economic development should be recognised in promoting tourism, and in the budgets that are available for economic development, priority should be given to promoting cultural activities in the regions.

8.08 pm

Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con): My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Monks, for securing this debate—and what an interesting debate it has been. I am sure that your Lordships will understand that I very much regret the indisposition of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, and we very much look forward to his early return.

There are an estimated 2,500 museums in the United Kingdom: independent museums owned by registered charities and other independent bodies; local authority museums, owned by town, parish, city, or county councils; university museums; regional museums; and national museums. The DCMS directly sponsors 16 museums and galleries, 13 of which are national museums—the presence of which spans the country. I know that the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, and the noble Lords, Lord Lennie and Lord

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Lea of Crondall, took us all to task about the importance of museums outside London. I thought it was worth saying that National Museums Liverpool represents a wide range of cultural interest in the area. The Royal Armouries, the Tate, the Natural History Museum and the Science Museum all have sites outside London. The Royal Armouries has sites in Leeds and Portsmouth, the Tate has galleries in Cornwall and Liverpool, and the Natural History Museum has a collection in Tring. In total, DCMS has funded £2 billion for the 15 museums and the British Library over the life of this Parliament.

In addition, the Government also provide funding to museums in the regions through the Arts Council, which is the development organisation for English regional museums, responsible for helping to support museums across the country. The Arts Council directly funds 16 significant regional museums, which are considered to be major partners. These act as examples of best practice in management and curation of collections, and play an important leadership role through partnerships with other museums and galleries in their regions. In total, the Arts Council has funded £200 million in grant in aid towards support of its major partner museums over the life of this Parliament. Partners include the York Museums Trust, Manchester City Galleries and the Penlee House Gallery and Museum in Cornwall.

My noble friend Lord Eccles spoke of the Bowes Museum. I was interested to see that the two museums in County Durham, the Bowes Museum and the Beamish Museum, will jointly receive £2,180,748 over the period 2015-18, for instance. In addition to the major partners it funds, the Arts Council also administers a variety of other grants, including a museum resilience fund worth £10 million in 2015-16. This aims to support a step change for the sector by enabling regional museums to become more sustainable and resilient businesses, focusing on development opportunities across the sector and recognising that excellence and the potential for excellence can be found in museums of all sizes.

A number of noble Lords raised the hugely important issue of benefactors and philanthropy. I absolutely take the point that some London museums have been extremely successful; we want to ensure that this success is replicated across the country. The Arts Council takes its responsibility for supporting museums across the country extremely seriously and balances funding across the whole country. That is very important. A number of noble Lords talked about a lack of balance. All I am hearing at the briefings I get from the Arts Council is that it is absolutely clear about the need to ensure that the regions are well supported. We should also remember the huge contribution made by the Heritage Lottery Fund to support museums and galleries through capital projects and through their various funding streams, which support skills development and acquisitions.

The noble Lord, Lord Monks, rightly mentioned the museum that he has worked so tirelessly for. The fund recently awarded £95,000 of funding to the People’s History Museum, through its Collecting Cultures programme, to enable the museum to take forward its

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Voting for Change project, focusing on the movements and campaigns for the franchise. Last December, Museums Sheffield successfully applied to the Heritage Lottery Fund for £697,000 to support Weston Park museum’s A Bright Future project. The Government also provide support to small capital projects in many museums through their partnership with the Wolfson Foundation. Most of the funding from that partnership has been distributed outside London.

The Government’s review of non-departmental public bodies in 2010 examined a number of government-funded museums and their continued direct funding from government. As a result of this, it was decided that five museums would cease to be funded directly by DCMS. Of these, the funding responsibility for three was transferred; the Museum of Science and Industry was transferred to the Science Museum Group, and the noble Baroness, Lady Morris of Yardley, rightly mentioned what I think I can call her museum, the National Coal Mining Museum, which also now receives funding from the Science Museum Group. The Tyne and Wear Archives and Museum had its government funding channelled through the Arts Council, as it already received Arts Council funding as a major partner museum. All these museums have continued to thrive, bringing in increasing number of visitors.

It was decided, as a number of noble Lords have said, that DCMS should relinquish sponsorship of the Design Museum and the People’s History Museum. The Design Museum is now well advanced in its plans to relocate to the former Commonwealth Institute building in Kensington in order to expand its activities, a move that it will complete in 2016. Many noble Lords have spoken tonight about the People’s History Museum. The Government recognise the People’s History Museum and many other museums as important custodians in caring for their collections and encouraging access to, and awareness of, many aspects of our cultural and social history on which the objects, archives and artworks can help throw a light. I thought that the noble Lord, Lord Sawyer, spoke extremely powerfully about these issues.

