House of Lords
Monday, 13 July 2015.
2.30 pm
Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Portsmouth.
Oaths and Affirmations
2.37 pm
Baroness Knight of Collingtree took the oath, and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct.
Lord Collins of Mapesbury made the solemn affirmation, and signed an undertaking to abide by the Code of Conduct.
Occupational Pensions: Survivor Benefits
Question
2.38 pm
To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they propose to act to address the restriction of survivor benefit payments to widowers and same-sex partners highlighted in their June 2014 Review of Survivor Benefits in Occupational Pension Schemes.
Lord Naseby (Con): My Lords, in asking the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, I declare an interest as a trustee of the parliamentary pension fund, and that my wife is a retired full-time NHS GP.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Baroness Altmann) (Con): My Lords, the Government are absolutely committed to equality. Current legislation requires all couples to be treated equally and survivor benefits are built up on an equal basis going forward. The review covers complex issues of legislation and entitlements built up in the past. Any changes could have significant implications, including costs, for private and public sector pension schemes so we must consider the review’s findings thoroughly and understand those implications fully before making a decision about whether retrospective changes should be made.
Lord Naseby: I am most grateful to the Minister for that Answer but I would like to focus on the situation of female GPs, many of whom retired around the beginning of this century. They contributed an identical amount to that of their male counterparts. The widows of the male doctors get a 50% pension. Is my noble friend aware that current widowers, and possibly those in the future, get only about 18%? Can she rectify this anomaly, bearing in mind that both parties, male and female, have contributed an equal amount of money to the pension?
Baroness Altmann: My noble friend will know that the specific differences in treatment between male and female scheme members for the purpose of survivor benefits in public service pension schemes for service
prior to 1988 were held to be lawful in 2011. This judgment was made in the Cockburn case, which specifically discussed a widower whose partner was a member of the National Health Service Pension Scheme. The judgment effectively said that there was in that case,
“an objective and reasonable justification”,
not to make retrospective changes in relation to new policy being introduced.
Benefits for widows were introduced much earlier than for widowers. The Social Security Act 1975 first imposed obligations on contracted-out schemes to provide a surviving female with a survivor pension. In those days it was usual for the man to be the partner who was working, with a dependent female partner. A female worker with a dependent husband was not the social norm. The scheme funding would have been based on the expectation that a female member would not have a dependent survivor, whereas the male would have a dependent survivor.
Lord Cashman (Lab): My Lords, does the Minister agree that this issue of equality should have been dealt with prior to the Civil Partnership Act and the same-sex marriage Act? People who survive their partners are having to cope at the time of death with appalling inequality, which should be unacceptable. Will the Minister act with expertise and expedite this matter urgently?
Baroness Altmann: My Lords, the Government are very sympathetic to the principles of equality and if we were confident that equalising these benefits is straightforward, affordable and sustainable we would be happy to support more equalisation. But we have to think carefully before imposing on schemes retrospective costs which could not have been taken into account in past funding assumptions. We are absolutely committed to tackling discrimination in all its forms and creating a fairer society for everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, but the benefits people receive—
Baroness Altmann: The benefits people receive from a pension scheme are based on their personal circumstances rather than the contributions they have paid. The overall contributions are assessed on the basis of assumptions relating to the entire membership and there is a degree of cost-sharing between members. In order to equalise—
Lord German (LD): My Lords, equalisation is a very important issue to many people in same-sex partnerships and it therefore has to be dealt with rapidly. Indeed, when this House passed the Act, we expected a rapid answer to it. Of course, costs will be involved but they will rise if they are not dealt with now, and we know they will diminish over time to a very small amount. When will the Minister commit to taking a decision on this matter?
Baroness Altmann: My Lords, these issues are complex, involving significant sums of money. They would potentially impose significant retrospective costs on pension schemes that are already struggling with large deficits and, if closed, would not have a means of recouping the costs from members in future. It would be very difficult to make newly retrospective changes and difficult to make changes to some schemes but not others. That is why the Government must consider these issues most carefully.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab): My Lords, in her initial Answer the Minister said that the Government were absolutely committed to equality. Everything she has said subsequently has mitigated that absolute statement. Will she please reiterate: are the Government absolutely committed on this issue, or are they going to equivocate in the ways that her answers have so far done?
Baroness Altmann: My Lords, the Government are absolutely committed to equality, and all accruals from now are on an absolutely equal basis. However, past funding of pension schemes would not have built in the cost estimates for equality. That is why we have to be careful and consider the issue most carefully before imposing a cost of £3.3 billion on these pension schemes. The cost for public sector pension schemes would be £2.9 billion, which has not been funded, and the cost for private sector schemes would be £400 million, which has also not been funded. Finding that kind of money when employers are already struggling is not straightforward.
Lord Bradley (Lab): My Lords, the Minister said in the Sunday Times last November:
“There has been so much unfairness in pensions over the years. Sadly, this is another unfairness, and should not be permitted these days”.
In the light of that, are the Government going to bring forward proposals quickly to match those words? What provision have they now made to meet the costs of addressing restrictions on survivor benefit payments if that decision is lifted?
Baroness Altmann: The current treatment has been challenged in the courts and been found to be lawful. If the Government had a ready source of funding, the issue would have been dealt with by now. These issues are complex and are still being considered. We will issue our response in due course.
Health: Multiple Pregnancy
Question
2.47 pm
Asked by Baroness Hodgson of Abinger
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to improve care and deliver better outcomes for mothers and children in cases of multiple pregnancy.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con): My Lords, all women should receive excellent maternity care that focuses on the best outcome for them and their babies. The Department of Health is working with key partners,
including Sands, NHS England and the royal colleges to deliver a programme to prevent stillbirths and neonatal deaths, which are a significant risk in multiple pregnancies. Furthermore, the independent national maternity review will assess current provision and consider how services should be safely developed to meet women’s needs.
Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con): The Twins & Multiple Births Association, Tamba, states that multiple pregnancies make up 3% of all births but account for more than 7% of stillbirths and 14% of neonatal deaths. Clinical guidance and quality standards have been published by NICE in recent years, but Tamba has found that fewer than 20% of maternity units have implemented the guidance in full. A particular concern is that only 18% of units have specialist midwives as recommended. Although there are figures on neonatal death and stillbirth, there are no figures on damage in multiple births, which I expect will be much higher. As we know, just a small interruption in oxygen supply can adversely affect children in the long term. Considering that since 2005 the number of reported patient safety incidents has risen by 419%, does the Minister agree that this is a worrying trend? What is being done to address this?
Lord Prior of Brampton: My Lords, the level of stillbirths in England is too high, whether from multiple or single births. The MBRRACE-UK report indicates that if we had the same rates as in Sweden or Norway, many more children would survive in this country. One of the problems that the noble Baroness puts her finger on is that the tariff system may discourage some neonatal units from referring cases to specialist referral units.
Lord Winston (Lab): My Lords, the large number of multiple births in this country is very largely due—probably half due—to the practice of in vitro fertilisation. A very large number of patients are coming into this country having been referred to clinics overseas that do not accept the regulations on limiting embryo transfer. Does the Minister have figures on this and is there something that the Government can do to stop this practice, which is seriously increasing the cost of perinatal care and the tragedy for mothers?
Lord Prior of Brampton: The Government may have figures on this. I do not have figures here today, but I shall certainly endeavour to find them as soon as I can and perhaps follow it up with the noble Lord in a meeting outside this House.
Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, given that mothers expecting multiple births need the expert care of qualified midwives and yet we have quite a shortage, and given that the Government are considering giving golden hellos to GPs, what about midwives?
Lord Prior of Brampton: My Lords, we are not considering golden hellos to midwives. There are, I think, some 6,400 extra midwives in training at the moment and some 2,100 more midwives today than there were in 2010.
Lord Bradley (Lab): My Lords, does the Minister accept that multiple births can sometimes require additional emotional support for mothers? Will he therefore ensure that some of the extra resources allocated to child mental health services are targeted at perinatal healthcare to ensure that all maternity services have access to a perinatal mental health professional as recommended by NICE guidelines?
Lord Prior of Brampton: The NICE guidelines for mothers expecting twins or more have an enhanced pathway as well, in which there will be a specialist named obstetrician and a mental health specialist. The Government have committed an extra £75 million over the next five years to increase the availability of mental health expertise to women who have multiple births.
The Earl of Listowel (CB): Does not the Minister take pride in the fact that his Government—or the coalition Government—were so successful in recruiting many more health visitors, so that vulnerable families such as these get the support that they need?
Lord Prior of Brampton: Yes, I believe that under the coalition Government an extra 4,000 health visitors were recruited, and they are very important.
National Institute for Health and Care Excellence
Question
2.52 pm
Asked by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence was asked to suspend its work on safe staffing guidelines regarding nurses.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con): The Government are committed to supporting NHS trusts to put in place sustained safe staffing by using their resources as effectively as possible for patients. The existing National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidance on maternity settings and acute in-patient wards will continue to be used by NHS trusts. NHS England, working with NICE and other national organisations, will continue with this work in other areas of care and other healthcare professional groups.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): I am grateful to the noble Lord, but that does not explain why NHS England put pressure on NICE to stop working on guidelines on safe staffing levels, despite the recommendation of Sir Robert Francis following the Mid Staffordshire inquiry. Was it because NHS England was no longer prepared to fund the implications of such work? Given that NICE has now decided to continue with work on A&E guidelines, will the Minister assure me that the Government will insist that the NHS implements those guidelines?
Lord Prior of Brampton: The noble Lord is right that the responsibility for safe staffing is now with NHS England. It will take into account any advice given by NICE, whose guidelines for acute in-patient wards and maternity services still stand. The main reason why the responsibility has been transferred to NHS England has nothing to do with funding. It has to do with the fact that the new models of care, such as the new emergency care vanguards, are much broader than just A&E; therefore, we need to take into account other factors.
Lord Willis of Knaresborough (LD): My Lords, this Answer does not empower any validation at all, unless we have criteria by which all trusts could be judged. We have the safer nursing care tool, which was produced in Sheffield and London and validated by Leeds University; it has been adopted by NICE and rolled out by the Shelford Group and other major trusts. This is a tool that would give all acute trusts the ability to judge safe staffing ratios based on acuity and patient need. Can the Minister give this House an assurance that that will be mandated to all acute trusts and then rolled out elsewhere?
Lord Prior of Brampton: I think it might be worth while for the House if I read out four lines from the NICE guidance on safe staffing:
“There is no single nursing staff-to-patient ratio that can be applied across the whole range of wards to safely meet patients’ nursing needs. Each ward has to determine its nursing staff requirements to ensure safe patient care. This guideline therefore makes recommendations about the factors that should be systematically assessed at ward level to determine the nursing staff establishment”.
I read out that paragraph because it is important to realise that every ward is different. Where there are tools to help assess the acuity of patients in wards, those tools will be used. I do not think we are planning to mandate any particular tool at this time.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): Twice I have raised with the Minister the question of a different standard of training, particularly that of entrants to nurse training. We face this great shortage. He has replied to say that the Government have it in mind to introduce such a thing. Will he tell us more about what they are proposing and when?
Lord Prior of Brampton:I am sorry—I did not quite understand the question. I realise that I cannot ask my noble friend to repeat it, so I wonder whether I could pick it up with her outside the House.
Baroness Walmsley (LD): Is the Minister aware that in Wales 12% of NHS staff have made complaints about staffing levels in the past few years? Will the Minister join me in welcoming the fact that the Labour Government of Wales will be held to account for that next year?
Lord Prior of Brampton: From what I understand, the problems in Wales mean that there is a lot more for the Government to be held to account for there.
