I would just like to pay a small tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, for saying right at the start that he would be consistent, but I was a little disappointed that he suggested that if I divided the House he might not be able to vote for the amendment because of the drafting. That seems to be something that he should be able to overcome. If the House decides to accept the amendment, I shall be quite happy for the Government to come back with new drafting. I am very happy to work with the noble Lord to ensure that we reach agreement on the drafting, just as we have agreed on the principle of maintaining the support for our Armed Forces and ensuring the security of our country.
Baroness Northover: Perhaps I may clarify that we will be giving no further thought to the amendment. I also clarify that if DfID contracts the MoD to deliver humanitarian assistance, it counts as ODA. However, following what the noble Lord has just said to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, I want to clarify that we will not be giving further thought to improving his amendment.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: If that was designed to prevent me dividing the House, it was a pretty good example of negative advocacy. I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.
1.26 pm
Contents 41; Not-Contents 124.
CONTENTS
Borwick, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, L.
Burns, L.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cormack, L.
Craigavon, V.
Donoughue, L. [Teller]
Eccles, V.
Erroll, E.
Flight, L.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Framlingham, L.
Holmes of Richmond, L.
Howie of Troon, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lexden, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L. [Teller]
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mawson, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Ramsbotham, L.
Reid of Cardowan, L.
Sheikh, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Stirrup, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Trefgarne, L.
True, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Warnock, B.
West of Spithead, L.
NOT CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Adonis, L.
Ahmad of Wimbledon, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, B.
Balfe, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Benjamin, B.
Berridge, B.
Billingham, B.
Boateng, L.
Bourne of Aberystwyth, L.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brinton, B.
Brookman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browne of Ladyton, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle, Bp.
Cashman, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Collins of Highbury, L.
Corston, B.
Courtown, E.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Derby, Bp.
Donaghy, B.
Doocey, B.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Eaton, B.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
German, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grantchester, L.
Grender, B.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayter of Kentish Town, B.
Healy of Primrose Hill, B.
Hodgson of Abinger, B. [Teller]
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hollick, L.
Hooper, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hussain, L.
Hussein-Ece, B.
Jenkin of Kennington, B.
Kennedy of Cradley, B.
Kennedy of Southwark, L.
Kinnock, L.
Kinnock of Holyhead, B.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Kramer, B.
Lipsey, L.
Ludford, B.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McConnell of Glenscorrodale, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Manzoor, B.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mobarik, B.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
Nye, B.
Paddick, L.
Parminter, B.
Pendry, L.
Popat, L.
Prosser, B.
Purvis of Tweed, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rebuck, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharkey, L.
Sherlock, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Basildon, B.
Smith of Newnham, B.
Stowell of Beeston, B.
Suttie, B. [Teller]
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wheeler, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Trafford, B.
Wills, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
1.40 pm
Clause 5: Independent evaluation of official development assistance
Lord Hollick (Lab): My Lords, we now come to the part of the Bill relating to scrutiny. It is particularly important because, as we discussed on the first amendment, there is no prior scrutiny by the Treasury of this expenditure. So I think that we all recognise that scrutiny after the event is of particular importance and this amendment seeks to answer the question of who is to provide the independent evaluation of official development assistance to ensure that it represents value for money.
The Bill gives the appointment of the independent evaluation official to the Secretary of State. We think this is wrong. We believe that the Bill should make it clear at this stage that independent evaluation should be provided by the Independent Commission for Aid Impact. This was established in 2011 as an independent body to scrutinise the impact and effectiveness of the UK aid budget on intended beneficiaries, to assess the delivery of value for money for the UK taxpayer and to provide important evidence-based feedback to Government decision-making and performance. Over the last three years the ICAI has accumulated a deep knowledge and understanding of the impact and effectiveness of aid programmes on a country-by-country basis. The House of Commons International Development Committee has praised the work of the ICAI. Its expertise, growing reputation and independence make it the ideal body to carry out the independent evaluation required by the Bill.
Clarity about who is responsible for oversight is critical both to the effectiveness and the authority of the evaluation process. Oversight by a number of different bodies in a piecemeal way—a sort of “flexible” approach—is a recipe for muddle, confusion and ineffective scrutiny. Institutions and corporations have learnt the hard way that clear lines of responsibility are essential to good governance. Flexible oversight is not good governance.
The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, and the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Northover, are correct to highlight the important role played by the NAO. Parliamentary oversight by the Public Accounts Committee and the International Development Committee will draw upon the work of the NAO, and in particular its assessment of the effectiveness of the ICAI itself, so we can be confident that there is effective oversight of the ICAI. The suggestion that the Secretary of State should decide which body should scrutinise the performance of his or her department and the effectiveness and value for money of its aid programme is surely completely out of place in a world where rigorous, arm’s-length and independent scrutiny is now the norm.
Michael Moore, when he introduced the Bill in the other place, said that we must all be conscious of the need to reassure the public that the large and increasing amount of overseas development expenditure is spent not only appropriately, but effectively and efficiently. The public today are deeply sceptical of the ability of institutions to do what they say they should be doing and to be effectively held to account. In order to pass Michael Moore’s test—an important test which I agree with—there must be complete clarity about who is responsible for oversight.
My noble friend Lord Collins made this very point with his characteristic succinctness when he said:
“As the aid budget rises, so must our ability to control it. That is why Labour strongly supports the Independent Commission for Aid Impact”.—[Official Report, 23/1/15; col. 1566.]
The Minister told us that when the Bill was introduced, there was considerable concern about duplication of responsibilities because the ICAI had also come into existence. She went on to say that it was “highly likely” that the ICAI would be the body appointed to be responsible for providing independent evaluation of the aid programme. We look forward to hearing her confirm that that will indeed be the case. I beg to move.
Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords, I shall speak mainly to my Amendment 24, which is grouped with the amendment that has just been proposed so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Hollick. However, I shall first say a few words about his amendment, for which a very strong case can be made. The Economic Affairs Committee of this House took evidence from representatives of the Independent Commission on Aid Impact, and I am glad to see that my noble friend Lord Tugendhat is in his place because he was a member of the committee at the time. The ICAI was a useful innovation which was introduced by Andrew Mitchell when he was Secretary of State. However, we did not find the evidence very impressive—but that was in late 2011 or early 2012, when the commission was very new. I hope that the commission has subsequently improved because a strong ICAI is badly needed.
1.45 pm
Clause 5 is headed, “Independent evaluation of official development assistance”. That independent evaluation is, as the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, said, absolutely essential. The promoters of the Bill know that it is absolutely essential—otherwise they would not have put it there. I have produced a different way
of achieving this independent evaluation, which will certainly be familiar to my noble friend Lord Purvis because it was drafted not by me but by his right honourable friend Michael Moore and was an essential part of the Bill as introduced in the other place. I admit it is rather a long amendment, but that is how it was drafted by Mr Moore, and it was an integral part of the Bill as originally introduced. In Committee, the Minister proposed an amendment taking out the clause, giving the following reason:
“We will do significant damage, perhaps dealing a fatal blow, to the Bill if we leave clause 5 in it, because the clause opens up the scope to further amendments by any number of those who are opposed to the passage of the Bill and want to delay it on Report”.—[Official Report, Commons, International Development (Official Development Assistance Target) Bill Committee, 11/11/14; col. 34.]
That is very honest but it is also very shabby: it is no reason for taking out something which is essential and integral to the passage of the Bill. It shows a rather regrettable attitude to Parliament, which we have the opportunity to put right.
Clause 5 did not go altogether; it is still there, but it is an empty shell. It just says, “Independent evaluation of official development assistance”, but gives no indication of how that independent evaluation—which all noble Lords who have spoken, on all sides of the House, agree is essential—will be achieved. It could be achieved in one of two ways: either by the means in the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, through ICAI, as it is known to the aficionados, the buffs or whatever they like to call themselves, or by setting up this new body, the independent international development office. However, the Government must choose. I would be very happy if they chose the route suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Hollick—but, one way or another, this independent evaluation has to be assured.
It is absolutely no use saying, as no doubt the Minister will, that ICAI—the independent commission on aid evaluation or whatever it is called—is there all the time. Unless this is put on a statutory basis, in the Bill, it does not take the trick. It has to be one thing or the other, and part of the Bill. Mr Michael Moore was of course well aware of this. He knew that the ICAI was there anyway. But he realised that this was not adequate so he put in the Bill this new body and the schedule setting it up, giving its duties, composition and so on. He was quite right to do so. That is what we have to have. We have to have either one or the other in the Bill.
I hope therefore that my noble friend the Minister will, on reflection, say that she can accept either the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, or the one that I have tabled—which in effect is not mine but came from her right honourable friend Michael Moore—because one or the other is essential.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick: My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Lawson has said, these are two amendments aimed at the same target. This issue of accountability and evaluation of the aid programme is very important for several reasons: first, because of the big increase in the amount of aid; and secondly, as the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, said, echoing what was said in the House of Commons, in order to reassure the public that value for money is being preserved.
As the Bill stands, there seems to be a lack of accountability. This is in essence a public relations Bill. It is gesture politics. We all know that the target of 0.7% can be met anyway. The Government have met it. They do not need the Bill. The Bill does not add anything. What the Bill does is send a signal, which some noble Lords have supported; others are more sceptical about the value of the signal. But the Bill by itself does not authorise the expenditure. We still have to have estimates from the House of Commons. They still have to be voted on. The Bill has no sanction. It is an expression of good will, but that is not what Acts of Parliament are for. Of course, the Bill is not legally enforceable either.
We have two ways in which we move on to address the issue of accountability. My noble friend Lord Lawson has resurrected the independent international development office, which was in the original Bill and then removed. It is a bit of a mystery why it was removed but, in consequence, the Government are in a position where they can mark their own homework. They can write a report saying how marvellously they have done.
What I do not understand is why the ICAI is not mentioned in the Bill under the clause on evaluation. When Mr Desmond Swayne was speaking in the House of Commons on 5 December, he referred to the ICAI as,
“this independent mechanism that measures our aid, scrutinises it and ensures that it is of the highest standard. That will also be the body that will establish the independently verified figures”.—[
Official Report
, Commons, 5/12/14; col. 590.]
He seemed to be implying that the ICAI would do the job of evaluation. If so, why is it not mentioned in the Bill? Of course, it is a very small body. I think it has four commissioners and a small secretariat, so I do not know whether it really is up to the job, although it has a high reputation.
When addressing these sorts of questions in Committee, my noble friend the Minister—slightly in conflict, I think, with what Mr Swayne said—said that she did not feel that,
“tying that function to one particular agency is the answer”,—[
Official Report
, 6/2/15; col. 995.]
the function being accountability. But surely if you are looking for accountability and whether a programme is effective, it is much better to have one body to have a clear line of demarcation, and it is one body that should be responsible for saying whether there has been any distortion of or alteration in the effectiveness of aid by the great increase in the target. This is a very important amendment indeed.
I hope we might hear from the Labour Front Bench. I know that the Opposition support the Bill, but I am sure that they also support principles of accountability and transparency. It would be very useful to know the view of the Opposition on this amendment.
Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab): I am sorely tempted now, after all this time. Let me reassure my noble friend Lord Hollick that, absolutely, accountability is vital to the Bill. We can be very satisfied that, as we have heard in every debate on every group of amendments, transparency on aid financing and the level of accountability is unique. ICAI has been doing a very good job. The fact that it has produced critical reports in recent times highlights its important role. I want to
ensure that we develop its role and defend its responsibilities. I certainly want to ensure that we have a system of accountability that is robust and sustainable. I have every faith in the parliamentary accountability of ICAI through the development committee. That is why I am satisfied, and the party is satisfied, with the level of accountability on value for money and the impact that the spending has. However, for the avoidance of any doubt, if that independence or capability was ever brought into doubt, I assure my noble friend that we would not hesitate to legislate further to ensure that it is sustainable and robust.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Before the noble Lord sits down, will he explain, having said how important it is and that he is prepared to legislate in the future, why he would not be prepared to accept his noble friend’s amendment?
