Much mention has been made of the Scottish independence referendum: how that came about, whether it was opportunism by the SNP, or whether the Conservative Government were somewhat asleep
on the job. It took place, and noble Lords have pointed to it and suggested that we should learn a great deal from it. However, just as the franchise used in Scotland was a matter for the Scottish Parliament to determine, I suggest that the franchise for elections and referendums that affect the whole of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a matter for this Parliament to decide. As I am sure noble Lords would accept, a decision of the Scottish Parliament does not and should not prevent this Parliament taking a different approach; the example of Scottish guardians is a particularly vivid illustration.
During the course of this debate there was an interesting use of the concept of a precedent. It is said that this referendum is exceptional, and in one sense it is. However, at the same time the argument seems to be that the decisions of the Scottish Parliament after a referendum involving 16 and 17 year-olds provide a clear precedent and indicate that the franchise should be lowered for this referendum. Yet apparently, as I understand it, the Labour Party will not argue that this will therefore lead to any proposed change in the franchise for a general election. This sits rather uneasily with the argument in Committee, which was, essentially, that the genie was out of the bottle and that once you had allowed 16 year-olds to vote in the Scottish Parliament, the argument was all over. I suggest that we need to look at the argument carefully to consider whether it is right for this country.
Noble Lords have pointed to the difference, but surely, devolution by its very nature gives rise to the possibility of difference. It does not mean that we should necessarily harmonise. The fact that people may do certain things in Scotland aged 16—get married without parental consent, formally change their name, access their birth records if adopted—does not mean that the same rules must or should apply across the United Kingdom.
It is said, correctly, that the poll is exceptional and will affect 16 and 17 year-olds for longer. Noble Lords have suggested that, because the vote will—or should, in view of what the Prime Minister has said—affect everybody in this country for the rest of their lives, that means that 16 and 17 year-olds ought to have a say. But of course, without being frivolous in any way, it follows that 14 and 15 year-olds will have to live with the outcome for longer, and no one is seriously suggesting, except in order to illustrate the argument, that they should be allowed to vote.
We heard about the response of most democracies to the voting age. It is 18 in all the countries in the European Union except Austria. I leave aside Cuba and other interesting examples of democracies. It is also the voting age that has been applied in other exceptional circumstances. In 2011, when the public voted in a referendum with similarly lasting constitutional significance—namely, the voting system used to elect Members of the other place—where was the cry for 16 year-olds then?
Does the decision that we will make with this referendum outweigh in importance all other decisions that Parliament comes to? I suggest that the answer is: not necessarily. For example, there is the decision that in England all those under 18 must be in education or training, yet we do not allow individuals under 18 years
of age to participate in parliamentary elections. We have to draw a line somewhere where the voting age is concerned, and I accept that there is always an element of arbitrariness about it. However, arbitrary though it is, it is one that hitherto has generally received approval.
It is said that young people have shown signs of engagement and political activity—for example, in the Scottish referendum—and that this indicates their readiness to vote. However, recent YouGov polling suggested that only 56% of 16 year-olds said that they would like to be able to vote, and that figure decreased to 42% of 17 year-olds and 36% of 18 year-olds. Using democratic engagement and the burst of enthusiasm that there seems to have been, or the lack of it, as the basis for giving or denying the vote would set a very odd precedent. There are of course many 50 year-olds who are not politically engaged, but that does not mean that we are going to disfranchise them. Simply lowering the voting age will not necessarily increase levels of democratic engagement among all young people.
I turn now to the complexity associated with the age of majority and the need to draw a line. Scientific study of the adolescent brain has yet to identify an obvious point at which we can distinguish between adolescents and adults. There is a considerably held view that it is not until the age of 25 that the adult brain reaches its ultimate state of maturity, so we look at the broader framework. A number of noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Ridley and Lord Blencathra, did not think that at 16 young people were ready to vote. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel—few have more concern about and knowledge of 16 and 17 year-olds—also took that view.
We should not underestimate the gravity of voting. One can say that it is all great fun, we can join in and it is good to enthuse, but it is a huge responsibility. It is a momentous occasion for every individual, and of course a 16 year-old, given the chance to vote, will and should take it very seriously. However, we have to ask ourselves whether, in our desire to enthuse 16 and 17 year-olds, we may be in danger of placing too great a responsibility on them.
Lord Morgan (Lab): My Lords, is it not extraordinarily patronising to young people to suggest that they will somehow regard voting as being like a university rag and not a serious intellectual and civil responsibility?
Lord Faulks: That is precisely the point that I am not making. The point I am making is that they will not, and should not, regard it trivially. The question is whether it is appropriate for us to burden them with a responsibility which they will no doubt take seriously. It is not a question of simply saying, “This is a good thing for them to do. Therefore, we should grant them that right”.
Baroness Thornton (Lab): A person’s mental ability has never been taken into account when considering their right to vote, so is the noble Lord getting on to dangerous ground here? People who lack mental ability still have the right to vote. Surely he is not saying that they should not have the right to vote because they may not have that maturity.
Lord Faulks: The noble Baroness is right in the sense that we do not assess mental capacity before deciding whether somebody might vote. That is correct. However, when we take the difficult decision on where to draw the line—on whether the voting age should be 18, 16 or 21—we are entitled to inform ourselves generally about individuals’ state of development to see generally what a typical adolescent might be like.
Lord Tyler: Will the noble Lord tell us whether he has seen the film “Suffragette”? The argument that he has just been advancing was the argument for not giving women the vote until after the First World War and then for not extending it to those under the age of 28. Those arguments were deployed by his contemporaries, as it were, of that period.
Lord Faulks: I am afraid that I have not had enough time to see the film, but any argument about where you draw a line could be simply dismissed as one that has been used hitherto in different circumstances. I am concerned about whether giving these particular young people the vote is appropriate.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill (LD): I am sure that the noble Lord does not wish to be offensive but the last time I heard arguments about brains and capacity was in Jackson, Mississippi, with the Ku Klux Klan showing me charts of the average Negro brain compared with a white brain. Does he not realise that arguments of that kind are deeply offensive?
Lord Faulks: I resent the noble Lord’s suggestion. We are engaging in an argument about whether to lower the voting age. Seeking comparisons with the Ku Klux Klan is entirely inappropriate and I reject it.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: On the point about suffragettes, would it be worth reminding the Benches opposite that it was Asquith and Lloyd George who consistently denied women the vote, the reason being that they thought it would upset the men and lose votes. That was exactly the kind of opportunism that we are seeing here today from the Liberal Benches.
Lord Faulks: I said at the beginning of my remarks that I did not think it was appropriate to try to guess how 16 and 17 year-olds would vote. In fact, it would probably be a mistake even to begin to speculate—we would probably be wrong about it. Although I am grateful for the interruption, that is not the issue that I am trying to engage upon.
Baroness Crawley (Lab): Does the noble Lord accept as fact that this cohort of 16 and 17 year-olds is extremely mature and culturally aware? More than 45% of young people in this cohort will go to university or on to further education, whereas 60 years ago 5% of them did so. We have an extremely developed and mature 16 and 17 year-old cohort.
Lord Faulks: I am afraid that I cannot accept facts baldly stated—engagingly stated though they are.
The answer is that many more people than before are being educated, and it is a different debate as to whether this is appropriate—
Lord Faulks: Perhaps I could have a chance to answer the question first.
Baroness Crawley: Would the noble Lord accept the facts from the House of Commons Library?
Lord Faulks: I am not sure that it is going to enlighten the House very much if we try to decide how well educated or not well educated these young people are. One of the arguments was that young people spend a great deal of time on the internet or go travelling. The answer is that some 16 and 17 year-olds are extremely intelligent and well informed; others are not. The bigger point is whether, looking at them as a cohort, they have changed radically since, for example, Parliament considered this matter in the round in debating the Representation of the People Bill.
Lord Blunkett (Lab): This is my first ever intervention and I ought to explain to the House that I am a convert to the idea of 16 and 17 year-olds being able to vote. The great benefit regarding this particular cohort is that at least many of them, although not as many as I would wish, will have benefited from citizenship education in school, which is more than can be said for the vast majority of the population.
Lord Faulks: I am honoured to have been intervened on by the noble Lord, and I hear what he says.
I was endeavouring to address the House on the Representation of the People Act 1969, which was brought in by the party opposite when it was in power. At that stage, the question was whether to lower the voting age from 21 to 18. The debates in this House ranged over the issues that one would expect. Often, amendments were put forward suggesting that it be lowered only to the age of 20. There was no suggestion that it should be lowered to the age of 16. What has changed so fundamentally about adolescence between then and now?
6 pm
Baroness Young of Old Scone: I can tell the Minister what the difference is between then and now. The difference is that, now, we have a well-fed, well-educated set of 16 and 17 year-olds who are vastly more mature than I was at that age, and that was 40 years ago. Let us get on with the present.
Lord Faulks: Let me turn to something that may excite the party opposite slightly less, which is the question of what may happen in practical terms if there is a change of franchise. The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said that with a fair wind these matters could easily be accommodated—I hope that she will forgive me if I summarise what she said. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, was, I think, suggesting that I had in
some way misquoted the Electoral Commission, but I do not think that that is a fair accusation. Let me make entirely clear what the Electoral Commission said in its publication yesterday. The commission states that it is not the case that there must be a 12-month period between a change to the franchise and the referendum, or indeed any fixed period. Reports in the media that refer to the 12-month period are incorrect.
I ask the House’s indulgence while I quote accurately one paragraph from that publication:
“It is important that Parliament is aware that if the annual canvass does not fall before the electoral event that a franchise change applies to, a key opportunity is missed to get the new group of voters registered. This does not mean, however, that other options are not available to help get as many voters as possible on the register in the available timeframe. Although the scale of the challenge presented by some of these options should not be underestimated—and it must be borne in mind that every voter is now required to register themselves individually—this does not mean that steps cannot be taken to reduce the risks presented by them with proper planning and funding”.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab): I just want to ask a factual question. Can the noble Lord say whether or not the annual canvass could be brought forward? I have no idea.
Lord Faulks: I have no idea of the answer to that question. The Electoral Commission will no doubt do its best, as I said in Committee, to follow what Parliament decides should be the franchise. It is also the case that, once the Bill receives Royal Assent, there are things that can be done, notwithstanding that there are various steps necessary to implement the legislation; for example, setting the referendum date and the start date. It is a very considerable undertaking involving a great many people.
I echo the point made my noble friend Lord Forsyth that being left off the register is considered a matter of considerable importance. Although there can be a campaign to increase awareness, there is a real risk that this matter would not be achieved in a satisfactory way, notwithstanding the willingness of the Electoral Commission to assist.
Legislation as momentous as this must command consensus in both Houses and the country as a whole. Reference was made to a recent amendment voted on in this House to the Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill to allow 16 year-olds to vote: that was reversed by the House of Commons yesterday by a substantial majority.
A change of this sort needs substantial legislation; it is a very important change. We have decided that the appropriate franchise is the one that has pertained satisfactorily in previous referenda and general elections, one that pertains in every country in the EU except Austria. There may come a time for change, when we lower the age to 16. There may be a debate to be had. This is not the moment for that debate.
Baroness Morgan of Ely: I thank noble Lords for participating in this debate. I have listened very carefully to the arguments put forward by the Minister and by others.
The one thing that we can all agree on is the need for us, at some point, to generally tidy up the inconsistencies around when young people are considered legally responsible for various aspects of their lives. But that is not the point of this amendment. Young people are the future of this nation. This is their one chance to have a say in this country’s relationship with the European Union. It is an exceptional case. They will have to live with the consequences of the result for longer than anyone. Let us show them that we have confidence in them, and that we respect them and their opinions. Let us give them a vote in the EU referendum.
I am not convinced by the arguments put forward by the Minister. Therefore, I would like to test the opinion of the House.
6.06 pm
Contents 293; Not-Contents 211.
CONTENTS
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allan of Hallam, L.
Allen of Kensington, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Armstrong of Hill Top, B.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bakewell, B.
Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, B.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L. [Teller]
Beecham, L.
Benjamin, B.
Berkeley, L.
Berkeley of Knighton, L.
Best, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bichard, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blair of Boughton, L.
Blunkett, L.
Boateng, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bradley, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brinton, B.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burnett, L.
Burt of Solihull , B.
Campbell of Pittenweem, L.
Campbell of Surbiton, B.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Cashman, L.
Chandos, V.
Chidgey, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Collins of Highbury, L.
Condon, L.
Corston, B.
Cotter, L.
Coussins, B.
Crawley, B.
Crisp, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Davies of Stamford, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Donaghy, B.
Doocey, B.
Drake, B.
Drayson, L.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Eames, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ford, B.
Foster of Bath , L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fox, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gale, B.
Garden of Frognal, B.
German, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glasman, L.
Goddard of Stockport, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grender, B.
Grey-Thompson, B.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Hanworth, V.
Harries of Pentregarth, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haughey, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayter of Kentish Town, B.
Healy of Primrose Hill, B.
Henig, B.