The Countess of Mar (CB): My Lords, from personal observation from being in hospital, nurses spend a awful lot of time behind a desk ticking boxes when it
would be much more helpful and better for patients if they could deal with patients more. Is there any way of alleviating the need to fill in boxes so that they can look after patients? Can they cut the paperwork?
Lord Prior of Brampton: The noble Countess makes a very insightful point. Non-productive time—by which I mean the time when nurses are not dealing directly with patients—varies considerably, but the average seems to be about 20% to 25% of their time. The better organised wards—which takes me back to an earlier point—where there is strong local leadership from the ward sister, will be organised in such a way that staff will spend much more time with patients. I agree entirely with the noble Countess’s point.
Lord Swinfen (Con): My Lords, is part of the problem due to the specialisation of nurses? Are far too many of them being trained only as specialists so that they are therefore unable to be moved from one part of a hospital to another? Would more general training be better?
Lord Prior of Brampton: I do not think that is a problem. In many ways, in acute hospitals we lack generalists. That is true of consultants as well of nurses. That is actually my noble friend’s point. Possibly there are too many specialists, but on a cardiac ward or a specialist acute ward you need specialist nurses who know how to operate the equipment as well as how to look after the patient. You need a good balance between the two but, if anything, I fear we have, as my noble friend said, become too specialist and insufficiently generalist.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD): My Lords, what is the Minister’s opinion of the Government’s decision to deport nurses from overseas who do not reach the £35,000 a year income level with five years?
Lord Prior of Brampton: The noble Lord raises a good point. We need to train as many of our own nurses as possible. There will be times when we get those calculations wrong and it will be necessary to bring in nurses from overseas. That is not a desirable outcome for many reasons, which there is not time to go into today. We need to train more ourselves.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, will the Minister have another go at the Question? I still fail to understand why an independent body, NICE, was instructed by NHS England to discontinue work on safe staffing guidelines. What on earth caused NHS England to do that?
Lord Prior of Brampton: NICE has not been instructed to cease its work on safe staffing standards; on the contrary, it has been asked by NHS England to provide it with appropriate guidance.
Baroness Meacher (CB): My Lords, the noble Countess rightly raised the amount of time that nurses spend filling in forms and ticking boxes. Is the Minister aware that much of this work comes from the rather microregulatory requirements of the regulatory bodies,
and indeed NHS London? There are some very precise measurements, and if those were monitored carefully government Ministers and NHS England would know well whether services were being managed properly. Would the Minister consider revisiting the degree of microregulation of our health services?
Lord Prior of Brampton: I am not entirely convinced by the argument about regulation when it comes to managing wards. My own observation is that when you have strong leadership from strong ward sisters, ward managers or charge nurses, many of the problems that we identify seem to disappear and there is very high staff morale, low absenteeism and little use of agency staffing. So much comes down to local leadership, and sometimes regulation is used as a scapegoat.
Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, given that everyone accepts that the new safer staffing guidelines will require more nurses, what will the Government and Health Education England do to reduce the number of nurses who do not qualify from their training, which is currently running at about 20%?
Lord Prior of Brampton: That is a very high figure. It is quite revealing that most of the people drop out in their first placement, and it behoves universities and Health Education England to ensure that they are recruiting new nurses who have done some work in a care home or hospital so that they know what the realities and practicalities of being a nurse are.
Children’s Centres
Question
3.01 pm
Asked by Baroness Massey of Darwen
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many children’s centres have closed in the last three years, how many are likely to close during the next year, and what assessment they have made of the impact of such future closures on families.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Education (Lord Nash) (Con): My Lords, since 2013, 214 children’s centres have closed, and from 2010, 705 additional sites have opened. Any closures come from local authorities merging centres to allow services to be delivered more efficiently. What matters most is not the number of buildings but how families benefit from services, and a record number of more than 1 million parents are doing so. The department does not collect information on the number of anticipated closures but expects local authorities to ensure that they meet the needs of local families. This week we will announce a consultation on how we can maximise the impact of children’s centres to ensure that they continue to help the families most in need.
Baroness Massey of Darwen (Lab): I thank the Minister for that response and welcome the consultation, but I am sure that he would agree that it is not just the number of parents and children attending that matters but the depth and breadth of the quality of children’s centres, which is falling, as are the numbers being
opened. Is he aware of a recent report by the National Children’s Bureau and the Child Poverty Action Group on children’s centres, which said that the early intervention grant to local authorities has dropped by 55% since 2010? Can he assure me that the Government are still keen to support parents and children?
Lord Nash: I am aware of the report that the noble Baroness refers to. The overall pot for early intervention has grown to £2.5 billion, and we give councils the freedom to use their funds in the way that will best meet the needs of their community. I was delighted to see that the report referred to by the noble Baroness recommends that local authorities should share effective approaches, because it is about innovation. We have seen quite a lot of that around the country. Staffordshire, for instance, has introduced family hubs; Hertfordshire has introduced Family Matters meetings; in Islington they have a First 21 Months programme, which improves communication between children’s centres, GPs, midwives and health visitors; and in Newcastle they have introduced community family hubs.
Lord Storey (LD): The Minister will be aware of the evaluation of children’s centres being carried out by his own department and Oxford University. That report has shown that the most valued services after play and learning are those related to health—health visitors, midwives and clinics. Is it possible for him to talk to his colleague Minister about how he can ensure that these much-needed services are provided in the most disadvantaged areas so that it will not be as much of a lottery as to whether they are there or not?
Lord Nash: My noble friend Lord Prior has already given an excellent answer in which he mentioned the 10% increase in midwives and the 4,000 increase in health visitors. Of course, from September of this year public health commissioning for children under five will go to local authorities; I am sure that that will help the matter.
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood (CB): My Lords, the Minister rightly stressed the role of children’s centres in dealing with the special needs of families and children. Will the same principle of targeting inform the Government’s plans for rolling out the extra 15 free hours of childcare?
Lord Nash: We will most definitely take these matters into account in our consultation. It is very important that all families have access to high-quality, flexible and affordable childcare, particularly parents with children who have special needs or are disabled.
Lord Touhig (Lab): My Lords, every farmer in the House will know the phrase, “Do not eat the seed-corn”. If you do, you will survive this year, but next year you will starve, because nothing new has been planted. That is just what the Government are doing by cutting funding to children’s centres: they are eating the seed-corn. For short-term financial gain they are storing up problems for the future. The closure of children’s centres is a malign act and, frankly, very stupid. Therefore—patience, patience; the noble Lord’s time will come—can the Minister say whether the Government will accept that investing in our children’s future by
funding children’s centres should be a national policy objective, not left to the whims and vagaries of local councils, many of which have huge financial budgetary problems?
Lord Nash: I accept the importance of the matter, and I was delighted to see the ECCE survey, which showed that 98% of parents were “happy” or “very happy” with the services provided by their children’s centre. I know that the Labour Party likes to hark back to a golden age of Sure Start, but in 2009 the National Audit Office reported that children’s centres then were failing to reduce inequality and many were unviable, and Ofsted reported at the same time that half were not reaching out to vulnerable families. It is essential that we reach out to vulnerable families and that the facilities are tailored in the most flexible way to reach the families who need them.
The Earl of Listowel (CB): My Lords, can the Minister say what targeted services and support are offered to homeless families who may not be able to access children’s centres?
Lord Nash: Of course I empathise with the practical challenges that such families face. Housing authorities and children’s services work together locally to ensure that the needs of children in homeless families are met. This should include the role that local children’s centres can play in supporting such families. The Housing Act places a duty on authorities to co-operate with social services in situations where children may be made homeless intentionally or may be threatened with being made homeless intentionally.
Baroness Turner of Camden (Lab): My Lords, what arrangements have the Government made for regular reporting back by local authorities about the provision of children’s centres? At the moment there seem to be no national arrangements made by government for reporting back on what is provided.
Lord Nash: We will be strengthening the duty on local authorities to report on childcare provision in the Childcare Bill.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Report (1st Day)
3.08 pm
Relevant documents: 1st, 2nd and 3rd Reports from the Delegated Powers Committee
1: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
(1) The Secretary of State must lay before each House of Parliament an annual report about devolution for all areas within England pursuant to the provisions of this Act.
(2) The report shall include information on—
(a) the areas of the country where agreements have been reached;
(b) the areas of the country where proposals have been received by the Secretary of State and negotiations have taken place but agreement has not yet been reached;
(c) additional financial resources and public functions which have been devolved as a result of agreements; and
(d) the extent to which consideration has been given by a Minister of the Crown to the principle under section (Devolution statements) that powers should be devolved to combined authorities or the most appropriate local level except where those powers can more effectively be exercised by central government.
(3) The annual report shall be laid before each House of Parliament as soon as practicable after 31 March each year.”
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, I start by declaring my interest as a vice-president of the LGA. I shall speak also to Amendment 2, which we consider to be consequential. In moving this amendment, I welcome the support of the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the LGA.
Throughout our consideration of the Bill there has been an explicit recognition that it is an enabling framework Bill. Specifically, it could enable, by order, the transfer of any function of any public authority to a combined authority, and for the mayoral combined authorities some or all those functions could be exercisable only by a directly elected mayor. The scope has been widened by government amendments relating to single authorities. We support those amendments and will be considering them later today. That is being supplemented by a fast-track process and by relaxations on what can qualify as a combined authority.
Our approach to the Bill has been supportive of its thrust—not to seek to stifle the process of devolution and the innovation that it can engender but to endeavour to understand the parameters of the Government’s willingness to devolve, to ensure that devolution is fairly available to local authorities across England and to make sure that the approach is comprehensive. As we have sought more detail, the Government have resisted being prescriptive, and the answer has always been to the effect that they stand prepared to listen to any propositions from local authorities and will evaluate them on a case-by-case basis. Nothing is seemingly off the table, there are no constraints on the capacity of the Government to respond, there is no programme with priorities, everything is possible in the best of all possible worlds, and deals are done behind closed doors with announcements at politically propitious moments.
When we sought to put some structure in the process and to publish a forward strategy, it was suggested by the noble Lords, Lord Heseltine and Lord Bichard, that this would give central government an opportunity and leverage to claw back some of the powers that they are about to lose. Therefore, we have moderated our approach, as Amendment 2 in particular will indicate.
Hitherto, the only parliamentary oversight on offer has been the affirmative process for the relevant orders and the debate in both Houses of Parliament. We know from experience that this gives restricted effective oversight. The commitment to expand the process with individual reports covering matters laid down in government Amendment 33 and related expanded
provisions, is to be welcomed, but that covers only part of what is required. It addresses individual deals at the time they are made, and, when we come to discuss these later, we will explain that this will not necessarily be comprehensive. As we have seen in the case of Manchester, devolution arrangements can evolve, and not all components would require a Clause 6 order—the trigger for the Government’s additional report. Much of the proposed health devolution in the case of Greater Manchester does not appear to need the provisions in the Bill at all.
Therefore, the amendment calls for an overall annual report on the progress of the devolution: agreements reached, work in progress, functions transferred and resources devolved. Each year, such a report would provide the opportunity to take stock of progress across the country. It would be an opportunity to see whether and how devolution was working for different types of authorities—the counties as well as the metro cities—how devolution was shaping up in rural and coastal areas, whether all relevant authorities had been able to take advantage of similar functions, and whether devolved funding was fair. It could be a driver of best practice and would serve as a bulwark against those who might be tempted to linger in the slow lane. The annual report would be part of the process of holding government, central and local, to account in that it would shine a spotlight on them.