Lord Collins of Highbury: The simple fact of the matter is that I am satisfied with the current arrangements and that we have a very strong level of accountability. Any amendments proposed at this time are not necessary.
Baroness Northover: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for his support. I think that we all agree that independent evaluation of the value for money of our ODA is essential. That is why the Government have significantly strengthened external scrutiny and accountability mechanisms for UK aid, including establishing ICAI. I thank noble Lords for their tributes to it.
ICAI has a key role to play in evaluating the department’s work, and I emphasise that it is likely in practice to be the main body through which this part of the Bill is delivered—I agree here with my right honourable friend Desmond Swayne. However, we do not agree that tying the function of independent verification entirely to one particular organisation, and enshrining that organisation in statute, is the right step to take. We do not want to limit the current range of scrutiny options that are available.
ICAI is an independent scrutiny body that reports not to the DfID Secretary of State but to Parliament through the International Development Select Committee. The IDC has a specific sub-committee which is responsible for overseeing the work of ICAI, approving ICAI’s work plan and taking evidence in public hearings following the publication of each ICAI report. It holds an inquiry into ICAI’s annual report. Noble Lords have emphasised their respect for what ICAI is doing.
The Bill asks that the Secretary of State include in each DfID annual report a statement as to how he or she has complied with the duty to ensure that there is independent verification of development assistance. As I have said, it is likely that that would be done for ICAI. The annual report is subject to scrutiny by both the National Audit Office and the IDC. Clause 5 of the Bill thus ensures that the Secretary of State will be answerable, including to Parliament, through the IDC, on whether his or her choice was of an independent and suitable body. It also allows transparent reporting on the full range of independent evaluations, and allows for scrutiny of whether the spread of arrangements in place effectively examines value for money. We
believe that Clause 5 strengthens the current framework in such a way that adds value, increases accountability for programmes and projects and ensures that the value for money of our work is independently evaluated, but it does not enshrine a new body in law.
The whole thrust of this Parliament’s policy has been to bear down on the creation—
Lord Lawson of Blaby: My Lords—
Baroness Northover: Perhaps I might complete what I am going to say.
The whole thrust of this Parliament’s policy has been to bear down on the creation of new statutory bodies, such as would be established by the IIDO amendment. This Parliament passed the Public Bodies Act 2011, and we seek to eliminate the creation in statute of what have been called quangos and other such bodies. Noble Lords will remember the blood on the carpet as we went through the then Public Bodies Bill. That is why we think that it is proper to avoid doing that in the Bill. A mechanism is there to ensure that independent scrutiny takes place. I reassure noble Lords that it is highly likely to be ICAI, given its track record, but there are scrutiny bodies which help to ensure that that is an effective route of scrutiny.
2 pm
Lord Lawson of Blaby: I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. The question of creating a new quango does not arise if the Government are prepared to accept the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, because ICAI already exists. There would be no new quango. There would be if the Michael Moore proposal incorporated in my amendment was agreed, that is true, but not if it is ICAI. My noble friend said that it will probably be ICAI. That is not good enough. We want a commitment that ICAI will be charged with that responsibility and that that will be written into the Bill. It is no good saying that there are other bodies such as Select Committees. Select Committees perform a completely different function—it is a very important one, but they are not under my noble friend’s department’s command. It is the Secretary of State’s responsibility to charge ICAI with this role. To say that it is very likely that it will be, but that it may not be, really is bad government.
Baroness Northover: My noble friend will have heard what the noble Lord said about respecting how ICAI is operating now. One would hope that that is the case in future.
I point out that ICAI is one part of a wider suite of scrutiny mechanisms. The National Audit Office has statutory responsibility for conducting value for money studies on DfID’s work, and it reports to the PAC, often critically, which also makes recommendations about DfID’s work. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s Development Assistance Committee also examines the UK’s development assistance as part of a regular series of peer reviews of donor aid policies and programmes.
The structure in the Bill provides that the Secretary of State is held to account to ensure that there is proper independent scrutiny. As I said, it is highly likely that it will be ICAI, and I hope that noble Lords will take as our commitment to ensure that our aid is very thoroughly scrutinised the fact that ICAI was set up in the first place. It is not appropriate to specify it in the Bill, for the reasons that I have given. There are checks there to ensure that scrutiny. I make clear that we will oppose the amendment.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: Before my noble friend sits down, by way of analogy, what would she think about a company which was spending, say, £11 billion or so that came up with the proposition that instead of appointing an auditor, it would appoint several auditors who were all jointly responsible and then pick the result that suited its interests?
Baroness Northover: I think that my noble friend has missed the elements where I mentioned the way in which the Secretary of State will be held to account for how our aid budget is properly and independently scrutinised.
Lord Purvis of Tweed: My Lords, Amendment 22 is in similar terms to an amendment tabled in Committee, and Amendments 24 and 27 are new. Noble Lords will recall that in Committee we debated an amendment—at that point Amendment 25, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market, Lord Hollick, Lord Lawson of Blaby and Lord Lamont of Lerwick—which called for an independent inquiry into the independence, efficiency and effectiveness of the Independent Commission for Aid Impact. We then debated their concerns about the operation, and we now return to their call for that to be the statutory body. I do not believe that they have made a strong case to reconcile the two aspects of it today, either.
Let me address the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, because I actually agreed with a large amount of what he said about the need for proper scrutiny. The Minister responded to all those points. The purpose of the Bill, however, is to create a requirement not only that there is independent evaluation—it is important for that to be in the Bill anyway—but that it is the duty of the Secretary of State to report how that independent evaluation is being carried out. These are two very significant powers that the legislation will be providing. They strengthen the existing process for the 2006 Act, which is now on the statute book. We have seen a number of the annual reports presented under the basis of that Act; they will be even stronger.
As the Minister indicated, the mechanism that we wish to assume would be in place is ICAI. The question is whether ICAI can carry out its functions as an advisory NDPB, answerable to this specific sub-committee of the Commons International Development Committee, or whether it is required to be on a statutory footing for the exclusive purpose of this evaluation. From my own position, I believe that it is not flexibility but good governance which allows the structure in place to be taken forward—with of course the view, as the noble Lord, Lord Collins of Highbury, indicated, that there is sufficient scope in future to improve that
process even more. That will of course have to take place anyway in May 2015 because the memorandum of understanding between the Department for International Development and the Independent Commission for Aid Impact is due to be renewed, as is the framework agreement under which it operates and is accountable to Parliament.
I think that I should highlight this, because it may address some of the points which I think have been erroneously cited about whether DfID is effectively being judge and jury when it comes to evaluating this. The memorandum of understanding states very clearly that under its principles, in paragraph 2.1, ICAI should:
“Ensure independence of staff, decision-making and the process of undertaking evaluations, reviews and investigations”.
Further, in paragraph 2.5, the memorandum says that DfID should:
“Respect the independence of ICAI staff, decision-making and reports”.
Any change to that would have to be brought to Parliament—to the Commons IDC—which I have no doubt would be scrutinising it, in addition to the very fact that the renewal of this memorandum and the framework will be brought to Parliament anyway.
Lord Lamont of Lerwick: We are listening to the noble Lord with great attention and he has made powerful points about ICAI. But is it not fundamentally very strange and unsatisfactory that the Bill should reach this stage with the status and role that ICAI is to play not being crystal clear and with the Minister simply saying that it is “highly likely” that it will perform this function? That assurance is in complete contradiction with her other remark that we do not want one agency to do it. Surely this ought to be clear.
Lord Purvis of Tweed: I understand the point that my noble friend makes but the purpose of the Bill, as I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, is to require the duty for independent evaluation to be carried out and then for the Government to state how that is carried out. It is the role of the Government then to provide that—
Lord Lawson of Blaby: If my noble friend will allow me—
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con): Perhaps I could say that, after the Minister has spoken, only short questions of elucidation to the Minister are permitted on Report.
Lord Purvis of Tweed: Ordinarily, I would give way but on the basis of that guidance and a reflection on the Companion, I regret that I will not.
But as my noble friend has drawn me, let me address his amendment. He was referring to whether it would be virtuous to establish a separate organisation to carry out this function. In Committee, I was very clear in citing from the Official Report when my right honourable friend Michael Moore lodged his proposal. I quoted that and need not do so now, but he lodged his proposal and consulted upon it. The Government put forward their reasoned argument with regard to effective independent evaluation. My right honourable friend accepted that argument and the Bill was sufficiently
amended. I am therefore satisfied that the Bill as it stands is robust in that regard and does not require the creation of a wholly new and separate quango. We have a structure in place under the Bill that I believe calls for the points that the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, called for. On that basis—and, hopefully, clarification—I hope that he will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hollick: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken on this. There seems to be a large measure of agreement, and enthusiastic endorsement of the fact, that the ICAI is the body that is fit to do this. I was particularly grateful for my noble friend’s recommitment to the role that ICAI can play here. “Highly likely” falls somewhat short of a slamdunk, but at this stage it is probably satisfactory. We hope that the words both from the Front Bench and from the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, the proposer, will carry weight as we move forward on the Bill. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendments 23 and 24 not moved.
Clause 6: Short title, commencement and extent
25: Clause 6, page 3, line 1, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
“(2) This Act comes into force on such day on or after 1 June 2015 as the Secretary of State may by regulations made by statutory instrument appoint.
(2A) A statutory instrument containing regulations under subsection (2) may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.”
Lord Butler of Brockwell: My Lords, the House will be relieved to know that I can move this amendment very briefly because the point is a very simple one. The Bill does not apply to the present Government; its only purpose, as I said earlier, is to bind future Governments. It will be noted that the Bill comes into effect on 1 June, and that date will not be lost on the House. The point of the amendment is that it seems wrong that a future Government should not have the chance to decide whether they wish to implement the Bill. I am not saying that it is constitutionally wrong—any Parliament can of course pass a law that binds the next Government—but I am saying that, so close to the election, to move a Bill that binds the next Government without giving them a chance to say whether they want to accept and implement it is wrong.
I noted that the Minister ducked a question earlier about whether the next Government would continue the 2% pledge by saying that the new Government will take a decision. If the new Government can take a decision on that, surely they ought to have the right to take a decision on this. It may be said, “That’s all right because the Labour Party supports this too so, whichever Government are in power, they support the Bill”. Frankly, the polls tell us that we do not know quite what the nature of the next Government will be or
what situation they may face. The purpose of this amendment is to ensure that the Bill does not come into effect on 1 June but at such time after that date as the new Government should decide and to bring it into effect by regulation. I beg to move.
Viscount Eccles: My Lords, I strongly support the amendment. If we are getting into gesture politics now that we are running up to an election—we have varying views as to what the public will think and indeed possibly varying views as to how many votes some candidate might garner as a result of the Bill—it is completely wrong to set it on a date before the next Government have a chance to consider the outcome of the election, their own position and their attitude towards the Bill.
2.15 pm
Baroness Northover: My Lords, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Butler, seeks to put in place a further hurdle before this legislation can come into force. I am afraid that we cannot support his amendment. It would take the commencement of the Bill out of the hands of this Parliament—he has made that clear, even though this Parliament has extensively debated and supported the Bill—and into the hands of Ministers in a future Government. In particular, if this amendment were carried, it would give power to a future Government to decide when to lay the necessary secondary legislation for consideration by Parliament.
This Bill has significant cross-party consensus and support. That has been evident during debate in both Houses and in the votes this morning in this House. The importance of the UK meeting its commitment to invest 0.7% of GNI and enshrining that commitment in law was in the manifestos of all the major parties which fought the 2010 election. None of the major parties has indicated that it would move away from that after the next election.
