House of Lords
Tuesday, 12 January 2016.
2.30 pm
Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Rochester.
Refugees: Eritrea
Question
2.36 pm
Asked by Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the recent UN Special Rapporteur’s report on the plight of unaccompanied minors who are refugees from Eritrea.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con): My Lords, the Government recognise the plight of unaccompanied children and have carefully studied the special rapporteur’s report. Country information and guidance is based on an objective assessment of the situation in Eritrea using evidence from a range of sources, including that of the Commission of Inquiry on Human Rights in Eritrea.
Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead (Lab): I thank the Minister for his response. As he has said, the UN special rapporteur’s report highlights the appalling situation of unaccompanied children from Eritrea who travel into and across Europe seeking sanctuary. The UK has a long history of supporting young victims of persecution, such as during the Second World War, so will the Government now respond to last week’s recommendation from the International Development Select Committee and agree to take at least 3,000 of the most vulnerable refugee children already in Europe, many of whom are from Eritrea?
Lord Bates: As my noble friend Lady Anelay has made clear, we took very seriously the UN special rapporteur’s report on the situation in Eritrea. In fact, it was the basis of the ongoing Article 8 dialogue with the EU as part of the Khartoum process. It seems that the Eritrean Government have given an undertaking to limit national service, which was the principal driver of a lot of the migration flows. On the noble Baroness’s second point, we have had an opportunity to look at the Select Committee’s report, which was published on 5 January and is very thorough. We will be responding to it in due course but it raises a number of very important issues.
Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB): My Lords, will the Minister confirm that the June 2015 report of the UN commission of inquiry said that probable crimes against humanity are being committed in Eritrea? That is why there has been such a haemorrhaging of the population, with 10% of the people—some 350,000—having fled thus far. If we do not come to terms with the root causes, will not those massive numbers of migrants continue
to rise? What are we doing to pursue the recommendations in that report? Furthermore, does the Minister not recognise that when those migrants leave Eritrea, the story is not over, as the beheadings in Libya by ISIS only go to prove?
Lord Bates: That is absolutely right. It was a horrific report and it is not something on which the British Government are standing idly by. It is an issue on which we have engaged with the Eritrean Government through our embassy in Asmara. There was a meeting between the Foreign Minister and James Brokenshire at the margins of the EU and African Union conference in Rome in November, and that was followed up by a visit by Foreign Office and Home Office officials to assess the situation there. We continue to put great pressure on the Eritrean Government to live up to the commitments that they have made. It is only by tackling the cause of the problem, whether in Eritrea or Syria, that we can hope to stem the flow that results in the consequences that the noble Lord has highlighted.
The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for highlighting what is causing the problem. The UN special rapporteur has identified in this report quite a number of reasons that are driving this terrible situation and, in particular, highlighted human rights issues. A number of people have been arrested, such as the politician Mr Ali Omaro, journalists and the G15 group. Can the Minister update us on the situation of those high-profile people who have been arrested and detained?
Lord Bates: In response to the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, there was, on 15 July last year, a response from the Government, by my noble friend Lady Anelay, to that specific report. One of the problems with that report was that the rapporteur, disgracefully in our opinion, was not given access to Asmara and could not go to Eritrea to engage and find out for herself. That is why the dialogues that have been undertaken by Foreign Office officials and James Brokenshire are so important in establishing what is happening on the ground and in holding the Eritrean Government to account on the commitments that they have given.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett (Lab): My Lords, can I go back to the Question of my noble friend Lady Kinnock? The proposal to resettle 3,000 unaccompanied refugee children is not a new one. On 2 September, the Prime Minister said that the Government would discuss it further. On 2 December, he said that they would think about it some more. Yet here we are, a further month on. I plead with the Minister to inject some urgency into these discussions. Every day that a positive decision is not taken, more children are left vulnerable to trafficking, to the cold, to disease or even death.
Lord Bates: When we hear about this situation, as when the Prime Minister heard about it, the immediate instinct is to think that there are, somewhere, 3,000 unaccompanied children waiting to find placement. Of course, 3,000 is an estimate of the total number, and where they are in the system is clearly a matter to
be defined. We think that the way to do that is through the Dublin regulations and by making sure that they are properly recorded when they arrive in the UK. It is worth noting that the conclusion to that report said:
“We strongly commend DFID for setting an exemplary standard in its commitment to funding humanitarian assistance to address the Syrian crisis”.
That is part of the solution, but there is more to be done, and the Prime Minister will make an announcement on his review when he has examined all the facts.
Baroness Hamwee (LD): My Lords, do the Government recognise that some of the factors identified in the special rapporteur’s report—fear of forced conscription; fear of facing the same ordeal as their parents, including imprisonment on the basis of religious affiliation; hopelessness, and so on—are push factors, which are different from the pull factors that are often talked about by the Home Secretary? Will he accept that if the Government recognised some of the push factors at play, tragedies might be avoided, such as that which happened a few days ago, when a young boy died trying to cross the channel to join his sister in the UK, even though I am advised that he would have been entitled to have his case considered here under Dublin III?
Lord Bates: It is right to point to that. We have seen an increase from 2012, when 80 unaccompanied asylum-seeking children from Eritrea came to the UK, to last year, when 460 came. The noble Baroness rightly identifies that the point behind that is the arbitrary nature of national service. The Government have given a commitment that that will now be limited to 18 months. The second factor which we weighed in their favour was the fact that they required an exit visa that required them to have completed national service before they could leave the country. That is why we continue to take very seriously applications for asylum from that country, particularly from unaccompanied asylum-seeking children.
Children: Obesity
Question
2.45 pm
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure that children, especially girls, grow up fit and healthy, in the light of the recent report on the dangers of obesity in women in adult life.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Prior of Brampton) (Con): My Lords, tackling obesity and creating a fit and healthy society, particularly in girls and boys, is one of our major priorities. As we have previously said, we will be publishing our comprehensive childhood obesity strategy in the new year, and we will be doing so shortly.
Baroness Benjamin (LD): I thank the Minister for that Answer. As he said, childhood obesity has become the biggest public health challenge in the UK, with nearly a third of our 10 year-olds overweight. High sugar consumption means tooth decay and is the most common cause of hospital admissions among five to nine year-olds. Half of seven year-olds have less than an hour of daily exercise, and we all know that obesity and inactivity lead to major adult health problems. Shockingly, 29% of UK children are overweight as mothers risk having overweight children. What are the Government doing to address the educational and environmental factors that are causing this obesity crisis? Will they start by urgently introducing a mandatory sugar reduction target applicable to all firms in the food and drink industry?
Lord Prior of Brampton: My Lords, we all recognise, as does the Prime Minister, that obesity is a scourge in this country that affects many thousands of young people. Some 2.1 billion people worldwide are overweight or obese, so it is a huge global problem that requires a comprehensive strategic response. I hope that our obesity strategy will be announced in the very near future.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab): My Lords, in developing this strategy, is his department talking to the Department for Education? He will understand that this is a particular issue at primary school level. There is evidence that the incessant determination of the Government to test primary school children at every age at every moment is squeezing the curriculum of playtime and physical activity. I hope that his department will talk to the Department for Education to turn this around.
Lord Prior of Brampton: My Lords, we have got to have a collective response to the obesity problem across many government departments, as the all-party parliamentary group made clear in its paper. Education is a critical part of that. The noble Lord will know that in the spending review the Government committed to continue the PE and sports premium in primary schools because we recognise that physical exercise and playtime at all levels in schools, but particularly in the early years, are vitally important.
Baroness Heyhoe Flint (Con): My Lords, I recommend to my noble friend that sport may be the panacea for many of the problems mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Benjamin. A new strategy for sport which targets young primary school children has just been issued, but does my noble friend agree that this dreadful problem needs a cross-departmental approach involving health, environment and transport, including cycling and walking? We should not spread the butter too thin as far is sport is concerned—or perhaps I should say the low-fat spread in this instance.
Lord Prior of Brampton: My Lords, my noble friend is right that we have to involve all departments. For example, she mentioned the environment. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that urban and educational
environments can be designed so that children spend more time walking. The development of cycleways in London is another example of how we can design our environment to improve the level of physical exercise that we take.
Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords—
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB): Can the Minister outline what is being done specifically in relation to women in pregnancy, given that excessive weight gained in pregnancy, which is often linked to the phrase “eating for two”, is very difficult to lose afterwards, particularly if women do not breastfeed? Moreover, postnatal depression can itself be a cause of excessive eating after delivery of the baby, causing the maintenance or even aggravation of obesity. That requires specific services to target these women.
Lord Prior of Brampton: The noble Baroness will know that the report of the Chief Medical Officer which came out two or three weeks ago laid particular stress on the importance of women who are pregnant because of the impact of obesity not just on themselves but on their children as well. Advice is available through NHS Choices, Start4Life and Healthy Start; we have various schemes that are focused on pregnant women. I am sure that we can do more, and perhaps when the government strategy on obesity is announced in the near future, it will address that issue as well.