It would also be an opportunity to see progress on the devolution statements referred to in Amendment 2. This amendment was inspired by some of the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, in Committee, when he commented on the propensity of government—civil servants and politicians—to seek to constrain the process of devolution. The concern expressed was that they would seek to claw back powers through other legislation; that as we focus on this Bill there will be moves in that other legislation to prevent real devolution happening.
It was suggested that each piece of primary legislation coming before Parliament should have a devolution test—a devolution litmus test, if you like. The Minister who has introduced a Bill in either House should be required to make a devolution statement before Second Reading to the effect that the provisions in the Bill are compatible with the principles of devolving power to the most appropriate level. A statement itself would not, of course, directly trigger a process of devolution but would concentrate the minds of government and be a reminder that if the Government are serious about devolution, it should be the collective responsibility of central and local government and of all departments.
I hope the Government will accept Amendment 1 and the consequential Amendment 2 as being entirely supportive of their devolution agenda and a positive contribution to the Bill. I beg to move.
3.15 pm
Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, my name appears on both Amendments 1 and 2 and we give our full support to both. The amendments require an annual report on the progress of devolution, and require that Ministers consider when they introduce a Bill whether that legislation
is compatible with the principle that decisions should be made at the most local level possible. Both amendments seem to us to be entirely reasonable.
In Committee, we moved an amendment to create an independent panel that would review proposals for devolution and assess the Government’s record. We now have this amendment, which achieves broadly the same objective. It is important because devolution must not be unnecessarily piecemeal—that is, it needs to be clear what responsibilities are being devolved, or not devolved, to whom, and why. That, in turn, will help to define the criteria that the Government are pursuing—and that will help other authorities to frame their own proposals.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, that the point which the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, raised in Committee on Amendment 2 is a very important statement of principle and I am glad that it has been included in this group in the form of that amendment.
I hope the Minister will take seriously the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, that the Government should accept the amendment, which is entirely reasonable. I declare again my vice-presidency of the Local Government Association.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab): My Lords, I, too, support my noble friend’s amendment. This is a very welcome Bill and we are delighted that the Minister—together with her boss, the Secretary of State—is so committed to localist values. That is great, and it is very welcome.
However, one of the problems that we found in Committee is that—because of the desirability that the energy in the Bill should come from the bottom up, from localism and from local authorities trying to establish what works best in their patch—it will be very difficult for those of us outside the great authorities to know what will or will not be acceptable to the Secretary of State as future patterns for combined authorities. No general principles of any sort are laid down in the Bill—anything may go, or nothing may go. We do not want to descend into ad hocery, and we do not want to descend into blueprints, but we do need to learn from what the Secretary of State is supportive of in other bids so that those that follow in the wake of those bids can devise a structure of combined authorities that are more likely not to waste our time, waste resources or raise false hopes in our local taxpayers but will command the support and, I hope, the assent of the Secretary of State as the way forward.
If the Minister is not willing to do this—and she has very good reasons not to be willing—and lay down principles by which local authorities may guide their submissions to the Secretary of State, it will be important for the rest of us to learn through example which submissions have been successful with the Secretary of State so that we can model ourselves on the best practice that he has commended. It seems to me that this amendment is entirely in the spirit of what the Minister wants and what the Secretary of State should follow. It is the route forward to combine the best of localism and a bottom-up approach, while avoiding a straitjacket of top-down structures and allowing us to
learn from each other what is going to be best practice in the eyes of the Secretary of State. I hope very much that the Minister can support something that seems very strongly to support the path that she wants to go down and we want her to go down.
Lord Kerslake (CB): My Lords, I declare my interest as president of the Local Government Association.
Noble Lords will know from my maiden speech my passionate commitment to devolution and support for this Bill. It is because I support devolution that I think we should support Amendments 1 and 2 today. An annual report and a devolution statement seem to me to be entirely practical and sensible additions that will further devolution, not hinder it.
The exam question before us is: why, given that all three of the main political parties have supported devolution for as long as I can remember, has progress been so slow and uncertain? Here are four quick reasons. The first is the silo nature of central government. Departments think “police, health”, but they never think place. Secondly, devolution is inherently disruptive. I recall a senior official saying to me that he was very supportive of the city and local government deals provided they did not get in the way of delivering his current programmes. I did say that that was the entire point. Thirdly, there is a dislike of difference in this country, and devolution is different in different places. Fourthly, there is often nervousness at local level, particularly in voluntary and community organisations, that this will be a cosy deal between central and local government that will leave them on the sidelines.
What is proposed here is a powerful antidote to those very powerful pressures and is designed to keep the Government to their intent as set out in the Bill. If agreed, these amendments will advocate and ensure transparency and reduce the risk of one step forwards, two steps backwards, which has bedevilled the devolution debate. Indeed, the Secretary of State, Greg Clark, produced something very similar to annual reports on progress in departments in the previous Government. We should support both amendments as practical and sensible moves that will keep the Government to their intent and advance the cause of devolution.
Lord Warner (Lab): My Lords, I, too, support these amendments and very much echo the points made by the noble Lord in his last remarks. There is a silo mentality in Whitehall and it often works rather badly against what is best for place. These amendments will, in my view, help the Government progress the objectives of the Bill. I know that we are going to have a debate on Wednesday on some NHS issues around this, but Amendment 1 will help with the laggards and those who are uncertain where the health functions make sense in this legislation. It would be good to know, across the country, when particular services have been led into a devolved state and when they have not. We need to be able to capture on a regular basis the progress in this area across the range of functions it may be possible to devolve. I fully support these amendments and hope that the Government will as well.
Lord Liddle (Lab): My Lords, I add my voice in support of this amendment. I declare an interest as a member of Cumbria County Council. In that part of the north of the north, we hope that effective devolution can be extended beyond the major cities.
Some noble Lords may remember that, in Committee, I made a strong case for action to try to promote unitary authority or authorities in Cumbria. I still believe that to be necessary, as do a large proportion of people in Cumbria, but there are obstacles. We would have more effective local government if that came about, more democratically accountable local government, because responsibilities would be clearer. We would be in a much better position to exploit the potential for economic development, in particular in our part of the north of the north the billions of pounds of investment in both the new Trident missiles in Barrow and the new nuclear power station on the west coast of Cumbria. Those investments are either straight from the taxpayer or underwritten by various types of taxpayer guarantee. The potential to have effective planning around them depends on us being able to sort out our local government structure.
I shall not move on Report the amendments that I moved in Committee. I was grateful to be able to have a chat about the problem with the Minister and I think that we in general share the objectives. However, this amendment, which tries to maintain the pressure on government—it is government regardless of political party—to push ahead with devolution, is desirable. In our case, I want the Government to work with local authorities leaders in our area to see what can be done. The Minister indicated that she might along with the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, be prepared to meet the local leadership. I hope that, in the light of that, the Government may be able to invite the authorities to present proposals for reorganisation, as they are enabled to do under a previous Act of Parliament, and that the department could play an active role in trying to establish consensus in the county. This is a vital point not just in terms of economic efficiency, but with the lack of trust that there is in politics now we have to apply the principle of subsidiarity and get decision-making as close to the people as we can. That would do a lot for the democratic health of the nation. I hope that the Minister will bear these points in mind.
Lord Woolmer of Leeds (Lab): My Lords, I, too, support the amendments, but for one additional reason: that a great deal of the implementation of the Bill will depend on secondary legislation and a series of deals, each one of which, as I understand it, will be set out and agreed by both Houses in secondary legislation. As there will be a range of such deals, concerned with different parts of the country and involving different arrangements, it is enormously important that this is pulled together each year so that Parliament as well as the public and the press can understand how it is progressing and how it all makes sense put together. Individual pieces of secondary legislation are fine; it is about understanding the pattern that emerges. Rather than it being simply a series of individual deals, we should look at what they add up to. Do they add up to a pattern of devolution that makes sense across the
country? From the point of view of Parliament, to have an annual stocktaking on that element would be extremely helpful.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have made points on these amendments. I think that we are seeking the same ends but perhaps by a slightly different approach, as I will outline.
Amendment 1 would insert a new clause which places a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to provide annual reports to Parliament setting out information about devolution deals which have been agreed and those in discussion. Amendment 2 would add a new requirement that all Bills are to be accompanied by a “devolution statement”. Noble Lords have heard me say a number of times that the Government are open to discussing devolution proposals with all places. We have been clear that our approach is for areas to have conversations with us about the powers and budgets they want to be devolved to them so that they can grow their local economies and improve the competitiveness and productivity of the area. The importance of this cannot be overstated. As the Chancellor said in the Budget, the great economic challenge we face is on productivity. It is by addressing that challenge that we will ensure that Britain is what we want it to be—the most prosperous major economy in the world by the 2030s. Devolution deals are one of the most important levers for generating growth and delivering this aim.
3.30 pm
However, notwithstanding the importance of devolution deals, a new statutory requirement of an annual report on devolution statements is not the right way forward. The focus should not be on the process but on the substance of implementing the devolution deals in our major cities, our counties and across the country. The Bill enables the implementation of such bespoke devolution deals and the nature of these deals will be set out individually in orders to implement changes in respect of each proposal approved and brought forward by the Secretary of State. Therefore they will be available for both Houses of Parliament to see and consider under the affirmative procedure.
In Committee, noble Lords expressed concern that Parliament should be fully informed on the nature of the proposals. We have considered carefully those points and agree that we could strengthen and extend the information available to Parliament. Government Amendments 33 and 70, which I will move later in the proceedings, seek to do this. They provide that when the Secretary of State lays a draft order in Parliament, in addition to the order’s Explanatory Memorandum he will also lay a report explaining what the order does and why he proposes to make it. These reports, together with the Explanatory Memorandums, will ensure that Parliament will have before it all that it needs to consider the orders implementing devolution deals and governance changes. The bespoke approach in my amendments is preferable to the approach in Amendment 1 in terms of increasing genuine transparency around the devolution deals while enabling also the bespoke
deals to be agreed with different places, rather than a template or a selection from a list of functions.
Amendment 2 would require a statement to be made for each and every Bill laid before Parliament as to its compatibility with the principle that powers should be devolved to local areas unless they could be more effectively exercised by central government. Whatever the superficial attractions of such an approach, in practice it would descend into another tick-box process. It risks being a distraction from delivering the substance of real bespoke deals in places. Accordingly, such a requirement is unnecessary. If Members of either House feel that the Government are being inconsistent in their approach, they will have the opportunity to raise the issue with them.
None of this is to deny the importance of devolution and what it means for this country. I hope we can all agree on that. I hope that we can all agree that the devolution of powers and budgets to areas across the country should reflect what the areas themselves want. This would be a major reversal of the decades of centralisation—indeed, a century and a half—which we all realise has not served us particularly well as a country.
Turning to specific points, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, questioned whether Greater Manchester is using Clause 6 and whether in its deal it will draw on its powers. The clause enables powers to be given to a combined authority which are exercised by a public authority in a different area. Hence the clause could give Greater Manchester the powers on strategic planning which the GLA currently has. Giving Greater Manchester such powers is part of the deal.
The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, talked about the importance of annual statements so that we can learn from best practice, how deals have worked, and what principles were needed to back them up. Obviously, Manchester is well on the way, but as the Chancellor announced last week, Sheffield, Leeds and Liverpool are in talks with the Secretary of State. I also understand that as of last week Norwich is now in talks, which is very good news indeed. It will enable Members of both Houses as well as the councils at large to see what has been agreed and on what basis, and to learn as they go along. Indeed, I hope that Cornwall will come up with some exciting proposals soon.