Hennessy of Nympsfield, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollins, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Humphreys, B.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hussein-Ece, B.
Hutton of Furness, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janke, B.
Jay of Ewelme, L.
Jolly, B.
Jones, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Moulsecoomb, B.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of Cradley, B.
Kennedy of Southwark, L.
Kerr of Kinlochard, L.
Kerslake, L.
Kestenbaum, L.
King of Bow, B.
Kingsmill, B.
Kinnock, L.
Kinnock of Holyhead, B.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Knight of Weymouth, L.
Kramer, B.
Lansley, L.
Lawrence of Clarendon, B.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Leitch, L.
Lennie, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Levy, L.
Liddell of Coatdyke, B.
Liddle, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Lister of Burtersett, B.
Lisvane, L.
Loomba, L.
Ludford, B.
McAvoy, L.
McConnell of Glenscorrodale, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of River Glaven, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McFall of Alcluith, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Manzoor, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marks of Henley-on-Thames, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Meacher, B.
Mendelsohn, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Monks, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Ely, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L. [Teller]
Northover, B.
Nye, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Oates, L.
O'Loan, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Ouseley, L.
Oxford and Asquith, E.
Paddick, L.
Palmer of Childs Hill, L.
Palumbo of Southwark, L.
Parminter, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patel of Bradford, L.
Pendry, L.
Phillips of Worth Matravers, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prescott, L.
Prosser, B.
Purvis of Tweed, L.
Quin, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randerson, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Reid of Cardowan, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharkey, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheehan, B.
Sherlock, B.
Shipley, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Basildon, B.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Newnham, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Somerset, D.
Stair, E.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stephen, L.
Stern, B.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Stoneham of Droxford, L.
Storey, L.
Strasburger, L.
Suttie, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Taylor of Goss Moor, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thornton, B.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Touhig, L.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Tyler, L.
Uddin, B.
Valentine, B.
Verjee, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wheeler, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigley, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Willis of Knaresborough, L.
Wills, L.
Wood of Anfield, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Worthington, B.
Wrigglesworth, L.
Young of Hornsey, B.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.
NOT CONTENTS
Aberdare, L.
Ahmad of Wimbledon, L.
Altmann, B.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arbuthnot of Edrom, L.
Arran, E.
Ashton of Hyde, L.
Astor, V.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Balfe, L.
Bates, L.
Bell, L.
Black of Brentwood, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blencathra, L.
Borwick, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bourne of Aberystwyth, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brady, B.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges of Headley, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Browning, B.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Callanan, L.
Carrington of Fulham, L.
Cathcart, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chester, Bp.
Chisholm of Owlpen, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cooper of Windrush, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cormack, L.
Courtown, E.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
De Mauley, L.
Dear, L.
Deighton, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dunlop, L.
Eaton, B.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elton, L.
Evans of Bowes Park, B.
Falkland, V.
Farmer, L.
Faulks, L.
Feldman of Elstree, L.
Fellowes, L.
Fink, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Framlingham, L.
Freeman, L.
Freud, L.
Gardiner of Kimble, L. [Teller]
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilbert of Panteg, L.
Glentoran, L.
Gold, L.
Goodlad, L.
Grade of Yarmouth, L.
Green of Deddington, L.
Greengross, B.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hailsham, V.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hay of Ballyore, L.
Hayward, L.
Helic, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Abinger, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holmes of Richmond, L.
Hooper, B.
Horam, L.
Howard of Lympne, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
Jenkin of Kennington, B.
Kakkar, L.
Kalms, L.
Keen of Elie, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Leach of Fairford, L.
Leigh of Hurley, L.
Lexden, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lingfield, L.
Listowel, E.
Livingston of Parkhead, L.
Lupton, L.
Lyell, L.
Lytton, E.
McIntosh of Pickering , B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Marland, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mobarik, B.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Naseby, L.
Nash, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Neville-Rolfe, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Gatley, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
O'Shaughnessy, L.
Palumbo, L.
Pannick, L.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pidding, B.
Plumb, L.
Polak, L.
Popat, L.
Porter of Spalding, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Rana, L.
Redfern , B.
Ribeiro, L.
Ridley, V.
Risby, L.
Robathan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scott of Bybrook, B.
Scott of Foscote, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Shackleton of Belgravia, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheikh, L.
Sherbourne of Didsbury, L.
Shields, B.
Shinkwin, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Hindhead, L.
Spicer, L.
Stedman-Scott, B.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stowell of Beeston, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Stroud, B.
Suri, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L. [Teller]
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thurlow, L.
Trees, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trevethin and Oaksey, L.
Trimble, L.
True, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Wakeham, L.
Warner, L.
Wasserman, L.
Wei, L.
Wheatcroft, B.
Whitby, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Trafford, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Wolfson of Aspley Guise, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young of Cookham, L.
Younger of Leckie, V.
Northern Ireland
Statement
6.22 pm
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con): My Lords, with permission, I will repeat an Answer to an Urgent Question asked by Sir Gerald Howarth MP in the House of Commons earlier today. The Statement is as follows:
“As part of an ongoing investigation by the Police Service of Northern Ireland into the events surrounding Bloody Sunday in Londonderry in 1972, a former soldier was arrested for questioning on 10 November 2015. He was subsequently released on bail.
Criminal investigations and prosecutions are a matter for the police and prosecuting authorities, who act independently of government. The Government cannot therefore comment on an individual case.
This Government are committed to the rule of law. Where there is evidence of wrongdoing, it is right that it should be investigated.
We remain unstinting in our admiration and support for the men and women of the police and Armed Forces whose sacrifice ensured that terrorism would never succeed in Northern Ireland and that its future would only ever be determined by democracy and consent.
Whether the current investigations will lead to criminal prosecution is a matter for the police and prosecuting authorities in Northern Ireland. The overwhelming majority of armed services personnel carried out their duties with courage, professionalism and integrity. This Government will never forget the debt of gratitude that we owe to them”.
6.24 pm
Lord McAvoy (Lab): My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Answer given in the other place. As my honourable friend Vernon Coaker said there, it is only right and proper at this time to pay tribute to our Armed Forces, who are at this very moment engaged in defending our freedoms and are in harm’s way. They operate to the very highest standards and we should always remember the difficult circumstances in which they serve. That is why it is always difficult to criticise our Armed Forces if they fall below these high standards, but we cannot and must not fail to do so if evidence of wrongdoing should exist. The Saville inquiry of 2010 was clear. As the Prime Minister said at that time in his Statement to the House,
“there is no doubt; there is nothing equivocal; there are no ambiguities. What happened on Bloody Sunday was both unjustified and unjustifiable. It was wrong”.—[
Official Report
, Commons, 15/6/10; col. 739.]
He also apologised on behalf of the British Government. The whole report makes very uncomfortable reading for all of us, and none of us should ever forget the victims and families of those who were killed both on Bloody Sunday and throughout Northern Ireland on so many other occasions.
Can the Minister confirm that evidence given at the Saville inquiry is precluded from being used in any court proceedings against a particular individual? Can he confirm that the arrest of Soldier J was based on evidence gathered since January 2014 by the PSNI, which has announced a new investigation? The PSNI has said that there will be no further arrests until the results of a judicial review brought by other affected soldiers has concluded. Can the Minister tell us when he expects this judicial review to be concluded? Can he also tell us what work the Northern Ireland Office is undertaking pending the outcome of that judicial review?
Lord Dunlop: I thank the noble Lord for his words and will take each of his points in turn. Yes, I can confirm that evidence given to Saville cannot be used to incriminate the person who gives it; the evidence is protected. On the specific case, it would not be appropriate
for me to comment; it is a subject of an ongoing criminal investigation and the question of arrest is a matter for the PSNI. With regard to the ongoing legal proceedings, again, I do not think that it would be appropriate for me to comment, but I understand that the PSNI is committed to not making any further arrests in relation to Bloody Sunday until the outcome of those legal proceedings.
Lord Glentoran (Con): I have two points to make, First, I had a private meeting with Martin McGuinness soon after the Prime Minister’s apology to find out how the apology had gone down in Londonderry. He assured me that it had been very welcome and had been accepted. Secondly, Bloody Sunday—I was living there at the time—was very early in what we loosely call the Troubled times. There had not been much time for training and briefing of soldiers. The Paras are briefed and trained as an aggressive attack force. It was just very unfortunate that they were committed to Bloody Sunday.
Lord Dunlop: I thank my noble friend. When the Prime Minister made his Statement, I think that it was widely welcomed for the tone that it struck. I very much note my noble friend’s other point.
Lord Alderdice (LD): My Lords, while it is of course important in any case to follow the evidence wherever it takes the authorities, and even though the mills of justice often grind exceeding slow—in this case, we are talking about events of almost 50 years ago—does the Minister agree that it is extremely important in these circumstances for the police, the press and people generally to understand that an arrest is not a conviction? We have the experience in recent times of a whole series of arrests by the PSNI which led to a political crisis we are still trying to find our way through in Northern Ireland, and all of those arrested have been released without charge. Is it not important to point out that the same is the case in respect of this soldier—that an arrest is not a conviction and assumptions should not be built on it until the proper processes are proceeded with?
Lord Dunlop: I very much agree with the noble Lord. I absolutely agree that an investigation is not the same as a prosecution. Indeed, an investigation is also an opportunity for someone to clear their name.
Lord Trimble (Con): My Lords, I draw the Minister’s attention to a potential anomaly. I am not talking about this individual’s case. If, out of all of the proceedings of the Saville inquiry, any charges are brought and a conviction obtained, the person convicted will not be able to apply for early release under the terms of the Belfast agreement. I do not know why the authorities, in drafting that scheme, put a starting date of after 30 January 1972. It was never a matter of discussion and I was not aware of it until long after the agreement. However, it is there and I am making this point because, if this anomaly arises, steps should be taken to ensure that the person is treated in the same way as other persons convicted of criminal offences during the Troubles. It would be wrong to treat people in similar cases to this person’s case in a worse way.
Lord Dunlop: I thank my noble friend and note what he says. I will ensure that his views are reflected to the appropriate people.
Lord King of Bridgwater (Con): My Lords, I endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said. One other aspect worries me. I understand that the witnesses to the Saville inquiry were promised anonymity. On this occasion, three police cars turned up at this man’s house in Antrim to arrest someone who had indicated that he was willing to go to the police station of his own accord and give evidence. I hope that this matter is taken up because it is obviously worrying and may be extremely dangerous for him and his family.
Lord Dunlop: I note what my noble friend has said. His point was also raised in the other place earlier today and the Minister said that if there were concerns about the way in which the arrest happened, the matter should be taken up with the chief constable.
Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP): My Lords, as a Member of this House from Londonderry who lived through some of the difficult years in that city, it is important to say that we have now moved on to a better place. Sometimes when an atrocity such as this once again raises its ugly head, we forget where we have come from. I believe that in the city of Londonderry we have moved on from issues that were difficult many years ago. I agree that we should never forget the sacrifices of the security forces in protecting the people of Northern Ireland through a bloody terrorist campaign.
There was a clear belief when the Prime Minister apologised to the families of the victims of Bloody Sunday that that would more or less draw a line under it and we could all move on. Obviously that has not happened. I agree that no one should be above the law and that the police should be allowed to do their job irrespective of who the person may be.
Does the Minister agree that the new Stormont agreement announced yesterday is an important turning point for Northern Ireland? There have been five attempts to resolve the legacy issues of the past but, for whatever reason, all political parties in Northern Ireland are finding it difficult to get a resolution to the past. While we cannot get that resolution at this minute in time, it creates problems in legacy cases such as this and in dealing with the past. Will the Government and the parties continue to try to resolve this issue because, if we can, we can move Northern Ireland forward to a better place?
Lord Dunlop: The agreement that was reached yesterday was a significant achievement. I am sure the whole House will wish to congratulate all the Northern Ireland parties on reaching that deal. It has broken an impasse and created the opportunity to develop devolved institutions that work for the people in Northern Ireland. As the Minister in the other place said, it is a matter of regret that legacy was not part of the deal. We must find ways to take these matters forward and give victims and their families closure and see justice served. The Government stand ready to play their part in that process.
European Union Referendum Bill
Report (1st Day) (Continued)
6.34 pm
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer (LD): My Lords, these amendments seek to extend the Westminster franchise to those British citizens who have lived in the EU for more than 15 years. This extension to the franchise is an exception in the same way that the Bill allows for Members of your Lordships’ House to vote in the referendum.
In Committee, we heard many examples of why these British citizens should be enabled to vote in the referendum. I will not repeat all of them but simply remind the House that many in this currently excluded group have spent the whole of their working lives working for Britain. Many receive government pensions as they were soldiers, nurses or civil servants and so they pay UK taxes. In Committee, one of the points made—which was conceded even by those who seem to oppose this amendment—was that there should be no taxation without representation.