Lord Winston (Lab): My Lords, given that homo sapiens is a species that is programmed to eat carbohydrate and fat, what estimate have the Government made of how much childhood obesity is due to epigenetic factors rather than simply eating sugar and carbohydrate later on in life? Might this not be programming earlier in the generation perhaps as the result of previous generations’ environment? This is an essential point in understanding obesity.
Lord Prior of Brampton: The noble Lord makes an interesting point to which I cannot give an answer from the Dispatch Box. It is clear that epigenetic factors are important. It is not just about behaviour: rather, it is also the genes that we have inherited from our forebears and the fact that we have entirely different nutrition and an entirely different way of life today from that of 70,000 years ago. Would it be all right if I write to the noble Lord and explain that more fully?
Syria
Question
2.52 pm
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made towards a settlement of the conflict in Syria.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Anelay of St Johns) (Con): My Lords, as a result of efforts by the International Syria Support Group over the past three months, on 18 December the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 2254 requesting the UN to convene the Syrian Government and opposition for negotiations on a transition process. These negotiations are due to start on 25 January and will be a welcome step towards ending the conflict, but clearly there is still a long way to go.
Lord Soley (Lab): I welcome that Answer and the progress, however slow, that is being made. Can I ask the Minister to say a bit more about Russian policy, which has always troubled me? It seems that Russia is determined not to let Assad or his party lose power. If that is the case, I am afraid that sooner or later, and difficult though it will be, we may have to reassess whether we have relations with that part of Syria and the Government of Syria as it was.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: The noble Lord is right to point to the concern we have had that Russia’s military tactics appear to have been aimed more at keeping Assad in power than at attacking Daesh. I hope that Russia will consider that carefully and aim its attacks on Daesh instead, and that it will use all the levers in its power which it has with the Assad regime to persuade Assad to come to the talks and make sure that his team is engaged in true negotiations about peace in order to achieve a transition process. But the noble Lord is right is point to the difficulties involved.
Lord Howell of Guildford (Con): My Lords, can my noble friend tell us what importance and significance the British Government assign to the plan for Saudi Arabia and the GCC countries to form a 34-nation alliance to tackle Daesh? Are we supporting that and, if so, in what way? Can she also say what support we are giving to the Jordanians in their attempt to build a northern buffer zone in Syria and from that to drive into the Daesh heartlands? Is that something which we are also supporting?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, Saudi Arabia has been involved in convening a meeting of all those moderates who have been fighting against Assad’s oppression in Syria. We commend the advances that they have made with regard to that to ensure that there should then be a group of moderates who are able to come to the peace talks. With regard to Jordan, I have to say that it is too soon to be able to give a full answer to my noble friend. However, I will say that talks are progressing on ensuring that there may be a way of having a zone in the north of Jordan which enables those who have fled from Assad’s tyranny to rebuild their lives. But I would not wish to go further than that at this moment. I will do as soon as we are able to confirm details.
Lord Wright of Richmond (CB): My Lords, in his earlier reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, the noble Lord, Lord Bates, drew attention to the role of the embassy in Eritrea in handling the problems of
that country. Does the noble Baroness agree that it is high time that we re-establish a diplomatic presence in Damascus?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, the noble Lord is right to point clearly to the value of all our ambassadors and those who work with them around the world. At this point, it is important that we see Assad’s regime take seriously the peace negotiations that are just within grasp. If we are able to see that he comes constructively to those negotiations to achieve the transition, I feel that we would look very positively at how we might engage further. We need to see how Assad reacts to the peace process first.
Lord Anderson of Swansea (Lab): My Lords—
Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon (LD): My Lords—
The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con): My Lords, on this occasion, we have not heard from the Lib Dems, so I suggest we go there first.
Lord Ashdown of Norton-sub-Hamdon: I am grateful. My Lords, we dropped food to besieged and starving Srebrenica and to besieged and starving Yazidis. If, after Madaya, local forces of whatever nature should block the legal access of UN convoys bringing aid to besieged communities, will the Government with others seriously consider the possibility of dropping food aid to them?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, the noble Lord is right to point to the appalling position for those who find themselves being starved out by Assad. Of course, some areas are under siege by Daesh and some by opposition groups, but mostly by Assad and Daesh. For the RAF to operate in the area of Madaya would have caused great—perhaps I may say—peril, in security terms. The right way to go forward is for Assad to grant the applications by the UN to have safe progress through. He has agreed so far only to 10% of those requests.
Lord Anderson of Swansea: My Lords, the Government’s initiative on convening and hosting the pledging conference is most welcome but first there has to be a settlement. Reverting to the Question posed by my noble friend Lord Soley, does the Minister agree that the Russian intervention has bolstered the position and strength of President Assad and can only complicate the search for a settlement? Does Russia recognise the effect of its intervention?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: The danger is that Russia’s action may well have strengthened Assad’s hand and makes it more difficult, perhaps, for Assad to see the benefit of a peace process. That is why I call on Russia to use its levers of influence with Assad to make sure that he takes the transition process seriously and comes to the table on the peace negotiations. I believe that the Syria crisis conference can go ahead
even before that peace has been achieved. It can show the way that we can achieve stabilisation in Syria in the future.
Lord Naseby (Con): Has my noble friend seen the report from the respected Carnegie Institute, which suggests that the southern front is the last key point for the Syrian rebels? As that front appears to be crumbling, does that not reinforce the point that somehow or other Assad has to be involved in the solution so that everyone can then concentrate on ISIS?
Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My noble friend points to the instability in the south of the country. This is really what was being referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, with regard to the fact that Russia has been involved in attacking civilians in opposition-held territory that is not Daesh. Assad is not part of the solution. It is certainly the case that he is a recruiting sergeant for Daesh. However, it is important that he sees the value for his regime to take part in the peace negotiations.
Flooding: Tourist Attractions
Question
2.59 pm
Asked by Baroness Harris of Richmond
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they intend to support tourist attractions, such as the Jorvik Viking Centre in York, which suffered flooding over the Christmas period.
The Earl of Courtown (Con): My Lords, this Government are committed to supporting all businesses, including tourism businesses, affected by the floods. We are currently working with VisitEngland and VisitBritain to highlight what is on offer and to encourage visitors to book holidays to the region in the Easter period. In the longer term, we are supporting the tourist industry through the development and delivery of a five-point plan which sets out our vision for tourism in this Parliament.
Baroness Harris of Richmond (LD): My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. When I visited the Jorvik Viking Centre in York last week, it was a scene of utter devastation. The centre attracts more than 400,000 visitors a year and has had more than 18 million visitors since it opened in 1984. It is a world-renowned tourist attraction and educational centre, provided by the excellent York Archaeological Trust, of which I am a member and which depends largely on its funding from the Viking centre. The trust could be destroyed by this enormous loss of revenue. The City of York Council and North Yorkshire County Council are anxious to see this important centre brought back to life as soon as possible, as we all are. So will Her Majesty’s Government urgently match any funding that the councils can make possible to enable and encourage this to happen?
The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right in saying that the Jorvik Viking Centre is of international renown, and it is particularly important to all the schools in the area. Indeed, many noble Lords have come up to me since yesterday to say that they had visited it themselves. Arts Council England is in active discussion with museums in Yorkshire, Lancashire and Cumbria following the flooding and is considering what support can be provided. This Government have made available more than £200 million to support recovery efforts from the winter storms of 2015-16. Tourism businesses in flood-affected areas that have been directly or indirectly impacted are eligible for the flood recovery grant.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab): My Lords, Cumbria was equally affected, particularly the tourist industry in Cockermouth, Keswick and Kendal. Will Ministers now reopen negotiations with the insurance industry to re-examine Flood Re, which currently excludes commercial premises? Many businesses in the flooded areas are faced with huge bills, and they know that there will be floods in the future, against which they will have no insurance protection.
The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. It is not just Cumbria: Yorkshire, Lancashire and the other counties in that whole area are all suffering from flood damage. I can confirm that Ministers are in discussions with the insurance industry at the moment.
Baroness Afshar (CB): My Lords, I would like to put on record the extraordinary generosity during this dilemma of the citizens of York, who, from day one, provided for everyone as much as they could. York is a point that pulls tourists northwards, away from London’s centre of tourism. Is it not essential at this point not only to applaud and recognise the generosity of the people of York, but to allocate a specific sum to renovate the museum, which cannot be accessed at the moment, in order to extend tourism?
The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right that the Jorvik Viking Centre is of great importance in York. One of the most important things we have been looking at in the five-point plan for tourism is transport, in order to spread tourism away from the centre to the other parts of the United Kingdom. The Rail Safety and Standards Board is running a £1 million competition to boost ideas to get more tourists on to the railways and out and about in the United Kingdom.
Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, does my noble friend accept that, whilst we much appreciate the general sympathy that he is extending on behalf of the Government, here we have a specific and very important tourist attraction which is also reinforced by real scholarship? The height of the tourist season is not all that far away, so can this project please be looked on with real urgency?