The noble Baroness also talked about not setting principles on devolution because it is a waste of time. We do not intend to waste anyone’s time—
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I hope that the noble Baroness will forgive me, but I think that she has slightly misunderstood me. I accept for the sake of this argument her position—that the Secretary of State does not want to lay down principles—but what you actually have to do is deduce from the examples he has accepted which principles and action he is motivated by. That is best done in an annual statement to bring them together, which may or may not be accompanied by any contemplation that the Secretary of State may have had about the offerings. That is the way we learn from each other. I worry that small seaside towns do not have the resources of Greater Manchester to do the sort of heavy lifting that this work might otherwise require.
Baroness Williams of Trafford: I thank the noble Baroness for her intervention. The process undergone by Greater Manchester, Norwich, Cornwall and other places can act as a learning tool for small seaside towns which I agree absolutely may not, in the early stages, have the capacity or capability to think about what might be appropriate. We learn from others and this is an important process.
The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, referred to our discussion on Cumbria. Either myself or my noble friend Lord Heseltine—or indeed both of us if we can manage to get our diaries free on the same day—are looking forward to meeting with Cumbrian representatives to discuss what I thought were some very constructive points raised by the noble Lord in the meeting.
The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, talked about the four reasons why devolution is not pursued. We understand and share the noble Lord’s analysis of why devolution can be slow or non-existent, and he gave a very pertinent example which I recognise from my local government days. However, where we differ is that I doubt whether these proposals for annual reports and statements are an effective means of challenging either silo working in Whitehall or the disruption, fear of difference and nervousness at the local level. The strong drive given by the Bill, backed by the early devolution of major powers and budgets, thus creating a whole culture of devolution, is the best way forward, not annual reports which may themselves become prescriptive, or at least perceived by local areas as a direction from the Secretary of State. Given those points, I hope that the noble Lord will feel happy to withdraw his amendment.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in support of the two amendments before us, with of course the exception of the Minister. We heard from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, about the importance of not doing things piecemeal, and the pertinent point, reiterated by my noble friend Lady Hollis, that if no general principles are laid down, an annual report would at least help smaller authorities to understand what the parameters are in practice. We also heard the passionate commitment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, to the Bill, but he described these amendments as practical and sensible and a powerful antidote to the prospect of government from the centre drawing back the thrust of devolution. My noble friend Lord Warner talked about help with laggards, and said that the amendments would help us to understand the pattern. My noble friend Lord Liddle does a great selling job for Cumbria, which I hope it appreciates.
I say to the Minister that none of this would stop the “come and have a conversation” approach that the Government are pursuing. If anything, it should aid that process because it would alert those who have not yet engaged to the prospects—what is actually going on around the scene. This is a very positive contribution. Of course, nothing in these amendments is in conflict with Amendments 33 and 70, which will be moved in due course. Indeed, we can see those reports as a component of the annual report, but not sufficient.
I hope I did not say that Greater Manchester would not need to rely on Clause 6 at all. My point was that
not all of the deal is dependent on the use of Clause 6. If the extra reporting that the noble Baroness is talking about is tied to that Clause 6 order process, it would not necessarily embrace all of what is going on in practice.
I had hoped that we could agree on this. The amendments are genuinely meant to help the Bill but the Government have made their position clear. On the basis that Amendment 2 is consequential on Amendment 1, I certainly would like to test the opinion of the House on Amendment 1.
3.41 pm
Contents 219; Not-Contents 162.
CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Adebowale, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Andrews, B.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, B.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L. [Teller]
Beecham, L.
Blackstone, B.
Boateng, L.
Bradley, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brinton, B.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle, Bp.
Cashman, L.
Chidgey, L.
Christopher, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Collins of Highbury, L.
Cotter, L.
Coussins, B.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Deech, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Donaghy, B.
Doocey, B.
Drake, B.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Elder, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Garden of Frognal, B.
German, L.
Glasgow, E.
Goddard of Stockport, L.
Golding, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Grender, B.
Grey-Thompson, B.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Harries of Pentregarth, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haughey, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayter of Kentish Town, B.
Healy of Primrose Hill, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollins, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Stretford, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Humphreys, B.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hussain, L.
Hussein-Ece, B.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janke, B.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jolly, B.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jordan, L.
Kennedy of Cradley, B.
Kennedy of Southwark, L.
Kerslake, L.
King of Bow, B.
Kinnock, L.
Kinnock of Holyhead, B.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Weymouth, L.
Kramer, B.
Lennie, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Liddle, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lister of Burtersett, B.
Listowel, E.
Loomba, L.
Ludford, B.
McAvoy, L.
McConnell of Glenscorrodale, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of River Glaven, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Manzoor, B.
Mar, C.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mendelsohn, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Monks, L.
Morgan of Ely, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Newby, L. [Teller]
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Northover, B.
Nye, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Ouseley, L.
Paddick, L.
Palmer of Childs Hill, L.
Parminter, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prosser, B.
Purvis of Tweed, L.
Quin, B.
Randerson, B.
Rebuck, B.
Reid of Cardowan, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Rowlands, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Scriven, L.
Sharkey, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sherlock, B.
Shipley, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Basildon, B.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Newnham, B.
Soley, L.
Stevenson of Balmacara, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Stoneham of Droxford, L.
Storey, L.
Strasburger, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Touhig, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Tyler, L.
Tyler of Enfield, B.
Uddin, B.
Walker of Gestingthorpe, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
West of Spithead, L.
Wheeler, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Baglan, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Willis of Knaresborough, L.
Wills, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wrigglesworth, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.
NOT CONTENTS
Aberdare, L.
Ahmad of Wimbledon, L.
Altmann, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Ashton of Hyde, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Balfe, L.
Bates, L.
Berridge, B.
Bew, L.
Bilimoria, L.
Black of Brentwood, L.
Blencathra, L.
Bourne of Aberystwyth, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridges of Headley, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browning, B.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Caithness, E.
Carrington of Fulham, L.
Cathcart, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chisholm of Owlpen, B.
Cooper of Windrush, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cormack, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
De Mauley, L.
Deben, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dunlop, L.
Eaton, B.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Bowes Park, B.
Farmer, L.
Faulks, L.
Fellowes of West Stafford, L.
Fink, L.
Finkelstein, L.
Flight, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Framlingham, L.
Freeman, L.
Freud, L.
Gardiner of Kimble, L. [Teller]
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Goldie, B.
Goodlad, L.
Grade of Yarmouth, L.
Green of Hurstpierpoint, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Helic, B.
Heyhoe Flint, B.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Abinger, B.
Holmes of Richmond, L.
Horam, L.
Howard of Lympne, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
Jenkin of Kennington, B.
Jopling, L.
Kakkar, L.
Keen of Elie, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laming, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Leach of Fairford, L.
Leigh of Hurley, L.
Lexden, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livingston of Parkhead, L.
Lothian, M.
Lucas, L.
Luce, L.
Lyell, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Magan of Castletown, L.
Mawhinney, L.
Mawson, L.
Mobarik, B.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moser, L.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Nash, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Neville-Rolfe, B.
Newlove, B.
Noakes, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Gatley, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Pannick, L.
Patten of Barnes, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Popat, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rose of Monewden, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sassoon, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Shackleton of Belgravia, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheikh, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Sherbourne of Didsbury, L.
Shields, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Spicer, L.
Stedman-Scott, B.
Stirrup, L.
Stowell of Beeston, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Suri, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L. [Teller]
Trefgarne, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Wakeham, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Walker of Aldringham, L.
Warsi, B.
Wasserman, L.
Wheatcroft, B.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Trafford, B.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Younger of Leckie, V.
3.55 pm
2: Before Clause 1, insert the following new Clause—
(1) A Minister of the Crown who has introduced a Bill in either House of Parliament must, before the second reading of the Bill, make a devolution statement to the effect that in his view the provisions of the Bill are compatible with the principle that powers should be devolved to combined authorities or the most appropriate local level except where those powers can more effectively be exercised by central government.
(2) The statement must be in writing and be published in such a manner as the Minister making it considers appropriate.”
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I move this formally on the basis that it is accepted as consequential. If it is not, I would like to test the opinion of the House.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza): The Question is that Amendment 2 be agreed to. As many as are of that opinion will say “Content”, the contrary “Not Content”. The Contents have it.
Lord Trefgarne (Con): There were clear voices saying “Not Content”. There should be a Division.
The Lord Speaker: I beg your pardon, my Lords. I did not hear any “Not Content” voices. Let me put the Question again. The Question is that Amendment 2 be agreed to—as many as are of that opinion will say “Content”, the contrary “Not Content”.
The Lord Speaker: Clear the Bar.
3.56 pm
Contents 224; Not-Contents 158.
CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Adebowale, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allan of Hallam, L.
Andrews, B.
Armstrong of Hill Top, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Bach, L.
Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, B.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L. [Teller]
Beecham, L.
Blackstone, B.
Boateng, L.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bradley, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brinton, B.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle, Bp.
Cashman, L.
Chandos, V.
Chester, Bp.
Chidgey, L.
Christopher, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Collins of Highbury, L.
Cotter, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Deech, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Donaghy, B.
Donoughue, L.
Doocey, B.
Drake, B.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Elder, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Ford, B.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Gale, B.
Garden of Frognal, B.
German, L.
Glasgow, E.
Goddard of Stockport, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Grender, B.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Harries of Pentregarth, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haughey, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayter of Kentish Town, B.
Healy of Primrose Hill, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollins, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Stretford, B.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Humphreys, B.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hussein-Ece, B.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janke, B.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jolly, B.
Jones, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jordan, L.
Kennedy of Cradley, B.
Kennedy of Southwark, L.
Kerslake, L.
King of Bow, B.
Kinnock, L.
Kinnock of Holyhead, B.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Weymouth, L.
Kramer, B.
Lawrence of Clarendon, B.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lennie, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Liddle, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lister of Burtersett, B.
Listowel, E.
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Clause 1: Power to provide for an elected mayor
3: Clause 1, page 1, line 8, at end insert—
“( ) An order under subsection (1) shall not be used as a condition for agreeing to the transfer of local authority or public authority functions.”
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, in moving Amendment 3, I shall speak also to Amendment 4 when I wind up, after we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. Amendment 3 would prevent the order-making power of the Secretary of State for the creation of a directly elected mayor of a combined authority being used as a condition for agreeing to transfers of local authority or public authority functions to such an authority. I acknowledge straightaway that the order-making power generally becomes available only if the combined authority has made a proposal or consented to an elected mayor, but that this proposal or consent may not be freely made if it is clear in advance that the Government will insist on this as part of the price, or the price, of a deal.
In last week’s Budget speech, the Chancellor of the Exchequer was clear that the expanded devolution for Greater Manchester and the work in progress with Sheffield and Liverpool city regions and Leeds and West Yorkshire for far-reaching devolution of power was in return for the creation of directly elected mayors. It seems that the door is open for some devolution without having an elected mayor, and we discussed in Committee on 22 June the view expressed by the noble Baroness’s colleague, James Wharton, about there being no necessity to insist on having a mayor when something less—a Manchester-type deal—is preferred. However, we never received an answer about what “something less” amounted to, and perhaps the Minister could help us further today, as it is important that we get this on the record.
This is not an anti-elected mayor amendment. It allows that combined authorities should not have to seek an elected mayor when they have alternative
models of governance and leadership which they consider best suits their circumstances. Of course, government would be able to evaluate these models as part of the devolution process. Currently, there are a variety of elected mayors of varying political persuasions—Lib Dem, Labour, Conservative and independent—in varying types of authority, including London and regional boroughs, unitary met boroughs and non-met districts. They are overwhelmingly men, with some elections preceded by referendums and some not. Of the cities required to have mayoral referendums in 2012, only Bristol agreed, but it now wishes to change its mind and is blocked from doing so—which is why we support Amendment 74 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Janke. Indeed, it is unfortunate that the Bill perpetuates this situation and denies a combined authority the right to revoke its decision about a directly elected mayor without disbanding the authority.