The People’s History Museum has been identified by its designated status as an outstanding collection, as have around 130 other collections across the country. It has a great deal to offer both at national and local level, and this is recognised by its strong public support. I commend the museum for its proactive approach to managing its situation. I note that government funding has never been the primary source of funding for the People’s History Museum; indeed, it is a museum that it is very successful in its own right at working with other agencies to access funding sources. I noted what the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, said about political motivation. From the briefings I have seen I do not think that the museum’s director feels that that is the motivation. That ought to be put on record.

This debate is extraordinarily timely: the department has engaged with the People’s History Museum and the Arts Council over the museum’s future arrangements. I am pleased to confirm announcements that the department will make £100,000 available for the People’s History Museum for 2015-16. I am grateful to the

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noble Lord, Lord Monks, for expressing his welcome for that. It will be channelled through the Arts Council and is intended to help the museum as it moves towards a new and sustainable model of funding.

I would be the first to accept that difficult decisions have to be made. Indeed, many museum services will, of necessity, be considering how best to respond to these challenges through efficiencies and innovative and creative ideas. There is clearly an opportunity to encourage the development of philanthropic funding and to build a healthier and more diverse funding model for museums. My noble friend Lord Eccles referred to what the Bowes Museum has been doing. I think the noble Lord, Lord Lennie, referred to the need to ensure that this mix of funding can be replicated across the country, not just in London.

Our national collections do not operate in a vacuum from the rest of the sector. They lead and are partners in hundreds of collaborative projects with museums, heritage and community organisations and educational establishments across the country. The sector is committed to increasing the wealth of loans across the county. The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, and my noble friend Lord Cormack in particular referred to that. I was particularly struck by what the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, said about Carlisle and what my noble friend said about Hull and how important museums are to young people. The local museum is very often the beginning of a very long adventure and enjoyment. Many of these partnerships are based on the loan of objects, such as the Great Bed of Ware going from the V&A to Ware Museum. There was a huge increase in the numbers that visited Ware Museum because of that. There are many other examples.

There is also a focus on the sharing of skills, expertise, education and learning, and working with communities. Participation with museums can bring many benefits to individuals and communities, including as learning resources. The noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green, referred to schools, but schools and health services can all benefit from their relationships with their local museum. National Museums Liverpool has recently been at the forefront of this with its House of Memories project, which provides training to carers of people living with dementia.

Museums and their contents are at the heart of our culture and heritage. They are extremely important to the nation. Not only our regional museums, which I mention specifically because that phrase was in the title of the debate, but all museums have such an important role to play. Regional museums provide a world-class cultural service to communities around the country, and, in partnership with national and Arts Council major partner museums, there is a great future for them. Much of the main thrust of the debate, which was so ably led by the noble Lord, Lord Monks, was about the People’s History Museum, but I wish all the museums well. These are challenging times, but, having met a number of people from the sector, I think they are extraordinarily creative and able. We are extremely lucky to have such capable people running our museums.

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Counter-Terrorism and Security Bill

Committee (2nd Day) (Continued)

8.20 pm

Clause 18: Authority-to-carry schemes

Amendment 100

Moved by Lord Rosser

100: Clause 18, page 11, line 26, at end insert—

“(1A) An “authority-to-carry scheme” made by the Secretary of State shall be set out in regulations.

(1B) Regulations under this section are to be made by statutory instrument, and shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.”

Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, Clause 18 enables the Secretary of State to make schemes requiring a carrier to seek authority from the Secretary of State to carry persons on aircraft, ships or trains that are arriving or expected to arrive in the United Kingdom or leaving or expected to leave the UK. The purpose of the amendment is to provide for an authority-to-carry scheme made by the Secretary of State to be set out in regulations, subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.

The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee considered that Clause 18 constituted,

“a significant delegation of powers to the Secretary of State, since authority-to-carry schemes will have the effect of regulating the persons who may lawfully be transported by a carrier to and from the UK”.

The Home Office has stated that authority-to-carry schemes are not subject to parliamentary scrutiny because,

“there will be provision on the face of the Bill providing guidance as to the circumstances in which a class of passenger may be specified for the purpose of the scheme”.