Many other people working in the EU are there because they are flying the flag for Britain. They have been encouraged by successive Governments of this country to expand their careers and look to the EU. For some this started when they were at university, with the Erasmus scheme getting them to spend time at EU universities, and for others it is because the UK has developed partnerships with firms such as Airbus. So Governments have encouraged British citizens to look on the whole of the EU as a place to study, work and live, and they cannot now pull the rug from under their feet. They should at least give them a say in whether that rug is pulled.
In Committee, some noble Lords could not understand why being a British expat in the EU is different from being an expat in, say, Singapore or Australia. As the noble Lord, Lord Anderson of Swansea, put it so succinctly, it is because of the network of arrangements upon which our citizens relied when they made their choice to live and work in the EU.
When I reflected on the Government’s response in Committee, I could not understand why they are not keen to enfranchise this group of citizens. I am glad to see the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in her place because she asked a very important question. If the Government believe it is right for British citizens to vote in future general elections, as announced in their manifesto, why is it not right to give these people a vote in a referendum that will have a greater impact on their lives than a general election? The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, rightly said that it will be incomprehensible to our fellow citizens living abroad that a manifesto
commitment cannot be implemented, by one means or another, to participate in a vote of such overwhelming importance.
When I reread the proceedings of the Committee stage, the only arguments I could find were from the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, who said that the Electoral Commission would not know where the expats lived or who they were. However, the answer is that if you want to enfranchise them, they will apply for a franchise—they have passport numbers, national insurance numbers and fixed addresses—and, after all, those who have lived in the EU for 14, 13 or 12 years can register. It is only those above 15 years. Surely the Government would not deny such people the right to vote simply on that basis. It cannot be that difficult.
The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan of Ely, seemed to be against this exceptional franchise because she does not want to set a precedent for votes for life, which her party is against. I say to her that this enfranchisement is exceptional and should not set a precedent. The noble Baroness used the phrase about those working in the EU flying the flag for their country. I am sure she believes that and I wonder whether she might soften her position.
In replying for the Government, when it came down to not wishing to agree with the amendment, the Minister said that he was simply concerned with legitimacy. He wanted no sense that there had been an attempt to skew the result. He felt that the “safest way” to do this was to stick with the Westminster franchise. We should not be looking at safety, but at the fairest way. In any case, we are not sticking with the Westminster franchise because we have already made a couple of exceptions. The Government have accepted them and they are in the Bill.
All I am asking for here is that those who have lived in the EU for more than 15 years can join with those who have lived there for a shorter time, and that for the referendum they may exceptionally have the right to vote on a really important future for this country and for them. I beg to move.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): My Lords, I rise to support the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer. We had a good debate about this in Committee and I think we established rather clearly that there is in fact no difference of principle on this matter between those who supported the amendment and the Minister who opposed it. His party has a manifesto commitment, which I am sure it is going to fulfil, to introduce legislation in this Parliament to give the vote to precisely the people we are talking about; that is, people who have been living abroad for more than 15 years. Admittedly, he is going to do that erga omnes and not just for those in the European Union, but there seems to me to be no difference of principle between us.
Nor does this amendment cross in any sense the line that has been frequently prayed in aid in previous debates, that this is a referendum which British people should be deciding. These people are British. They hold British passports and they are our citizens. The reason to give them the vote is because we are having a referendum which could fundamentally affect a large
amount of the way in which they live. It could affect their healthcare arrangements, their ability to travel freely, their social coverage, their jobs and the way their children are treated. This is a huge range of things that could and will be affected if by any chance—mischance, in my view—the electorate votes to withdraw from the European Union. Yet the Government, which want these people to have the vote and believe that they are rightly going to be given the vote under their own proposals to be brought forward later in this Parliament, feel that they should not have it in the one vote which they really mind about. They are probably not all that interested in voting in our parliamentary, municipal and other elections, but they jolly well are interested in this referendum because their interests are at stake.
It would be really good if the Government could take a deep breath and say, “Yes, we agree that these people should have the vote because that is what our manifesto says, and we agree that this referendum vote matters more to them than anything else”. The Government have been saying for years now that the people must have their say. Did they really mean to exclude British citizens living elsewhere in the EU from having their say when their interests will be affected? I hope that we can move ahead with the amendment. Not only does it have logic and consistency on its side—two qualities which were given a rather hard time in the previous debate—it has common sense on its side as well.
Lord Scott of Foscote (CB): My Lords, I rise to support this amendment as strenuously as I can, very much for the reasons already given by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. I have a personal interest which I must declare. I have a daughter who lives in Spain with her English husband. Both were born in England and are English through and through. They have both always held English passports. They met in Spain, married and have two sons, both of whom hold British passports. All those members of my family are British, but they live in Spain under the arrangements made whereby the citizens of one EU country have the right to live anywhere in the EU. They have been in Spain for well over 15 years. The eldest of my grandsons is now 18 and at university, not in Spain but in the Netherlands, for reasons I do not quite understand. At any rate, they have been living in Spain for more than 15 years on the footing that they have the right to do so.
If the referendum requires this country to leave the EU, that would create the problem that I am referring to, but to say that they should not have the right to vote in the referendum, given the interest and importance to them of this country remaining in the EU, seems quite unacceptable. I therefore wholeheartedly support this amendment.
6.45 pm
Lord Lexden (Con): My Lords, I should like to return briefly to two points from among those I made in Committee. First, if our fellow countrymen and women who have lived overseas for more than 15 years are deprived of the vote in this all-important referendum, it will be because of a preventable accident of timing. As we have heard, the Conservative Party is committed
to enfranchising them, but the promised Bill to do so has not appeared. The right thing to do, and this is a Government that pride themselves on doing the right thing, is to make provision for them to take part in the referendum through this Bill.
Secondly, I say again, as I did in Committee, that we should put ourselves in the shoes of our fellow countrymen and women who have been living in other EU countries for more than 15 years. How would we like it if we were deprived of the vote in a momentous referendum which will touch our present livelihoods and future prospects so intimately and directly, when we knew that at the next parliamentary election a vote would be ours? I take the view that the Bill should be returned to the other place incorporating this amendment. The issue was discussed hurriedly and incompletely during the earlier debates on the Bill there. Let the elected Chamber be asked to make a carefully considered decision on this issue. If we do that, we will have discharged our proper constitutional duty in relation to this part of the Bill.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill (LD): My Lords, I regret that I was not able to speak at the Committee stage, but I want to make one brief point. It is extremely important for us, through the Government and Parliament, to recognise the service given by our fellow citizens when they serve in the European institutions. I have made the point in the past so far as judges are concerned. It is vital to get good British judges to serve in Europe. But exactly the same applies elsewhere in the European public service.
The example that comes to my mind is that of an admirable civil servant, now retired, called Simon Palmer. He has lived in France for more than 15 years. He lives there because during the whole of that time he served the Council of Europe as a member of the European civil service. He takes his holidays in England and he is thoroughly British, but he has brought up his family in Europe. I see no good reason why he should suffer the penalty of being disqualified from the referendum simply because he has lived there for the wrong side of 15 years. His connection with this country is no weaker, and it is very important that through this debate and what comes of it, we should recognise the vital public service given by people like him by giving them the ability to vote in this crucial referendum.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab): My Lords, I too, support this amendment, to which I have added my name. There are many people living all over the European Union who, as the noble Lord has said, have done fine service for our country who are still receiving pensions from this country and paying tax in this country, and they deserve a voice. This is one of the most important votes that will have happened in their lifetime, and they certainly deserve a voice, as I say.
I respect the coherent position of my own party, although I disagree with it, but I do not understand the incoherent position of the party opposite, as was said by the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and other noble Lords. The Conservative Party has, I believe quite rightly, said that it will extend the franchise. This is the
most important vote for many of those people to whom the franchise will be extended, so why cannot it be extended now? Why cannot that legislation be brought forward before we have the referendum? That is a simple question, and I believe it is the proper one to ask.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con): My Lords, why do I smell another rat here? It seems to me that this is once again trying to slew the whole playing field, which we have desperately been trying to keep level, in favour of those who want to keep us in the EU. It has been quite established for some time. There is the argument that it is very unfair for these people who have been abroad for more than X number of years that they cannot vote in the referendum. But they cannot vote in general elections either. It is quite extraordinary that we seem to be determined all the time to bring in amendments that will make it more likely that we will stay in the EU than leave it.
Baroness Ludford (LD): Does the noble Lord believe that the Conservative manifesto commitment to raise the 15-year cap in the future is also an attempt to fix the electorate?
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: A large number of commitments have been made in manifestos that have not been brought in. That is rather like, by the same token, arguing that this is the moment to change the electoral mandate for 16 and 17 year-olds. Are we going to bring all these changes in on the back of a referendum Bill? Like my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I believe that we should have a constitutional convention to look into all these things. The whole thing is becoming more messy and piecemeal as it goes along, and I certainly do not approve of that at all.
All the time, amendments are being brought forward that are designed to make it more likely that the electoral register will be slewed in such a way that more people will vote to stay in than to leave.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick: I wonder whether the noble Lord would agree that voting for this amendment will make the electorate less piecemeal, not more piecemeal. It is the exclusion of people who are British citizens that is piecemeal and which his party, which he seems to treat with contempt, proposes to remedy. This is really quite an odd thing for him to do. It would be much more logical if they were included.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: All the time, we seem to be trying to change the existing electoral register in favour of those who are more likely to vote to stay in than they are to leave. This is quite clearly changing the whole thing in favour of those who want to stay in the EU. I do not know why the noble Lord actually denies this. Does he really think that people living in the EU for more than 15 years will vote to come out? It is extremely unlikely. He knows that as well as anybody else. We have established that there is an electoral register and now we are starting to mess about with it. Once it includes the 16 and 17 year-olds
a whole host of other people can be put in. That moves totally away from the original register on which we were having this referendum.
If everybody wants to hold a referendum in this country which is narrowly won by those who say we should stay in the EU when there is all the gerrymandering that has been going on, do noble Lords really think that that decision will be accepted by the country when it is obvious that the whole thing has been slewed in favour of those who want to stay in the EU?
Lord Green of Deddington (CB): I can help the noble Lord. He will not be surprised to hear numbers from me, or that I am repeating them. We are talking about 1.3 million people, according to the UN Population Division. Some of those will be minors because that figure does not distinguish between minors and adults, and some will have been in Europe for fewer than 15 years. There are no statistics and no way of knowing exactly how many people would be covered by this amendment, and I am not suggesting that there is. However, if we start with that 1.3 million, probably 0.3 million of them are minors, so we are left with 1 million, of which—who knows?—maybe 0.5 million or 0.3 million have been in Europe for more than 15 years. Whichever way we look at it, the noble Lord is quite right that this is a significant number of people, running into hundreds of thousands. We should be aware of that when we consider the amendment.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: I am grateful to the noble Lord, and it is very helpful to have a few statistics to bring everything more vividly to light. I give way to the noble Lord.
Lord Howie of Troon (Lab): I did not intend to interrupt the noble Lord; I thought he had finished.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: In which case I will sit down and listen to the noble Lord.
Lord Howie of Troon: So, the noble Lord has finished. I want to add no more than a pennyweight to this debate. It is based on personal experience, in that I have been excluded from no fewer than three referendums in recent years—two on the question of devolution in Scotland and one on the question of Scottish independence.
In my maiden speech in this House in 1978, I spoke about those who were Scots by birth or upbringing, or like me having a Scottish title, who because we had lived in London or England for some time were excluded from that referendum. All I wish to say is that, like those who live abroad and yet retain their allegiance to the United Kingdom, I living in England—and opposing independence, let it be said—retain an affection and loyalty to Scotland. Therefore, having been excluded from those referenda, I have a continuing feeling of resentment and annoyance. Those who, like the civil servant in Brussels mentioned earlier, are excluded from this referendum will quite rightly have a feeling of resentment and undue exclusion. I support the amendment.
Lord Bowness (Con): My Lords, I had my name to a similar amendment that was tabled in Committee. I have to say to my noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom that for me it is an issue of fairness. With great respect to him, we will not get very far if we throw words such as “gerrymandering” at each other. I suppose that those of us who want to see a positive vote in favour of remaining in the European Union could say that to exclude tax-paying British citizens—a group who have committed their lives and made decisions about their lives and who live in Europe—is also gerrymandering in trying to skew it in another direction. I do not think that that gets us very far.
I believe that the amendment is one of fairness. As I said in Committee, these are people, many of whom if not all, will not be outside the reach of Her Majesty’s Revenue & Customs. The fact that you are non-resident does not mean that you are non-resident for tax purposes. HMRC will keep its fingers on you if you have property, family or a whole lot of various matters where you are judged not to have broken your connection totally with the United Kingdom.
The advice from the Electoral Commission in respect of this amendment—which, indeed, I support—says:
“It is not clear how such proof could be provided and verified by EROs”.
I am rather surprised at that advice from the Electoral Commission, because I should have thought that the vast majority of people about whom we are talking are people who will be resident in one particular place. They will have evidence of employment and evidence of that residency, and they will have the same papers that the rest of us have in connection with bills, credit cards and bank accounts, which will be the kind of evidence that they would be able to present to an electoral registration officer. While I have great respect for the Electoral Commission and its advice, although it says that it is not clear how such proof could be provided, I am not clear in my mind why it is so difficult to find suitable items to prove that you are entitled to a vote in the circumstances that this amendment envisages. I support the amendment.