We know that there are those who are strongly supportive of the directly elected mayor model in all parties—certainly in mine—but there are those who are strongly opposed. Those in favour would argue that the scale of what exists in England at present, with the exception of London, does not particularly reflect the role envisaged for the mayor under this Bill. This may be so. We accept that it needs individuals of integrity, experience and vision who can speak with authority and hold their own with their counterparts domestically and internationally. Not only elected mayors can fulfil this role, which is why we consider that individual combined authorities should have the opportunity to bring forward alternative models.
It seems somewhat strange that the Government are rightly prepared to pass responsibility, power and resources on a very substantial scale to combined authorities and trust them to deliver on vital parts of the Government’s agenda, especially the need for growth, yet seek to straitjacket them on the issue of the directly elected mayor. It seems out of balance with the whole thrust of what devolution is all about. The whole approach is characterised by the Government as a willingness and eagerness to listen to what local authorities propose and to respond accordingly. The insistence on directly elected mayors jars with this. I beg to move.
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Lord Shipley: My Lords, there are two amendments in this group. I support Amendment 3, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and shall speak to Amendment 4. In essence, the question being addressed is whether it should be compulsory for there to be an elected mayor in some circumstances.
There are two ways of looking at this. First, with a directly elected mayor, there would be a direct connection between the ballot box and the additional powers being devolved, which would give local electors a say in who is running the devolved powers. It would also give the combined authority a chair who is not dependent on a single council for their authority. On the other side of the equation, it represents a huge concentration of power in one person, and it raises the question, which we debated in Committee, of whether the range of responsibilities is so vast that one person cannot do it all. In the context of some areas, such as the north-east of England, which I know well, the scale of the
geographical area, which would run from the Scottish borders almost to the Tees valley, is so very large that it is very difficult to see how a single person could run that huge geographical area, even with the support of the leaders of the seven constituent councils. So it is right, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, said, that constituent councils, together with their combined authorities, should have the right to come forward with different models to propose to the Secretary of State.
We addressed this issue in Committee with a proposal for a greater degree of direct election to the combined authority. It would have provided a stronger degree of legitimacy because the electors would have had a role in electing more people than just the single elected mayor. But that proposal was not supported by your Lordships’ House and, as a consequence, we have not proceeded with it on Report. As we have made clear, we want devolution to succeed, but it has to succeed with clear legitimacy across the whole of a combined authority area. There are serious dangers that if it is not owned across the whole of that area, the public will start to turn against it.
One other aspect of this relates to the overview and scrutiny processes, and we discussed in Committee how that might be done. We will debate this later, but the Government have come up with some proposals that, while not as strong as I believe they should be, are certainly stronger.
I support Amendments 3 and 4 because they would give the essential flexibility needed to meet specific local needs without which devolution may not work well. We would get flexibility through Amendment 3; it would mean that there might be greater public ownership of the structure that is created.
Amendment 4 would require evidence of sufficient democratic accountability if there were to be an elected mayor. I think I have demonstrated in what I have said that it is very difficult to see how that would be delivered other than by the four-yearly election procedure. We also say that there needs to be a demonstration both that there is local support for the mayoral model and that in the construction of this new layer of government there will not be a risk to the proper functioning of the existing tier of local government.
I look forward to hearing the Minister’s reply, but I think that the ad hoc decision-making by Ministers on which areas must have elected mayors and which need not needs to be spelled out clearly. At the moment it is not clear to anybody on what basis the Government are making the announcement that they regularly continue to make, without it being clearly understood what the criteria are for the devolution of powers to specific areas.
Lord Grocott (Lab): My Lords, basically this is a decision about whether mayors should be compulsory or whether there should be a degree of local input about whether or not mayors should be directly elected. The history of public acceptance of the concept is pretty hopeless from the perspective of those who favour directly elected mayors, which I do not.
Neither my dear old Labour Party nor the Conservative Party have covered themselves in glory on this issue. I briefly remind the House that the concept of directly
elected mayors came from the last Labour Government. As far as I am concerned, as a very long-standing member of the Labour Party, it came out of a clear blue sky—or a clear red sky. I had never been to any meeting of the Labour Party at any level where there had been a clamour for directly elected mayors, nor had I, in 50-plus years of canvassing—I do not know whether anyone can challenge me on this—ever knocked on a door to be told, “I’d vote for your party if you gave us directly elected mayors”. I think it is a product of a think tank; it is certainly not a product that has at any stage involved consulting the public.
The last Labour Government at least allowed local areas to have referendums before they embarked on a system of directly elected mayors. The results, certainly from my perspective, were pretty conclusive. There were 40 mayoral referendums under the Labour Government’s legislation: 13 local areas said yes and 27 said no. That was a fairly clear demonstration nationwide that this was not a universally popular proposition.
When the Conservative-led Government came into power in 2010, they had seen the Labour Government’s experience of a lack of wild enthusiasm, but for some reason the Conservative leadership thought that it was a great idea, as had the Labour leadership, so they did not allow the public to initiate referendums for directly elected mayors but simply said, “No. You, the 10 cities, shall have a referendum whether you want one or not”. That was the basis on which they legislated. As we all know, and as my noble friend Lord McKenzie already said, the public were consulted in 10 referendums and in nine cases—my maths makes that in 90% of the cases—they said, “No thanks very much, we don’t want directly elected mayors”. Only 10%, or one city, said that it did, and I understand that that city is now not too keen on the concept, having seen it in operation.
So we have gone from a stage of local, initiated referendums under Labour, which did not work very well from the perspective of those who want this system, to compulsory referendums under the Conservatives, which if anything went even less satisfactorily. Now what do we have? We have a system that does not involve the public at any stage whatever and is simply an imposition from national government on the kind of local authority structure, or rather the management structure, that you will have whether you want it or not. If I could draw a graph to illustrate this, it would be pretty clear. The political class, which we talk about these days, of which I suppose we are members here one way or another, thinks this is a good idea, or at least the leadership does. Whenever the public are consulted they say, “No, we don’t, thank you very much”, so what does the political class do? It says, “Well, you’ll have it, sunshine, whether you want it or not”, which is the position that we are at with this legislation.
I simply appeal to the Government—it is a non-partisan appeal to the extent that I freely admit that in part my Government were to blame for all this—that if local authorities are being told, “You must have this hugely significant figure in your area, which will dramatically change how local government works there”, surely at least there must be a degree of flexibility in considering whether the people in the area want it. Surely that is
the most modest of propositions. However, as things stand, whatever the Minister says when she replies—and I am sure she will say, “It is possible in certain circumstances”—in practice we know that this is about compulsory directly elected mayors, and I do not like that idea one little bit on democratic grounds, let alone on administrative grounds. I hope that the House will consider these two amendments very seriously.
Lord Deben (Con): I hope that the Minister will not accept what has just been said. We are looking at the history of local government, which I have been involved in for a very long time—since I first sat on the Inner London Education Authority in my twenties, so I know a little about how it operates. I say to my noble friend that we need something entirely new in local government if we are to recover the kind of verve and real local contribution that local government ought to make.
I agree with the noble Lord opposite that both sides can be blamed for a lot on this. Local government pretended that it could replace the Opposition and therefore could have nuclear-free zones, foreign policies and the like. This was countered by a reaction from a Conservative Government who took away local government’s power to raise money through the business rate and the like. Both sides have a lot to answer for as regards the way in which we had that countervailing situation, and it took a long time for people to recover their respect and support for local government.
However, we have recovered our respect for a system that lacks vitality and deserves a great deal more opportunity. Our great cities should have the same kind of powers and the same sort of verve that you find in many continental cities. I do not see that we can do that under the present structure. What is more, all the amendments that come from the Opposition are about the perpetuation of the very systems that have helped to pull down local government and do not give it the sharpness that is necessary if local communities are to be properly represented.
I found the comment about the effect of mayors a bit odd. All I can say is that after a very long period of appalling local government in Bristol, in which all three parties were involved, the elected mayor of Bristol has made a dramatic improvement. He has no history of being a supporter of my party, so I speak entirely independently and objectively on that. Bristol is now extremely lucky in its representation and in the way the mayor can speak for that great city. It had years of destructive labour authorities, followed by the most peculiar system whereby each of the parties took control one by one and none covered itself in glory.
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Therefore, I beg my noble friend to stand up for this radical view. It is not surprising that the Labour Party continues to be conservative with a small “c”, and it is not surprising that people did not vote for directly elected mayors in certain areas. The whole system determined that they would not, because it would have meant that the carefully arranged local power bases would be shaken by individuals who might make a very big difference.
I was opposed to having a mayor of London. I was wrong. London is much the better for having a mayor, but it is not comfortable and this is not meant to be comfortable. These amendments are designed to avoid what will be an uncomfortable change, but it is a change that could give local authorities the same kind of standing that they have elsewhere and the same kind of standing that they once had.
It is worth taking what for the party opposite is a risk. If we go down the route followed by that party we will never get there at all. We will go on fiddling about with the system. We will not make the changes necessary and the people of Britain will continue to live in one of the most centralised societies in western Europe. I do not think that is right. I believe in devolution, but devolution needs people to lead, and that is why this amendment should be opposed.
Baroness Hollis of Heigham: I support my noble friend’s amendment. I was not expecting to speak on this but, if I may, I want to challenge the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Deben. As far as I can see, it is a view supported very strongly by former Secretaries of State, who think that basically local government should be led by people like them, ideally swishing round in cars and flying off to Japan to make contracts and so on. However, that is not what local government is about; it is about a sense of place.
The noble Lord, Lord Deben, seemed to suggest that local government has declined since the 1960s—when I came into local government, and stayed with it right through to the 1990s—because of a lack of local leadership, but I say to the noble Lord that the primary reason local government has declined is that my Government to some extent but his Government notoriously have taken away our powers, our responsibility, our finance and our accountability. They have centralised us in field after field after field, and have tried their best to turn us into postboxes of central government decisions.
I respect the position taken by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, in favour of devolution. However, if his answer is that leading local authorities should be strong people—mainly male, I guess, but not necessarily so—who are just like Secretaries of State so that in local government we get a mirror image of what is happening in central government, then I say as someone who has lived my life in and trained in local government that that is not the route that I want to follow. A sense of place means collaborative, consensual arrangements that local people want and support. If they choose to have a mayor, that is fine by me, but if that does not fit their sense of place then it should not be imposed on them by the swagger factor.
Lord Heseltine (Con): I have listened to the noble Baroness with interest and I wonder whether she has not caught up with the news that both Alan Johnson, a former Cabinet Minister in the Labour Government, and Liam Byrne, the very perceptive Chief Secretary who noticed that there was no money left, have said that in the circumstances of there being mayors they would be interested in a nomination. The fact is that creating the job of mayor has attracted a degree of interest at the very highest level in government and opposition politics. To me, one of the attractive ideas
of a mayor is that it will be a ladder up which budding national leaders will climb on their way to another place, or it will be the opportunity for people who have served at the highest levels of government to serve their local communities with all the experience that they have gained in government, having ceased to be members of a Cabinet. That is an interesting evolution of our constitutional practices that would enrich the political process. I very much hope that my noble friend will resist Amendments 3 and 4 because—let us be frank—they are wrecking amendments.