The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, a number of activities and institutions in that area have been affected by the flooding, as has been said. The issue is of prime importance, and I can tell my noble friend that the Government are taking this extremely seriously. As I have said, we are urgently having talks with the insurance industry so that things can go forward.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): The noble Earl is good to remind us of the extent of the flooding and the damage that has been done, but we must be very grateful that, due to the heroic efforts of the workers in the Jorvik centre, we are going to retain the ability to see the last remaining Viking sock in the museum premises. However, the question is really about what will happen in the interim, because we are talking about closures of up to a year while the works are being done. What steps will the department take to try to ensure that the artefacts that have been put in storage are available for education and other purposes?
The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, I cannot give exact details on the situation in the Jorvik centre at present. I will write to the noble Lord and place a copy in the Library regarding the exact position, particularly in relation to the Viking sock, which is of course of national importance.
Lord Lee of Trafford (LD): The situation is actually still extremely serious. The noble Lord mentioned Cumbria, and I was told yesterday that forward bookings are 50% down on last year. Can he say whether all efforts are being made to rebuild the infrastructure? Are private contractors being incentivised, or are the military still being used?
The Earl of Courtown: My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right about the importance of the work relating to the flood water and the maintenance of the drainage infrastructure. Some £171 million is being ring-fenced in real terms over the course of this Government to carry out spending on the maintenance of assets such as defences, plants and watercourses in the United Kingdom.
Immigration Bill
Order of Consideration Motion
3.07 pm
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Immigration Bill has been committed that they consider the bill in the following order:
Clauses 1 to 10, Schedule 1, Clause 11, Schedule 2, Clause 12, Schedule 3, Clauses 13 to 19, Schedule 4, Clauses 20 to 28, Schedule 5, Clause 29, Schedule 6, Clauses 30 to 32, Schedule 7, Clauses 33 to 37, Schedule 8, Clause 38, Schedule 9, Clauses 39 to 44, Schedule 10, Clause 45, Schedule 11, Clauses 46 to 59, Schedule 12, Clauses 60 to 65, Title.
Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]
Commons Amendments
3.07 pm
Relevant documents: 1st, 3rd, 4th and 17th Reports from the Delegated Powers Committee
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1 to 18.
1: Clause 1, page 1, line 10, at end insert—
“(ba) functions exercisable by a Minister of the Crown that have been devolved as a result of agreements so as to become exercisable by a mayor for the area of a combined authority (including information as to any such functions that remain exercisable by a Minister of the Crown as a result of an agreement providing for functions to be exercisable jointly or concurrently);”
2: Clause 1, page 1, line 11, after “functions” insert “(so far as not falling within paragraph (ba))”
4: Clause 1, page 1, line 19, at end insert—
“combined authority” means a combined authority established under section 103 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009;
“Minister of the Crown” has the same meaning as in the Ministers of the Crown Act 1975.”
7: Clause 3, page 3, line 8, leave out from “authority,” to end of line 10 and insert “there are one or more non-consenting constituent councils but the combined authority and at least two constituent councils consent.”
10: Clause 5, page 4, line 26, at end insert “, or
(c) so far as authorised by an order made by the Secretary of State—
(i) for a person appointed as the deputy mayor for policing and crime by virtue of an order under paragraph 3(1) of Schedule 2, or
(ii) for a committee of the combined authority, consisting of members appointed by the mayor (whether or not members of the authority), to exercise any such function.
( ) An order under subsection (3)(c)(ii) may include provision—
(a) about the membership of the committee;
(b) about the member of the committee who is to be its chair;
(c) about the appointment of members;
(d) about the voting powers of members (including provision for different weight to be given to the vote of different descriptions of member);
(e) about information held by the combined authority that must, or must not, be disclosed to the committee for purposes connected to the exercise of the committee’s functions;
(f) applying (with or without modifications) sections 15 to 17 of, and Schedule 1 to, the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 (political balance on local authority committees etc).”
“(b) in accordance with arrangements made by virtue of this section or section 107DA.”
12: Clause 5, page 4, line 41, at end insert—
“( ) include provision for general functions to be exercisable by the mayor subject to conditions or limitations specified in the order (including, for example, a condition for general functions to be exercisable only with the consent of the appropriate authorities (as defined by section 107B(6)));”
13: Clause 5, page 5, line 3, at end insert—
“( ) provide that functions that the mayoral combined authority discharges in accordance with arrangements under section 101(1)(b) of the Local Government Act 1972 (discharge of local authority functions by another authority) are to be treated as general functions exercisable by the mayor (so far as authorised by the arrangements).”
14: Clause 5, page 5, line 12, at end insert “, and
( ) in the case of an order made in relation to an existing mayoral combined authority, the mayor of the authority.”
16: Clause 5, page 5, line 16, at end insert—
“107DA Joint exercise of general functions
(1) The Secretary of State may by order make provision for, or in connection with, permitting arrangements under section 101(5) of the Local Government Act 1972 to be entered into in relation to general functions of a mayor for the area of a combined authority.
(2) Provision under subsection (1) may include provision—
(a) for the mayor for the area of a combined authority to be a party to the arrangements in place of, or jointly with, the authority;
(b) about the membership of any joint committee;
(c) about the member of the joint committee who is to be its chair;
(d) about the appointment of members to a joint committee;
(e) about the voting powers of members of a joint committee (including provision for different weight to be given to the vote of different descriptions of member).
(3) Provision under subsection (2)(b) to (d) may include provision for the mayor or other persons—
(a) to determine the number of members;
(b) to have the power to appoint members (whether or not members of the combined authority or a local authority that is a party to the arrangements).
(4) Provision under subsection (2)(c) may include provision as to the circumstances in which appointments to a joint committee need not be made in accordance with sections 15 to 17 of, and Schedule 1 to, the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 (political balance on local authority committees etc).
(5) In this section references to a joint committee are to a joint committee falling within section 101(5)(a) of the Local Government Act 1972 that is authorised to discharge, by virtue of an order under this section, general functions of a mayor for the area of a combined authority.”
17: Clause 5, page 5, line 32, at end insert “, and
( ) in the case of an order made in relation to an existing mayoral combined authority, the mayor of the authority.”
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con): My Lords, in moving en bloc that this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 1 to 18, I will also speak to Commons Amendments 21 to 39, 42 to 44, 62 to 73, 75, 76, 78, 79 and 80 to 82, and speak about the amendments that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, has tabled to Commons Amendment 31 and Commons Amendment 36.
I am very pleased to put forward this group of amendments, which demonstrate the progress that has been made since the Bill was first introduced last May and that the Government have listened to the views made known in this House and in the other place. I do not wish to detain the House too long on this group, as we have a lot to discuss, but I put on record that I am grateful for the continued constructive approach of noble Lords opposite, particularly the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie, Lord Beecham and—I have just spotted him—Lord Smith of Leigh and Lord Shipley. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for the ongoing discussions to refine his clause on health matters, but we shall return to those matters later today.
It is in that spirit that I first speak to Amendments 1, 2 and 4, where the Government are pleased to accept the amendments inserted by this House for an annual report by the Secretary of State on devolution. These further amendments came as a result of listening to the debate in the other place. They will ensure that the Secretary of State’s annual report will include information on the extent to which powers that have been devolved to a mayor also remain exercisable by a Minister of the Crown. It is only right that the Government are transparent when it comes to the devolution of powers to both local and combined authorities and these amendments, which the Government introduced in the other place, do just that.
I shall, of course, listen to noble Lords very carefully when they speak later today, but I cannot help noticing that they have not tabled anything for debate in response to Amendments 3 and 5, which remove Clause 2, inserted in this place against the wishes of the Government. We have removed the requirement that each Bill placed before Parliament be accompanied by a ministerial Statement explaining the extent to which the provisions are compatible with devolution. We are concerned with the reality of devolution. The Bill provides the necessary provisions to achieve genuine devolution of powers to those areas that want it. For many Bills, such a devolution statement would represent superfluous bureaucracy, having no implication for functions that can be devolved, such as national security, defence and international relations. The removal of the clause was not opposed in the other place and we remain of the view that these provisions should not be included in the Bill.
Amendment 6 removes the requirement that a mayor cannot be a precondition of transferring local authority or public authority functions to a combined authority. In our manifesto we specifically committed to,
“devolve far-reaching powers over economic development, transport and social care to large cities which choose to have elected mayors”.
Government policy, therefore, is expressly to make the transfer of local authority or public authority functions to a combined authority dependent on that local authority having a mayor. This is because, if areas are to have these new, far-reaching powers, they must adopt strong governance and accountability arrangements. People need to know who is responsible for decisions affecting their daily lives and who to hold to account.
However, we are not forcing mayors on anyone. Whether an area has a mayor and the far-reaching powers that come with having one is entirely a matter
for local areas. We want to hear from those areas what their proposals are, what powers and budgets they want devolved to them, and what governance arrangements they need to support those powers and budgets. But, if an area wants to have a devolution deal of the scale and ambition of Greater Manchester’s, for those kinds of functions to be devolved, having a directly elected mayor is an essential prerequisite.