7 pm
Baroness Morgan of Ely (Lab): My Lords, many noble Lords believe in the principle of votes for life for British citizens, irrespective of where they now live or how long they have lived there for. Others have argued that this is a one-off, exceptional situation relating to the fact that this is an EU referendum— that UK citizens living in the EU will be directly impacted and they should therefore be given the vote. These are different arguments and we disagree with both.
I am clear that if we were to leave the EU there would be an immediate and direct impact on UK citizens living in other EU member states. Their status in the country would at the very least be reviewed. Will their qualifications be recognised? Will their pensions be uprated? Will they be able to access member states’ medical services? There is a deafening silence from the Government on these issues, but it does not mean that they should be given special status in this referendum because of the possible impact on their lives.
In Committee, my noble friend Lord Grocott eloquently inquired why we allow some expats in some countries in Europe, such as Sweden, to vote, while preventing others in countries such as Norway from voting. He also suggested that we would be getting into difficult territory if we allowed only those affected to vote. If we start down that route we will get into difficulty.
Then there is the practical issue of registering these people. Who are they? How do we find them? What if we extend the franchise to 16 to 18 year-olds? The Minister suggested that if all citizens around the world were invited to register there could be about 5 million of them. That is not what the amendment says; it says, “Let’s restrict this to the EU”. That is 1.3 million citizens. We have just heard some very clear statistics, but they actually were not that clear. That is the problem. We have no idea how many there are. It will be very difficult to trace them in a short space of time. This is very different from 16 to 17 year-olds voting. We know exactly where they are: in school. These people are spread throughout the continent. We would not know where to start, not within the nine-month timeframe.
Many UK citizens overseas have been invited to register in the past, but as the noble Lord, Lord Dobbs, pointed out in Committee, fewer than 20,000 British expats in the European Union have taken up that right to vote, despite all the efforts and funding that has been given to advertising by the Government and to get them involved.
Lord Lexden: The noble Baroness underestimates the figure. It is not 20,000, but more than 100,000 registered to vote at the last general election.
Baroness Morgan of Ely: That is even fewer. That makes my point more eloquently. The point is, there was a huge drive to get these people to sign up and they did not take it up, although I think every one of those 100,000 has emailed me in the past few weeks to ask for this vote in the EU referendum.
The issue of citizenship and the responsibilities of citizens that my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith talked about earlier should be taken into account. In this country we have said time and again that we want to encourage people to integrate into their communities, to be a part of this society. It would therefore be inconsistent for us to suggest that, after 15 years in a country, they should not also be encouraged to become part of that society and to establish roots in their adopted lands.
There must be no question about the legitimacy of this referendum. We believe that there should be a cut-off point when people should lose their entitlement to vote if they have made their home abroad. We think that the current cut-off point of 15 years is about right. However, let me make it absolutely clear that there is no inconsistency in Labour’s position on this. The Conservative Government have said clearly that they want to see this extended. It is in their manifesto. They want British citizens who move abroad to be able to vote for ever. We do not believe that. When that Bill comes before this House we will oppose it.
I hope noble Lords will agree that there is, at least, a degree of consistency in the Labour Party’s position on this issue. We do not want to see this franchise extended beyond 15 years.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con): My Lords, the purpose of these amendments is to allow British citizens resident in other EU member states to vote in the EU referendum, regardless of the time they have been resident overseas. They would, therefore, lift the 15-year time limit on voting rights in the referendum for British citizens resident overseas, but only for those Britons resident in the EU. I have listened to the arguments put forward today and in Committee. I fear that, as with all the proposed changes to the franchise, the Government’s position remains the same.
I am, of course, sympathetic to the case. Indeed, as has been referred to, the Government are committed to getting rid of the 15-year time limit and have committed to bringing forward a stand-alone, dedicated Bill to provide for votes for life in due course. On the principle of removing the 15-year rule, therefore, I have no argument with the amendments. I can also understand the desire of British citizens who have been abroad for more than 15 years—whether they live in the EU, or within Europe in Oslo, in the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott—to participate in the referendum. I appreciate that some will feel frustrated that they will not be able to participate. The other part of the 100,000 obviously sent their emails to me, rather than to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan. They can argue that they might be affected by the vote, but I fear that that does not change the Government’s position on the franchise as a whole.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick: My Lords, there seems to be a perhaps excessive interest in the probably not very large numbers of British citizens who live in Norway. It might be worth recalling that, whatever the result of the referendum, they will not be affected. They live in a country in the European Economic Area, which is part of the single market. All their rights and privileges, and all the advantages they get from that, will remain with them whichever way we vote. That is what makes them different from British citizens in EU countries.
Lord Faulks: I am grateful for that interruption. The Government’s commitment is to votes for life for everybody, whether they live in the EU or elsewhere. The point is not in terms of their direct association with the EU, but whether they are British citizens who live abroad. Therefore, the point that I understood the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, to be making, which had some force, was that it is mere happenstance whether an individual lives in a country in the European Union or outside of it.
Removing the 15-year rule will be a complex and important constitutional change. It is not something that we suggest should in any way be rushed by way of a single amendment. It needs a whole Bill to be implemented properly—a Bill that plainly will be opposed by the party opposite. There are decisions to be taken.
The media and the public should have a chance to scrutinise these changes. That is something of an echo of the argument I advanced unsuccessfully on the previous amendment. We will need to consider questions of potential fraud and how we should update the registration system. It is not something that should in any way be rushed through. This is just a small sample of the decisions that would need to be taken and implemented. Changing the franchise in this way is no small task. Giving effect to such a change would take a significant amount of time and resources in central government and in local authorities.
In many ways this is the most complex change to the franchise being proposed today. The group of people in question are almost by definition not known to us, as British citizens do not need to register when they move abroad. There are many, like the relations of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, who will be well known and easily identifiable, but for many others it is difficult to have an adequate canvass. We could hardly go door to door, as electoral registration officials can in the UK. I entirely accept the contribution that many who live in the EU have made over a long period to Great Britain, as the noble Lord, Lord Lester, pointed out, although they have not hitherto taken part in general elections if they are outside the Westminster franchise. Verifying identities for others is a complicated task where a person has been away for at least a decade. For example, it might be difficult to prove that they have been previously resident in the UK.
These changes have to be made judiciously and carefully to ensure that the system remains transparent. My noble friend Lord Lexden said in Committee and again today that the Government should have started the process of the votes for life, which would, of course, incorporate this amendment. I know that is an issue close to his heart. I assure him and the House that the Government are committed to this change, but without knowing the date of the referendum I cannot, of course, guarantee that the change will be implemented in time. As I said, the decisions are complex.
I return finally to the point that I have made before. Indeed, I think it is one of the areas of common ground between this party and the party opposite at least. This process must be seen to be fair. There is clearly a view taken, as exemplified by the contribution of my noble friend Lord Hamilton, that a change of this sort may have an ulterior motive. I do not presume to guess how anybody is going to vote, whether they live outside the United Kingdom, outside the EU or whether they are under 18 or not. However, it is important that this should not in any way be seen to be some form of specially amended franchise so as to achieve a certain outcome. Nothing should undermine its legitimacy. The public might ask why we have made this change now just in time for the referendum. Should it not have been done as a much more careful stand-alone vote?
Lord Liddle (Lab): I am a simple-minded chap but the Government are making a special change to the Westminster franchise to include citizens of Gibraltar to give them a vote in the British referendum. Presumably, the argument for that is that they are deeply affected
by the result, as, indeed, they would be because their position in relation to Spain would become much more difficult were we to withdraw. But what about British citizens who have lived in the EU for a long time? The reason a lot of these people have gone to live there is because they were taking advantage of our EU membership. They see themselves as EU citizens as well as British citizens. What is the logic of excluding them if we are including the Gibraltarians?
Lord Faulks: The position is that British citizens are not able to vote in referenda in other European countries. This minor exception, which includes Peers and Gibraltarians who are members of the Commonwealth, is a very minor change to reflect that fact rather than to reflect the fact that Gibraltar happens to be in Europe and is part of the south-west area. I do not think it follows therefore that there should be an automatic change to the whole approach.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick: Before the noble Lord sits down—I think he is winding up—I do think it is a bit bizarre that we have got as far as the housemaid’s baby now. It is a very small baby—it does not matter very much. It is a change. However, the Ministry of Justice seems to be singularly ignorant of the role that British embassies, consulates and other diplomatic missions in the EU play. They have a duty of care to British citizens living in those countries. They know where a lot of them live—not, I am sure, all of them—and they have a duty of care. If those citizens are accused of a crime, they have to try to help them. So it is no good simply saying, “We don’t know where they all are. It’s a huge problem”. That is not actually the truth.
Lord Faulks: I would not dream of underestimating the role of British embassies and consulates around the world. They play an extremely valuable and continuing role. Nevertheless, it is asking a great deal of them—even of the most conscientious embassy—to be conscious of the whereabouts of all the various citizens living in countries outside the United Kingdom.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: In a previous debate, the noble Lord talked about the mental capacity of adolescents to take part in elections and suggested that they might be mentally in some way less capable, or something like that. I hope that I do not put it too crudely. As regards the particular group we are discussing, is the problem that they are rather well informed because they have lived in other parts of Europe and have great experience? I have no idea how they will vote but at least they will be better informed than many Members of this House.
Lord Faulks: The noble Lord makes an entirely false point. The argument that I advanced in relation to an earlier group of amendments had nothing to do with mental capacity. In fact, I eschewed any reliance on mental capacity. I simply said that we draw an arbitrary line where adolescents are concerned—whether it is 16 or 18—and part of informing ourselves whether it is appropriate that they should vote involves looking
at the development of the adolescent mind, without impugning in any way their capacity. I hope that I have made that position clear. As regards the capacity of those who are disfranchised by the current state of affairs, I do not at all wish to impugn their capacity or the level of their information or their ability to take a decision.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB): I thank the noble Lord for giving way. I quite agree with him about the difficulties of drawing a line. Why draw a line, then, at 15 years?
Lord Faulks: Fifteen years is the line drawn by a previous Government, who thought that was a reasonable assessment of somebody who had a sufficient or recent connection with the country. Any line, whether it is 16 years or 14 years, is going to be arbitrary. Sympathetic though the Government are to the general tone of these amendments, for the reasons I have given I respectfully ask the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I am very sorry that the Government have not followed the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, drawn a deep breath and thought again about this. I am afraid that there is no logic to the position laid out by the Minister. He admits that the line is arbitrary. He says that any change has to be considered and that more time should be taken over adopting it. In that case, the Government could have made the votes for life Bill a priority at the beginning of this Session. That is what they should have done if they believe in it. I am afraid that a lot of the EU expats listening to this debate will conclude that it is humbug as they will be disfranchised.
The noble Lord, Lord Bowness, put his finger on the matter when he said that it was about fairness. That is what it is. It is very unfair that the people we are discussing have been led to understand throughout their lives that being in the EU means being part of a network to which Britain belongs. Now, when Britain may make a choice to leave it, they have no say in that whatever. That position is unfair and, as the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, said, it is an accident of timing. This is an unfairness that the Government could have rectified. I will certainly not withdraw the amendment. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
7.17 pm
Contents 116; Not-Contents 214.
CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Allan of Hallam, L.
Avebury, L.
Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, B.
Barker, B.
Benjamin, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brinton, B.
Burnett, L.
Burt of Solihull , B.
Campbell of Pittenweem, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Chester, Bp.
Chidgey, L.
Cotter, L.
Doocey, B.
Eames, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Foster of Bath , L.
Fox, L.
Garden of Frognal, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
German, L.
Glasgow, E.
Goddard of Stockport, L.
Grender, B.
Hamwee, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hooper, B.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Humphreys, B. [Teller]
Hussein-Ece, B.
Janke, B.
Jay of Ewelme, L.
Jolly, B.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Kerr of Kinlochard, L.
Kidron, B.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Kramer, B.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lexden, L.
Liddle, L.
Lisvane, L.
Loomba, L.
Ludford, B.
Lytton, E.
Macdonald of River Glaven, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Manzoor, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marks of Henley-on-Thames, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L. [Teller]
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Oates, L.
O'Loan, B.
Oxford and Asquith, E.
Paddick, L.
Parminter, B.
Phillips of Worth Matravers, L.
Pinnock, B.
Purvis of Tweed, L.
Quin, B.
Randerson, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Scott of Foscote, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharkey, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheehan, B.
Shipley, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Newnham, B.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stephen, L.
Stern, B.
Stoneham of Droxford, L.
Storey, L.
Strasburger, L.
Suttie, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Goss Moor, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Truscott, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Tyler, L.
Uddin, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wigley, L.
Willis of Knaresborough, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Wrigglesworth, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
NOT CONTENTS
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Ahmad of Wimbledon, L.
Altmann, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arbuthnot of Edrom, L.