It would be entirely within the power of future Parliaments to bring forward legislation that sets out an alternative position towards the aid budget. However, this Parliament, in both Houses, has debated the Bill, supported it in the majority of votes at each stage so far, and will, I hope, ensure that the Bill passes through to Royal Assent. As noble Lords will know, to have the very act of commencement require an affirmative resolution is extremely unusual. I was going to ask my noble friend Lady Thomas whether she could think of any instances. This amendment is not in keeping with the Bill. I call on the noble Lord to withdraw it and—
Lord Lipsey: My Lords, I am slightly surprised by the “extremely unusual”. The House will recall that at the end of the Brown Government both Houses passed a Bill to make care of elderly people in their own homes free. Following discussion between both Houses, it was agreed that, given that the Bill was passed on the eve of the general election, it should require a resolution before it was put into effect. In normal circumstances, that sort of process would not make much sense because it would be the same Government. However, this would be a different Government. Last time this occurred, quite sensibly the Government of the day agreed to it.
Baroness Northover: As I say, this Bill, unlike the discussion on care, which I remember very clearly, has had overwhelming support. There were a lot of Divisions over how best to take care forward, as the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, acutely knows. Given the overwhelming support within the other place and, thus far, in this place, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Butler, will withdraw his amendment. If he chooses not to do so and to test the opinion of the House, I hope that the House will reject his amendment.
Lord Purvis of Tweed: My Lords, this is a sunrise clause amendment before we debate a sunset clause amendment, neither of which I would accept. Commencement orders come with legislation, usually through secondary legislation to do with the administrative implementation of agreed primary legislation, but usually to do with technical aspects of proper timing for administrative or technical purposes. That is quite different from this measure. The Bill has now had more than 25-and-a-half hours of parliamentary scrutiny. It has gone through the House of Commons and has been tested by Division in both Houses. Once it is on the statute book in this Parliament the proper parliamentary manner in which this would be repealed would be for a measure to be put forward in the next Parliament to repeal it. That would have to be done in the full glare of public opinion after significant debate and, one hopes, after a degree of consensus. Funnily enough, all those aspects are why this Bill was presented to Parliament. All those aspects are there, and that is why I believe it is strong. I know that the noble Lord who put forward this amendment is not like other noble Lords who have indicated very clearly that they oppose the 0.7% target in principle. They have said that it is gesture politics and a dishcloth of a proposal. I know that the noble Lord does not hold those views, but nevertheless I do not believe that this is appropriate. Parliament will have expressed its view on the Bill. I hope that it will be enduring legislation but the proper course would be for a future Parliament to repeal it, if it so chose. Therefore I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment. If he does not do so, I would ask the House not to accept the amendment.
Lord Butler of Brockwell: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his generous words. He said that there would be a proper course for a future Government to repeal the Bill, but that that would have to be done in the glare of publicity, which would of course be extremely difficult. The Minister said that the effect of the amendment would be that a future Government would have to decide to implement it. Precisely—that is what I believe ought to happen when we are so near an election and a new Government will shortly be coming in.
This is a point of principle. I regret to try the patience of the House but, for one last time, I beg leave to seek the opinion of the House.
2.20 pm
Contents 30; Not-Contents 108.
CONTENTS
Borwick, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L. [Teller]
Burns, L.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Condon, L.
Cormack, L.
Craigavon, V.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Erroll, E.
Flight, L.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Hollick, L.
Holmes of Richmond, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lexden, L.
Lipsey, L.
Marlesford, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Ramsbotham, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stirrup, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Trefgarne, L. [Teller]
True, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
NOT CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Ahmad of Wimbledon, L.
Andrews, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, B.
Balfe, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Benjamin, B.
Berridge, B.
Boateng, L.
Bourne of Aberystwyth, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brinton, B.
Brookman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browne of Ladyton, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle, Bp.
Cashman, L.
Clancarty, E.
Collins of Highbury, L.
Davies of Stamford, L.
De Mauley, L.
Donaghy, B.
Doocey, B.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Eaton, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Gale, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grantchester, L.
Grender, B.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayter of Kentish Town, B.
Healy of Primrose Hill, B.
Hodgson of Abinger, B. [Teller]
Hooper, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hussain, L.
Jenkin of Kennington, B.
Kennedy of Cradley, B.
Kennedy of Southwark, L.
Kinnock, L.
Kinnock of Holyhead, B.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Kramer, B.
Ludford, B.
McConnell of Glenscorrodale, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Manzoor, B.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mobarik, B.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
Nye, B.
Paddick, L.
Parminter, B.
Pendry, L.
Popat, L.
Prescott, L.
Prosser, B.
Purvis of Tweed, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rebuck, B.
Redesdale, L.
Reid of Cardowan, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rosser, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheikh, L.
Sherlock, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Basildon, B.
Smith of Newnham, B.
Stowell of Beeston, B.
Suttie, B. [Teller]
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wheeler, B.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Baglan, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Wills, L.
Wrigglesworth, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
2.32 pm
Control of Horses Bill
Second Reading
2.32 pm
That the Bill be read a second time.
Baroness Mallalieu (Lab): I declare a number of relevant interests as president of the Horse Trust, president of the Countryside Alliance, chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group for the Horse and a member of the RSPCA.
I am very pleased to introduce this simple but important Bill, which has come to us from the other place. I am grateful to the honourable Member for York Outer, Mr Julian Sturdy, for inviting me to take this Private Member’s Bill through this House and congratulate him on obtaining solid cross-party support for it.
In essence, the Control of Horses Bill proposes several small amendments to the Animals Act 1971, which are intended to help people to deal more promptly and effectively with horses that are unlawfully on their land. During the Bill’s passage through the other place, it received strong support from the Minister, Mr George Eustice, and from the Opposition in the form of the Member of Parliament for Penistone and Stocksbridge, Mrs Angela Smith. Indeed, the Minister, together with Mr Sturdy, made some amendments to the Bill to extend its scope to cover both private and public land. The Bill before us reflects these changes, having been amended in the Commons, and is now extended to apply the same remedy for fly-grazing to all land in England. It does not apply to Scotland or Wales. Indeed, Wales has its own Act covering this devolved matter. It is not perhaps common for a Private Member’s Bill that has come way down the list in the draw to get this far, especially within this rather condensed legislative period before the general election, but this perhaps underlines the urgent nature of a Bill to tackle this problem, fly-grazing.
In England alone, more than 3,000, probably nearer 4,000, horses are being fly-grazed, many in poor condition. Fly-grazing is defined as the practice of deliberately placing or abandoning equines on someone’s land without their consent. This includes not just horses and ponies but donkeys, mules and hinnies. The welfare organisations have obtained evidence that this practice has become increasingly significant in recent years and has become a widespread problem. In some places, it has never been heard of. In others, there are real hotspots, but by and large it extends the length and breath of the country and is not confined to rural, urban or suburban areas—it is everywhere. It has unfortunate
problems not just for animal welfare but for public safety and the well-being of the communities that are blighted by it.
There are many cases of horses being abandoned and neglected. They range from situations in which owners who have struggled to cope have given up because of the cost of keeping a horse, to irresponsible breeding or when people just look for opportunities to graze or easily dispose of horses they cannot sell. There is some evidence that the increase in fly-grazing is linked to the weakness in the price of lesser-quality animals and to the recession. Many horses are now effectively of no value whatever.
The Animals Act 1971 needs amending for that reason, and the existing provisions are no longer valid. They were based on a time when there was a value to the horse. The current problem does not, therefore, meet the current legislation. The person who detains a horse on his land and goes through the procedures under the 1971 Act must then put it up for sale. The expectation when the Act was passed—and the relevant section covers all sorts of other animals that still have a value—was that the person who detained and possibly suffered damage as a result of fly-grazing would be able to recoup some money by selling the animal. However, that is not now the case.
There is increasing evidence that some unscrupulous dealers allow the horses to be detained and do not claim them. The horses are then taken, given a passport, a microchip, which very few of them have, possibly some veterinary treatment, are put up for sale and then bought back at a knockdown price by the very people who have effectively dumped them. They have acquired back a horse of considerably greater value, because with a passport and a chip it is likely to have some sale value, albeit for meat. As Julian Sturdy said of the Bill at Third Reading in another place:
“Our ability to protect horses from a life of neglect on both private and public land will be greatly enhanced”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/1/15; col. 1158.]
The timing of the legislation is to some extent dictated by a crisis that goes wider than simply fly-grazing. Against the background of between 3,000 and 4,000 horses that are being fly-grazed, it is estimated by the equine charities that a further 3,000 horses that are in a very poor condition at this moment, but are kept lawfully on land that people are entitled to use.
I turn to the details of the legislation. It is short, has just five clauses and proposes some modest but none the less important changes to the Animals Act to carve out a specific regime to deal with horses put on land without lawful authority in England. It leaves the Animals Act unchanged as it applies to other livestock and all the Act unchanged as it applies in Wales, because the matter is devolved. The Welsh are ahead of us: they enacted not identical but similar legislation in 2014. Ireland is ahead of us still. Southern Ireland brought in legislation of this type as long ago as 1996. It has been an enormous success, with a very large number of horses being detained and dealt with under that Act. In the first year of the Welsh legislation’s operation, some 480 horses passed through this system that would otherwise still be fly-grazing, unless they had died of neglect, which is sadly all too common.
Focusing on the central clause, Clause 3, the Bill enables local authorities, and private owners and occupiers of land, to deal with fly-grazing horses much more quickly than at present. It permits the disposal of horses after four working days from detention, rather than the 14 days currently prescribed under the Act. In addition, in the event that a detained horse is not claimed by the owner, the Bill provides more flexible options for disposal of horses. Instead of having to go through a sale at market or public auction, the Bill allows disposal by any means—humanely, obviously—that the detainer thinks fit. He can give the horse away, whether to a charity or a suitable individual, offer it for private sale, rehome it, or, in some cases where there is no alternative—this is the case with quite a significant number of these horses—arrange for humane euthanasia.
The current detention time under the Animals Act has been said to be unnecessarily long because there are considerable expenses attached to it. I believe that the proposed reduction to four working days strikes a good balance. It allows time for a responsible horse owner to claim their missing horse, while it reduces the expenses imposed on the local authority or person who has detained the horse and has to care for it properly on his own land. The Defra code of practice for horse welfare says that a horse should be seen at least once a day. That is what a responsible owner would do, so he would be alerted to any horse missing in very good time.
Fly-grazing is an extremely expensive problem. For each day that a horse is detained, there are requirements that it be properly cared for, fed and watered, and given shelter. Sometimes transport, housing and veterinary attention are necessary. We know that at least one council spent more than £100,000 to address the problem over the course of the year. The new measures proposed in the Bill have the potential to provide swift resolution to cases of fly-grazing and to deter others. This would also help to reduce the significant demand on resources that are usually required to tackle fly-grazing incidents. The reality is that many of these horses have little or no monetary value.
I also draw noble Lords’ attention to the safeguards in the Bill for what I would call responsible horse owners. I think we all accept that no matter how well fenced, there are occasions when horses accidently stray, very often through no fault of the owner, through a gate being left open or something of that sort. The Bill includes procedural protections to ensure that responsible horse owners can track down and reclaim horses that have accidentally strayed and are wrongly presumed to be fly-grazing. Those procedural protections would be overseen by the local police, who, under the Bill’s provisions, have to be notified within 24 hours of any detention, or that detention may not carry on. On this basis, a horse owner who contacts the police about a missing horse will enable the police to reconcile that report with a notice given by a person detaining a fly-grazing horse. One hopes that they would be able to reunite the horse with its legitimate owner, once settlement is agreed over the costs of any care provided during the detention period. The police already operate a call and command computer system, which is often
shared with the local authority and other police stations. Hopefully, once this measure is in place, that can be polished up and extended.
Unfortunately, the owners of fly-grazing horses are often quite impossible to trace, or they do not wish to be traced as they have abandoned the horse. I have seen the results of that for myself at the Horse Trust, where I saw one of three nice horses that had been abandoned in a ploughed field. One was dead by the time anyone was alerted, the second was unable to be moved and was put down on the spot, and the third had what I was told was a condition score of nought. It was in fact a skeleton with some skin on it. Astonishingly, with incredibly good care, that horse survived, but many do not and many are found starving or worse. They have very rarely been properly treated for parasites and some are injured. Many suffer from malnutrition and exposure, and very often they have been grazing in areas with poisonous plants and have suffered long-term damage, for example from ragwort. In 2014, the RSPCA received more than 2,000 calls about more than 1,300 horses and donkeys that appeared to have been, frankly, abandoned. Therefore, animal welfare is one problem which this Bill is aimed at dealing with.