No doubt the Minister will indicate in his response where this guidance appears on the face of the Bill and whether the Government feel that this represents sufficient guidance on how and in what circumstances the powers should be used. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee said that, unless the Home Office provided more compelling evidence on why the power to make schemes should not be scrutinised by Parliament, the Bill should be amended so that the powers are exercisable by statutory instrument.

This amendment gives the Government the opportunity to say rather more about the need for these powers and why they consider that they should not be scrutinised by Parliament. There are already similar statutory provisions in existence that apply only inbound to the United Kingdom, as I understand it. Will the Minister provide some information on how these existing powers have been used, how frequently they have been deployed, in respect of how many people, what nationalities and classes or categories have been affected and from which locations they have been travelling to the United Kingdom? Will the Minister also set out the extent to which the provisions in Clause 18 are an extension of the existing arrangements—in other words, exactly what are the additions in Clause 18 to what we have already?

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I am sure that the Government will be more than aware of concerns that have been expressed that the provisions in the Bill could be used to exclude passengers or crew of particular nationalities or particular classes or categories, and that if these powers are not used in a sensible and proportionate manner they could enhance the likelihood of radicalisation, particularly among nationalities or classes or categories affected, who might come to the conclusion that they were being picked on and singled out, with a resultant potential increase in feelings of alienation and a potential decrease in the desire to provide crucial co-operation.

It would be helpful if the Minister could respond to that point and the others that I have made. This probing amendment gives the Government the opportunity to place on record how and when, and in respect of whom, they intend the powers in Clause 18 to be used and why they consider them necessary, as well as the opportunity to respond to the point on parliamentary scrutiny made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I beg to move.

Baroness Hamwee (LD): My Lords, to pick up the noble Lord’s penultimate point, Clause 18 says in terms that the scheme must specify various classes in subsection (2).

I have tabled Amendments 101 and 102 in this group. The first is narrower than the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, but would require regulations to encompass the requirements of a scheme whose breach may attract the imposition of a penalty. We are told that there will be regulations imposing penalties. It seems to me that the regulations for the underlying requirement, at the very least, ought to be within the regulations before one and that it is not appropriate for there to be regulations imposing penalties if the requirements themselves are not subject to the same sort of parliamentary process.

My second amendment would provide, not in detail, a more structured procedure than is suggested by subsection (4): the opportunity to object to a proposed penalty. It suggests that a reference to an appeal would be more appropriate. If there are to be penalties there should be arrangements for challenging them and possibly even for third party or perhaps judicial determination—but whatever there is, the rather loose terminology of “object to” is inadequate.

Lord Ahmed (Non-Afl): My Lords, I apologise to the House that I was unable to speak at Second Reading. I have a couple of points on Amendments 100, 101 and the rest of the group. Under the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (Authority to Carry) Regulations 2012, the Government have the powers to refuse entry to an individual. It is not clear why classes of passengers are targeted in this Bill. Will a whole group of people be covered under the new legislation? I say that because I have some experience. When I was travelling from Birmingham Airport last year, the immigration officers were stopping, under the Immigration Rules, the entire PIA flight to Islamabad—including myself. I was questioned about where I was going and whether I was carrying any money while I was going to Pakistan.

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I fear that, without scrutiny by Parliament, these extra powers could be used against a group of people of a certain ethnicity. I fear that the perception of the British Pakistani community, Pakistan International Airlines and other airline carriers which occasionally carry people who could be suspected under the Terrorism Act will mean that entire families travelling on these airlines could be affected. Will the powers be used proportionately and will they be targeted? The Government already have powers to impose penalties on airlines for carrying certain passengers or to stop passengers getting on to flights. Therefore, I support the amendment and seek more clarification.

8.30 pm

Lord Ashton of Hyde (Con): My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to address the points raised in relation to Part 4 of the Bill, including the amendments in the names of my noble friends and that tabled by Her Majesty’s Opposition. Perhaps I may start with the questions asked by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser.

The noble Lord asked what new power this provision has that the current legislation does not. The Bill will make provision for a new authority-to-carry scheme or schemes for passengers arriving or expected to arrive in the UK or departing or expected to depart from the UK. The current statutory arrangements apply inbound to the UK only. The Bill will also extend the operation of authority-to-carry schemes to a broader range of individuals, including British nationals, who pose a terrorist or terrorism-related threat to the UK.

The noble Lord also asked how many people will be affected by this. We do not comment on specific numbers. However, since the introduction of the security and travel bans authority-to-carry scheme 2012, we have stopped the travel of a small number of people whom we have judged may pose a terrorist or terrorism-related threat to the UK.