Arran, E.
Ashton of Hyde, L.
Astor, V.
Attlee, E.
Bakewell, B.
Balfe, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bates, L.
Berkeley of Knighton, L.
Blencathra, L.
Borwick, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bourne of Aberystwyth, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brady, B.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges of Headley, L.
Brookman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Browning, B.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Callanan, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carrington of Fulham, L.
Cathcart, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chisholm of Owlpen, B.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Collins of Highbury, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cooper of Windrush, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cormack, L.
Corston, B.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
De Mauley, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Drake, B.
Dundee, E.
Dunlop, L.
Eaton, B.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elton, L.
Evans of Bowes Park, B.
Farmer, L.
Faulks, L.
Feldman of Elstree, L.
Fink, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Framlingham, L.
Freeman, L.
Freud, L.
Gardiner of Kimble, L. [Teller]
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gilbert of Panteg, L.
Glentoran, L.
Gold, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodlad, L.
Grade of Yarmouth, L.
Green of Deddington, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Grocott, L.
Hailsham, V.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hay of Ballyore, L.
Hayward, L.
Healy of Primrose Hill, B.
Helic, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Abinger, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holmes of Richmond, L.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Horam, L.
Howard of Lympne, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
Jenkin of Kennington, B.
Jones, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kakkar, L.
Keen of Elie, L.
Kennedy of Southwark, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kinnoull, E.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lansley, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leigh of Hurley, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lingfield, L.
Listowel, E.
Lupton, L.
Lyell, L.
McAvoy, L.
McDonagh, B.
McFall of Alcluith, L.
McIntosh of Pickering , B.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Marland, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mitchell, L.
Mobarik, B.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Ely, B.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Naseby, L.
Nash, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Neville-Rolfe, B.
Newlove, B.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Gatley, L.
O'Shaughnessy, L.
Pannick, L.
Patel of Bradford, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pidding, B.
Plumb, L.
Polak, L.
Popat, L.
Porter of Spalding, L.
Redfern , B.
Ribeiro, L.
Ridley, V.
Risby, L.
Robathan, L.
Rosser, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Bybrook, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Shackleton of Belgravia, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheikh, L.
Sherbourne of Didsbury, L.
Shields, B.
Shinkwin, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Basildon, B.
Smith of Hindhead, L.
Somerset, D.
Spicer, L.
Stair, E.
Stedman-Scott, B.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Stowell of Beeston, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Stroud, B.
Suri, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Taylor of Holbeach, L. [Teller]
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trimble, L.
True, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Wakeham, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wasserman, L.
Wei, L.
Wheatcroft, B.
Wheeler, B.
Whitby, L.
Whitty, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Trafford, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wolfson of Aspley Guise, L.
Young of Cookham, L.
Younger of Leckie, V.
7.29 pm
7A: Clause 2, page 2, line 32, at end insert—
“( ) Regulations under section 1(2) may not be laid before either House of Parliament unless the Electoral Commission has certified that any persons in the United Kingdom who would not be entitled to vote as electors at a parliamentary election in any constituency but are entitled to vote in the referendum by virtue of this section have had sufficient time to register to vote (the meaning of “sufficient time” having been determined by the Electoral Commission).”
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: My Lords, I hope that we are now moving into slightly calmer waters. I tabled this amendment in anticipation that the House might vote to enfranchise 16 and 17 year-olds. I do not think there can really be too much opposition in the House to my amendment because we have to ensure that the new franchise actually happens. The amendment enfranchising 16 and 17 year-olds passed by a very big majority in your Lordships’ House and it may well be that it never comes back from the Commons, either. There are a number of different reasons why the other place might actually accept the amendment, so there may well be no future opportunity to amend it.
The whole point of my amendment is to ensure that we do not enfranchise 16 and 17 year-olds with one hand and disenfranchise them with the other. We have heard different stories from the Electoral Commission. The noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, said that she had been assured by people at the Electoral Commission that it would be possible to get all this through by September. But we are in uncharted waters and we really do not know how long it is going to take to get the new register drawn up; it is completely new territory. All these people have to be individually registered, which may take a quite serious amount of time.
All my amendment does, which I am sure must be acceptable to the House, is to say that the Electoral Commission must be able to tick the box for the Government and say, “Yes, we have got a decent number of 16 and 17 year-olds on the electoral roll”—I am not saying it should come back and say that it has got 100% of them—and that should be acceptable to everybody. We do not want to end up with a whole lot of 16 and 17 year-olds going round saying, “I was told that I had a vote but I never got on the electoral roll”— because the process was only half completed, or whatever. So is it really too much to leave it to the Electoral Commission to tell the Government or whoever
is deciding on the date of the referendum when the new register has been drawn up and everything is in place?
I do not pretend to know how long the process is going to take. At one stage the Electoral Commission was telling us that it would take up to 12 months. It is now reining back from that and saying that perhaps it will be quicker. But that is not really where I come from. It does not matter how long it takes. If it takes three months, fine. If the Electoral Commission can come back in three months and say that the job is done, that is absolutely fine and the referendum can be held after that. But it is very important to ensure that we do not, as I say, give enfranchisement to 16 and 17 year-olds with one hand and then, by having a very early referendum, ignore all those who are not on the electoral roll and take it away with the other. That is the point of my amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, if I had heard the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton of Epsom, arguing against this I would think it a blatant attempt to bias the level playing field of which he is so fond by delaying the referendum. This amendment is simply unnecessary because the Electoral Commission will of course vouch for when the process has reached an appropriate stage. We therefore do not need to write this into the Bill. While I am on my feet, in his last speech during Committee the noble Lord referred to our friends and enemies within the European Union but did not specify which Governments he thought were our enemies within it. If he is going to reply, it would perhaps be helpful if he said whether they are the German Government, the French Government or others, because that would help us in understanding where he is coming from in the various amendments he has tabled.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: That is a particularly silly point from the Liberal Benches. I was merely making the point that we have people who are on our side in certain negotiations, and people who are against us. That was the rather loose way in which I used the term “enemies”. To go back to the noble Lord’s earlier point, the fact is that the Electoral Commission’s job is to advise the Government, who do not have to take its advice. The Government could say, “There is a wonderful opportunity now to win this referendum” and hold it after three months, when only a handful of 16 or 17 year-olds would be on the register.
Viscount Ridley (Con): My Lords, I will speak briefly in support of my noble friend Lord Hamilton’s amendment. The key point was that in discussing the amendment on 16 and 17 year-olds, it was clearly said to us that it did not allow sufficient time to ensure that we get the electoral register right. We also heard that the Electoral Commission thought that there was an issue with individual registration being different from household registration. We may well see a specific issue in Scotland, in that people who got on the register for the Scottish referendum may now find that it is not so easy to get on the register for this one, given the amendment we have just passed, because they have
not gone through the individual registration process. There has to be clarity and time to get the electoral register right.
I come back to the point I made in Committee and which has been made here. The crucial thing is to make sure that this is as fair and final a referendum as we can manage, so as to settle the issue once and for all. It would be a great mistake—
Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD): Does the noble Viscount accept that the Scottish Parliament has now brought forward legislation to enfranchise 16 and 17 year-olds for the Scottish parliamentary and local government elections, the former taking place next May? I appreciate his concern about 16 and 17 year-old Scots, but the issue does not really arise because they will already be on the register by virtue of legislation passed by the Scottish Parliament.
Viscount Ridley: That is good news but there are a lot of other people in this country as well as Scots, and we have to ensure that they are properly registered. The next canvass begins, as we have heard, in July 2016. I do not quite understand how that interacts with this business of registering people for the referendum, but I beg my noble friend the Minister to take my noble friend Lord Hamilton’s amendment seriously.
Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD): My Lords, I do not believe that this amendment is necessary. It is very reassuring to know that noble Lords opposite, who were opposing votes for 16 and 17 year-olds a few minutes ago, are now so concerned to ensure that those people who may now have the vote—
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Does the noble Baroness not accept that those people who believe in democracy accept a democratic vote?
Baroness Smith of Newnham: My Lords, I am very pleased to hear that. We have all talked about making sure that this is a level playing field, so I am delighted to know that noble Lords are keen to ensure that people who will be entitled to vote can be registered. However, the issues are whether this needs to be in the Bill and whether we need to wait until the annual register, which starts in July 2016. We have a rolling electoral register. Can the Minister say whether it would be possible to look at registration at an earlier stage? Lest anyone think that I am trying to skew things by looking for a quick referendum at a later or earlier date, we do not know the date, so we have the veil of ignorance. However, we will know relatively soon when we shall have Royal Assent for the Bill. Could the Electoral Commission not set in train the process of registration as soon as Royal Assent is granted?
Lord Stoddart of Swindon (Ind Lab): My Lords, it seems to me that the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, is trying to be helpful, and I am surprised that he should be opposed from the Liberal Benches. I did not agree with one thing he said: that we should abide by a
democratic vote. The vote in this House is not and has not been democratic. The vote will be democratic only if the House of Commons agrees. It is rather an impertinence that this House should have carried the amendment on the franchise when it knows perfectly well that the House of Commons opposed such an amendment by quite a large majority—51, I think.
The noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, is being treated very badly, because he has tried to be helpful, bearing in mind that he has a different view from that held on the Liberal Benches. While I am talking about the Liberal Benches and democracy, I have to say that they came out in huge numbers to vote for the amendment on the franchise, yet they have only eight MPs in the House of Commons. That is an absolute disgrace. It is a disgrace that they should use their undemocratic power in this House to overrule the democratic House—another place.
Baroness Smith of Newnham: My Lords, I certainly have no intention of doing down the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton. We have had a vote in your Lordships’ House. The Members of the other place will have the opportunity to either accept votes at 16 and 17 or to vote it down, and we will reach a point of ping-pong. The elected or unelected nature of this House is for another debate—
The Earl of Courtown (Con): Order. I think we are now clearly in breach of the Companion. I have been really relaxed, trying to let the debate flow, but we will want to get on with this. I suggest that during the dinner hour, noble Lords just go to page 151 of the Companion and take a rest.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): I just wanted to intervene very briefly to say that it is absolutely extraordinary that the Liberals should have pitched their tent on the 16 year-old thing. There was an article by the leader of the Liberals in the paper this morning. They have brought their troops here to vote, most of whom have not been here throughout the proceedings on the Bill. Now they seem to be arguing against my noble friend’s amendment, which would simply ensure that all 16 year-olds have the opportunity to cast their votes. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness— I am seeing two Lord Wallaces —is normally very sharp. He rebukes my noble friend Lord Ridley and says, “Of course, in Scotland, we’ve got it all fixed”. Yes, we have got it all fixed, but it took more than a year to produce the separate register for the Scottish referendum elections.
The Liberals and the Labour Party have been vociferous in arguing that individual registration would take far too long. The Government have been regularly harried about not giving enough time for people to register, and about some people being left off the vote. When my noble friend comes along with an amendment which says that it should be done in a proper manner attested by the Electoral Commission, they say that that is unnecessary and the commission does it anyway. If it is unnecessary and it does it anyway, what possible objection can there be to giving those 16 year-olds who do not live in Scotland the security of knowing
that they will have exactly the same opportunity as the Scots got by having a properly conducted register? I support my noble friend’s amendment.
7.45 pm
Baroness Morgan of Ely: My Lords, of course we want proper registration to take place. We know that it will take a bit of time, and that exercise is now, to an extent, in the hands of the Government. They could start that process now. They could already indicate the direction in which they would like to go. Whether the referendum will be held up or not is therefore in their hands.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Is the noble Baroness saying that the process of registration should start tomorrow? Surely it can start only after the Bill is granted Royal Assent.
Baroness Morgan of Ely: Of course I understand that we have to wait for Royal Assent, but people could start to gear up: they could be given an indication that this is on its way. It is in the hands of the Government to determine whether that happens. We could gain a couple of months if the Government got on with the job right now, now that we have had a clear indication from this House of the way we want to go
Of course we want proper registration. We have spoken to the Electoral Commission, which has made it clear that it thinks it can do this within a nine-month time frame. The electoral administration authorities have said the same thing. Electoral registration officers at local authority level, given resources, can also deliver it. We now have a rolling registration process. There is no cut-off date, as in the past. None of us knows the timing of the referendum. None of us knows whether the Prime Minister will be able to convince other member states of the merits of his reforms.
I agree that we need to make sure that there is sufficient time. I do not know how long that is, and I would like to know what the Electoral Commission thinks is sufficient time before agreeing to the amendment. Given the earlier vote and the clear indication from this House, I suggest that the Minister look seriously at what needs practically to be put in place, but the amendment is unnecessary.
Lord Willoughby de Broke (UKIP): The noble Baroness made light of the Electoral Commission’s recommendations. In the last paragraph on page 4 of its briefing, on registration, it states:
“This would need to be reinforced by significant public awareness activity at both the national and local level. Political literacy initiatives may also be needed, as were targeted working schools and other educational institutions to help get the message out to these groups quickly. Additional funding would also be needed to make sure that these activities could be delivered by EROs, the Commission and other relevant bodies”.