There are problems of other sorts, not just what I call the problem of starving horses. In recent years there seem to have been a number of incidents, one as recently as last week in Essex, of unwanted, unweaned foals being left on verges, abandoned because the mare had some value but the foal did not. Fortunately, in that case the RSPCA was able to pick up the foal and it is hoped that it will enable it to survive. I have come across a number of incidents of that sort and have seen some myself.
There is a further problem, which is the danger of horses fly-grazing not just on playing fields and school playgrounds but on roads, some of them major, on to which they have strayed. There are also some areas where unscrupulous dealers—I suspect they are dealers but who knows who they are—repeatedly put horses. On 5 January the RSPCA rescued eight horses that were fly-grazing near Leighton Buzzard. They were all in very poor condition and five of them died as a result of malnutrition, parasites and severe neglect. About 10 days later, on 15 January, eight more horses were simply put back into the same field. On that occasion it took four hours for a combination of the police, Blue Cross, the RSPCA and World Horse Welfare to round up the horses, none of which appeared ever to have been handled in any way and so presented considerable difficulties.
The dangers are not just road accidents but unfortunately sometimes very nearly fatal rail accidents. Last year, in November, 12 horses were killed on a railway line near Cambridge, having been caught on the track between two trains. As short a time as two weeks ago, some horses that had been wandering on the roads and had been put by well meaning people into a field had direct access to the railway line near Darlington and were killed. In both those cases, although the trains were damaged, fortunately the people in them were not seriously hurt. However, there are major accidents waiting to happen.
This is a case of not just health and safety but expense. The people concerned with this practice are going to have little or no concern for the inconvenience and expense that they impose on others through their actions. Indeed, the countryside and welfare groups estimate that this illegal practice costs millions of pounds each year, not just to farmers or landowners but to the police, charities and councils, and hence to taxpayers. Sadly, the major horse welfare charities are reporting that their rehoming centres are full to capacity of unwanted horses, and some of them have had to take on extra space to try to deal with at least part of the burden placed on them. This lack of resources is clearly unsustainable.
There is, I am glad to say, not only cross-party support for this measure but support from all those involved with the problem. The profile of what has been going on has been raised greatly in the last year by the campaigning organisations, which have made people aware of what has been going on. For many people, in this House and elsewhere, there is no conception of what is happening outside.
The bodies that have worked particularly hard include the RSPCA, Blue Cross, World Horse Welfare, HorseWorld, the British Horse Society and Redwings. They have joined forces with the Countryside Alliance, the CLA and the National Farmers’ Union. Together, that group produced a report on fly-grazing called Stop the Scourge. The strong consensus between groups that do not always agree on every aspect is an indication of just how important and how urgent this measure is. I am also aware that the Local Government Association is strongly in favour of the Bill, as are the police.
This Bill, short though it is, is good for animal welfare and public safety. It will ease the serious financial impact, not just on the police, charities and councils but on all of us through the taxes we pay. Above all, we have an opportunity to greatly enhance our ability to protect horses from the consequences of irresponsible ownership. In amending the Animals Act, this Bill will allow us to create a more practical and less burdensome solution to fly-grazing. It is not a total solution because that involves educating owners, but it would, I hope, ensure that local authorities and those who own land are in a better position to intervene when fly-grazing occurs and they are faced with the difficulties.
I should like to underline my debt to Julian Sturdy, who has campaigned on this issue for a very long time, for his commitment to this pressing issue. I would also like to add that the commitment from the Minister is also to be commended. I think he was determined to see that this Bill reached this House. He has assisted greatly with the passage of this Bill so far, as have his officials, to whom I also pay tribute. I strongly commend this Bill to your Lordships’ House. I beg to move.
2.51 pm
The Earl of Shrewsbury (Con): My Lords, I declare an interest as a member of the Countryside Alliance and the National Farmers’ Union. I also must declare that my wife is a breeder of some reputation—good, I hasten to add—of Welsh mountain show ponies. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, on
promoting this necessary and worthwhile Bill. Anything that serves to improve the welfare of horses in particular and equines in general is to be applauded. I give the Bill my strongest support.
All my life I have been an enthusiastic horseman, although early in my career it might not have appeared to be quite as simple as that. Having left school at the age of 16 to learn about horses and national hunt racing, I aspired to be the then Tony McCoy of the late 1960s. Such was my enthusiasm and even my courage I was undeterred by the results of my first season’s riding as an amateur over fences. I believe that record remains unbeaten to this day: it was 36 rides, 34 falls, one pulled up and one refused. When I rode for myself, which was more often than not—owners appeared not to recognise my certain skills as a future master of the jockey’s art—I wore the historic Shrewsbury silks of scarlet with gold hoops and a scarlet cap. They were, of course, excellent colours to attract attention just when one did not need it.
I found that out one Easter Saturday afternoon at Whittington in Lunesdale—“Oop north” as we Midlanders say. I had a particularly bone-crushing tumble on a very good horse of mine, Coke’s Cousin, having been brought down by a decent nag called Clear and Clean. Not a lot was clear and clean from where I was rolling around in pain and anger on the Lancashire turf, but a fellow competitor passed over me and shouted, “Oh lordy, you look just like an angry little wasp”. I got my own back a couple of races later when a complete novice having his first ride and having failed to walk the course, which I knew, asked me where to go as we came up to a split in the track on the far side by the River Lune. I shouted, “Go right”, and he did. I finished second and he was disqualified for taking the wrong course but I spent the remainder of that afternoon avoiding his father, who was becoming an increasingly darker shade of purple with rage. Needless to say, never again did I dare to make an appearance at Whittington races, being a marked man with loud colours and a slightly suspect fan club.
This Bill addresses the serious issue of fly-grazing, and other speakers will address that aspect. I wish to draw your Lordships’ attention to other matters which are equally as pressing in animal welfare terms. There is a slogan that a dog is for life and not just for Christmas. Exactly the same can be said for horses and ponies. As so often is the case, horses and ponies are bought as presents, with considerable enthusiasm and all good intent, without the people involved realising just how much of a commitment, in terms of time, welfare and finance, they are entering into. Fodder, veterinary bills, farriers’ bills, saddlery, transport, accommodation, adequate grazing and fencing, pasture management—the list is never ending and extremely expensive.
There still exists the major problem of the indiscriminate breeding of animals which are already far too plentiful, resulting in unwanted, poor-quality young stock whose only end is either being dumped or a one-way journey to the butcher’s slab. It is not unheard of for two foals to be sold as a job lot in one sale for a five pound note. What sort of life is this for one of man’s most trusted friends and servants?
What results have Her Majesty’s Government achieved with their programmes of equine passports and microchipping? Do these programmes apply to the whole of the UK? In addition, will Her Majesty’s Government consider regulating the indiscriminate breeding of inferior equine stock?
Finally, I wish this Bill the great success it so rightly deserves.
2.56 pm
Baroness Parminter (LD): My Lords, I add my voice in support of this Bill, which has been so ably introduced by the noble Baroness today. Both previous speakers have close associations with the Countryside Alliance and in a previous life I chaired the campaign to protect hunted animals when I was at the RSPCA. I think that that visibly demonstrates the breadth of support, not only across the political divides but among all the countryside and animal welfare organisations in the country. The way they have worked together is to be commended and I hope it will be the way of things in the future.
I wish to speak briefly to flesh out two points. The first is that of the Welsh example, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, alluded. In the one year since this Bill was introduced in Wales, more than half of all local authorities have found the need to make use of this legislation. In Swansea alone it has been used more than 175 times, which shows that this legislation is really needed.
However, it also poses a threat and a problem for England because a number of horse owners will simply try to export the problem. One particular horse owner, who is well known to local authorities and animal welfare groups, has in excess of 2,000 horses and is merely moving the problem around. If we do not have this legislation soon on the statute books with applicability in England, this problem will get worse and worse.
The second issue I want to flesh out further is the unsustainability of this problem for the animal welfare groups, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, referred. As I have said, I am familiar with the excellent work that the RSPCA does for horses. It has space for 113 horses in its care; at the moment it is looking after more than 700 horses, with the majority of the animals farmed out to private stables and accommodation. The cost to the RSPCA for looking after those horses is, at the moment, £2.95 million, and that excludes veterinary and prosecution costs.
The scale of the problem is not one that the RSPCA alone bears—it is shared by all the equine charities that we have, to our credit, in this country. It is not sustainable in the future and we need to act, and act quickly.
I therefore wish the Bill a speedy progress through both Houses. It will help local authorities, animal welfare groups, local communities and local people, but most of all it will help rescue horses, too many of whom are suffering a miserable existence because of the conditions they are forced to suffer because of fly-grazing and irresponsible horse owners.
3 pm
Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB): My Lords, I must declare my interests as I have a Highland pony stud and a small rural riding centre in north Yorkshire;
I am also a member of the NFU. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, on her clear explanation of the Control of Horses Bill. When I met the Member for York Outer, Julian Sturdy MP, who took this Bill through the other place, I told him that it could not be in better and safer hands in your Lordships’ House than in those of the noble Baroness and the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, who is the “Minister of the horse”.
I am interested in this Bill because it is to do with animal welfare. We are told that fly-grazing appears to have increased significantly in recent years, and charities estimate that 3,000 horses are being fly-grazed in England alone. What is the reason for this? Is it because of the economic state of some parts of the country, or is it that horses and ponies get into the hands of people who do not understand what is needed, so they turn them away when they cannot cope? There may be many different reasons, as has already been stated.
I would like to ask the Minister for some assurances to be given to the owners of horses when unexpected things happen. The Control of Horses Bill will enable local authorities and the owners and occupiers of land to deal more quickly with horses that are left on their land—after four working days as opposed to the current 14 days—and will provide more options for dealing with unclaimed horses, including private sale, gifting them to a charity and humane euthanasia.
If horses knock down fences or gates are left open by walkers and horses escape, they might be put into someone else’s field for safety reasons. Would that be classed as fly-grazing? Horses might be stolen and more time may be needed to try to find them. The overzealous RSPCA officer or local council official might not provide enough time for desperate owners to look for their horses. Some terrible things have been done to loved horses by cruel and delinquent people. With such a shortage of police officers in rural areas, time must be given to find lost horses. When I came to live in Yorkshire, there used to be two policemen in our local village; now there is none, and most of the police stations in country towns either have closed or are closing, so it takes time to get hold of a police officer. I keep my fields locked because walkers have left the gates open so many times, but at times horses will either jump over fences or knock them down.
Some horses are very valuable, while as has been said, others have very little monetary worth. Each year in my area we have Gypsies en route for Appleby Fair. They often graze their horses on the side of the road. Some people might consider that to be fly-grazing.
I hope that everything will be made clear in guidance and regulations so that innocent people are protected from overzealous officers getting it wrong. We heard from the noble Baroness that horses had been turned out into a ploughed field. When they were found, they were nearly dead, and in fact, one had died. I should also like to ask the Minister about the current situation as regards the database.
I hope that this Bill will help with the problem of fly-grazing and that it will have a speedy journey through your Lordships’ House.
3.04 pm
Baroness Eaton (Con): My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, on bringing this Bill here today and colleagues in another place on instigating it. I add my support, and that of the Local Government Association on behalf of local government, to this important legislation. If enacted, it will address the problems caused by fly-grazing horses, which is an issue in Bradford and many other communities.