I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, about perception and the fact that these authority-to-carry schemes have to be used sensitively. I hope that it helps that so far they have been used only in relation to a small number of people, but I take his point. I hope that my answer later will go some way to reassure him.

The noble Lords, Lord Rosser and Lord Ahmed, asked about the classes of individuals whom carriers are liable to be refused authority to carry. I will take individuals travelling to the UK under the new scheme. They include individuals who are assessed by the Secretary of State as posing a direct threat to the security of aircraft; individuals who are subject to a temporary exclusion order, which we have talked about previously in our debates on the Bill; EEA nationals and accompanying/joining third-country national family members of EEA nationals who are the subject of an exclusion or deportation order under the immigration regulations; third-country nationals who have been, or are in the process of being, excluded from the UK under the Immigration Rules; nationals who are the subject of a deportation order; nationals who have been or would be refused a visa; and individuals otherwise inadmissible to the UK, including those

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seeking to travel using invalid travel documents. I hope that that goes some way to show that the powers are targeted specifically and that they are not intended to cover huge swathes of people.

Amendment 100 tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and Amendment 101 tabled by my noble friends both seek to achieve the same effect: more direct parliamentary scrutiny of an authority-to-carry scheme made under Clause 18. Amendment 100 would require a scheme to be set out in regulations and approved by Parliament subject to a negative resolution but would make the scheme and the regulations to enforce it subject to a separate and different parliamentary process. Amendment 101 would require that draft affirmative regulations, laid before Parliament to impose penalties for breaching a scheme made under Clause 18, should include the requirements of that scheme.

The approach taken in the Bill mirrors that in Section 124 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 under which the current scheme and its regulations were made in 2012. The Government’s policy intention is that any new authority-to-carry scheme, or any amendment to an existing scheme, will be laid in Parliament with draft affirmative regulations which refer to the new or amended scheme. I recognise the concern noble Lords might have that, as drafted, there is only indirect scrutiny of an authority-to-carry scheme itself. The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee expressed a similar concern in its report, as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, mentioned. The Government are at present considering the report of the committee and we would like to reflect on the concerns of noble Lords so that we can return to this issue at Report. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw Amendment 100 and that my noble friend will not press Amendment 101.

Amendment 102, tabled by my noble friends, would require that regulations imposing penalties for breaching an authority-to-carry scheme must provide for a carrier to be able to appeal a penalty. The legislation already provides that the regulations may allow for an appeal, but the amendment would leave out the provision that the regulations must provide for a carrier first to be given an opportunity to object to the penalty. The approach we are proposing in the Bill mirrors that taken in the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 (Authority to Carry) Regulations 2012, under which any breach of the current authority-to-carry scheme would be penalised. Where a penalty is imposed, the carrier must have the opportunity to appeal. If the penalty is reduced, remains unaltered or is increased, the carrier has the right to proceed to appeal. However, our intention is that the carrier must object before they can appeal. There is no question that a carrier that objects to a proposed penalty for breaching an authority-to-carry scheme will have the right to a judicial appeal. That will be set out in the regulations, subject to affirmative resolution. In the light of those assurances, I invite my noble friend not to press the amendment.

Finally, government Amendments 120 and 121 amend Clause 42 of the Bill so as to bring the aviation security powers in Part 2 of Schedule 2 into force on

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Royal Assent rather than at a later date by commencement order. Those powers in paragraphs 9 to 11 of Schedule 2 strengthen and enhance the ability of the Secretary of State to issue security directions to airlines flying into the UK and to create, through regulations, a related civil penalty regime for airlines that fail to comply. In doing so, this amendment brings the implementation of these powers into line with those in Part 1 of Schedule 2, covering passenger, crew and service information, which would already come into force on Royal Assent. The threat to aviation from certain terrorist groups is well documented and continues to evolve. We already work closely with foreign Governments and airlines, as well as UK operators, to make sure that the necessary security measures are in place and are being effectively implemented, but these measures will enhance our ability to do that.

I hope your Lordships will therefore agree that it is right and sensible to have these strengthened and clarified powers available at the earliest opportunity. Accordingly, I invite your Lordships to support these amendments.

Baroness Hamwee (LD): I am left a little puzzled as to why there should be an opportunity to object before an appeal. I can see that that would be to the benefit of the Secretary of State—the benefit of the authority implementing the scheme—but the way in which it is worded suggests that it is intended as some sort of benefit for the carrier. My noble friend may not have the information to explain that further at this stage, but he will understand why I went down that route. The presentation of the provision fits with the explanation, but it seems as though it is for the benefit of the carrier, yet the carrier has the right to appeal. I would be glad to have that confirmed.