It is not a matter of snapping your fingers, waving a stick and saying, “It’s done”. It will take a long time, and I am sure that the right thing is to accept the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton. I hope that the House will agree with him.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con): My Lords, the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lord Hamilton of Epsom applies to individuals in the United Kingdom who are eligible to vote in the referendum but would not be eligible to vote in a parliamentary election. The amendment means that the Government would be unable to table draft regulations that set the date of the referendum until the Electoral Commission has certified that that group of eligible voters had received sufficient time to register to vote.
As my noble friend made clear, he was somewhat anticipating the result of the vote in this House in relation to 16 and 17 year-olds, and plainly had them in mind. I do not impugn his motives in tabling the amendment, although it is a rather late amendment—a starred amendment. As a result, the Electoral Commission has not had an opportunity to review it or to express an opinion. I question whether the commission would either welcome this suggestion or think it necessary. The commission’s role in referendums is set out in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. It is to help to deliver and regulate certain conduct in the referendum. In the most recent briefing referred to in the House, the Electoral Commission once again made it clear that a change in the franchise is a matter for Parliament and that the commission’s role is to,
“advise on the practical indications of any such change”.
This amendment would fundamentally change the relationship that the Government enjoy with the Electoral Commission, giving the commission unprecedented power. Determination of who can participate in the referendum, and when it is to be held, is a matter for the Government and Parliament, and not a matter that should be transferred, directly or indirectly, to the commission, or indeed any other body.
As noble Lords will be aware, the regulations that will set the date of the referendum will be subject to the affirmative procedure. This is a safeguard that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee has deemed appropriate. To prevent Parliament from even considering the date of the poll until all newly eligible electors have had sufficient opportunity to register to vote is unnecessary. This is a process that can happen in parallel.
I think it entirely possible that this amendment could be read simply as an attempt to delay the referendum poll—that was the subtext of one of the contributions—but perhaps that is not fair. It is a poll that this Government have committed to holding before the end of 2017. There seems to be a suggestion that the Government should be getting on with it now, notwithstanding that this Bill has not gone through the normal parliamentary stages. Unfair though it may be, the Liberal Democrats are not quite as well represented at the other end of the corridor as they are at this end—so the result of the next round of this saga is not something that one can anticipate. I am sure that it is not seriously suggested that the Electoral Commission should be tasked to get on now with what may not be necessary, depending on the ultimate outcome of this Bill.
I have made it clear that the Government firmly believe that the franchise used for the referendum should be based on the parliamentary franchise; subject
to further developments, there is to be a qualification on that, having regard to the vote that we had this afternoon. Once the legislation that will govern the referendum has been passed, the Government will then begin working with the Electoral Commission and local administrators straightaway. If a change to the franchise is to be made, we would need to ensure that newly eligible voters were aware of their right to vote and could register to do so. The Electoral Commission, as has rightly been pointed out, made it clear that there is no fixed period for implementation of a change. I corrected under the previous group of amendments the suggestion that 12 months must pass between legislation passing through Parliament to change the franchise, and the referendum itself.
The question is what should happen, and when, in relation to Royal Assent. If the referendum franchise is changed, the Government can start work after Royal Assent, rather than wait until the secondary legislation is in place—because, of course, there are various steps that have to follow Royal Assent. First, the referendum date has to be set; then the start date of the designation process has to be set; then the referendum period—the regulated period leading up to the poll—must be set; and the detailed conduct rules governing how the poll will be administered must be set. Then the designation process can take place. Under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act, that is a six-week process, with four weeks for applications, and two weeks for the Electoral Commission to make a decision. The referendum period will also need to occur.
Once the legislation has been passed, work can be done. If a change to the franchise were to be made, we would need to ensure that newly eligible voters were aware of their right, as has been pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke. As the Electoral Commission makes clear, the media and others will be expected to play a significant role in informing any newly enfranchised group of their rights, with 16 and 17 year-olds being at the moment those that may be enfranchised. It is a significant piece of work that has to be done; the Electoral Commission has a duty to discharge its role, and I respectfully say that it is not helpful to put it in the Bill or, indeed, to tell the Electoral Commission how to discharge its duty.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean: I have just been reflecting on what my noble friend seemed to imply—that there might be some tactical reason for the amendment. He did imply that, but he might just like to note that the people who have spoken in favour of this amendment all voted against extending the franchise and that, whether the Electoral Commission or the Government are required to do this, none of us would for a moment imagine that the Government would try to rush this process. Surely he would not want to imply that there were any tactics behind that.
Lord Faulks: I accept the gentle rebuke from my noble friend. If I seemed to imply that, I would like to disabuse him. The central message that I wish to convey is that there is no point in the Government trying to second-guess the motives behind amendments, nor indeed to try to anticipate how individuals will
vote in the event of a restriction or extension of the franchise. The question is whether the amendment is something that helps the Bill, and whether it is a reasonable amendment to incorporate in the Bill. We take the view that it is the Electoral Commission that should advise us how best to achieve what we must achieve, depending on what the legislation ends up telling us to do. It would not be appropriate to give the commission effectively a form of veto over the Government and Parliament’s decision as to whether a referendum should be held. I respectfully say that this Government, working with the commission, electoral registration officers and civil society will do all that they can to allow any newly enfranchised voter to have the opportunity to register. However, I am grateful to noble Lords for discussing an important fact—that there will need to be some work done to respond to any change in the franchise, and it will be challenging work. The Electoral Commission will do what it is supposed to do. But I respectfully ask my noble friend, without in any way impugning his motives, to withdraw his amendment, in the reassurance that its duties will be discharged, if it becomes necessary.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom: I am very disappointed in my noble friend, because he is basically saying that the advice of the Electoral Commission could be overridden. If he is not saying that, it is quite difficult to see why he is rejecting my amendment. I think that people will find it very difficult to understand how, on the one hand, you enfranchise 16 and 17 year-olds and then, on the other, leave the Government free to hold the referendum in three months when only one-quarter of the 16 and 17 year-olds are on the register. That is the illogicality of the position that he is in. However, I am incredibly heartened by the advice that he received from the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan, because she told him that he should go away and think again about this—and I seriously echo that sentiment. I shall withdraw the amendment now, but I want him to think very carefully about this, so I shall resubmit it at Third Reading. In the mean time, he can give some serious thought as to how the problem can actually be dealt with.
Schedule 1: Campaigning and financial controls
Amendments 7B and 8 not moved.
9: Schedule 1, page 8, line 7, at end insert—
“( ) The period prescribed under this paragraph must be a period which—
(a) is at least 10 weeks, and
(b) ends with the date of the referendum.”
Amendments 10 and 11 not moved.
Consideration on Report adjourned until not before 8.59 pm.
National Stroke Strategy
Question for Short Debate
8 pm
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to improve stroke services, care and support, and to update the national stroke strategy to commence implementation in 2017 when the existing 10-year plan ends.
Baroness Wheeler (Lab): My Lords, I am delighted to be leading this debate today. Over the past eight years, as a result of the national stroke strategy, which was brought in by my Government and carried forward by the previous Government, there have been huge improvements in stroke outcomes. Stroke is now treated as a medical emergency, patients are getting specialist treatment from specialist staff, fewer people are dying as a result of stroke, fewer people end up with a disability after stroke because they are treated in time and the public are now much more aware of stroke, how to spot it and what to do, thanks to the excellent Act FAST national advertising campaigns. Stroke mortality has almost halved and today most areas have a hospital with a dedicated stroke unit. The number of strokes in the UK has decreased from 88,000 in 1990 to 40,000 in 2013, and incidence rates decreased by 19% over a 10-year period. The welcome reduction in the prevalence and severity of disability that stroke survivors are left with is largely because of Act FAST.
These outcomes have happened because the national stroke strategy drove the reorganisation of acute care in hospitals and ensured that ambulance and emergency care staff knew the key actions to take as soon as they reached the patient, and because more families, carers and members of the public were aware that some form of stroke had occurred when they rang 999 and that they had to act fast. The early periods of the strategy between 2006 and 2009 also saw the number of stroke consultant sessions double and the increase of stroke specialisms in multidisciplinary teams. These are all key elements that have saved lives and, in the process, millions of pounds for the NHS.
The national strategy, and the equivalent national strategies in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, aimed at providing national leadership and drive from the centre to improve stroke outcomes. Today’s NHS in England is very different from the NHS in 2007 when the strategy was introduced. The changes have been enormous. As the current strategy draws to a close, the evidence shows not only the progress but just how much more needs to be done. There is wide and unacceptable variation in standards of care between and even within geographical areas. For example, in the north of England, 94% of stroke patients at North Tyneside General Hospital were assessed by an occupational therapist within 72 hours, but eight miles away at South Tyneside District Hospital, the figure was only 51%.
There are also still too many smaller hospital stroke units unable to offer 24/7 stroke care. The London and Manchester models of streamlining services in centres
of excellence have helped save lives, reduce disability and save money. The
NHS
F
ive
Y
ear
F
orward
V
iew
recognises stroke as a key area where concentration of care brings substantial improvements in the quality of care and outcomes. However, the 2015 stroke national audit programme—SSNAP—shows that, although stroke healthcare has improved overall, there are several hospitals not only underperforming but performing worse now than they were in the previous year. Nearly a quarter of patients admitted to hospital are placed in wards deemed unacceptable for dealing with stroke.
Since I put in for this debate, I understand that the Public Health Minister in another place has expressed reservations about the continuing need for a national strategy for stroke—this when stroke is still one of the top three causes of death in England, is the largest cause of adult disability in England and is costing the NHS more than £3 billion a year and society as a whole three times that, and also when CCGs’ record so far on commissioning stroke care, from prevention to long-term care, is so poor. Localised services that are accountable and sensitive to the needs of the communities they serve still need the leadership and direction of the national strategy, and I hope we will hear reassurances from the Minister today that the Government fully recognise this, because if they do not the progress made to date is in serious danger of being lost, and we will start to go backwards. The All-Party Parliamentary Group on Stoke, of which I am a vice-chair, has underlined the vital importance of the strategy continuing into the future.
The praise in NHS Five Year Forward View for the concentration of stroke care and the improvements to stroke outcomes will be just that without the framework of the national strategy. We know that most hospitals or CCGs will struggle to do this without direction and leadership from the centre, particularly in the face of huge financial pressures and cutbacks. Currently one in four commissioning bodies does not have an allocated lead for stroke services and only 56% have a commissioning group for stroke. Only 27% of CCGs, for example, commission vocational rehabilitation services which help stroke recoverers return to paid work, which is a major lost opportunity. How will the Government address these huge variations in quality and standards without an overarching national strategy to ensure that local service providers implement coherent stroke services from prevention to longer-term care?
The new strategy needs to set clear guidance on future reconfigurations of services to replicate the success of the London and Manchester stroke services and other models of care that have improved stroke outcomes. Reorganising and centralising stroke care has been proven to work, and this needs to be firmly set in the context of the forward view and the urgent need to reduce the number of people who are having strokes that could be avoided. For example, we heard in our recent debate on atrial fibrillation that better screening, diagnosis and treatment, including early detection of AF with an anticoagulant, would result in the prevention of more than 4,500 strokes a year and 3,000 deaths. Untreated AF is a contributing factor in 20% of strokes.
There are, of course, other key areas that the new stroke strategy needs to address, including the chronic underfunding of research into AF and stroke treatment and care compared with other killer diseases such as cancer and heart disease. The new strategy will also need to reflect the impact that new medicines, treatments and technologies, such as thrombectomy and anti-clot disrupting or retrieval treatment, could have on future care. More spending on research into the unmet needs of children who have strokes is particularly urgent. Childhood stroke affects around five out of every 100,000 children a year in the UK. People do not think that children have strokes, but they do, as the families of children who have had major strokes in the womb before birth, in early childhood or later in their teenage years know all too well. It is a key message for the awareness-raising campaign that is needed among health professionals, parents and the general public. What action do the Government intend to take to increase research funding into the unmet needs of childhood stroke, particularly into rapid diagnosis and treatment and whole-family support and advice, about which so little is currently known or understood?
Above all, the national strategy is needed to address the main area in which serious gaps in stroke care remain: post-acute care. There are around 1.2 million stroke survivors in the UK. Half of them have a long-term disability and require ongoing support. A seamless transition from hospital to home with domiciliary support, physio and occupational and speech therapy services in place is all too often the exception rather than the rule. As the carer of my partner, who had a major stroke eight years ago, I meet many stroke survivors and their carers, and their stories are frequently of a month or more waiting at home while services, adaptations and, particularly, therapies are arranged. This has to change if the five-year view of integrating care and shifting the focus into the community has any chance of being achieved.