I speak with a particular interest in the subject as the former chairman of the LGA, the former leader of the City of Bradford Metropolitan District City Council and a current councillor there. Noble Lords may not immediately associate horses with urban centres, but in Bradford the council has had to spend nearly a third of a million pounds to impound and look after more than 200 horses in the last four years alone. Illegally tethered horses are a real problem facing local authorities, both urban and rural. One might hope that responsibility, stewardship and the duty of care which should be part and parcel of owning animals would make this Bill unnecessary. However, this is not always the case. Fly-grazed horses are often, as we have heard, not cared for properly and suffer from injury and malnutrition.
I will not take up too much time on this issue, given the need for the Bill to make swift progress. The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, has already made the case that no animal should suffer such neglect. Many, however, will not be aware that fly-grazing, as well as being an animal welfare issue, places a significant financial burden on local authorities. It is not only a problem on public land, which is why I applaud the amendment made in the other place, which will ensure the legislation protects all landowners, both public and private.
At a time when local government has to make every penny count, it is both an absurdity and a great unfairness that taxpayers are having to face the costs of collecting and caring for these animals on behalf of owners. Perhaps most importantly, it is of great concern that fly-grazed horses pose a real risk to people simply going about their business, be that driving on our highways or enjoying playing fields, nature reserves or parks. In Wakefield, a horse tethered at the side of a main dual carriageway got free and collided with a car at night. Fortunately, the driver and his passenger escaped with only minor injuries, but the horse died. Other incidents have included fly-grazed horses charging at children playing and escaping into residents’ gardens and a nearby school.
As noble Lords will be aware, the Bill has both government backing and cross-party support. By reducing the amount of time during which local authorities are obliged to look after horses left on their land, as well as by offering more options for disposing of unclaimed horses, the Bill would ease the financial burden on councils while helping to deter the practice in the first place. As such, I wholeheartedly commend this Bill to the House and urge fellow Peers to do likewise.
3.08 pm
Lord Grantchester (Lab): I begin by thanking my noble friend Lady Mallalieu for bringing forward this important Bill today, and thank the other speakers
who have voiced their support for this measure. I declare my interest as a farmer, but one without any horse interests.
I pay tribute to my noble friend and to the many organisations that have campaigned for this over several years, including the CLA, the National Farmers’ Union and the Countryside Alliance, as well as the Horse Trust, the RSPCA, Blue Cross, World Horse Welfare, HorseWorld, the British Horse Society and Redwings. I also thank the many people and organisations that have had to deal with the problems of abandoned horses, including the many stables and sanctuaries, such as Mane Chance Sanctuary, all of which were instrumental in producing the report Left on the Verge: In the Grip of a Horse Crisis in England and Wales.
It is important to point out, however, that the bulk of horse and pony owners, including the Travelling community, are responsible and take care and pride in the job they do. I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, has nothing to fear from overzealous inspectors if horses are being properly microchipped.
The Bill will provide an answer to the abuses as it follows in the footsteps of the Control of Horses (Wales) Act 2014, which was a Labour commitment in Wales and has been very successful already, as we have heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. Although this may have transposed problems from Wales, it is nevertheless a problem that affects all parts of the United Kingdom and is a growing problem, as we have heard from many speakers. Although the problem in Wales mostly concerned public land and was so limited, this Bill has been improved to extend the provisions to private land and amend the Animals Act 1971 to close the loopholes that have left a gap in which the scourge of unlawful fly-grazing has been able to proliferate.
My noble friend Lady Mallalieu and the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, have outlined the problems caused by the estimated 3,000 loose and stray horses with little or no value—the result of poor husbandry by owners often unable to afford the costs of care and fearful of repercussions. However, trespass is a civil matter and the equine passport regime was designed more for health and food issues regarding bute than it was for identification of owners. Microchipping is compulsory only for horses born since 2009.
The Bill now puts the law into the lands of the landowner or occupier and the authorities to follow simple steps of procedure in order to bring an end to this abuse. A number of police forces—and, I hope, more in the future—operate a “green yard” policy to aid them in handling horses found on the highways, which are their responsibility to remove to safety. These green yards may be private commercial livery businesses, charities or farms, which can receive a horse to board for the current statutory 14 days prior to the horse being sold at market. With the average cost to the police to board such animals of £10 per horse per day, plus any transport costs, the reduction in the length of detention under the Bill will save some £100 per horse in keep alone.
The Bill also provides flexibility, as my noble friend Lady Mallalieu has explained, providing a range of options for the disposal of any detained horse. One of
the most inspiring options is provided by Jenny Seagrove at her Mane Chance Sanctuary, where horses and ponies are used as therapeutic tools for adults and children with a variety of problems, where a relationship with horses has been found to be particularly beneficial. I know she is proposing to set up many similar refuges for horses around the country. While expansion in this area would be very welcome, it is sadly unlikely to take in the sheer numbers from the overpopulation of horses in Britain. With welfare charities rehoming as many as possible, there is likely to be a need humanely to put down those animals unable to recover and live out a healthy life due to their poor condition or those with little prospect of finding a new home.
In the longer term the best outcome seems to be signalled by the new powers granted in the new European SANCO/7063 regulation, which allows member states to make the unique microchipping of all equine animals mandatory in addition to those born since 2009, with the introduction of a new mandatory central equine database. This would properly provide the best value in protecting the human food chain as well as enabling easier enforcement of other health and welfare regulation to manage disease, in addition to providing identity and linking each horse to a current legal owner. It is for the Minister’s department to implement this power. It would be of major significance to all the organisations mentioned if he would confirm this and outline his department’s plans regarding how it proposes to introduce SANCO/7063 and the timetable for its introduction.
On this side of the House, we believe that the Bill is an important measure that is in urgent need of implementation. We support it wholeheartedly and underline our commitment to its making speedy progress, without amendment, through your Lordships’ House and on to the statute book before Dissolution. We are somewhat critical of the Government for not having prioritised the Bill when there have been adequate opportunities during this Session, making it necessary for my noble friend Lady Mallalieu to step forward. The outdated and ill fitting legislation and enforcement powers are allowing criminals to outmanoeuvre their responsibilities and evade accountability while horses suffer, and landowners, whether public or private, find themselves enmeshed in a cruel and tragic maze. If for any reason this Bill were not to make it to the statute book, a journey that could be made so much easier if it were to be given government time, make no mistake: the next Labour Government will legislate to stop fly-grazing.
3.15 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con): My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, for bringing the Bill to your Lordships’ House and for her detailed contributions on this very serious matter of equine welfare. I should also declare an interest as a thoroughly horsy person. I am not currently an owner, but I will not be outdone by my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury, although I might not dwell on it at quite such length. I have also ridden under rules. In fact, I have someone else’s animals on my holding with, I emphasise, my full consent. I welcome
the opportunity to confirm that the Government fully support this Bill. I equally welcome the support of everyone else who has spoken.
My honourable friend George Eustice expressed in another place our conviction that the Bill, if enacted, could go a long way towards improving the existing remedies to tackle fly-grazing in the Animals Act 1971 and, in the process, improve the state of equine welfare in this country.
As the charities have reported, and the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, has said, several thousand horses are currently being left to graze on other people’s land without consent. This affects both public and private land and shows that certain horse owners show disregard for their responsibilities under the Animal Welfare Act 2006. Instead, this duty of care is imposed, unsolicited, upon others, who have to care for fly-grazed horses on their land, often incurring substantial and sudden costs in the process.
It would be remiss of me not to join the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, in paying tribute to my honourable friend Julian Sturdy, the Member for York Outer, for bringing forward the Bill in another place and his handling of it there. As the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, rightly said, there was consensus in another place that the Bill offers a chance to introduce a fairer and more effective remedy against fly-grazing and horse abandonment. That consensus has been echoed here today.
As a horse lover and the Minister responsible for animal welfare, I have a strong interest in the issue of fly-grazed horses and how to deal with the problem.
Four key Acts of Parliament apply in this area. As well as the Animals Act and the Animal Welfare Act, which is relevant to horses in distress, there is also the new Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, which gives stronger and swifter powers to deal with the owners of fly-grazed horses where those owners are able to be identified, and the Highways Act 1980, which gives powers to the police with respect to horses straying on the highway. We have acknowledged that making some relatively small but important amendments to the Animals Act would go a long way towards ensuring that the provisions in that Act work better for those trying to deal with fly-grazing. It would bring the legislation up to date and make the process more efficient and less burdensome.
In September last year, I attended a hearing of the House of Commons EFRA Select Committee on horse welfare. What was remarkable about that discussion was that, despite the wide variety of groups participating—from horse welfare charities to the RSPCA, the NFU, the CLA, local authorities and other community representatives—all participants agreed that action was needed to address fly-grazing. They were all keenly aware that the matter has a significant bearing on animal welfare. Following that committee, and after considering the telling case put by the coalition of welfare, countryside and farming interests, I am delighted to say that we were able to offer support for the Bill and help it progress to this stage in as smooth a manner as possible.
Several noble Lords asked questions. My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury asked whether anything can be done about the indiscriminate overbreeding of inferior-quality horses. Overbreeding of horses is of course a significant concern and a sign of irresponsible horse ownership and neglect. Part of the problem lies in the need for better education for owners and potential owners. They must ask themselves: do they need to breed from their horses? Do they have a market for their foals? Can they afford the costs of caring for those foals, including the costs of grazing or stabling?
The overpopulation of low-market-value horses may also be traced to the large number of abandoned animals that have been left to breed indiscriminately. The Bill could help improve the situation by introducing a remedy to allow landowners and occupiers to take swift action to deal with such horses if they stray on to their land. The remedy will ensure that the horses, once detained, will not be released back to their previous state of abandonment. They would be sold, rehomed, gifted or, ultimately, euthanized, depending on their condition and the opportunities available in each respective case.
My noble friend Lord Shrewsbury also asked about the application of the horse passport regime. Since February 2005, all owners of horses, ponies and other equines in the United Kingdom have been required to have a passport for each animal in order to comply with European legislation. Since 2009, in addition to being passported, all equines are required to be microchipped. Derogations from those requirements may apply to defined populations of wild or semi-wild horses. Derogated areas exist in England and Wales. In England, that applies to the Dartmoor, Exmoor and New Forest ponies.
The Government believe that the regime needs strengthening. A number of steps have been taken to address that at a national level—for example, by agreeing new operating standards for horse passport issuing organisations, which came into full effect on 1 April last year, and by giving clear guidance to owners and vets about their responsibilities under the legislation.
In addition, the EU adopted a revised EU-wide horse passport regulation last autumn. The key changes are: all member states to have a central equine database with greater sharing of information between member states; tighter controls over microchips and an option for member states to require chipping of older horses; a requirement to notify when a horse has been signed out of the food chain following medical treatment, with details recorded on the database; and new minimum standards for passport-issuing organisations, with stronger powers to allow Governments to suspend or withdraw approval to passport issuing organisations which fail to meet the standards. All those new rules come into effect on 1 January 2016—apart, in response to a question from the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, from the central database, which must be in place on 1 July 2016 for those member states which do not currently operate central equine databases, which include the United Kingdom.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, asked whether the Government will implement the power granted in SANCO 7063, the new EU horse passport regulation,
mandating microchipping of all horses rather than only those born since 2009. At the outset, noble Lords may like to know that the UK was instrumental in securing that provision in the newly revised EU horse passport regulation, which, as I said, is due to come into effect from January next year. The original proposal contained no such provision, and I know that it is one which the equine sector has welcomed. It has congratulated the department on securing that small but potentially important change. My officials are now working closely with representatives of the equine sector council to develop the necessary analysis of the costs and benefits of making retrospective chipping mandatory. It is an optional provision in the revised EU regulation, and I hope that noble Lords will approve of the fact that the arguments and justification for doing so must be robust and make sense for horse owners and regulators alike. I am encouraged, however, by the way in which the sector has responded to the challenge to produce that analysis and we will continue to work closely with it on that.
The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, asked what safeguards are in place to ensure that a horse owner can protect his or her horse and recover it if it accidentally strays and is detained under the provisions. The primary safeguard to prevent a horse straying and being detained is, of course, responsible ownership. The Defra code of practice on the welfare of horses prescribes that persons responsible for a horse should check on it at least once a day—something that will have been drilled into the noble Baroness, as it was into me, from an early age. In addition, the Animals Act already contains a safeguard system, in that it requires that the police be informed and maintain a record-keeping system for any reports of detained and missing horses.