Lord Ashton of Hyde: I may be able to help. It is right that Clause 19(4) says that procedures for imposing a penalty,

“must provide for a carrier to be given an opportunity to object”.

We are keen that the carrier should be able to object first and, if necessary, move on to an appeal later. It is in the Bill because, I am told, this is the way that it is normally provided for. It may, in particular, make provision for allowing an appeal. We prefer that they object first and then are able to appeal. As I said, I can give an assurance that the method for appealing will be in the regulations.

Lord Rosser: I thank the Minister for his response. Given that he indicated that the Government would consider the views expressed by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee to which I referred, I will not seek to pursue Amendment 100.

I will make one point about why I hope the Government will consider carefully what the committee said, which I am sure they will. The Minister said that the existing powers had not been used to affect large numbers of people. I think he used the expression “huge swathes of people”. That is one of the concerns that needs to be properly allayed, and it was a concern referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed. Clause 18(2)(b) says,

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“the classes of passengers or crew in respect of whom authority to carry must be sought (which may be all of them or may be defined by reference to nationality, the possession of specified documents or otherwise)”.

In noting that the categories are “by reference to nationality”, that gives the prospect of the “huge swathes of people” to which the Minister has referred. It is important that in looking at this matter in the light of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s views—as the Minister has said the Government will—the Government’s response firmly nails down that the reference in Clause 18(2)(b) should not be interpreted as meaning “huge swathes of people”. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 100 withdrawn.

Clause 18 agreed.

Clause 19: Penalty for breach of authority-to-carry scheme

Amendments 101 and 102 not moved.

Clause 19 agreed.

Clause 20 agreed.

Amendment 103

Moved by Lord West of Spithead

103: After Clause 20, insert the following new Clause—

“Unmanned aerial vehicles

(1) A person commits an offence if that person without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof of which shall lie with him) operates or controls an unmanned aerial vehicle, and—

(a) for the purposes of terrorism, the vehicle is fitted with—

(i) any firearm,

(ii) any explosive (whether in the form of a bomb, grenade or otherwise, and whether a manufactured or adapted device),

(iii) any article (not falling within either of the preceding paragraphs) made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person or for destroying; or

(b) he operates the vehicle within an area which the Secretary of State designates as restricted under this section.

(2) The Secretary of State may by regulations designate areas in which the operation of unmanned aerial vehicles may be restricted or prohibited in order to reduce the risk of terrorism-related activities within the United Kingdom.

(3) Regulations under this section shall be made by statutory instrument; and any such statutory instrument may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.

(4) The Secretary of State must review the operation of this section and lay a report before each House of Parliament at least annually after the section comes into force, which must include a review of the use of unmanned aerial vehicles—

(a) in connection with terrorism-related activities, and

(b) by any public body or agent in connection with countering terrorism-related activities.

(5) In this section—

“unmanned aerial vehicle” means any unmanned aerial vehicle controlled or overseen by a human operator, and

“terrorism” has the same meaning as in Chapter 2 of Part 1.”

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Lord West of Spithead (Lab): I declare an interest as a member of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Drones. A number of factors made me feel it was necessary to introduce the amendment. The first is that there is no definition of unmanned aerial vehicles. They are commonly known as drones although it tends to upset people in the military if you call them that. I have found it difficult to consider anything of 20 grams or less carrying a man. That is so inconceivable that I think the term “drones” can be used. There is no definition in existing primary or secondary legislation. The closest to a definition is “small, unmanned aircraft”, which is in Article 253 of the Air Navigation Order 2009.

8.45 pm

The second thing that made me feel that we need to start moving down this route is the huge and rapid march in technology. We discussed earlier the whole issue of communications data and how quickly that is changing. The same is true in this area. In 2009, when we were setting up the whole package for Olympic security, we were worried about hang-gliders and unmanned aerial vehicles, but we were talking about quite big unmanned aerial vehicles, which were not necessarily that reliable. Now we have very small, highly reliable and very complex little aerial vehicles which you can buy for as little as £300 to £500. People with access to money—for example, terrorists—can buy lots of them. That is really quite important. Being able to get them so cheaply is apparently known as the Maplin’s factor, which I understand is some sort of store. I was not aware of that; I thought it was something to do with a seaside resort in Wales.