Finally, I underline the everyday importance of being part of the stroke community to stroke survivors, their carers and their families. This is particularly important as today is carers’ rights day. In my area, we are very fortunate in having a very active stroke group just down the road run by the Stroke Association and an amazing local charity called TALK to support stroke survivors with speech, memory and communication difficulties. They are both run by volunteers. Other areas are not so lucky. Many people suffering severe strokes lose their speech altogether, but speech therapy, physical rehabilitation and occupational therapy sessions are hard to come by unless you pay or spend a long time waiting for precious NHS appointments to come free. Only 45% of NHS trusts commission outpatient therapy, which is hardly the strong support needed to get people out of hospital and able to have a good quality of life and independence in the community.
The SNAPP survey sums it up as follows:
“A portfolio of services is required to provide comprehensive post-acute stroke care ... including early supported discharge, longer term neurological rehabilitation, vocational rehabilitation, exercise programmes, vascular risk reduction advice and support, and longer term follow-up and intervention for patients whose
functional ability deteriorates. There is widespread variation nationally in commissioning a portfolio of post-stroke services, with too many areas failing to commission comprehensive care”.
I hope I rest my case on why it is imperative that the national stroke strategy should be updated and continue into the future. It must push the reorganisation of acute care, tackle the unacceptable variation in after-stroke care and drive new advances in prevention, treatment and research. Without a national strategy, reflective of a radically different NHS, local commissioners will continue to neglect the needs of stroke survivors, improvements in stroke care will stall, and outcomes for stroke survivors will get worse.
8.09 pm
Lord Colwyn (Con): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for raising this important issue. I have read the report of her debate just over a year ago when she drew our attention to the incidence of stroke in children, and I reread her contribution to the debate on atrial fibrillation on 4 November, which set the scene for our debate today. I congratulate the noble Baroness on the brilliant way in which she and my noble friend Lord Black have stimulated interest in the national stroke strategy. They have organised demonstrations of the walk-in clinics with Anti- Coagulation Europe and have had discussions with the all-party groups for stroke and atrial fibrillation—both of which I am a member of—about what might be the likely successor to the strategy in 2017.
I shall confine my few remarks to the need for a focus on prevention, particularly in relation to atrial fibrillation. I declare an interest in that I have atrial fibrillation myself, which is anticoagulated. Since the strategy was published in 2007, there have been significant advances in the prevention of AF-related stroke, including the introduction of new clinical guidelines and treatment options, but there is still more for the NHS to do and it is essential that preventing AF-related stroke is at the forefront of any new stroke strategy.
In 2014-15, there were 14,979 strokes in people with known AF and 8,831 strokes in people with known AF who were not on anticoagulation. Some 25 % of people with AF who were not anticoagulated before their stroke died, and a further 11% were severely disabled, bed-bound and in need of constant nursing care and attention. Ensuring that patients with AF are identified and anticoagulated in line with NICE guidelines could save lives, prevent disability and save the NHS money.
On average, the healthcare costs associated with an AF-related stroke are £11,900 in the first year of care alone, and the overall cost to the NHS of AF and AF-related illness has been estimated at £2.2 billion each year. I am sure we all agree that there is an urgent need for an improvement in the diagnosis of AF. Estimates suggest that about half of people with AF are undiagnosed, and therefore are not anticoagulated and are at risk of having a stroke.
The diagnosis of AF could be improved through the introduction of a national screening programme for AF in people over 65 and the introduction of pulse checks for older people at seasonal flu clinics and other settings, such as the dental surgery, where most patients are examined for problems that are likely to show up in future. Dental check-ups are unique in that
patients who are well arrange appointments to see if anything is wrong and could be prevented. Screening for AF is not currently recommended by the UK National Screening Committee. Would the Minister urge the committee to reconsider the evidence for the introduction of a national screening programme for people aged over 65?
There are now four non-vitamin K antagonist oral anticoagulants, called NOACs, recommended by NICE for the prevention of AF-related stroke. The NOACs were specifically designed to overcome the limitations of warfarin. They provide predictable, stable and reliable levels of anticoagulation and do not require routine monitoring, ongoing dose changes or dietary restrictions. All patients with AF should have access to the full range of NICE-recommended treatment options, and should have the opportunity to choose the treatment that is right for them in consultation with their doctor. At present, though, about 31% of eligible patients with AF receive no anticoagulation at all, and only 11% of anticoagulants prescribed are NOACs.
Will the Minister provide further information on what action the Government are taking to ensure that patients have access to the full range of NICE-recommended treatments? Would she consider providing specific support for clinical commissioning groups with the lowest rate of NOAC use to ensure that patients in those areas have better access to treatment?
8.14 pm
Lord Kakkar (CB): My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, on having secured this important debate, and I thank her for it. In so doing, I declare my own interests as chairman of University College London Partners and my own specific research interests in the area of cardiovascular disease, including those of stroke.
We have heard already in this important debate that stroke represents a substantial burden of disease. It is still the fourth commonest cause of death in our country, with an increase in prevalence of some 26% over recent years. This is because we have a growing and ageing population who are living as a result of successes in other areas in the practice of medicine, and are therefore susceptible to cardiovascular diseases. The lifestyle of much of our population, with increasing obesity, diabetes and other important cardiovascular risk factors, also heightens the risk of stroke. That means within the coming five years we would expect to see an increase in the number of deaths attributable to stroke in our country, to some 22,000 extra deaths a year by 2020. This is an important increase in the burden of the disease.
Beyond the physical burden, of course, there is the economic burden. The management of stroke costs us some £9 billion a year. Half that sum is due to health and social care costs and the remainder to informal care costs, costs associated with the loss of productivity in the economy and of course the benefits that need to be paid to those who, regrettably, have sustained a stroke.
Of course there is good news. We have heard from the noble Baroness about the success of the national stroke strategy, an important development in the mid-2000s, which has resulted in increased awareness among
the public about the importance of understanding the symptoms of stroke and responding to them early, thereby improving early attendance at hospital. Over the period of time of the stroke strategy, we have also seen that now, at some point in the course of the management of their illness, some 95% of patients who suffer a stroke are managed in a dedicated stroke unit.
However, while we have seen from the Sentinel Stroke National Audit Programme some interesting and exciting data on improvements in practice, we have also seen some very serious variations in practice. For instance, the audit shows us that when process and outcomes relating to practice in stroke units are graded, some two-thirds of them get the lowest possible grades, grade D or E, with only 2% of units achieving the highest grade, grade A. We see important variation in the most important feature of acute stroke management: timely intervention by way of radiological assessment of the nature of stroke, and intervention with regard to thrombolytic therapy to dissolve the blood clot responsible for the stroke or indeed more advanced interventions such as thrombectomy to remove the clot itself using interventional radiological techniques. The reality of that situation is that, although 60% of patients suffering a stroke are transferred from A&E to a stroke unit within four hours, the variation is from around 20% of patients in some hospitals to over 80% in others. That fourfold variation is clearly not appropriate, so we have to do more to improve acute stroke management.
I remind noble Lords of my declaration as chairman of University College London Partners. Our academic health science system has been at the forefront of moving forward the stroke treatment strategy in London, along with the other academic health science centres. This particular model has landed upon the development of eight hyper-acute stroke units in London that bring together expertise in radiology and acute intervention. Patients are taken directly by ambulance to the hyper-acute stroke unit, managed there for 72 hours and then transferred to one of 24 stroke units in London for their further management. That model has been shown to save 96 lives per year in London, providing a saving to the NHS in London of some £5 million a year in treatment costs. What plans are there to ensure that the experience in London, now extended to Manchester, can be assessed for its value and utility in other urban areas in our country? Clearly it may not be suitable for all rural areas.
Indeed, how will the national stroke strategy be built on in future to address questions of better prevention, better identification of high-risk populations and the further extension of successful models at scale and pace to improve clinical outcomes?
8.19 pm
Lord Lansley (Con): My Lords, I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for securing this debate and for the chance for me, early in my opportunity to contribute to debates in this House, to talk about an issue that is close to my heart.
The noble Baroness and some Members of the House may recall that I was chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Stroke for seven years, before the 2010 election. The noble Baroness is quite right—it was a very important time for the development of stroke services, and Members of both Houses, as well as the Stroke Association, can take some credit for keeping a consistent focus on the treatment of stroke as a medical emergency. It has dramatically shifted over that decade from being thought of as a condition which people suffered—they had a stroke and then nothing much happened—to something that was treated as an emergency. Now, increasingly, we are beginning to see the development of more effective pathways for treatment that follow the acute emergency care, which is very important. It all goes back to the National Audit Office report back in 2005—so much of it flowed from that. We should not forget the critical role that should be played by the constructive but critical scrutiny that can be placed upon the service.
We have done a great deal but, as they say, there is more to do. We now know from the evidence, which the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, eloquently set out, that a significant proportion of patients who are admitted as a medical emergency can benefit from acute care for ischemic stroke. One day I hope that the research will enable us to do something for patients who suffer a haemorrhagic stroke. However, the point is that making that very early diagnosis is absolutely critical to get patients on the right path.
We know that if patients are admitted to a specialist stroke unit rapidly, receive intensive therapy in the early stages after their stroke, and are discharged relatively early with support, all of those actions will have a significant impact upon their outcomes and, as a consequence, from the health service’s point of view, will be a major benefit as regards the reduction of long-term disability. The NHS, I hope—that was my intention—should be focused on outcomes and focused for the benefit of patients on reducing the disability consequences of stroke. We will have more patients with stroke to deal with—the noble Lord is quite right about that—but that does not mean that we should not be relentlessly focused on trying to increase consistently the proportion of those patients who suffer a stroke but who avoid mortality in the 30 days after that stroke and whose long-term level of disability is reduced. I should declare an interest as a stroke survivor myself. I had my stroke 23 years ago or so, in a very different age. We can do much more for stroke patients today.
There is a need in the midst of that for the department to act as steward of the system. For the NHS, through NHS England and the commissioners, there is a responsibility to secure the best possible outcomes. There is a need to commission for the best care to meet those quality standards; I was privileged to launch the first quality standards that NICE produced, which were on stroke. However, through the stewardship of the system, the Department of Health and Ministers are able to tie together the public health activity, and we here can hold the system to account. In his reference to screening for AF my noble friend made it clear how there is a public health benefit and activity to be determined there. The social care support that follows
discharge of patients in the long term is of critical importance, as, of course, is the research activity. There is now ample evidence that more research activity on stroke can pay enormous dividends as regards securing the best pathway for treatment.
In the midst of that, I will make a plea. The better care fund is a large NHS fund, whose purpose is to enable patients to leave hospital and be looked after in the community with their social care much better adapted in the future, relieving burdens on the social care system in the long run using NHS resources. There would be no better place to focus some of this better care fund than on the support of stroke patients to receive early supported discharge after they have had a stroke.
8.24 pm
Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB): My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for securing this important debate.
It is said that when stroke strikes, it affects everyone who loves that person. How true this is. Every three and a half minutes someone in the UK has a stroke. Some time ago my late husband had a stroke while sitting in his armchair watching cricket on the TV. I was in the room on the telephone and I noticed immediately what was happening. When the ambulance came he did not want to be disturbed from the cricket. I followed in my car, and when I got to the hospital I was left in his room with a young student nurse from South Africa. The questions on the admission form were so inappropriate that she gave up trying to fill it in. The student nurse and I undressed him, and as soon as we got his pyjamas on, we had to change them. I had to show the nurse how to roll him, as he was a big man. When I left his room I found a charge nurse and a female chatting at the nurses’ station. Why the male nurse did not come to help remains a mystery to this day. My husband was admitted in the middle of the morning; by evening he had not been seen by a consultant and no treatment had been given, nor had he had a scan. In desperation I telephoned the chairman of the hospital, who I knew, and she got the consultant, who was in his house, to visit.
That experience is why it is so important to have a national stroke strategy and to update it in 2017, when the present 10-year plan ends. I am pleased that owing to the strategy, treatment has got better, but it is still patchy across the country. Some stroke treatment is excellent but some can still be improved. Stroke is one of the top three causes of death and the largest cause of adult disability in England, costing the NHS over £3 billion. My noble friend Lord Kakkar said that it is £9 billion, so perhaps it has risen. Some people do not know that young people and even babies also have strokes.
Prevention is so important. Atrial fibrillation can cause strokes. Automatic arrhythmia detection loop monitors will greatly improve the detection of AF. At a screening last week for AF, several of your Lordships were picked up as having AF, which shows how important screening is.
When someone has a stroke, you must act fast. At the debate on AF in your Lordships’ House recently I stressed that there is a need to have first aid taught in
schools so that many lives can be saved by people who know and have confidence to help save lives in threatening circumstances. Little did I know that there is currently a Bill in another place on first aid in schools, presented by Teresa Pearce MP. I hope that it succeeds.
The streamlining of specialist services with specially trained staff, which has saved lives and money, needs to continue as we build upon the improvements in acute care. This can only be pushed through at a national level.
Post-acute care, where the most serious problems persist, is where many survivors and their families are not getting the help that they need. This has to be improved. Some people do not have family support and have to rely on carers and a variety of help. It is worrying that, with the cuts to local authorities, services such as Meals on Wheels are being reduced or cut. All those providing care services, including volunteers, should work in collaboration. We must improve the service.