The Act also requires that notices be issued to the horse’s owner if this person is known. Information given to the police is retained through a call and command computer system, and in practice details are often shared with local authorities. The process should enable horse owners to come forward to claim their horse within the specified detention time. The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, referred to that as four days; it is in fact four working days, which is slightly longer in most cases. This allows the owners to know with some certainty that if the horse has been detained, the police will have the details of the detention. The police will be able to advise the horse’s owners of their rights under the Animals Act. Under the Bill, the safeguard process would remain although the police would be required to receive details of a detained horse within 24 hours, instead of within 48 hours as at present. This enables horse owners to act more immediately, which is in the interests of all parties, not least the detained horse.
The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, also asked about the reason for fly-grazing, and alluded to the fact that it is probably complex, and indeed it is—there is a range of reasons. The reason that we are really focusing on here is the deliberate theft of other people’s grazing, often by large numbers of horses.
The Bill provides a tremendous opportunity to address what has become quite a widespread problem of fly-grazing, and to improve the legal protection afforded
to abandoned or fly-grazed horses. I support this Bill and we thank the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, for taking it forward. I hope it will have a speedy passage on to the statute book.
3.26 pm
Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister and to all those who have spoken. Each of the speeches has come from a position of knowledge and added to the strength of the arguments for the Bill, whether that was from a local government perspective, a charity perspective or from someone who runs riding stables or breeds horses. Those were all valuable contributions. A number of questions were asked, which I believe the Minister has answered fully. Perhaps I may underline the request made by the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, that if it can be done—as I hope it will, as soon as possible—retrospective chipping should become the policy. That is the key to the equine database being effective in 2016.
I will pick up just one matter which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, when she asked about Gypsies and Travellers. I make it absolutely clear that the Bill is aimed at irresponsible owners, not the Travelling community. The Gypsy Council has made it clear that it has no objections to the Bill. Nobody should be using somebody else’s land to graze their horses without permission. That is the underlying basis on which it is proposed to make these changes.
As the Minister noted, we all hope that we can fit within the timetable by taking the Bill forward as quickly as possible and see it on the statute book within this Parliament. It is the case, as I am sure noble Lords will appreciate, that it would be a pity to lose the opportunity provided by the Bill. If it were to be amended in this House then, sadly, it would not have time to gain Royal Assent, which would be a huge shame. I very much hope that noble Lords will support the Bill in its present form and allow it swift passage through this House. I ask the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Second Reading
3.29 pm
That the Bill be read a second time.
Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, I am delighted to have the opportunity of presenting this Bill to your Lordships’ House. It was piloted through another place with great skill by my honourable friend Jake Berry, the Member for Rossendale and Darwen, with support from all sides of the House of Commons. We are a bit depleted at this stage on a Friday afternoon, but I am particularly glad to see the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle here because we began
our long Friday, as we begin every day, with Prayers, which were taken today by him and, if I may say so, I think that he always takes our Prayers with a particular grace and dignity. He is helped a great deal by the script, of course, because those immortal words that have been said in this Chamber for nigh on 400 years are among the noblest and most melodious in the English language.
This is a simple measure, very different from the one that occupied your Lordships’ House for so many hours earlier today. It is clear, simple and modest, and it imposes no obligations upon anyone. It merely removes doubt and provides opportunity.
The background to the Bill is that in 2012 a town councillor from Bideford, a Mr Clive Bone, challenged the legality of Bideford Town Council beginning its proceedings with prayers. When he ceased to be a councillor—sadly, I understand that Mr Bone died at Christmas-time—he felt so strongly about the matter that, with the aid of the National Secular Society, he challenged the council in the courts. Mr Bone alleged that Section 111 of the Local Government Act did not give authority for holding prayers. He also alleged that the very act of holding prayers discriminated against him and infringed his human rights. The case went to the High Court and Mr Justice Ouseley ruled against Mr Bone on the latter points. He said that it was not an infringement of his human rights and he had not been unlawfully discriminated against. However—here is the rider, and an important one—Mr Justice Ouseley said that Section 3 of the Local Government Act 1972 did not permit the holding of prayers before a council meeting.
Obviously, there was widespread consternation at this. At the instigation of the Secretary of State, Mr Eric Pickles, in another place, the Government brought into force the general powers of competence under Section 1 of the Localism Act 2011, of which we will all have various memories. It was more than tokenism, because it enabled the Secretary of State to ensure that all principal local authorities in England had the opportunity to begin their proceedings with prayer.
The situation was still unsatisfactory, however: smaller parish councils were not able to confidently begin with prayer, nor were purpose authorities such as fire and rescue services or integrated transport authorities. So the Bill is to put beyond doubt the freedom of all those authorities, parish councils and so on to decide, if they so wish, that they can begin their proceedings with prayer, or indeed with a moment of reflection or meditation. I might say how glad I am that a devout Muslim, my dear and noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, is going to respond to this debate from the Government Front Bench; the Bill does not say that the prayers have to be prayers according to the Christian faith. It can be any faith or a period of meditation.
The Bill does another thing. The ruling given by Mr Justice Ouseley threw into doubt the legitimacy of local authorities participating in certain public acts of worship and also made it doubtful whether it was legal for them to do things to facilitate such acts of worship. Of course, one thinks, in particular, of Remembrance Day, when councils very often have to have road closure orders so that the solemnities of that great annual festival of remembrance can be conducted without danger to those who are participating in them.
This is a good, sensible, modest measure. As I said earlier, we begin with Prayers every day, as they do in another place. In the Scottish Parliament, they do not. They begin with Time for Reflection, a sort of thought for the day, which can often be a secular one, but that is because that is what they want to do. I emphasise to your Lordships that this is permissive legislation. There are no obligations. If the town council of Puddleton-in-the-Marsh decides it does not want to begin its meetings with prayers, it does not have to do so. If, on the other hand, it decides that it wants the local vicar, Methodist minister, rabbi or imam to lead it in prayer, that can happen.
Religion plays a very important part in the life of our nation. It is part of the very fabric of our society. I made passing reference earlier to the sonorous words and phrases, particularly of the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer, that run through our lives and our history like a golden thread.
In another place, Mr Robert Flello, the Labour Member of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent South made a very telling remark. He said:
“This measure is so gentle that someone would have to work hard to find any way of taking any sort of umbrage or insult from it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/1/15; col. 1136.]
Mr Flello summed up the aims and objectives of the Bill extremely simply, rather movingly and very truly in those words.
I commend this Bill to your Lordships. I hope it will have a swift passage on to the statute book, supported by the Government, the Official Opposition and Members in all parts of your Lordships’ House. I beg to move.
3.38 pm
The Earl of Clancarty (CB): My Lords, I have concerns about this Bill. I have never been a councillor, but there are matters of principle as well as practicalities I want to draw attention to, which we ignore at our peril.
The main issue is one of representation. A council is not elected for its religious beliefs. Individual council members are elected because of what they pledge to do for their local area, as well as for their political affiliations. Councillors, therefore, do not represent any particular religion, and that is an important point.
By the same token neither is an electorate a religious community. Eric Pickles, in defending prayers as a formal part of council meetings, was reported two years ago in the newspapers as saying:
“While welcoming and respecting fellow British citizens who belong to other faiths, we are a Christian country”.
But the reality is that in modern Britain this is only partly true. We are today a multi-cultural, multi-faith country, which contains a diversity of beliefs and non-beliefs. A Huffington Post UK poll conducted in October last year found that more than 60% of those polled in Britain were—and I quote from the Huffington Post UK—“not religious at all”.
Any electorate, then, are likely to be diverse in their religious beliefs and non-beliefs. However, if a council votes to hold prayers of a particular religion as part of
its formal business, or continues to do so for tradition’s sake, it is not just a minority of councillors who are then excluded or imposed upon but a significant number of the electorate as well. The councillors, it must be remembered, are the electorate’s servants.
In making these comments, I am not against prayer or religion. Indeed, in my opinion, it is the bishops, as much as anyone, who have in recent times been the conscience of the nation. The fact is that politics and religion overlap as philosophies, and I recognise that many who have strong religious beliefs go into politics at every level. I suspect—I do not have any numbers to prove this—that a disproportionate number of people with strong religious beliefs become politicians, relative to the population as a whole. That is simply a fact of life, but I reiterate: it is not for their religious beliefs that councillors are elected, and therefore religion should not constitute part of the formal business of council meetings.
As the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, the Bill does not specify which God should be prayed to or religion followed. I think that if the Bill passes, we will have a recipe for divisiveness and storing up potential problems in the long term. Is not the wisest course for councils to be scrupulously impartial with respect to the beliefs and non-beliefs held by the residents of a local area, while at the same time having a presence at, for example, the celebration of cultural and religious festivals where appropriate to do so? Institutionalising a particular religion within the formal business of a council meeting or identifying the council with a belief, or even a range of beliefs, must in the modern age be insensitive and crosses what many people would think is today’s acceptable line. In modern parliaments and assemblies, for instance at the GLA’s City Hall, we quite rightly now have multifaith chapels. Where individual councillors are keen to say prayers, is it too much to ask that a space—even a temporary space— be put aside for private prayer? That is a possible way forward.
I have one question of clarification. As far as I can see, nowhere in Section 1 of the Localism Act 2011 is there any reference to prayers being said at council meetings, but the notes accompanying the Bill say that it builds on that Act, which is supposed to allow local authorities to have prayers as part of formal business. At the same time, the Bill does not amend that Act but amends the Local Government Act 1972. The Bill consequently contains the full range of councils and assemblies, so I am not sure that it can be claimed to be as modest as some argue. It might be added that the Localism Act 2011, as far as I know, was not used in any defence in the National Secular Society and Mr Clive Bone v Bideford Town Council, which took place in 2012. The prosecution was on the basis of the Local Government Act. Therefore, I should like to know what precise wording in the Localism Act is deemed to allow prayers, and whether that would really stand up in a court of law.
I hope that the Government and the Opposition take careful note of these arguments before coming to any decision about support or otherwise for the Bill.
3.43 pm
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab): My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for bringing the Bill to your Lordships’ House today. I declare an interest as an elected member of Lewisham Council in London.
The Bill as outlined will give local authorities the freedom to include prayers, other religious observances or observances connected with religious or philosophical belief as part of the business of that authority. The Bill also provides that local authorities in England may support, facilitate and make arrangements to be represented at religious events or an event with a religious element.
I understand that, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, told your Lordships’ House, the Bill has its origins in the High Court ruling when a town councillor was successful in having the practice of prayers being part of the official business of the town council of which he was a member ruled as being not lawful. That was on the narrow issue of whether Section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972 gave councils the power to continue with prayers. The High Court ruled that it did not.
All the Bill does is to make it clear beyond doubt that smaller local authorities, parish councils and fire and transport and other authorities themselves have the power, the freedom and the ability to include prayers or other observances as part of their official business, if they choose to do so. They are not compelled to do anything. It is for locally elected members of local councils to make whatever decision they wish.
I refer noble Lords to line 5 of the Bill, which says:
“The business at a meeting of a local authority in England may include”—
that is “may”, not “must”. Line 8 on the first page continues with,
“observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief”.
Therefore the observance does not have to be religious at all. The Bill is enabling; as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, said, it is permissive; it is not prescriptive or compelling. Religious or philosophical observances are of a local and individual choice, which is how it should be.
As I declared earlier, I am an active member of Lewisham Council, and we do not have prayers at our council meeting. However, at a recent meeting of the council, the local rabbi was invited along to lead a short service at the start of the council meeting because it was Holocaust Memorial Day. It was very moving indeed, and very well received by everyone present. We also take part in acts of remembrance at the two war memorials in the borough, which contain a religious element and which are led by local vicars. Southwark is the area where I grew up, and it has an annual civic service. The council meeting where civic awards are presented is often held at St George’s Cathedral, which is of course very near your Lordships’ House. People of all faiths and no faith happily come along to that occasion to celebrate achievements by citizens of the borough.