This requirement, which Amendment 6 removes, poses major risks to the delivery of the Greater Manchester and Sheffield city region deals. This is because, if the Government tried to make orders using the powers in new Section 107A to deliver these deals, there is a possibility that the courts would find that these deals contravened this statutory prohibition, the effect of which would be likely to result in no further orders being made to transfer additional functions to that area. This is an outcome that I doubt anyone would want. The other place divided twice and decided by majorities of 81 and 95 respectively to remove the requirement. The message from the elected House is clear. For these reasons, I hope noble Lords will agree to this amendment.
Amendments 7, 8, 15, 18, 21, 22, 23, 30 and 82 give more flexibility over how devolution can work for different places. The amendments build on the provisions we approved to further enhance the flexibility for existing combined authorities where one or more of the constituent local authorities do not wish to sign up to certain aspects of devolution.
As it left us, the Bill enabled a local authority to be removed from a combined authority if it does not agree to the combined authority’s wish to adopt the position of mayor. These amendments enable one or more councils that do not want to adopt a mayor or to agree to the first devolution of powers to be removed from the combined authority. This means that councils that do not wish to agree to such aspects of the deal cannot be forced to, but neither can they prevent the combined authority and councils that do agree to the adoption of mayor or the devolved powers proceeding with these.
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Amendments 9, 12, 14, 17, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 42, 43, 44 and 76 simplify and harmonise the Bill’s provisions relating to the local consents needed before powers can be conferred or exercised. As a general rule, the constituent authorities and the combined authority—where there is one—would need to consent before any secondary legislation is made. And where there is one, the mayor would need to consent before any secondary legislation can be made to change the area of a combined authority or specify any functions to be exercisable individually by a mayor.
Amendments 31, 32, 33, 80 and 81 enable combined authorities to be established, and functions conferred, on a more flexible basis. I will also speak to the amendment to Commons Amendment 31 which is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. The Government made these amendments in the other place in response to powerful interventions by the Member for Sheffield South East and the chair of the Communities and Local Government Select Committee.
He and others on the opposition Benches were concerned that some areas were finding it challenging to secure agreement from all councils concerned about the geography over which a combined authority should be established.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is seeking through his amendment to remove this additional flexibility—in effect to require that both district and county councils must consent before any changes to the combined authority or movement of functions can be made. I want to put it beyond any doubt that these amendments do not in themselves change any combined authority in any place. In line with the Bill’s enabling approach, they purely provide additional flexibility in two-tier local government areas so that a district or county council would be able to join an existing combined authority with the agreement of the local authority itself and the combined authority, provided that the remaining statutory requirements are satisfied.
The amendments also make corresponding provision around membership of the combined authorities and enable powers to be conferred with the agreement of the same authorities. So a district council could join a combined authority if the combined authority and the district council consent: the county council’s consent would not be needed. Or a county council could join a combined authority if the combined authority and the county council consent: the consent of the district councils in the two-tier local government area would not be needed. This means that, before laying a draft order to implement such provisions, the Secretary of State would need to be satisfied that making such a change would lead to an improvement of the exercise of the statutory functions and would also have regard to the need to secure effective and convenient local government and reflect effective and convenient local government. There would need to be a consultation on the proposed change to the area and each House of Parliament would, of course, need to approve such an order before it could be made.
I reassure noble Lords that the Government’s aim, as it has been throughout the devolution discussions, is to build consensus, because that is how devolution will last. We will work with local areas to deliver economically sensible areas of devolution with effective governance. When exercising these powers, the Secretary of State has committed to maintain the preference for consensus which he has shown to date. The amendments are intended to provide that no council could unreasonably veto a proposal for an area to join an existing combined authority which the other councils involved and the combined authority agreed. At the very least, no authority can reasonably refuse to discuss with a neighbour the potential for reform. I hope that noble Lords will see the merits in these amendments and agree that they are in line with the enabling approach of the Bill.
I will now move to Amendments 34 to 39, which amend Clause 16 which streamlines the establishment of governance arrangements. In doing so, I hope to speak early to the amendment to Commons Amendment 36 which is in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. The Government accepted Amendment 36, which was a Back-Bench amendment tabled in the other place. It enables the Secretary of State to make regulations to
fast-track the process for structural or boundary change in relation to a two-tier council area without the need for the unanimous consent of the affected councils.
In considering this proposition, the Government further modified it to ensure that this provision would be piloted for a period of no longer than three years, expiring on 31 March 2019. Noble Lords will recall that we discussed the tensions that can result from the complexity of two-tier arrangements and how these might be simplified where there is a lack of consensus about how it might best be achieved. Similar concerns were also expressed in the other place about the potential for a council to effectively veto any proposals that might lead to the fast-tracking of any kind of structural or boundary change, however sensible and supported they might be.
We heard the arguments for and against the proposal and had much sympathy with the underlying proposition that, where there is a sensible structural change to be made which would benefit the wider area, it should not be possible for any one council in an area to effectively veto the consideration of such a proposal. That is why we accepted the amendment, but on the basis that it be piloted for three years. We have deliberately tied the end of the pilot to coincide with the Secretary of State’s fourth devolution report to Parliament.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is seeking to require a consenting local authority to demonstrate that it has made reasonable efforts to achieve local consensus for proposed changes to structural or boundary provision. I hope that the House will agree that the Secretary of State has made it quite clear that the way to proceed is through consensus. Any subsequent draft regulations would have to be approved by both Houses, and, at the same time as laying these, the Secretary of State is also required to lay before Parliament a report explaining the effect of the regulations, including a description of any consultation or information about representations considered by the Secretary of State. This would already enable Parliament to take a view on the extent to which efforts had been made to reach local consensus.
Above all, the crux of the matter is this: areas can already submit unitary proposals to the Secretary of State, with or without the consent of all local authorities, under the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007. The amendment merely allows the Secretary of State to fast-track implementation where there is a strong case to proceed.
Amendments 34 and 35 and Amendments 37 to 39 are largely technical. They clarify the nature and range of matters that the Secretary of State can make regulations about, should he be asked to do so by areas putting any such proposals to him. They do not extend the scope of the provisions first presented to this House.
Amendments 10 and 11 provide additional options for a mayor to be supported in undertaking their mayoral functions. As it left this House, the Bill enabled a mayor to delegate general mayoral functions to the deputy mayor, or to a member or officer of the combined authority. These amendments enable a mayor to delegate functions specified by order to a committee appointed by the mayor, or to the deputy mayor for policing and crime.
Before it could be made, the order would, of course, need local consent, agreement from the Secretary of State and approval from Parliament. Amendments 13, 16 and 75 provide further flexibilities for mayoral combined authorities. They enable, if specified by order, mayors of combined authorities, if they so choose, to exercise any of their general functions jointly with other authorities or combined authorities with the same functions. The orders would specify the arrangements for any such joint committees, such as the establishment, membership, chairmanship, the number and appointment of members, and the voting powers of members.
These amendments also provide that mayoral functions to be exercised jointly must be exercised by a joint committee established by the mayor, and that such committees would be subject to the same requirements for access to meetings and papers as any other local authority committee. They would, for example, enable a joint committee comprising the mayors of two combined authorities, or a combined authority mayor and local authorities, to exercise their functions jointly across the area, providing greater flexibility about how mayors, combined authorities and local authorities can work together. We believe that these amendments provide genuine additional flexibility in the way in which mayors of combined authorities can discharge jointly—that is, where all the councils involved have that function and they see benefit in exercising it jointly over a wider area.
Amendments 62, 63, and 73 are drafting changes that clarify the timing of an order transferring PCC functions to an elected mayor and ensure that, in line with provisions for police and crime commissioners generally, a person acting temporarily in place of a mayor with PCC functions cannot carry out particular strategic functions such as issuing a police and crime plan.
Amendments 64 to 70 and 72 make minor drafting changes so that a deputy mayor appointed in respect of a police and crime commissioner’s function is to be known as the deputy,
“mayor for policing and crime”,
rather than the deputy PCC mayor. This brings the Bill into line with arrangements in London, therefore providing clarity and consistency in the post title of mayoral deputies with police and crime commissioner functions.
Amendment 71 would enable the Secretary of State by order to give a police and crime panel scrutiny functions over the general functions of the mayor where those functions are ones that the mayor has arranged for the deputy mayor for policing and crime to exercise. This is necessary to ensure that scrutiny of these functions and any related functions are exercised by the most appropriate body: namely, the police and crime panel.
Finally, Amendments 78 and 79 enable functions to be discharged jointly, as well as concurrently, with economic prosperity boards.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab): My Lords, I will contain my remarks largely to the amendments of my noble friend Lord Beecham. Regarding some of the amendments that the Minister has mentioned, it is fair to say that we welcome the fact that the Commons has
accepted the points raised here by noble Lords, but we regret that some have not been agreed. I notice that the Minister said that it is up to local areas to agree whether they want to have mayors. That is correct but, standing here now, I think of the situation that Bristol finds itself in. It is uniquely, except for London, unable to decide that it does not want to have a mayor any more. We have discussed that issue before and it is regrettable.