This Government were elected on the basis that there would be a deal—I quote the noble Lord, Lord Smith—of a sort “unimaginable” to local government in his experience. As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said on this issue, we have taken power away from local government decade after decade after decade without a referendum and without any sort of consultation; we did it because we did not think local government was doing a good enough job. The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, rightly said that it was done by both parties and admitted that her party played a part. But her party never did anything to restore any of the powers that my party had taken away; it loved it, shared in it and wallowed in it, as it exercised the powers that we had extricated from local government into the hands of central government.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill (LD): Can the noble Lord explain what it is that is wrecking in Amendments 3 or 4?
Lord Heseltine: The first point on Amendment 3 is that it removes the nature of the deal with government that there will be a mayor. It is designed to remove that condition. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has a different version, which has another delaying process, about consultation. But what does that mean? It means referenda. It means consultation of one sort or another. This is a delaying process.
I have no doubt that noble Lords all over this House are fully aware that from one end of England to another local councillors, leaders and industrial partners from the local enterprise partnerships are way past the debate that we are having today. They are actually designing the deals that will make this a reality. In his speech last week, the Chancellor listed Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield and the possibility of the West Midlands as being already in the process of evolving the most detailed proposals to put to the Government. The condition behind all that is a directly elected mayor, as the noble Lord, Lord Smith, said in this House not that long ago. It is a deal. He said: “We did not particularly like directly elected mayors but the offer was too good”. I therefore urge noble Lords to consider carefully whether we should be concentrating on whether there is a mayor, because there will be no deal in the circumstances we are talking about unless there is a mayor. What we should be talking about is how to ensure that the deal that is done is of the scale and level of imagination that meets the extraordinary offer that has been made.
I was surprised and disappointed when the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked: “How can one man, or woman, cope with such a situation?”. Look outside
this country and show me one where there is any alternative form of local government except what the Bill is proposing. There are senators in America with huge power. Germany has the Länder and France the departments. They seem perfectly capable of handling this massive responsibility. Are the English so impoverished as people that we have no one in our country capable of being the equal of what every advanced economy seems perfectly happy to deal with?
Anyone who has looked at this legislation will know that this is not the creation of a dictator. The checks and balances that exist within the negotiation that has been concluded with Manchester, for example, are very clear. The existing councils that make up the combined authority retain very large powers. They are part of an arrangement with the elected mayor that provides very substantial checks and balances.
The heart of this matter is that the Chancellor, in arguing for his deals, is looking, as my noble friend Lord Deben said, for a range of men and women capable of exercising leadership and appealing to the local community across the board. That is what we hope to see. In doing that, there is an offer from government to transfer power in a way that is outside any experience that any of us have had, with the exception, partially, of London.
Those of us who care about this issue are very familiar with Leicester and Liverpool, both of which have Labour mayors. One is a former Member of another place and the other a council leader who persuaded his colleagues to allow him to become a mayor. In talking to those who hold this responsibility, I have learned that their experience of the change in stature that takes place when they are seen as being a mayor—an internationally understood and recognised position—is extraordinary.
I hope very much that we in this House can perhaps move on from the minutiae of the Bill to the implementation of the legislation at the greatest possible speed. I really hope that your Lordships will catch up with where local government and the local enterprise partnerships are already. They are making this happen now. It is an exciting prospect that I never thought to see happen.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: Forgive me for interrupting, but before the noble Lord sits down will he clarify something? A statement was made at the other end that, if an area wants a deal that is not the size of Greater Manchester, it may not have to have an elected mayor. Can we have some clarity on what the lesser deal is that does not cause the imposition of an elected mayor?
Lord Heseltine: That is a very good question and rightly asked. Where the difficultly comes is that no one is imposing a deal. The Government are not saying that A, B, C and D must happen—the noble Lord shakes his head, but I had the privilege to sit in some of the negotiating discussions that have taken place and know that no Minister is saying that this is the prescription. That is what we would have done. All my life, that is what happened: it was not a question of whether an area wanted power over housing; it was a question of filling in 75 forms before building a council house. I had all those forms on my wall in the Department
of the Environment—70 forms, about the slope of the roof and the pitch of the eaves. That is what we did. And here we are talking about trying to impose some sort of structure of deal in the detail, which the Government are not going to do.
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In the big conurbations, the position is black and white. In the very different areas that make up much of rural England, or the mixed suburban areas, it is for the local people to come forward with a proposal. If they come forward with a proposal which simply says, “Give us the power and we’ll get on with it”, there is not a ghost of a chance that they will get a deal. The party opposite, which took as much power away as anybody, would not have given them a deal on that basis. So it is a waste of time pretending that they could have the sort of deal that they want without the change that is fundamental, which is to create leadership commensurate with these responsibilities.
It is for them. They will look at their circumstances, which will be very different, and they will design the leadership model they want. I am not a member of the Government, but I personally cannot conceive of a leadership model coming forward that does not involve a directly elected mayor. I had the privilege of advising the Conservative Party before the coalition Government and I was absolutely clear that there should be mayors, because I have seen it work all over the world—it does work and it is much better than what we have got in this country. However, if someone can come up with something that is credible and is able to persuade the Government that they can bear the responsibilities on offer to them, they may be successful, but it is for them, not for us. That is why I do not pretend to give a specific answer to the noble Lord, because I do not know of an answer that is other than the mayoral one. Somebody may think of one, so that would be looked at. Frankly, within six months, my guess is that this debate will have moved on so fast that we will know whether there are alternative structures that are acceptable.
For the vast majority of cases, my own view is that there will be mayors. From the more advanced conversations that are going on—largely among councillors who come from the parties opposite; they are the people making the pace, to be frank—my guess is that the mayoral model is the one that will survive and emerge. Four or five years from now, people will wonder what we were arguing about.
Lord Woolmer of Leeds: My Lords, the noble Lord spoke with great passion and is very well informed. For my own part of the country, West Yorkshire, I am very supportive of the proposal for elected mayors, but much of his argument was that there is no alternative to that wherever you are in the country; in other words, this model really ought to be adopted everywhere. If that is true, why does it not apply to individual local authorities? I am not advocating it, because I do not agree with it. For example, in my neck of the woods, you have Leeds, Bradford, Calderdale—which is Halifax—and Kirklees, which is Huddersfield and Wakefield. If the only way to run a local authority is to have an elected mayor, is the noble Lord saying that that applies to all major local authorities? As we
know, this legislation relates not to all services and local authority activity but to certain strategic powers, where the case that he makes with great passion and history is persuasive. However, if his arguments are generalised to imply that you can run a significant-sized authority only by having a mayor and you cannot get the same thing with what we now call the leader and cabinet model, is he advocating mayors within combined authority mayoralties?
Lord Heseltine: The noble Lord asks me for my personal opinion on that matter and I give him my answer: yes. I think that we would have been incomparably better over 50 years if, instead of taking power away from those authorities, we had concentrated on their leadership and performance. Yes, that would have meant differentiating in the early stages about the financial support that one entrusted them with, but it would have left them with the potential of the power that we have taken away. I have no doubt that if we could rewrite the last 50 years we would have seen much stronger local government. Frankly, for those of us who remember Redcliffe-Maud: well, he was right, wasn’t he?
Lord Scriven (LD): My Lords, I support Amendments 3 and 4. I have listened with interest to what the noble Lords, Lord Heseltine and Lord Deben, have said. The amendments are about flexibility—the whole point of devolution is flexibility—and the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, let the cat out of the bag when he said that you would only have a deal if you have a mayor. That is diktat, not a deal: it means that you have to have a particular model. In this new world of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, the conurbations of Leeds, Sheffield and others are coming back to a mayor. That is because they know that they can only have a deal with a mayor.
Not only politicians but business people said on BBC Radio Sheffield this morning, “We do not necessarily want a mayor. It is unfair that we are being told to have a mayor”— particularly only a few years after the people had a voice and said no. This is what Amendment 4 is about. What arrogance to say that this place knows what the better governance arrangements are for cities and conurbations elsewhere in this country. Again, it marks the political class as being distant from the people whose lives it wishes to improve.
I was surprised when the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, said that he was erecting a ladder for politicians to climb up—the very thing that local governments have done which has failed their areas. It was a very strange thing to say. Again quoting directly from what noble Lords have said, the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said that we need to do something new. As someone who led a council relatively recently, I agree. However, something new does not necessarily mean one issue in a straitjacket called a mayor.
Are mayors so successful? Tell that to the people of Doncaster, where the Government had to send in commissioners when they had—and still have—a mayor. Tell that to the people of Stoke-on-Trent and Hartlepool, who have voted to no longer have a directly elected mayor. Go down the road and tell that to the people of Tower Hamlets, who have a directly elected mayor.
It is not even a panacea internationally. Some cities in the USA have become bankrupt even though they have a directly elected mayor.
The amendment is not against directly elected mayors in areas where people wish to have them. I would not stop people who feel it appropriate and wish to have a directly elected mayor in their area from having one. However, it is arrogant to say to people who may come up with a new model that works for their area that they cannot have the powers because we have decided that their governance model is not correct. It is not only politicians who are saying that. The PwC report by Jon House, its head of local government and devolution, which was published only a couple of weeks ago, said that you have fallen into the trap of moving away from innovation and outcomes when you enforce one model of governance and people start talking about that.
I support the amendments. Amendment 3 gives flexibility and allows for the kind of innovation that the noble Lords, Lord Heseltine and Lord Deben, have talked about—I am sure other models will emerge. Secondly, what kind of Bill sets out the way a locality is governed and administered on the people’s behalf, but does not ask the people what they think about it?
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb (GP): My Lords, I rise to speak in support of the amendment as one of the very few people in this House—I exclude the noble Lord, Lord Tope—who has had up close experience of the two London mayors we have had over the past 15 years. I can assure noble Lords that the system works sometimes, but not always, so to make it a compulsory element is absolutely nonsensical. Some of the language used here is a bit misleading. Talking about an elected Mayor of London as local government is a complete nonsense because it is not local government, it is regional government. The whole point of the Mayor of London is that he or she is not a local politician; they are a regional politician with responsibility for the strategic oversight of the area to which they are elected. Sometimes it works and sometimes it fails. It has failed spectacularly in London on our housing stock. The fact that we are so short of affordable and social housing is, I think, a failure of the mayor. As I say, this is not about local government, but strategic regional government.
I can assure noble Lords that making an elected mayor compulsory is nonsensical. It all depends on the talents and abilities of the person, and I would argue that while it has worked for some issues, for people here to say, “It is the answer because it is modern, innovative and fresh thinking”, is complete nonsense. Please do not be fooled; rather, accept that a mayor should be an optional extra, not compulsory.
Baroness Janke (LD): My Lords, I too rise to support Amendments 3 and 4, and to echo some of the comments that have already been made. This is actually about choice. The Minister has rightly said that the Bill is not prescriptive, and yet it is highly prescriptive when it talks about mayors. We can see different forms of leadership working well in other parts of the country. We talk about international cities and Europe, but mayors in France are not directly elected; they are the
top person on the list. People in other cities elect their leaders in different ways. Some call them mayors and some do not, and as I say, some of them are not directly elected.
We heard last week from colleagues who said that in their area of the country, a mayor would be entirely inappropriate. Indeed, the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, has explained how it would be unacceptable and inappropriate in her own area. I would say that if we are in favour of no prescription, we should allow innovative forms of leadership to emerge in different parts of the country. We should not try to impose a certain form and say that people will not have powers if they do not adopt a mayor.