I do not agree with the comments made by the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, as the safeguards in the Bill cover the points and concerns he has raised. This
is a sensible and modest measure that should concern no one. I do not intend to detain the House much longer; in conclusion I will say that this is a good Bill. It is about having the freedom to choose to do something or not as an authority, and to choose to take part or not as a local councillor. It is a sensible and proportionate Bill and most welcome, and I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for bringing it forward. I too wish the Bill well and hope that there will be no amendments, and that it will have a speedy passage through your Lordships’ House and reach the statute book before this Parliament comes to an end at the end of next month.
3.47 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con): My Lords, first, I join the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, in extending my thanks from the government Benches to my noble friend Lord Cormack for taking up this Bill. We all regard him as both an established and well respected parliamentarian, but I also know that he is a great and passionate advocate for the role of faith in community and in society and its role as a force for good in society as a whole. Therefore I can think of no one more appropriate than my noble friend in being the key Member to support the Bill. In doing so I also pay tribute to my honourable friend Jake Berry for taking the Bill through so successfully in the other place, with, again, the full support of Her Majesty’s Opposition. Again, I put on record my support for both the remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and the support from Her Majesty’s Opposition this afternoon.
Perhaps before I go further into the Bill, it is entirely appropriate to refer to some of the questions raised by the noble Earl. I have always regarded faith as a force for good; I was educated in a Church of England school. On a lighter note, I remembered that my best man at my wedding is an atheist. I will quote from his best man’s speech, when he said: “Tariq is someone I have always known as a man of faith. Faith he regards as a force for good. There may have been occasions when he sought to convert me to his own faith of Islam, and I sought to convert him to my faith of rugby and beer. Neither of us succeeded. Nevertheless, what we grew up with in the society and the country we are all part of is mutual and deep respect for each other’s views”. I think that also applies to the role of faith in society and to the role it has played historically and traditionally and which I hope it will continue to play in the present and in years to come.
We are, as the noble Earl himself acknowledged, a multifaith nation. Faith and belief are woven through the fabric of our country. It is so deeply rooted in the history of the nation that it has shaped our very landscape, from standing stones to steeples. We can boast one of the biggest mosques in western Europe and one of the biggest Hindu temples outside India. As we talk about a multifaith society, it is perhaps apt that I am accompanied on the government Front Bench by my noble friend Lord Popat, who I know is a practising Hindu, a strong member of the Government and an advocate for faith. However, I also acknowledge that many in this House and beyond, such as my best
man, practise no faith, as the noble Earl pointed out. We are a nation that not only respects all faiths but equally respects those who have no faith.
Unfortunately, we have seen in certain parts of the world instances of where intolerance of different faiths, or indeed of different interpretations of faith, can lead. We have seen that intolerance in certain parts of the world lead to persecution of minorities. However, that has never been our way. We do not agree with those who seek to impose their beliefs, or lack of belief, on others. It is because of the intolerance of others that Bills such as this sometimes become necessary.
Unfortunately, the role of faith is not shared by everybody, but in a democracy we accept that. The National Secular Society was instrumental in bringing the legal action against Bideford Town Council, to which my noble friend referred. The town council had a tradition of holding town hall prayers as part of official business—a tradition that stretched back to the reign of Queen Elizabeth the First. In February 2012, the High Court ruled on a narrow point of law that the saying of prayers as part of a formal meeting was not lawful under the powers contained in Section 111 of the Local Government Act 1972. A tradition that had existed for centuries that harmed nobody and epitomised how faith, community and public duty are closely woven together in our country was ruled unlawful.
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government acted swiftly in response. He brought into force the general power of competence for local authorities in England, giving principal local authorities in England, and some parish councils, the freedom, among other things, to continue to have prayers as part of the formal meetings of the authority. However, smaller parish councils do not have this power and neither do a range of single-purpose authorities such as fire and rescue authorities. This Bill will restore to those authorities the freedom to choose to hold prayers as part of official business, should they wish. That latter point is most important, because this Bill is about freedom.
Before I explain what the Bill does, I should explain what it does not do. As my noble friend said, this Bill has been described in another place as a,
“measure so gentle that someone would have to work very hard to find a way of taking any sort of umbrage or insult from it”.—[
Official Report
, Commons, 16/1/15; col. 1136.]
It is a Bill about freedom: freedom to pray and freedom not to pray. It is about choice: the freedom for a local authority, collectively, to take a decision to hold prayers as part of official business, or indeed not to do so, and the freedom for individual councillors to attend the meeting during that business, or not. The Bill does not compel, force or coerce a local authority to hold town hall prayers as part of its official business, nor does it compel anyone to pray.
As we have heard, we start our proceedings in your Lordships’ House with Prayers. Noble Lords have a choice whether or not they attend Prayers. As a Muslim by faith, if I am in the House I choose to attend those Prayers as it provides a point of reflection at the start of the day’s Business, not least if you are due to appear at the Dispatch Box regularly, and that process
also brings us together. There are times when one reflects on one’s own prayers as well—prayers for one’s family, friends and, indeed, the country.
This Bill takes a pragmatic, workable approach, giving local authorities the freedom to include in their business time for prayers or other religious observance connected with a religious or philosophical belief. The Bill’s provisions would give smaller parish councils and other authorities without the general power of competence the freedom to hold prayers at the start of council meetings, should they wish. The Bill also ensures that local authorities are able to support, facilitate and be represented at events with a religious element, for instance closing a road to ensure that a Remembrance Sunday event can take place safely.
It is important to protect the freedom of religious belief in our country. The Government support the Bill because it allows authorities the freedom to pray if they wish to do so. It will make the choice a local one again. It is for local authorities, and the public who elect their councillors, to decide whether meetings might begin with a prayer. It will of course continue to be for councils to determine the content of prayers, including for instance by reflecting the faith composition of their local area, but the decision on whether to hold prayers will be a local one. We heard about the experience as a local councillor of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and that this can sometimes involve Christian traditions or others, as appropriate. That is right in our multifaith nation, which has brought many benefits, and is strengthened further by the role that faith plays.
In conclusion, I and the Government believe this to be an important Bill. It is about freedom: freedom of local choice, freedom of religion, and freedom from a legal ruling that removed local democratic choice. It is important to regard the Bill in that light. The Government support this Bill because we consider its provisions to perform a valuable function. It is right that if a local authority takes a decision to say prayers as part of formal business then it should be able to do so. The Government wish this important Bill well and, as other noble Lords have said, we hope it will have a speedy progress into law.
3.56 pm
Lord Cormack: My Lords, I am immensely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, for his endorsement of the Bill and for what he said in a short but telling speech. I am grateful, too, to my noble friend Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon for what he has just said. It is good to have the Government’s support.
How splendidly symbolic it is that in this not exactly overcrowded Chamber we have a Minister who is a Muslim and a government Whip and Minister who is a Hindu. I hope that he will forgive me if I quote him. I remember that soon after he was appointed here we had a brief exchange on whether we should have prayers in your Lordships’ House. I think it occurred on the day he was due to make his maiden speech. He was sitting here, next to me, and said how much he approved of our beginning every day with prayers. I asked, “May I quote you?”. He could not speak because he had not delivered his maiden speech. With his encouragement and permission, I was therefore able
to quote the words of a Hindu to the House, which were well received, just as my noble friend has been increasingly well received over the years since. It is good to have this debate in the presence of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle.
I also thank—and I mean this—the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, because the essence of our debating is that we have different points of view. He was entirely reasonable in the way in which he put his point of view, although I disagree fundamentally with him. All I would say to him is this: when people are elected to an authority—particularly in local authorities—the issue of whether they are a member of the local parish church, synagogue or mosque is generally fairly well known. If they choose—I deliberately emphasise “choose”—to vote for prayers in the local authority to which they have been elected, that is entirely within their rights. If a majority chooses and the individual does not want to go, he or she does not have to go. I say to the noble Earl, please remember that because this is a permissive measure. No obligations are placed on anyone, as I said at the beginning. What it does is place beyond doubt and on a totally legal footing the freedom of any authority—local authority or single purpose authority—to decide what its practice should be. The noble Earl and I share many interests, particularly in the arts. I just say to him, please regard that neither I nor anyone else seeks to impose upon him or anyone else an obligation to do anything or to do nothing.
When we have our prayers in this place, the words of our great prayer, which I quoted the other night when I was giving a lecture at St Michael’s Cornhill in the City, include that most memorable phrase, when we ask that we eschew,
“private interests, prejudices, and partial affections”.
It is beholden on us all to do that: to respect the views of others. If the views of others amount to a majority in favour of prayers, philosophical observance or meditation at the beginning of a meeting, then they must be free to do so without feeling that they will face the penalties of the law.
Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
Local Government (Review of Decisions) Bill
Second Reading
4.01 pm
That the Bill be read a second time.
Baroness Eaton (Con): My Lords, my honourable friend Mr Mark Spencer deserves great credit for steering this Private Member’s Bill through another place, from its introduction on 2 July 2014 to its Third Reading on 26 January. The Bill is a common-sense, proportional measure to make local authorities accountable for the health and safety decisions they take about events, and to offer the public a route for redress where a council makes an unreasonable health and safety decision about an event.
We are fortunate in this country to have what we recognise as strong community spirit. The Bill will, I hope, ensure that communities continue to be able to hold events, allow the public to take part in and enjoy those events, and ensure that local authorities work with their communities to ensure that events are successful and safe.
Before I outline why the Bill is necessary and explain what it does, I should be very clear about what it does not do. The Bill does not weaken the very necessary and important health and safety arrangements that exist to protect employees, or the public health and safety regime that is in place nationally. The public, employers, authorities and enforcement organisations have an important role to play in ensuring that not just our workplaces, but our streets and our recreation spaces are safe. Proper and proportionate management of risk is, I think we can all agree, important and to be commended. The Bill will not place any unreasonable demands upon council resources, nor will it place unreasonable increased demand on the resources of the Local Government Ombudsman.
Why is the Bill necessary? At Second Reading in another place, during an extensive and very useful debate about the Bill and its provisions, a number of examples of what might be described as questionable decisions about health and safety at local events were given. If one wants a real and recent example demonstrating that a culture of overzealous application of health and safety really does exist, one need only ask the residents of Banbury in Oxfordshire, who nearly lost their charming mini-library, established in a telephone box, when BT warned it was going to remove the books because of health and safety considerations. In this case, I understand that the town council has stepped in and adopted the telephone box, meaning that the library remains and that the story, appropriately, has a happy ending.
The inspiration for the Bill comes from the 2010 report by my noble friend Lord Young of Graffham, Common Sense, Common Safety. This was produced following a Whitehall-wide review of the operation of health and safety laws and the growth of the compensation culture. In his foreword to the report, the Prime Minister clearly expressed the genesis of the Bill when he wrote that newspapers were reporting ever more absurd examples of senseless bureaucracy that gets in the way of people trying to do the right thing, that we should put a stop to senseless rules that get in the way of volunteering, and that we need a system which is proportionate, not bureaucratic, and which treats adults like adults and reinstates some common sense and trust. In short, while we should never disregard risk, we should ensure that we take a proportionate and common-sense approach to allowing people to enjoy themselves.
The intentions of the Bill are simple. Its provisions go some way towards halting, and even reversing, the risk-averse culture that has grown up in councils. The objectives of the Bill are straightforward. The provisions will encourage councils to give careful consideration to decisions about health and safety at events, bringing an end to unreasonable bans or restrictions on events that are a result of a risk-averse culture rather than a balanced assessment of risk. The Bill will provide a
transparent framework for council decisions on health and safety, allowing for scrutiny of council decisions and transparency in the council’s decision-making process. This should lead to sound decision-making on future health and safety decisions.