I also find it hard to accept that a Government who talk about devolution and localism should then seek to impose structures, not allowing an authority to decide its own best form of governance. Is that really the right way forward? One of the problems with the Government’s handling of these matters is in not always allowing a local authority to decide the proper mechanism for its area.
My noble friend Lord Beecham has tabled a number of amendments relating to Commons Amendment 31, which was put into the Bill very late in the day during consideration on Report in the other place. It is fair to say that this provision took local government by surprise. Considerable concern has been expressed about the aim to give districts and counties the right to request a governance change without regard to the other authority. It surely must be that seeking agreement by working in collaboration is the best way forward. I note what the Minister said about trying to get consensus but that is why my noble friend Lord Beecham has tabled his amendments. They are about ensuring that we get consensus on these things.
It would be helpful if the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, could explain further how the government amendments came about. I know that she made reference to Mr Clive Betts, and I am conscious that the amendment came from him, but we want to know a bit more about the discussions that took place, including those with local government. Government Amendment 31 leaves too much to chance, which is why my noble friend seeks to ensure a more collaborative process.
The Minister explained the situation but it is fair to say that her explanation, although clear, was quite complicated. If it is complicated for this House, what is it going to be like on the ground? It will be even more complicated. Transport is now delivered by one area and education by another. We then have directly elected mayors and PCCs, with the possibility of the fire and rescue service also being taken over. This seems to me a recipe not for good governance but for confusion and a lack of democratic accountability.
I know the east Midlands very well, as I worked there for about 15 years. Both Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire are very well-run authorities. It has not come from these councils or authorities to have this provision; it has clearly come from a bit further north in Sheffield. I see no desire among local residents there to have different arrangements. As your Lordships will know, both counties have a proud history. Derby and Nottingham left them and are now unitary authorities. They are both large rural areas with large towns. They have a proud mining history but are also a centre for new start-up businesses and for more established businesses such as—
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Lord Scriven (LD): Will the noble Lord give way? I am a former leader of Sheffield City Council and a resident of the city. Has the noble Lord spoken to the leaders of Chesterfield and Bassetlaw councils, where people may have a different view to the one he has just expressed?
Lord Kennedy of Southwark: I have not spoken to the leaders of Chesterfield or Bassetlaw councils but I have spoken to the leaders of Derbyshire County Council and Nottinghamshire County Council. It is an area I know quite well, but I accept we are not going to agree on all our points.
This is also an area of considerable natural beauty with a thriving tourism industry. I would be grateful if the noble Baroness could talk about the devolution deal for Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire. Discussions are taking place with those councils, but there are concerns. They are worried that any deal there will be potentially undermined by having further discussions about other councils leaving that area. This is not a good way of going forward.
Lord Shipley (LD): My Lords, there are advantages and disadvantages when this House considers a Bill in advance of the House of Commons. The advantages are that we can take an early view of proposals and make suggestions for the other place to consider. Among the disadvantages is that we can be asked to consider a very large number of amendments from the Government at a very late stage. This afternoon, we have 87 government amendments, of which 59 are in this group alone. This adds to the complexity and means that we have to be very careful in agreeing to amendments, as we have not had fuller consideration of them in Committee.
That said, in many cases, the amendments proposed by the Government improve the Bill. They clarify and enable, and they promote localism. We will shortly, I hope, have a further discussion about Amendments 31A and 36A, but the Minister has moved that we agree with Amendments 1 to 18 at this stage, and I want to say one or two things about the overall content and context of the amendments under discussion. The promotion of localism has to be a partnership if it is to be successful, which I think is what the Minister has said. For that reason, the additional powers now being proposed for the Secretary of State need to be used very sparingly, and I hope we will hear from the Minister further confirmation as the afternoon progresses that this is indeed the Government’s intention. In that context, Amendments 31, 31A, 36 and 36A are extremely important, and I support the amendments which will be moved later this afternoon by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham.
We have also received the advice of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which published its comments on 22 December. That committee rightly pointed out that when we considered the Bill in the summer, the Government gave assurances that the powers of the Secretary of State over brokering bespoke deals would be constrained by the need for all councils in a given area to consent. That requirement no longer has to apply, at least until March 2019.
On these Benches we have always been strong advocates of localism and the further devolution of powers to local authorities or combinations of them. But partnership and consent matter if devolution is to work. For that reason, I hope that we will hear assurances from the Minister that the powers will be used very sparingly, that they will only be used in circumstances that promote effective localism and that the procedural guarantees sought by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, will be followed so that local authorities are encouraged to work collaboratively together.
I have two further points. The Minister referred to the fact that there will be an annual report. I am very pleased about that in the context of all our debates in Committee and on Report. Although not all of the amendments proposed by your Lordships’ House were agreed in the other place, the annual report will give a focus for clarifying and sharing what has happened, what good practice has been promoted and which pilots have proved successful. It is very important that that does not stay in Whitehall with Ministers but is shared with the whole country. I hope that the Minister will be able to confirm that not only will that annual report be issued but this House will have the opportunity to debate it.
The second issue I want to draw attention to from the Minister’s opening speech is her use of the words strong governance. She said that an elected mayor model is a model for strong governance, so that the public know where responsibilities lie. I have expressed doubts about the single-leader model and the ability of a single person to do so many things—perhaps, to be the police and crime commissioner or to take on responsibility through the combined authority structure for fire and rescue. If NHS matters or responsibility for children’s services are to be devolved to a combined authority level, it seems difficult for one person to do so very much and remain democratically accountable. I can hear the Minister’s reply, which will be that those matters will then be devolved to other leaders within the combined authority. We have had these debates before in the summer. Of course, we do not have elected mayors yet in most places and will not for the next two or three years, but it will be very important to review how they are performing as part of the annual report.
I have two concerns about this in a democratic sense. One is that councillors of constituent authorities will know less and less about what is actually happening in their areas because more and more decisions will effectively be centralised. Secondly, the general public may not understand who will be responsible for a decision and where it should be challenged if they do not agree with it. Reviewing that constantly seems very important.
That is all I want to say at this stage. I may say a bit more when the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, moves his amendments to Amendments 31 and 36 but, for the moment, I think that there is a different mood in England now about devolution. There are problems and, in some places, occasional conflicts, but, in the main, there is a willingness to accept devolved powers from Whitehall and Westminster—indeed, a very strong desire to do so. The moves of the previous Government and this one have demonstrated that the appetite is there for those devolved powers to be granted.
Lord Beecham (Lab): My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt, I should say that, although I am speaking from the Back Benches, I have not resigned from the Front Bench, nor have I yet been removed from it.
I am grateful to the Minister for the meeting she held yesterday to explain the 50 or so amendments in this group—almost constituting a Bill in themselves. In addition to the points made by my noble friend Lord Kennedy, I would be grateful if she explained in more detail the effect of Amendment 34 on electoral arrangements. What would be covered by the order-making power? Would it extend to ward boundary changes, council size or the electoral cycle? Will the function be carried out by the Secretary of State or the Electoral Commission? If there is to be secondary legislation, will it be by affirmative resolution?
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has already referred to the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. In a spirit of consensus, no doubt, he did not quite quote the committee’s rather stringent comments about the way the Government have proceeded. Paragraph 2 of the report states:
“Amendment 36 is one of a number of amendments to clause 16 of the Bill. Clause 16 confers a power on the Secretary of State by regulations to make changes to the governance arrangements, constitution and membership, and the structural and boundary arrangements”.
Having considered the Government’s response, the committee concluded:
“We remain of the view that the powers conferred by clause 16 are inappropriate in the absence of the kinds of constraints and protections which apply to combined authorities under Part 6 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009. Amendment 36, which will have the effect of weakening the consent regime under clause 16, serves only to strengthen our view in this regard”.
The report was published on 22 December. We are now half way through January and the Government have not yet responded except, by implication, to reject it by ignoring it. Perhaps the Minister will give some explanation of the Government’s position on the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report.
More generally, it is necessary to ask whether the Government have thought through the implications of the impact of some of the changes the amendments in this group and the other groups may have on the existing local government structure if, for example, district councils in two-tier areas join combined authorities, as is apparently envisaged in the case of some districts in Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire. They may join for the purposes of participating in infrastructure schemes or economic development while remaining within their county councils for other services, for example, education or social care. What if the combined authority then seeks to take responsibility for the NHS? This is happening in Greater Manchester. My noble friend Lord Smith will no doubt enlighten us on the progress that is being made there, which will be watched with interest, not to say fascination, by others in local government.
What happens in areas where district councils depart from their county for some purposes but not for others? Would public health and child and adult services have to be transferred to the combined authority, given that Amendments 21 and 22 refer only to the consent of members of the combined authority? If so, what impact might that have on the services in what is
left of the county council? This is one of the effects of Amendment 45, which revokes the requirement for a local authority to consent to regulations revoking a transfer of functions where the revocation relates to health service functions. If not, what is the purpose of Amendment 45? Further, what, if any, are the implications for police and fire services, on which the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, briefly touched?