8.29 pm
Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con): My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness for bringing forward this debate on a subject that is all too often overlooked. Strokes are devastating—they not only kill but cruelly maim. I have seen it personally. My father, aunt and mother-in-law all had strokes, so I know only too well about the terrible suffering and anguish that they cause. For some, it will be the end of their normal functioning lives, and even those who return to independent living often feel very vulnerable and suffer from depression.
Sadly, strokes are all too common. In the UK around 150,000 people suffer a stroke every year and, as we have heard, it is one of the largest causes of death. Even when not fatal, strokes can be desperately debilitating. My aunt changed from being an energetic, lively and outgoing person to being paralysed down one side and unable to speak. Even the mildest strokes tend to leave a mark.
Despite all that, there is a concerning lack of awareness of the symptoms, of the fact that, as we have heard, people of any age, including children, are susceptible, of the risk being greater among those of Asian or African origin, and, perhaps more importantly, of the fact that so-called mini-strokes are often a precursor to a much larger, more threatening stroke. It is estimated that if mini-strokes were properly identified and treated, around 10,000 major strokes could be prevented each year.
The noble Baroness, Lady Masham, highlighted very well how prevention is crucial, and many strokes are preventable. Much can done to reduce the risks: diets, alcohol consumption and levels of exercise can all play a key role. Underlying conditions such as high blood pressure need controlling where possible. As we heard from my noble friend Lord Colwyn, less well known is the fact that atrial fibrillation can also be a serious risk factor.
The national stroke strategy, which was introduced in 2007 and to which many have alluded, has sought to develop and implement a comprehensive way of treating strokes. A further milestone was the set of quality
standards focusing on clinical aspects developed in 2010. The National Audit Office has found that these have not only improved outcomes but saved the National Health Service an estimated £456 million since 2007. Where research leads to the development of new, improved treatments, it is important that these are adopted because, although they may be initially more expensive, in the long term they will improve lives and thus will equate to further financial savings.
More needs to be done so that people recognise when someone is having a stroke, as outcomes for stroke patients are intrinsically linked to response speed. The acronym FAST—face, arms, speech, time—is now the standard for identifying stroke symptoms. For strokes caused by clots, there is a maximum three-hour window to administer clot-busting drugs that will minimise damage. After that, it is too late. However, according to the Stroke Association, 60% of stroke emergency attendees at A&E arrive out of time. Rapid response from ambulance services is crucial, particularly in rural areas, where hospitals with the necessary expertise may be a long way away. Therefore, I ask the Minister whether monitoring is in place to ensure that all those who call for an ambulance in response to a stroke receive timely treatment, wherever they live.
I understand that nearly half of all stroke patients are scanned within an hour of reaching hospital, and 90% within 12 hours, but what about the 50% who are not scanned within one hour? How many of them could have been helped had they been? And are patients who need speech therapy or physiotherapy now given enough to enable them to make as good a recovery as possible? My aunt, some years ago, was offered speech therapy once a week when she actually needed it several times a day in short bursts if she was ever going to speak again. Consequently, she never did. Can I have an assurance from the Minister that older patients are given the best possible treatment? Anecdotally, I have heard of cases where those over the age of 75 are less bothered with. Much more attention also needs to be given to rehabilitation, as in a survey of stroke survivors 43% said that they wanted more therapy support once discharged home.
I, too, hope that the national stroke strategy will be revisited at the end of its current implementation period in 2017. Consultation with a wide range of healthcare professionals, stroke sufferers, carers and voluntary organisations will ensure that a revised strategy builds on the gains and adopts the latest research and treatment.
To conclude, I hope that the Government will ensure that stroke medicine across the country is adequately provided for and funded, including prevention measures, timely access to specialist services and necessary aftercare support and therapy, including psychological support. This, in turn, will mean better outcomes, healthier lives and a lower overall cost to the taxpayer.
8.35 pm
Lord Lisvane (CB): My Lords, I should preface my remarks with a declaration: I am the patron of Herefordshire Headway, which provides services to adults who have a head injury or an acquired brain injury. It does marvellous work through its day centre, offering a range of activities and therapies led by specialists.
I warmly endorse the view of the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, that there needs to be a continuing national strategy, and I suggest that an important emphasis must be on increased resources for rehabilitation. I was delighted to hear what the noble Lord, Lord Lansley —I hope that, in view of our former happy and close working relationship, I may on this occasion call him my noble friend—said about funding at the point of discharge and thereafter.
In terms of rehabilitation, there needs to be greater availability of physiotherapy. Frequently, that is only 30 minutes or so a week, which clearly is simply not enough. Repetitive movement of affected limbs may well help the development of new brain pathways and connections. The improvement of robotic machines to help in this will play an important part, but once again resources are key. It is a real challenge for people to do the hard slog of rehabilitation on their own. Group support can make a real difference. Here again rehabilitation centres where that group support is available have an important part to play. There is a lot of scope for much greater joint working between the NHS and rehabilitation centres such as Headway, and for joint funding between health and social care. Rehabilitation after stroke helps people rebuild their lives, and the lives of their families. That in itself should be a strong argument for it to be a spending priority. But also it is the wider community that benefits, and faster and more effective rehabilitation leads to savings in other areas as well, as my noble friend Lord Kakkar pointed out a few minutes ago.
Point 7 in the original strategy’s 10-point plan for action is spot-on in seeking to ensure that,
“health, social care and voluntary services together provide the long-term support people need”.
“Is commissioning and planning integrated across the whole care pathway in your area?”.
Spot-on indeed, but has it really happened?
If availability of longer-term support through the charities, with their low overheads and costs per hour, could be built into the national stroke pathway then CCGs would be encouraged to commission the most appropriate providers in their area. I am confident that we would thereby get more for less.
8.39 pm
Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, I start by congratulating all those who lobbied for the 10-year national strategy and all those who have made it work so well. If it had not been for the vision behind its establishment, and the hard work and co-operation of all those who have made it work, many more people would have died of stroke and many more survivors would have struggled with inadequate services.
Clearly, the additional specialist services and the community stroke teams have been a great success. However, every plan of this nature, especially those starting from a low base, has to be seen as a work in progress. The national stroke strategy is one of those for several reasons.
Medical research has, of course, moved on over the eight years of the strategy so far, and new ways of preventing stroke and treating and supporting people
who have a stroke have emerged. In addition, because of the lowered mortality rate, there are now more people living with the consequences of stroke, and they require support. Add to that the changes in the structure of the NHS and commissioning since the strategy began, and the further pressures on the NHS which we have debated many times in your Lordships’ House, and we find ourselves looking at a strategy that needs updating, even though it has not yet reached its nominal sell-by date. So I am most grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for giving us this opportunity to take a long, hard look at it.
It is clear from the briefings we have received that the scope of the strategy needs to be wider to include vascular dementia, a set of conditions that are closely linked to what we normally think of as stroke because they affect the delivery of blood to the brain. It is also clear to me that we need to invest in the wonderful new methods of prevention that have been mentioned.
Many of today’s speakers will, like me, have attended the walk-in briefing and testing session about atrial fibrillation last week—I was delighted to get a big green tick. I was impressed by the modest cost and ease of use of the kit, which can identify atrial fibrillation, and its potential for preventing strokes before they happen. I look forward to the analysis of the pilot scheme, which is putting 200 units into GP practices. Prevention is always better than cure, especially when action can be taken to prevent a serious condition such as stroke. I hope that the Minister’s department will look carefully at the cost-effectiveness of this initiative. Combine this screening with access to the NOAC drugs mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, and we have a formula for saving lives and saving money.
We know that strokes kill about a quarter of sufferers outright, as I know from personal experience in my family. When I listened to the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, I thought, “Well, if you’re going to have a stroke, the best place to have it is in London”. But 20 years ago, when my late husband had a massive stroke, it was in Brussels. He was picked up by an ambulance in minutes, and within half an hour of collapsing in our hotel room was in a scanner being screened. That is why I think that four hours is an awfully long time.
We know a great deal about the lifestyle changes that can help to prevent strokes, but successive Governments have struggled to persuade the population to take these known preventive measures. Perhaps we need another public information campaign. I think that the public still lack knowledge of how to recognise when someone is having a stroke, as the noble Baroness, Lady Hodgson, outlined. Having taken an interest in the matter, I think that I know what to look for, but many people do not. Go out on to the street and ask people—despite the public information campaigns that we have already had, I think at least half of people would not know what to look for. We have to keep on telling them.
Given that successful outcomes depend a great deal on rapid diagnosis and access to treatment, it is vital that we have regular public information campaigns as part of the new stroke strategy. I suggest that such campaigns combine information on how to avoid having a stroke yourself alongside the messages about how to
recognise it in others. If those around you recognise that you are having a stroke and call for help quickly, you have a much better chance of survival—and survival without serious disability.
The other thing that has been criticised in the briefings and by some noble Lords tonight is the patchiness of services for stroke survivors. This can only get worse, unless local commissioners are on the ball. We have learned from the briefings about the economic and lifestyle benefits of speech and language assessment and therapies for stroke patients, but not all patients have access to adequate amounts of these. They are clearly services which need to move seamlessly from hospital into the community, but they vary a lot from place to place. As a lay person, I have long been aware of the need for physiotherapy for legs and arms that have been damaged by stroke and for help with speech problems, but I was not aware, before I read the briefing, of how widespread swallowing difficulties are. Apparently, 40% of stroke victims have difficulty swallowing and a third have communication problems. What can the department can do to ensure, first, that there is an adequate supply of speech and language therapists—I believe there is a shortage—and, secondly, that CCGs are aware of the benefits of providing the services that have been discussed this evening?
Finally, do we really have to wait another two years to amend the national stroke strategy? The evidence is there. Why can we not start now?
8.45 pm
Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con): My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, for initiating this debate. As so often with these short debates, this was of a high standard, and I only wish we had longer to discuss the issues. Stroke is one of England’s biggest killers and is the largest single cause of serious adult disability in this country. Its effects can be devastating, both for those who have a stroke and for their families and loved ones. However, good progress on stroke has been made in recent years—the mortality rate has fallen by almost 12% since 2010—but we know more needs to be done.
Both the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, and my noble friend Lord Lansley spoke about the national stroke strategy and asked whether we are going to carry it on. There are no current plans to do so. The reason for this decision is that the NHS Five-Year Forward View recognises that quality of care, including stroke care, can be variable and that patients’ needs are changing and new treatment options are emerging. The Five-Year Forward View sets out high-level objectives to address these issues. Initiatives include ongoing work in virtually all parts of the country to organise acute stroke care to ensure that all stroke patients have access to high-quality specialist care, regardless of where they live or what time of day or day of the week they have their stroke.
The Cardiovascular Disease Outcome Strategy, published in 2013, includes many stroke-specific strategic ambitions. Alongside this, a CVD expert forum hosted by NHS England will co-ordinate delivery of the work initiated in the CVDOutcome Strategy. Also, NHS England’s national clinical director for stroke
works with the strategic clinical networks, voluntary agencies and individual providers to support best commissioning and provision of stroke care. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, I want to pay tribute to the Stroke Association, the Carers Trust and the Princess Royal Trust for Carers, which do so much to help stroke victims.
Alongside initiatives being put into place when the national strategy comes to an end in 2017 is the Clinical Commissioning Group Outcomes Indicator Set, known as the CCGOIS. These are indicators for improving recovery from stroke. People who have had a stroke who are admitted to a stroke unit within four hours of arrival in hospital receive thrombolysis following an acute stroke, are discharged from hospital with a joint health and social care plan, receive a follow-up assessment between four to eight months after initial admission, and spend 90% or more of their stay on an acute stroke unit. These indicators are being monitored by the Sentinel Stroke Audit Programme.
I want to touch on prevention, which is so important if we are to see fewer stroke victims in our hospitals. First, we know that obesity and high salt intake greatly increase the risk of stroke. Tackling obesity, particularly in children, is one of our key priorities. We will put forward our plans for action in our childhood obesity strategy in the new year. Alongside this, the UK salt reduction programme is world leading, with the population’s average salt intake being reduced by 15%. Major retailers, manufacturers and caterers are working to meet these targets by December 2017.
Secondly, simple lifestyle changes can help reduce the risk of stroke, as we all know. Public Health England is working with a range of public sector and commercial partners to promote healthy behaviour across the course of life. These include encouraging greater physical activity, highlighting the harms of smoking and drinking and urging older people to make sure that they take action on the signs and symptoms of stroke.
Thirdly, the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, mentioned the treatment of atrial fibrillation, as did the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. We covered most of the issues in our recent debate, but it is a high priority in NHS England’s Five Year Forward View. As we know, AF is a major cause of stroke. I want to mention NHS Improving Quality, which has developed GRASP-AF, an audit tool to identify patients with AF who are not receiving treatment. There are also the quality and outcomes framework indicators on the use of anticoagulation therapy for AF patients to incentivise good practice in prescribing anticoagulants in primary care. Screening for AF will be discussed at a meeting on 2 December—in which I think the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, will take part with my noble friend Lord Prior—where more will come out about what the plans are for such screening.