I make it quite clear that the Bill does not require councils to do anything they should not already be doing. It requires that a council must put in writing a health and safety-related decision that prevents an event taking place or places restrictions on the holding of the event. The Bill also requires that if the person who made the application to the council, or the organiser of the event, requests a review of such a decision, the council must carry out that review. The Bill does not make any provision for how the council will carry out the review—we trust councils to be able to deal with these matters fairly and efficiently. The only stipulation it makes is that the review must be completed within 15 days. The outcome of the review will be that the decision will be confirmed, withdrawn, replaced with another decision or varied, but varied only so far as the decision could have been reached in the first instance. This is, of course, to ensure that any wrong decision can be overturned or modified in time for the event to which the decision relates to take place. These measures bring transparency and accountability to a council’s decision-making process and are—I hope the House will agree—proportionate and sensible.
I turn to the role of the Local Government Ombudsman. The ombudsman is the national body to which individuals who consider they have suffered injustice arising from council maladministration can complain. The ombudsman can investigate and, if fault is found with the council, recommend redress. The ombudsman is a valued and respected part of the democratic process. The Bill makes specific provision for the ombudsman to treat a particular class of complaint differently from another class. Although the ombudsman already has discretion to distinguish the treatment of complaints, this provision will put that discretion beyond doubt and help to reduce the risk of a successful challenge from a member of the public who complains that their case has not been fast-tracked.
In discussing the role of the ombudsman, it is perhaps worth providing some assurances about what the Bill will not do. As I have already indicated, we do not expect the provisions requiring councils to put decisions in writing and to undertake a review of their decision if requested to do so to require them to do anything that they should not already be doing. Nor do I consider that the Bill will have any significant financial consequences for local authorities. In putting in place a local mechanism for the consideration and review of decisions, problems that might otherwise lead to legal action are dealt with by internal procedures and at a local level.
I would like to provide assurance to those concerned that the ombudsman might award compensation to event organisers, not just possibly for the cost of having to cancel an event but also potentially for any funds generated by the event that would, for instance, have gone to charity. The ombudsman can recommend redress, which can include financial remedy, but this
remedy is more usually in the hundreds of pounds and not the thousands of pounds. Moreover, we should trust the judgment of the ombudsman in these cases. Finally, the recommendations of the ombudsman are just that—recommendations. He does not make binding rulings and cannot compel a council to comply with its recommendations, although the overwhelming majority of councils do comply.
The Bill makes sensible provisions about local transparency and accountability, and fast-tracking redress when things cannot be resolved at a local level. More than that, it seeks to make a change to the risk-averse culture that has grown up in councils by making officials consider carefully their decisions. It is hoped that the Bill will result in local authorities working together with their communities to enable them to continue to put on events that are safe and enjoyable. These events are important for the community, and community cohesion is important for everyone.
In summary, this Bill is a common-sense and proportional measure. I hope that with the support of the House we can move forward. I beg to move.
4.11 pm
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab): My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, for bringing this Bill before your Lordships’ House. I again declare an interest as an elected member of Lewisham Borough Council.
As the noble Baroness outlined, the Bill is intended to introduce a rapid right of appeal when a local authority proposes to prevent an event from being held or seeks to impose restrictions on events on health and safety grounds. It places on local authorities a requirement for a written justification when they refuse permission for an event to go ahead.
One of the great things about living in Lewisham is the number of festivals and celebrations that take place throughout the borough organised by different members of our community. They range from street parties—where local residents come together, arrange to have the road closed and enjoy each other’s company on a sunny Sunday afternoon—to our Croftmas and Hopfest events which take place at Christmas in Crofton Park and Honor Oak Park, the ward I represent on the council. Once or twice I have taken my turn to be Father Christmas for part of the day, and the most annoying thing for me is that the Santa suit usually fits without any need for extra padding or stuffing. Other events take place throughout the borough all year round. They celebrate our diversity, the creative arts that are developing locally and People’s Day which takes place every summer.
In Lewisham, we are also very lucky to have Blackheath in our borough and we are used to dealing with large events such as the start of the London Marathon, providing support for the Olympics Games and our fantastic free fireworks display every bonfire night, which is provided by the council, along with concerts and other major events throughout the year.
Local authorities have important responsibilities to ensure that events that are organised in their areas are safe for people to enjoy and comply with relevant
legislation, which is there to make sure that people can attend events safely with their family and friends. In Brockley, we also have a small library in a telephone box—like the one referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton—on Lewisham Way. It is very popular and is used by everyone in the area. I, and I am sure many residents, would be very cross if anyone tried to take it away on any sort of grounds. I hope that it will stay for many years to come.
I am not in favour of an overzealous approach which is disproportionate to the event in question and just ruins people’s enjoyment and undermines the principle that people should be able to take part and enjoy events safely. A sensible, proportionate balance needs to be struck between protecting the health and safety of the public and also ensuring that the public can enjoy community and other events. I and the Opposition in your Lordships’ House welcome this Bill as a positive addition, a positive signal, to getting the balance right.
The provisions in the Bill that will require a local authority to put in writing the reasons for its decisions are most welcome. They are a welcome addition to the transparency of the decision-making process along with the review process for which the Bill also allows. A sound decision made by a local authority with good reasons will not be reviewed. If it is reviewed, it will only confirm what a wise decision was taken in the first place by the local authority.
I agree with the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, in respect of the ombudsman. It is only the disproportionate, over-the-top, over zealous and unjustifiable decisions that will find themselves being challenged and seriously questioned. Communities coming together and enjoying themselves at events, with the organisers having taken reasonable, proportionate precautions, is something that we can all support.
In conclusion, I wish the Bill well in its passage through your Lordships’ House. I hope that no amendments will be forthcoming, that we can dispense with the Committee and Report stages quickly and that the Bill will reach the statute book before Parliament is dissolved at the end of next month.
4.15 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con): My Lords, I am delighted to support this Bill on behalf of Her Majesty’s Government. I thank my noble friend Lady Eaton for introducing the Bill. I am sure the whole House will acknowledge that she speaks with great experience in the area of local government. Her contribution today reflects this expertise. I also thank my honourable friend Mr Mark Spencer in the other place for so successfully guiding this Bill through the House of Commons. Once again I record the support shown for this Bill by Her Majesty’s Opposition. I am sure the children of Lewisham have heard a revelation today—that that jolly character they thought was Father Christmas truly is the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark. Anyone reading today’s Hansard will know that, but let us hope that it stays a secret for at least another Christmas or two.
I echo my noble friend’s words in explaining the objectives and drivers behind this Bill, not least in the work undertaken by my noble friend Lord Young and the recommendations from his report, Common Sense Common Safety, which has helped to inform the Bill. In supporting the recommendation in that report, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has been quite clear that good health and safety is important but is concerned that all too often sensible legislation designed to protect people from harm has been extended inappropriately to cover every walk of life, no matter how low the risk. That is why the Government consider this Bill necessary.
The purpose behind the Bill, as we have heard, is to support the coming together of communities and to help to reverse a risk-averse culture that is threatening the ability, on occasions, of communities to come together. The Bill is about strengthening the openness and transparency of the decision-making process in local authorities, bringing robustness to those decisions through review mechanisms in the Bill. The benefits of bringing openness to the process should result in better engagement between the local authority and the events organiser, and that can only be a good thing.
The Bill builds upon the work that the Government have already done on town hall transparency and greater local authority accountability. We have done this because we consider that communities are too important to ignore. The Bill will help to ensure that barriers that unreasonably prevent communities coming together in a collective celebration of national and local events—the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, articulated points about his local area—or to raise money for good causes are removed. Community events provide the opportunity for people to get to know one another, to share in the history of their community, to make the history of their community and, importantly, to bind communities together.
As we have already heard from my noble friend, the Bill will not weaken the important health and safety arrangements that quite rightly exist to protect people, nor will it impact on the public health and safety regime that exists nationally. We recognise that reasonable and proportionate management of risk is important and this Bill will in no way dilute those measures.
I have been clear that transparency and accountability should lie at the heart of a local authority’s decision-making, and I should also be clear that this Bill should not require a local authority to do anything that it should not already be doing. Again, my noble friend articulated this very point. It requires local authorities to undertake certain actions when they prohibit or restrict events on the grounds of health and safety. In particular, it requires that if an authority takes a decision to stop the holding of an event or imposes restrictions or conditions on the holding of an event, it must put the reasons for such a decision in writing, be that in electronic form or otherwise. This written notification of a ban or restriction must be sent either to the person who made the application or the organiser of the event if no application was made. The written notification must be sent on the day the decision was taken or, if that is not possible, the first working day thereafter. The requirement to issue a written notification
extends not just to a ban on an event and thus prohibiting it, but to where there is a restriction on the event, as it is possible that a restriction might be judged to be so unreasonable that it amounts to a ban.
If the person who made the application or the organiser of the event is unhappy with the decision of the authority to ban or restrict the event on the grounds of health and safety, the applicant or organiser may request the authority to review it. The Bill does not prescribe a particular review mechanism because we trust local authorities to put in place their own fair and robust review processes. The Bill does provide that the authority must complete any internal review as soon as reasonably practicable after it receives a request for a review, and in any case within 15 days of receipt of the request, and on completion of the review must give written notification, in electronic form or otherwise, to the person who requested the review. The outcome of the review is that the decision may be confirmed, withdrawn, replaced with another decision or varied, but varied only so far as the decision could have been one reached in the first instance.
Perhaps I may turn now to the Local Government Ombudsman. Local issues are best resolved at the local level. However, we consider that if things cannot be resolved at the local level and the council is at fault, it is of course right that the public should have a right to redress through the Local Government Ombudsman. The Bill makes specific provision for the Local Government Ombudsman to treat a particular class of complaints differently from another class. We recognise that the Local Government Ombudsman already has the discretion to distinguish between the treatment of complaints that are referred to its office. This new clause puts that discretion beyond doubt, and in doing so will help to reduce the risk of a successful challenge from a member of the public who makes a complaint that their own case has not been fast-tracked. The Local Government Ombudsman is supportive of the provisions in the Bill, and we welcome that support.
I would like to end with some assurances. To those concerned about the Bill creating more paperwork and red tape, I can give the assurance from a Government who have striven to remove red tape from town halls, that the provisions that require a local authority to set out its reasons for a decision and to allow a decision on health and safety grounds to be challenged should result in the development of a robust decision-making process on health and safety decisions. To those concerned that this Bill will negatively impact on the resources of local authorities, I give the assurance that it does not require local authorities to do anything that they should not already be doing. And to those with concerns about this Bill leading to increased claims on local authorities, I can assure them that by putting in place a mechanism that provides for sound decision-making and an appeals process, the Bill will, if anything, prevent the need for the public to take action against their local authorities.
I close by reiterating that this is a sound and proportionate measure, as both my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, have said. Local authorities should not cancel every event through an overzealous application of health and safety rules, nor should they
allow every event to go ahead no matter what the risk. The words “sound and proportionate” are what we have heard from the contributors to this debate, and that is the aim of the Bill. That is what communities want and it is what communities deserve. True localism is about putting in place a framework that allows communities to flourish: this Bill will allow communities to do just that. From the government Benches, I am delighted to support this Bill with its supportive measures. It is about common sense and it is proportionate. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, said, I hope that we can now move forward with speed to ensure that it reaches the statute book.
4.24 pm
Baroness Eaton: My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, for his support and that of Her Majesty’s Government for the Bill. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord
Kennedy of Southwark. Like him, I regularly share in many community activities, and to think that some overzealous bureaucrat can spoil these events does not really bear thinking about. I will certainly view the noble Lord in a new light and wonder whether, in December, we will see him in somewhat different garb in the Chamber.
We have all read so often about the increasing list of apparently ridiculous decisions made on supposed health and safety grounds and have all seen so many risk-averse officials. This Bill will not affect the general requirements for safety at events but will make for very appropriate decision-making and allow people to enjoy activities so much more. I conclude by asking the House to give the Bill a Second Reading.
Bill read a second time and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.