Moreover, given that the revenue support grant is to disappear and the entirety of business rates will henceforth accrue to local authorities, have the Government thought through the implications for areas in which districts might opt to join the neighbouring combined authority for some purposes—for example, economic development—but not others? Where would the business rates generated in those districts go? If they go in whole or in part to the district or the combined authority, is there not a risk that services to other parts of the existing county, which would have benefited from business rates in that area, will suffer a potential risk because they may not have a proportionate business rate income, actual or potential, in the rest of the county and may suffer as a result? Are these the sort of matters the Secretary of State will consider under Amendments 23 and 42? If so, what criteria are envisaged to apply?
The amendments in my name have effectively been more than adequately covered by my noble friend Lord Kennedy. The need for a consensual approach, which I think is right, was acknowledged by Ministers in what was almost a last-minute debate on the Bill in the House of Commons. However, the amendments seek only to strengthen the process under which conclusion might be reached; they do not postulate a particular outcome but emphasise the importance of seeking consensus, particularly among the communities that would be affected, not only within those districts that might seek to join in a combined authority but in the residual area of the county that may be affected by that decision.
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There are people in local government, and I am one of them, who might be accused of being paranoid about this Government’s attitude to local government, but that is because it is very difficult to avoid the conclusion after the past five and a half years that they are out to get us in so many ways. It must be asked: are these measures the first step towards a further wholesale reorganisation of local government, beginning but not necessarily ending with the disappearance of two-tier local government in the counties? Will the Government disavow any such intention and any aspirations to replace existing unitary councils by transferring their functions to an elected mayor and a single elected combined authority? I dare say that my noble friend Lady Hollis may have some views on that point, which she has made before forcefully and with her customary eloquence.
Is there any question of merging or reorganising what may be truncated counties shorn of significant population? If, to take a couple of counties at random, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire were to find that a significant number of district councils had elected to join a combined authority—if that had been agreed by whatever process, including consensus—and they were left shorn of a substantial income base and a substantial population, would the temptation not then arise for the
Government to suggest that the residual parts of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire should be combined into a new authority? That would be a massive and radical change.
The concept of devolution is welcome but, as has previously been made clear by noble Lords in discussing the Bill, and indeed today by my noble friend Lord Kennedy and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, there is real concern about these and other aspects, not least the Government’s adoption of what might be called the Henry Ford approach—insisting upon having an elected mayor as a condition of the devolution deal. In this case, it is not a question of having any colour car as long as it is black; rather, you can have devolution as long as you have an elected mayor. However, there remains a major question as to whether the Government’s new model structures would be supplied with sufficient petrol in their fuel tanks.
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I shall start with the question from the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, about two-tier authorities and what sorts of discussions we have been involved with. On a personal level, I have spoken to councils up and down the country. While I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, that there is not consensus across the country, there is certainly the feeling that in some areas districts might feel vetoed by counties and vice versa, so this provision will enable either districts or counties to move in the way that they would wish. Consensus is of course the thing that we are seeking, but we also do not want authorities to be able to veto others in the aims that they seek to achieve.
The noble Lord asked me about transport across combined authority areas. We shall get on to transport in later groups, but of course Transport for the North, which will cover a vast area, will deal with just that issue, because of course transport does not start at one local authority boundary and finish at the other end of it; it transcends areas and is ideally placed to be dealt with on that much broader scale.
To go back to the first point, I understand that officials have held discussions with the County Councils Network and with the authorities involved—I am going beyond what I have been doing. Extensive discussions have taken place across the country.
The noble Lord also talked about the Bristol issue. Noble Lords will recall that an amendment was moved in this place, which the other place accepted, which put the Bristol mayor in the same position as mayors of other authorities, so that the local electorate can petition for a referendum to be held on whether mayoral governance in Bristol should continue and such a referendum is able to be held after the 10-year moratorium period—therefore from 2022. The other place accepted this as Clause 21 as the Bill left the other place.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, talked about powers being used very circumspectly. As the Secretary of State made clear in the other place, when he exercises those powers which the amendments made in the other place have given him, he will maintain the preference for consensus which he has shown to date, and the Government’s aim is to build on that consensus.
The noble Lord also talked about the large number of amendments which have come back to this House, and I agree with him that there are a large number. However, he also talked about the sensibleness of most of those amendments and about the need to work in partnership. He is absolutely right that devolution will not be effective in the long term unless partnership is effective. That is why the word “consensus” has been mentioned so much in today’s debate, because unless those local authorities can work together, they will not succeed in their aims for growth and other things.
The noble Lord also asked for further assurances that the powers will be used sparingly and that the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, would be reflected in the annual report. I hope that in my initial speech I gave those assurances, and I will give them again. Of course what will go into the report will be a matter for Bill managers, but I hope that I have made my feelings clear on that.
Both the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Beecham, talked about the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. I wrote yesterday—and I accept some criticism for the lateness of that letter—about Amendment 36, that,
“the context for these regulations making provision about local authority structures will be the implementation of devolution deals, specifically fast tracking the processes of such legislation as the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007. I also commented”—
“as you rightly refer, to the need for consent by all councils being sufficient safeguard that fast tracking will not remove inappropriately any essential constraint or protection. Notwithstanding this, we subsequently introduced a further safeguard by requiring that the use of this regulation power must be accompanied by the transparency given by a specific report to Parliament setting out the context (i.e. describing the bespoke deal) and providing information about any consultations or representations in connection with the regulations”.
Lord Tyler (LD): My Lords, I serve on the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The Minister will recall that this is not the first time she has been put in an impossible situation. With great respect to her, in the light of the very serious concerns and anxieties expressed by that committee about this section of the Bill and the powers given to the Minister under the Bill, it is not good enough for her to be provided with that text to read to the House at this stage without us being given an opportunity to see its significance. We in the committee took great care, with very good advice, over how these powers were going to be exercised. The department has put the Minister in an impossible situation. It had all last week—I assume that those in the department were working—to get this information to the House, and your Lordships should be given the opportunity to see these things in print rather than having to rely on the Minister. She has been put in this position twice. She should have the best possible advice and support, and she should go back to the department and say “Not good enough”.
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I can but apologise for the fact that the letter has arrived late and I hope noble Lords will accept that apology from me. However, I accept the noble Lord’s point.
Amendment 45, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, enables the Secretary of State to revoke orders conferring health functions on a combined authority. I hope the noble Lord will be slightly patient—perhaps we can come to that in a later grouping when my noble friend Lord Prior will be talking about health.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, also asked me, I think, what happens to business rates if a district joins a combined authority without a county. There is no direct relationship between the membership of the combined authority and the business rates, which will be subject to further legislation. I hope that that helps the noble Lord.
Lord Beecham: It depends on the legislation, although I do not envisage that the noble Baroness will be in quite the same position in that context as she has been over the point that she has just made. Can she indicate what time period we are looking at and what consultation will take place over that issue, and with whom?
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I expect a very quick timescale, given that some devolution deals have already been done. Time would be of the essence in getting these matters through, so I would expect the consultation process and the regulations to be dealt with fairly quickly. That is imperative, given that devolution deals have been done with different places. I hope that that is good enough for him.
The noble Lord also asked me about Amendment 34. The regulations will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure and the amendment makes clear exactly what procedures can be fast-tracked. These include changes to electoral arrangements but the Boundary Commission’s responsibilities remain unchanged. I think we went through that yesterday but I am very happy to confirm that, as it is a very important point.
The noble Lord also asked me whether the Government are trying to reorganise local government. The answer is no. We are here to assist where local government wants to reorganise itself in terms of unitarisation. He also asked whether we are taking a Henry Ford approach. I hope that Cornwall shows that we are not. It will be up to local authorities to come forward with their proposals for their areas in due course.
I have been passed a note which says that—if I can read the writing—regarding business rates, “future legislation” means primary legislation, which we will bring forward as parliamentary time allows. I hope that I have satisfied noble Lords in all the questions that they have raised.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark: Perhaps the noble Baroness could say a bit more. Regarding my noble friend’s Amendment 31C, I agree that we should move forward on a basis of consensus. I also agree that no council should have a veto. I accept that entirely, as it would just stop things happening. However, that is why my noble friend’s amendment says that either council may make a referral to the Secretary of State. His intention is to avoid that happening; equally, his intention is to get consensus where we can. Can she say why she will not accept that amendment?
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, we are trying to find the fine line here between consensus and councils not being able to veto the wider wish. I hope that that, in my own words, explains why we do not want to accept that amendment.
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That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 19 and 20.
20: Clause 8, page 9, line 15, at end insert—
“(5A) Subsection (5B) applies where an order under subsection (1) contains a reference to a document specified or described in the order (for example, in imposing a condition by virtue of subsection (2)(a) for an authority to have regard to, or to comply with, a statement of policy or standards set out in the document).