Perhaps I may talk briefly about the noble Lord, Lord Deben, and his rewriting of the history of the city of Bristol. I should point out at the start that the successes of Bristol have been well known for a long time. For the past 10 to 15 years it has been the most successful city outside London. It has the highest GDP per head of population of any English city except London and it is the European Green Capital, something that emerged through my own administration and has been carried on by the mayor. Certainly, there was instability of government when the Labour Party lost its majority on the city council, but that is no different from what has happened in many other places. Indeed, the city ran a successful three-party coalition for 18 months. I led that coalition, so it is no good the noble Lord shaking his head; that is indeed what happened—
Lord Deben: I worked with Bristol over a long period and it was one of the most difficult councils to deal with. Bristol succeeded in spite of its local government rather than because of it, and now it is succeeding because of it. That is the change.
Baroness Janke: Again, that is a rather selective rewriting of history. If you speak to the leaders of any of the three parties in Bristol, they will say that there have been successes by all the parties and they are united in being proud of their city. But as happens in national government, there can be differences of view and policy, and I do not believe that the very bad impression given by the noble Lord is at all just or reasonable.
The most important thing about these new measures is that we should address the powers. Much as we applaud what is happening in Manchester and other areas, if you were to speak to the mayor of Toulouse or the mayor of Hannover, one of Bristol’s twin cities, and say, “We are going to finance your area by giving you predetermined, formula-determined grants in sealed envelopes; you will have no power to raise your own capital or to raise revenue; and you will have no other powers than those that the Government give you”, they would be horrified. This is not the spirit of devolution.
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Devolution is about trusting people and giving them powers where they have scope and can use their energy, creativity and innovation to take forward projects that can make their economic area more prosperous. It is not about giving people conditions or requiring
local government to have to employ legions of lawyers to work out the various agreements and restricting conditions. Whether we are looking at LEPs or future arrangements, we need to set our cities free. We need to allow them to select their own form of leadership. A mayor may or may not be appropriate, but certainly many parts of the country will not find it appropriate. In support of both amendments, I say that we should liberate local government and give it powers. We should let it have its vision and regenerate its own areas in the way it has wanted to do for so long.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con): My Lords, first, the Bill confers a discretion on the Secretary of State which is not restricted in any way whatever. Therefore, to say that this Bill is restrictive and that the amendments are intended to increase the discretion does not seem to be in accordance with the wording. Secondly, there are two powers in proposed new Section 107B, under Clause 1, providing for the election of a mayor under subsections (1) and (3). For some reason, these amendments apply only to subsection (1). That is rather strange. There may be a reason for that and if so, I would be glad to hear it.
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, Amendment 3 would set out in the Bill that the introduction of a mayor for a combined authority area would not be a precondition for the transfer of functions to combined authorities. We had a very lively debate on this amendment in Committee and we have had another very lively debate today. In that context, I am not surprised that we are considering the amendment.
I have been very clear on the Government’s policy on the devolution of far-reaching powers to local areas. I think we can all agree that if areas are to have such powers they must adopt strong governance and accountability arrangements. As my noble friend Lord Heseltine said, it is not for us to come up with the proposals. It is a bottom-up process, and we want to hear from areas what their proposals are for the powers and budgets they want devolved to them, and the governance arrangements that they think are necessary to support such devolution. As my noble friend Lord Deben said, we need something new.
What sort of governance arrangements will be necessary—the scale and scope of the powers—will depend on the sort of proposals put forward. Last week, in his Budget speech in the other place, the Chancellor was very clear when he stated:
“The historic devolution that we have agreed with Greater Manchester in return for a directly elected Mayor is available to other cities that want to go down a similar path”.—[Official Report, Commons, 8/7/15; col. 329.]
Our policy is therefore clear and this amendment is directly at odds with it.
We have this policy for good reasons. We have it because where there is devolution of the ambition and scale as in Greater Manchester, there needs to be a clear, single point of accountability. People need to know who is responsible for the major decisions in their area—decisions which will affect their daily lives.
My noble friend Lord Deben highlighted the importance of there being real change in local government. That is why we committed so clearly in our manifesto
to legislate to implement the Greater Manchester deal and to offer similar deals to other cities that choose to have a mayor. The Bill, with its provisions on mayors, allows us to implement the Greater Manchester deal and fulfil our manifesto commitment. The amendment would, in fact, frustrate it.
As other noble Lords have said, mayoral governance for cities is a proven model that works around the world. It provides a single point of accountability. As my noble friend Lord Deben said, it has made a big difference to Bristol. When the office of the Mayor of London was created there was not much excitement across the country. As either my noble friend Lord Heseltine or my noble friend Lord Deben said—I cannot remember who it was—it is now seen as a force for progress in our capital.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab): Is it not the case, however, that the election of the Mayor of London was preceded by a referendum where the people of London chose to have government in London and an elected mayor—by, if I remember correctly, a two-thirds majority?
Baroness Williams of Trafford: That is correct. I am making a point not about referenda but about the profile and remit of the Mayor of London and how it is now something that people with a very high-profile background in both local and national government wish to go for.
I must say at this point that a mayoral model is not an imposition: it has to be agreed. No order can be made to transfer powers and create new governance arrangements without the consent of all authorities involved. The Secretary of State is not imposing a mayor on anyone, but he wants to see accountability proportionate to the scale of the devolution of powers. That we have this offer does not preclude us from engaging with all areas, cities, towns and counties to consider their proposals for devolution. Quite the contrary: we are ready to have conversations with anyone. The Bill does not limit in any way the devolution proposals that areas can make, and the Government will consider any and all proposals for greater local powers. In short, our clear policy is that the Government,
“intends to support towns and counties to play their part in growing the economy, offering them the opportunity to agree devolution deals, and providing local people with the levers they need to boost growth”.
That was made clear in the Budget.
Lord Grocott: If what the Minister says is accurate in practice—that any proposal from below, or however you want to describe it, is entirely up to local initiative and will go ahead if there is agreement—presumably she can agree with Amendment 3. She is arguing that it is basically a permissive thing: that mayors may or may not be there, dependent on local initiatives. So I assume from what she said that she would not be in any way opposed to Amendment 3.
Baroness Williams of Trafford: I will address the noble Lord’s point shortly.
Amendment 4 would insert a new subsection into new Section 107B to allow the Secretary of State to refuse to make an order providing for there to be a
mayor if the proposal put forward by the area does not provide sufficient democratic accountability, does not have the support of local authority electors or would risk the proper functioning of local government in the area. Not only is this unnecessary, given that the Secretary of State always has a judgment as to whether to make an order; it does not reflect the context in which the provisions of the Bill will be used: to implement bespoke devolution deals agreed with areas—to be precise, agreed with those democratically elected to represent the area and who are accountable to it through the ballot box. It would be quite wrong to have considerations for devolution deals that in some way sought to have the Secretary of State second-guessing those local democratically elected representatives, or turning discussion of the deal into some sort of tick-box exercise.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Is the Minister saying, therefore, that the factors in proposed paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) in Amendment 4 would be irrelevant considerations that the Secretary of State would not be entitled to take into account?
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I am saying that it will be an agreement between the Secretary of State and local electors that will determine what the deal looks like, if that helps.
Noble Lords: Combined authority areas.
Baroness Williams of Trafford: I am sorry—combined authority areas. I apologise; this debate has gone on for a while.
I wish to address some of the points that noble Lords raised. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, talked about the mayor not having capacity to fulfil all functions. As my noble friend Lord Heseltine said, that is common practice in cities across the world which seem to manage to fulfil this perfectly well. However, the mayor will have power to delegate functions to a deputy mayor or officers to ensure that responsibilities are properly fulfilled. Crucially, regardless of whether a particular power is delegated, the mayor is, and is widely seen to be, accountable for the exercise of that power.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also talked about areas coming forward with their own ideas on governance. As I have said on many an occasion, we are ready to have a conversation with any area about its governance proposals alongside its proposals for power to be devolved to it. The governance needs to be proportionate to the powers, delivering accountability and the necessary transparency.
The noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Shipley, asked the crucial question: what is something less? As I said, the form of governance needs to be proportionate to the scope and nature of the power being devolved. Where less than major powers are devolved, because that is all an area wishes for, the existing governance of an area may be appropriate. Again, depending on the nature of powers devolved, a combined authority, with the governance combined authorities have today, may be appropriate—that is, governance by the leaders of the area collectively. However, with major powers there needs to be a single point of accountability, and that is provided by a directly elected individual.
Baroness Jones of Moulsecoomb: Does the Minister agree that, when you have this much power vested in one person, you also need a very good system of accountability and scrutiny? Here in London that has not happened enough. As a member of the London body, I know that we have not had enough powers. Is that something the Government are thinking about?
Baroness Williams of Trafford: The noble Baroness’s question is the subject of later amendments. Certainly, the London model is not being considered in Greater Manchester. However, during the Bill’s passage, there has been a lot of discussion on the need to strengthen scrutiny.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: Before the Minister moves on, will she clarify what is included in “major powers”? What are major powers and less than major powers or minor powers? That is the dividing line in this matter.
Baroness Williams of Trafford: As noble Lords will see, an example of major powers is devolution for Greater Manchester. That is an example of a suite of major powers.
I should like to make some progress. The noble Lord, Lord Grocott, referred to Amendment 3, which would obstruct our policy of allowing major powers to be devolved to a city because there is a necessary single point of accountability—that is, the mayor. The noble Lord also said that people should have a referendum to decide whether to have a metro mayor. We recognise that in the past some cities have rejected the opportunity to elect a mayor. This time it is an entirely different proposition. It is about putting in place a devolution deal which the democratically elected representatives of the place have agreed with government. Part of that deal is the necessity for robust local governance for the new devolved powers, and for a powerful point of accountability such as a mayor. It is for the elected representatives of an area who have a democratic mandate to decide, in discussions with government, whether they wish to introduce a mayor and benefit from major devolved powers.
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I will address the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven—if not, he will stand up, I am sure. He said that the amendment only allows flexibility. That is not the case. The Bill already gives total flexibility as to what the deal can be. The amendment introduces a straitjacket to the kind of deal that can be put in place. Under the amendment, an area may be interested in having powers devolved of a kind where a mayor would provide that necessary single point of accountability, but this could no longer be the basis of a deal.
The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, talked about us imposing a model of governance. It is entirely the opposite. The Bill does not seek to impose governance models. As the Bill has progressed and we have had arguments about what can and cannot be had, I have always said that we are interested in hearing from all areas about all different types of proposals. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, pointed out why the Bill does not impose a model of governance.
Lord Scriven: If, for example, my own area of Sheffield decides to go for this with a mayor and it is then not deemed to be as successful as some of the proponents want and the public and the politicians in that area wish to move away from the mayoral model, what would be the procedure to do that—to prove that it was not an imposition, that actually it was a deal, it was voluntary and could be withdrawn from by both the public and the politicians of that area?
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, if a local area agreed a process with government and it was done through a parliamentary process, that local area would then have to go back to Parliament in some way and say that the local electors did not wish to have this any more. I am not going to stand here and prescribe a particular set of circumstances in which a particular area may not wish what it had agreed with government to continue to be the case. Having agreed it through a parliamentary process, it would have to go back through that parliamentary process and explain why the local electors no longer wished for it to be the case.
The noble Baroness, Lady Janke, talked about predetermined grants in envelopes. As I say, I have spent the entire Bill demonstrating that this is not the case. Nothing is predetermined. That has caused confusion in some ways in that there has been constant pushback on me to prescribe, and we are not prescribing. I hope that with these explanations the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Shipley: The Minister said two separate things. The first was that it was for local areas to come up with proposals for devolution and the Government were keen to hear what those were. Secondly, she said that to have major powers devolved requires a mayor, and she gave Greater Manchester as an example. Does the Minister have a list of the powers that can be devolved without an elected mayor and those that can be devolved only if there is an elected mayor? It seems absolutely central to this issue because at the moment it is not clear—certainly not to me and, I suspect, others in your Lordships’ House—exactly what the Government’s offer is.