(5B) If it appears to the Secretary of State necessary or expedient for the reference to the document to be construed—
(a) as a reference to that document as amended from time to time, or
(b) as including a reference to a subsequent document that replaces that document, the order may make express provision to that effect.
(5C) See also section 19 of the Cities and Local Government Devolution Act 2015 (devolving health service functions) which contains further limitations.”
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in its minor and technical Amendments 19, 20, 40 41, 55 to 61, 83 and 84. Amendments 19 and 40 ensure that the reference to “document” in regulations is construed as referring to that document as it may subsequently be amended from time to time or replaced.
Amendments 20 and 41 ensure that it is possible to transfer along with a function the criminal liabilities associated with that function.
Amendment 55 makes it clear that, in addition to the ability to make any changes to legislation that may be needed in consequence of any of the provisions in this Bill, the Secretary of State also has the power to make regulations which make necessary changes following the making of secondary legislation made under the powers in the Bill.
Amendments 56 to 61, 83 and 84 provide that where the Secretary of State has powers in relation to certain electoral matters, those powers may also be exercised concurrently with the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. These amendments ensure consistency with similar powers to make secondary legislation regarding the conduct of elections in the Local Government Act 2000.
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 21 to 30.
21: Clause 8, page 9, line 35, leave out from beginning to “and” in line 36 and insert “the appropriate consent is given”
22: Clause 8, page 9, line 38, at end insert—
“(1A) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b), the appropriate consent is given to the making of an order under section 105A only if—
(a) in the case of an order in relation to an existing combined authority, each appropriate authority consents;
(b) in any other case, each constituent council consents.
Paragraph (a) is subject to subsections (1B) and (1C).
(1B) Subsection (1C) applies where—
(a) an order under section 105A in relation to an existing combined authority is the first such order to be made in relation to that authority,
(b) the authority is not a mayoral combined authority, and
(c) there are one or more constituent councils who do not consent to the making of the order.
(1C) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b), the appropriate consent is given to the making of the order if the combined authority and at least two constituent councils consent to the making of the order.
(1D) Where an order under section 105A is made by virtue of subsection (1C) of this section, the Secretary of State must make an order under section 106 to remove the area of each non-consenting constituent council from the existing area of the combined authority.
(1E) The requirement in subsection (1)(b) for the appropriate consent to be given to the making of an order under section 105A does not apply where—
(a) the order revokes (in whole or in part), or otherwise amends, a previous order under that section, and
(b) the only purpose of the order is to provide for a health service function of a combined authority to cease to be exercisable by the authority.
(1F) In subsection (1E)(b), “health service function of a combined authority” means a function which—
(a) relates to the health service, as defined by section 275(1) of the National Health Service Act 2006, and
(b) is exercisable by the combined authority by virtue of an order under section 105A.
(1G) The requirement in subsection (1)(b) for the appropriate consent to be given is subject to section 106A.”
23: Clause 8, page 10, line 12, at end insert—
“and a “constituent council” is a council within paragraph (a) or (b).”
24: Clause 10, page 10, line 30, leave out “so far as the constituent councils consent,” and insert “subject to subsection (10A),”
25: Clause 10, page 10, line 32, at end insert—
“(10A) Regulations under this section by virtue of subsection (8) that include provision within subsection (10)(b) may be made only with the consent of—
(a) the constituent councils, and
(b) in the case of regulations in relation to an existing combined authority, the combined authority.
(10B) Subsection (10A) is subject to section 106A of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009 (which enables regulations to be made without the consent of all the constituent councils in certain circumstances).”
27: Clause 10, page 11, line 14, at end insert “, and
( ) in the case of regulations in relation to an existing combined authority, the combined authority.”
28: Clause 10, page 11, line 14, at end insert—
“(6A) Subsection (6) is subject to section 106A of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009 (which enables regulations to be made without the consent of every authority within paragraph (a) and (b) of that subsection in certain circumstances).”
29: Clause 10, page 11, line 26, at end insert—
“( ) In section 105 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009 (constitution and functions of combined authorities: economic development and regeneration), omit subsection (4).”
Motion on Amendments 21 to 30 agreed.
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 31.
31: Clause 15, page 14, line 33, at end insert—
“( ) In section 104 (constitution and functions of combined authorities: transport), after subsection (9) (inserted by section 9(1) above) insert—
“(10) An order under this section may be made in relation to a combined authority only with the consent of—
(a) the constituent councils, and
(b) in the case of an order in relation to an existing combined authority, the combined authority.
(11) In subsection (10) “constituent council” means—
(a) a county council the whole or any part of whose area is within the area or proposed area of the combined authority,
(b) a district council whose area is within the area or proposed area of the combined authority.
(12) Subsection (10) is subject to section 106A.”
( ) In section 105 (constitution and functions of combined authorities: economic development and regeneration), after subsection (3) insert—
“(3A) An order under this section may be made in relation to a combined authority only with the consent of—
(a) the constituent councils (as defined by section 104(11)), and
(b) in the case of an order in relation to an existing combined authority, the combined authority.
(3B) Subsection (3A) is subject to section 106A.”
( ) In section 106 (changes to boundaries of a combined authority’s area)—
(a) in subsection (2), omit paragraph (b);
(c) after subsection (3) insert—
“(3A) An order under this section adding or removing a local government area to or from an existing area of a combined authority may be made only if—
(a) the relevant council in relation to the local government area consents,
(b) the combined authority consents, and
(c) the mayor for the area of the combined authority (if it is a mayoral combined authority) also consents.
(3B) For the purposes of subsection (3A)(a), the “relevant council” in relation to a local government area is—
(a) if the local government area is the area of a county council, the county council;
(b) if the local government area is the area of a district council whose area does not form part of the area of a county council, the district council;
(c) if the local government area is the area of a district council whose area forms part of the area of a county council, the district council or the county council.
(3C) If there are two relevant councils in relation to a local government area by virtue of subsection (3B)(c), the condition in subsection (3A)(a) for the relevant council to consent is met if—
(a) in the case of an order under subsection (1)(a), either or both of the relevant councils consent;
(b) in the case of an order under subsection (1)(b), both of the relevant councils consent.
(3D) Subsections (2) and (3A) do not apply to an order under subsection (1)(b) that is made as a result of the duty in section 105B(1D) or 107B(4).”
“106A Section 106(1)(a) orders: consent requirements under other powers
(1) Subsection (2) applies where—
(a) the area of a district council is added to the area of a combined authority by an order under section 106(1)(a),
(b) the area of the district council forms part of the area of a county council,
(c) the Secretary of State proposes to exercise a relevant power as a result of, or otherwise in connection with, the making of the order, and
(d) (apart from subsection (2)) the relevant power is exercisable only with the consent of (among other authorities) the county council mentioned in paragraph (b).
(2) The relevant power is exercisable whether or not the county council consents.
(3) Subsection (4) applies where—
(a) the area of a county council is added to the area of a combined authority by an order under section 106(1)(a),
(b) the area of the county council includes the areas of district councils,
(c) the Secretary of State proposes to exercise a relevant power as a result of, or otherwise in connection with, the making of the order, and
(d) (apart from subsection (4)) the relevant power is exercisable only with the consent of (among other authorities) a district council within paragraph (b).
(4) The relevant power is exercisable whether or not the district council consents.
(5) In this section, “relevant power” means a power—
(a) to make an order under section 104, 105 or 105A, or
(b) to make regulations under—
(i) section 74 of the Local Government Finance Act 1988 (by virtue of subsection (8) of that section), or
(ii) section 23(5) of the Local Government Act 2003.””
Amendments 31A to 31C, as amendments to Amendment 31, not moved.
Motion on Amendment 31 agreed.
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 32 to 35.
34: Clause 16, page 16, line 4, leave out from “arrangements” to end of line 6 and insert “, or electoral arrangements, in relation to local authorities under Part 1 of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 or under Part 3 of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009.”
35: Clause 16, page 16, line 9, at end insert—
“( ) Regulations under this section may in particular make provision—
(a) about how the enactments mentioned in subsection (1) or (2) are to apply in relation to particular cases (including by disapplying the application of any such enactment to a particular case or applying it subject to any variations that are specified in the regulations);
(b) about any of the matters listed in section 11(3) or (4) of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 (including provision in relation to such matters of a kind mentioned in section 12 of that Act).
Nothing in paragraph (a) limits the power to make provision under subsection (4)(c).”
Motion on Amendments 32 to 35 agreed.
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 36.
36: Clause 16, page 16, line 11, at end insert—
“(3A) Regulations under this section, so far as including structural or boundary provision in relation to a non-unitary district council area, may be made if at least one relevant local authority consents.
(3B) Local authority in this case is defined as—
(a) a non-unitary district council whose area is, or forms part of, the non-unitary district council area;
(b) a county council whose area includes the whole or part of the nonunitary district council area.
(3C) Relating to subsections (3A) and (3B)—
“non-unitary district council area” means the area or areas of one or more non-unitary district councils;
“non-unitary district council” means a district council for an area for which there is also a county council;
“structural or boundary provision” means provision about the structural or boundary arrangements of local authorities in regulations made by virtue of subsection (1)(c).