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I do not and will not have a list. As I have said repeatedly, what powers are devolved will be up to agreement between local areas and the Secretary of State.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this has been an extensive and good debate and the time moves on, so forgive me if I do not respond to each point that noble Lords have made, whether it was as a trip through history about what has happened to elected mayors or the stage that we have reached today. The problems with the London system, some of the time, and the difficulties that other areas have found were mentioned.
I would like to challenge the proposition that the amendments are wrecking amendments. I am bound to say to the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, that that really is not the case. It was not the intent and is not their substance. If we look at the thrust of all the amendments that are before us today and will be on Wednesday, they are overwhelmingly about trying to
improve the Bill and achieve the very thing that he wants and campaigns for. It is unhelpful to characterise these amendments as wrecking when, in total, we are trying to improve the Bill so that devolution can be delivered across the country.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked the pertinent questions about major powers—what is in and what is out—and of course we got the usual answer. I do not think that anybody sees it as a credible response to say that nothing is being imposed on people because the Bill is a framework Bill, in circumstances where the Government make it absolutely clear from the start that you can get certain powers only if you have an elected mayor. That is not a process of not imposing anything on anybody. It is making sure that the price paid is very clear up front, in some circumstances. It is very unclear in other circumstances what price will be asked, depending on what powers are available. I am bound to say that whether we are in favour of or against elected mayors instinctively, we did not see it as a ladder up which budding leaders could climb—and even less so a retirement job for ex-Cabinet Ministers. I did not think that that was the process we were involved in today.
The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, made a powerful speech reiterating his passion for devolution and what it could lead to. We support all that but he himself said that if somebody comes up with something it will be considered, so seemingly from his point of view there is not an inevitable imposition of an elected mayor. The noble Lord may feel that something credible would not come up, and he may or may not be right. But even he seemed to recognise that there should be scope, which is effectively what Amendment 3 is seeking. It may be, in the terms used by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, that the wording is imperfect but then it is the job of government at Third Reading to tie that up.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern: I am sorry to interrupt—it is not my habit—but the present Bill simply gives a discretion to the Minister, absolutely free. There is no limit on that discretion to having an elected mayor. It is a discretion to consider the particular proposals made. I understood the Government to have said in the debate that the idea of an elected mayor, while very attractive from their point of view, was not essential for every proposal that might come forward.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, we accept that there is a discretion but we know that that discretion will inevitably be operated in certain ways in certain circumstances. The Government will insist upon an elected mayor and the discretion, which I accept is permitted under the Bill, will be exercised in a certain way. This is about trying to get clarity or preclude that being an inevitable part of a deal. If somebody wants an elected mayor and can put forward governance arrangements and credibility around all that, fine. But if they do not, why should that not inevitably be considered fairly by the Government in the negotiations which go on?
Lord Mackay of Clashfern: Nothing that I have seen anywhere so far says that the Government can give powers under these proposals only if there is an
elected mayor. It is left completely open. All this seems to be based on is some suggestion that that is what the Government want to do. However, the Government have proposed a Bill that does not have that in it. I cannot myself see why that discretion should be limited.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: The noble and learned Lord is right that there is a discretion in the Bill, but we know, alongside that, that the Government have made it absolutely clear that an elected mayor will be insisted upon in a range of circumstances. We are seeking to determine that that insistence should be precluded, not that the option should not be available, if that is what a combined area wants. The starting point should not be that you must have an elected mayor in that range of circumstances.
It seems that there is some recognition that there should be discretion for combined authorities to come forward—the Minister has said that. It is all very well recognising that, but at the same time they are saying, in this place and in the Chancellor’s Statement at the other end, that you have to have an elected mayor, come what may. There is an inconsistency between those positions, and this amendment is trying to clarify that inconsistency. We do not think that there should be that insistence. If people want this and can come forward with a credible model, fine; but if the starting point of these deals is that you must have an elected mayor, that is wrong and we oppose it.
This a great shame because there is substantial agreement across the Chamber, I think, about the thrust of the Bill. The one point where it jars is this obsession and insistence on an elected mayor—not in the Bill itself but in terms of how we know it will be applied and how we know it is being applied in the case of Greater Manchester and other areas. That is the point that divides us. Given the support that we have across the piece for the Bill, it is a great shame that we have to divide on this, but I propose to divide and test the opinion of the House.
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Contents 240; Not-Contents 175.
CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allan of Hallam, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Armstrong of Hill Top, B.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, B.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L. [Teller]
Beecham, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bradley, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brinton, B.
Brookman, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Cashman, L.
Chester, Bp.
Chidgey, L.
Christopher, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Collins of Highbury, L.
Cotter, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Donaghy, B.
Donoughue, L.
Doocey, B.
Drake, B.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Gale, B.
Garden of Frognal, B.
German, L.
Glasgow, E.
Goddard of Stockport, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grantchester, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenfield, B.
Grender, B.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanworth, V.
Hardie, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haughey, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayman, B.
Hayter of Kentish Town, B.
Healy of Primrose Hill, B.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Humphreys, B.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hussain, L.
Hussein-Ece, B.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janke, B.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jolly, B.
Jones, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Moulsecoomb, B.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of Cradley, B.
Kennedy of Southwark, L.
King of Bow, B.
Kinnock, L.
Kinnock of Holyhead, B.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Weymouth, L.
Kramer, B.
Lawrence of Clarendon, B.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lennie, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Liddell of Coatdyke, B.
Liddle, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lister of Burtersett, B.
Loomba, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
Ludford, B.
McAvoy, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of River Glaven, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McFall of Alcluith, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Manzoor, B.
Mar, C.
Marks of Henley-on-Thames, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Meacher, B.
Mendelsohn, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Monks, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Ely, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Newby, L. [Teller]
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Northover, B.
Nye, B.
Paddick, L.
Palmer of Childs Hill, L.
Parminter, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prescott, L.
Prosser, B.
Purvis of Tweed, L.
Quin, B.
Radice, L.
Randerson, B.
Rea, L.
Rebuck, B.
Reid of Cardowan, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Scriven, L.
Sharkey, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sherlock, B.
Shipley, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Singh of Wimbledon, L.
Smith of Basildon, B.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Newnham, B.
Soley, L.
Stevenson of Balmacara, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Stoneham of Droxford, L.
Strasburger, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Thornton, B.
Tope, L.
Touhig, L.
Triesman, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Tyler, L.
Tyler of Enfield, B.
Uddin, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
West of Spithead, L.
Wheeler, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Baglan, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willis of Knaresborough, L.
Wills, L.
Winston, L.
Wood of Anfield, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wrigglesworth, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
NOT CONTENTS
Aberdare, L.
Ahmad of Wimbledon, L.
Altmann, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Ashton of Hyde, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Balfe, L.
Bates, L.
Berkeley of Knighton, L.
Berridge, B.
Bew, L.
Bilimoria, L.
Black of Brentwood, L.
Blencathra, L.
Bourne of Aberystwyth, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bridges of Headley, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, L.
Browning, B.
Caithness, E.
Callanan, L.
Carrington of Fulham, L.
Cathcart, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chisholm of Owlpen, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Cooper of Windrush, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cormack, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dear, L.
Deben, L.
Deech, B.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dunlop, L.
Eaton, B.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Bowes Park, B.
Farmer, L.
Faulks, L.
Fellowes of West Stafford, L.
Fink, L.
Finkelstein, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Framlingham, L.
Freeman, L.
Freud, L.
Gardiner of Kimble, L. [Teller]
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Glendonbrook, L.
Gold, L.
Goldie, B.
Goodlad, L.
Grade of Yarmouth, L.
Green of Deddington, L.
Green of Hurstpierpoint, L.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Harries of Pentregarth, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Helic, B.
Heseltine, L.
Heyhoe Flint, B.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Abinger, B.
Holmes of Richmond, L.
Hooper, B.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Horam, L.
Howard of Lympne, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Kennington, B.
Jopling, L.
Keen of Elie, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kirkham, L.
Laming, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Leach of Fairford, L.
Leigh of Hurley, L.
Lexden, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livingston of Parkhead, L.
Lothian, M.
Lucas, L.
Luce, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mawhinney, L.
Mawson, L.
Mobarik, B.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Nash, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Neville-Rolfe, B.
Newlove, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Loan, B.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palumbo, L.
Patel, L.
Patten, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Popat, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prior of Brampton, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Bletso, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sassoon, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Shackleton of Belgravia, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheikh, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Sherbourne of Didsbury, L.
Shields, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Spicer, L.
Stedman-Scott, B.
Stirrup, L.
Stowell of Beeston, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Suri, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L. [Teller]
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
True, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Wakeham, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Warsi, B.
Wasserman, L.
Wheatcroft, B.
Williams of Trafford, B.
Younger of Leckie, V.
5.41 pm
Schedule 1: Mayors for combined authority areas: further provision about elections
5: Schedule 1, page 13, line 12, at end insert—
“(1) The term of office of a mayor is to be four years.
(2) The first election for the return of a mayor is to take place on the first day of ordinary elections of councillors of a constituent council to take place after the end of the period of 6 months beginning with the day on which the order under section 107A comes into force.
(3) Subsequent elections for the return of a mayor are to take place in every fourth year thereafter on the same day as the ordinary election of councillors of that constituent council.
(4) But this paragraph has effect subject to any provision made under paragraph 2.
(5) In this paragraph “constituent council” means—
(a) a county council the whole or any part of whose area is within the area of the combined authority, or
(b) a district council whose area is within the area of the combined authority.”
Baroness Williams of Trafford: Amendment 5 sets a default term of office for an elected mayor of a combined authority area and a default date of the election for the return of an elected mayor for a combined authority area. Amendment 8 is a minor and technical amendment.
As the Bill currently stands, the term of office and the date of election are set by order by the Secretary of State. Following the comments of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee and an amendment brought forward by the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Beecham, in Committee, we wish to include default provisions in the Bill to apply in cases where specific orders are not made.
The Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee suggested that the Bill’s order-making powers should be limited to specifying the timing and frequency of metro mayor elections only at the initial establishment of the office of mayor. We do not believe it right to limit the order-making power in this way, as I shall explain, but to provide some assurance that with Amendment 5 we are following the precedent in the Local Government Act 2000, which was referred to by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. It provides in the Bill default timings of mayoral elections and the mayoral term. Equally, to retain the flexibility needed, the Secretary of State will be able to make specific orders under paragraphs 2(a) and 2(c) of new Schedule 5B to the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. The amendments providing for the default position in no way curtail the scope of the order-making powers in Schedule 5B.
The ability for the Secretary of State to set the timings of elections by order allows for the fact that there is currently no single pattern of local elections across the country with which a new mayoral election may be synchronised. It also recognises that devolution deals will be bespoke, and therefore it is possible that different arrangements may be sought by, and agreed with, different areas. For example, an area may wish its mayoral election to be held in a year when there are no council elections, but another area may wish to combine mayoral and council elections. Again, for example, while we expect that probably most deals with metro mayors will have mayoral terms of four years, it is possible that an area may wish to have, say, five-year terms similar to the parliamentary term.
Returning to the default position that we are providing, it reflects that in general a mayoral term will be four years and the election will take place at the same time as council elections in the combined authority area. Hence, under the default provisions, the first election of the mayor will take place at the next local council elections not less than six months after the order creating the mayoral combined authority comes into force, and elections will be every four years thereafter.
Amendment 8 is a minor and technical amendment to ensure that the provision in the Bill applies equally to the disqualification of an individual in respect of their being, or being elected as, a mayor, as well as more specifically in relation to their being, or being elected as, the mayor for that area.