(3D) Subsections (3A) to (3C) expire at the end of 31st March 2019 (but without affecting any regulations already made under this section by virtue of subsection (3A)).”
Amendment 36A, as an amendment to Amendment 36, not moved.
Motion on Amendment 36 agreed.
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 37 to 44.
37: Clause 16, page 16, line 13, at end insert—
“( ) includes power to make different provision for different purposes;”
39: Clause 16, page 16, line 17, at end insert—
“( ) Section 15 of the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007 (power to transfer of functions, property etc as part of incidental etc provision) applies in relation to subsection (4)(b) above as it applies in relation to sections 13 and 14 of that Act.”
41: Clause 17, page 17, line 32, at end insert—
“(5A) Subsection (5B) applies where regulations under subsection (1) contain a reference to a document specified or described in the regulations (for example, in imposing a condition by virtue of subsection (2)(a) for an authority to have regard to, or to comply with, a statement of policy or standards set out in the document).
(5B) If it appears to the Secretary of State necessary or expedient for the reference to the document to be construed—
(a) as a reference to that document as amended from time to time, or
(b) as including a reference to a subsequent document that replaces that document, the regulations may make express provision to that effect.
(5C) See also section 19 (devolving health service functions) which contains further limitations.”
42: Clause 18, page 17, line 48, after “authority” insert “by whom a function becomes exercisable by virtue of the regulations”
Motion on Amendments 37 to 44 agreed.
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 45 to 51.
45: Clause 18, page 18, line 9, at end insert—
“(2A) The requirement in subsection (1)(a) for the relevant local authority to consent to the making of regulations under section 17 does not apply where—
(a) the regulations revoke (in whole or in part), or otherwise amend, previous regulations under that section, and
(b) the only purpose of the regulations is to provide for a health service function of the relevant local authority to cease to be exercisable by the authority (which may include provision under subsection (2)(b) in relation to that purpose).
(2B) In subsection (2A)(b), “health service function of a relevant local authority” means a function which—
(a) relates to the health service, as defined by section 275(1) of the National Health Service Act 2006, and
(b) is exercisable by the authority by virtue of regulations under section 17.”
46: Clause 19, page 18, leave out lines 29 to 33 and insert—
“(1) Regulations under section 17 of this Act or an order under section 105A of the Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction Act 2009 (transfer of public authority functions to combined authorities) (“the 2009 Act”)—
(a) must not transfer any of the Secretary of State’s core duties in relation to the health service;”
48: Clause 19, page 18, line 36, leave out from “must” to first “the” in line 37 and insert “, if transferring functions relating to the health service to a local authority or a combined authority, make provision about the standards and duties to be placed on that authority having regard to”
49: Clause 19, page 18, line 38, leave out from “on” to “being” in line 39 and insert “the authority responsible for the functions”
50: Clause 19, page 18, line 40, at end insert—
“(2) For the purposes of subsection (1)(a), “the Secretary of State’s core duties in relation to the health service” means the duties of the Secretary of State under—
(a) sections 1 to 1G of the National Health Service Act 2006 (“the NHSA 2006”) (duty to promote comprehensive health service etc.),
(b) sections 6A to 6BB of that Act (duties regarding the reimbursement of costs of services provided in another EEA state),
(c) section 12E of that Act (duty as respects variation in provision of health services),
(d) sections 13A, 13B, 13U and 223B of that Act (duties regarding mandate to, and annual report and funding of, the NHS Commissioning Board),
(e) section 247C of that Act (duty to keep health service functions under review),
(f) section 247D of that Act (duty to publish annual report on performance of the health service in England),
(g) section 258 of that Act (duty regarding the availability of facilities for university clinical teaching and research), and
(h) sections 3 to 6 of the Health Act 2009 (duties in relation to the NHS Constitution and the Handbook to it), in so far as those duties would (apart from subsection (1)(a)) be transferable by regulations under section 17 or an order under section 105A of the 2009 Act.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (1)(b)—
(a) “health service regulatory function” means a function in relation to the health service which is a regulatory function within the meaning given by section 32 of the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006,
(b) the functions of the National Health Service Commissioning Board under Chapter A2 of Part 2 of the NHSA 2006 (clinical commissioning groups) are to be treated as “health service regulatory functions” in so far as they do not fall within the definition in paragraph (a), and
(c) functions exercisable by a body by virtue of directions given under section 7 of the NHSA 2006 (functions of Special Health Authorities) are not “vested in” that body.
(4) But subsection (1)(b) does not prevent the transfer of functions of the National Health Service Commissioning Board which—
(a) arise from arrangements under section 1H(3)(a) of the NHSA 2006 (provision of services for the purpose of the health service), and
(b) relate to those providing services under those arrangements.
(5) For the purposes of subsection (1)(c), “national service standards” means the standards contained in any of the following—
(a) the NHS Constitution (within the meaning of Chapter 1 of Part 1 of the Health Act 2009);
(b) the standing rules under section 6E of the NHSA 2006 (regulations as to the exercise of functions by the NHS Commissioning Board or clinical commissioning groups);
(c) the terms as to service delivery required by regulations or directions under the NHSA 2006 for contracts or other arrangements for the provision of primary medical services, primary dental services, primary ophthalmic services or pharmaceutical services under Part 4, 5, 6 or 7 of that Act;
(d) the recommendations or guidance of the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence made or given pursuant to regulations under section 237 of Health and Social Care Act 2012;
(e) the quality standards prepared by that Institute under section 234 of that Act;
(f) the guidance published under section 14Z8 of the NHSA 2006 (guidance on commissioning by the NHS Commissioning Board); and such standards are “placed on” a body if the body is required to have regard to or comply with them.
(6) For the purposes of subsection (1)(c)—
(a) “national information obligations” means duties regarding the obtaining, retention, use or disclosure of information, and
(b) “national accountability obligations” means duties (for example, those to keep accounts or records, or to provide or publish reports, plans or other information) which enable the management of a body, or the way in which functions are discharged, to be examined, inspected, reviewed or studied.
(7) For the purposes of this section, a function is transferred by regulations under section 17 or by an order under section 105A of the 2009 Act, if—
(a) provision is made under subsection (1)(a) of the section in question for the function to be the function of a local authority or a combined authority, or
(b) provision is made under subsection (1)(b) of that section for a function corresponding to the function to be conferred on a local authority or a combined authority.
(8) Nothing in this section prevents the conferral on a local authority or a combined authority of duties to have regard to, or to promote or secure, the matters mentioned in sections 1 to 1F of the NHSA 2006 when exercising a function transferred to it by regulations under section 17, or by an order under section 105A of the 2009 Act.
(9) In this section, “the health service” has the meaning given by section 275(1) of the NHSA 2006.”
51: After Clause 19, insert the following new Clause—
“Amendments of the National Health Service Act 2006 Schedule (Amendments of the National Health Service Act 2006) contains amendments of the National Health Service Act 2006 in connection with the exercise of health service functions of combined or local authorities and the control of information about local authority social care.”
Lord Prior of Brampton (Con): My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree the Motion on Commons Amendments 45 to 51. I shall speak also to other amendments in the group, including the clause inserted in the Bill following Clause 19 by Amendments 51 and 74.
Your Lordships will remember our debates on the issue of safeguards for the devolution of NHS functions, culminating in the insertion of the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Warner, at Third Reading, against the Government’s wishes. We have now accepted this amendment and have worked to provide even further assurances. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for his ongoing co-operation and for his support for the further amendments as introduced in Committee in the other place. These amendments provide further clarity about the role of the Secretary of State for Health and what may and may not be included in any future transfer order giving local organisations devolved responsibility for health services.
The clause as amended also includes clear provision to exclude from the scope of transfers the oversight role of NHS England in relation to CCGs, and makes it clear that local devolution settlements do not change the responsibilities of our NHS regulators or their functions in protecting the interests and safety of patients.
The provision of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, as amended, protects the integrity of the National Health Service and makes it clear that, whatever devolution arrangements might be agreed with a particular area, the Secretary of State’s core duties in relation to the health service will not be altered. These clear statements in legislation, making provision for the protection of the integrity of the National Health Service, are intended to provide further confidence in future devolution deals. The amendments to the clause give further definition and clarity to support the valuable principles behind the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and I commend them to the House.
Places such as Greater Manchester and London are calling for the ability to design and deliver better health and care services and the ability to make decisions at a level that works best for their communities, either locally or, where it makes more sense, at a regional or sub-regional level.
As we know, devolution deals must be tailored to the particular needs and circumstances of a local area. The Bill already allows government to devolve a range of powers and functions currently carried out by Whitehall departments or bodies such as NHS England to a combined authority or a local authority. In seeking
to introduce Schedule 3A, which amends the NHS Act 2006, we are now taking the opportunity to make available further options in health legislation for combined authorities and local authorities to work together with clinical commissioning groups and NHS England across a wider area, such as Greater Manchester, to improve integration of services.
Crucially, wherever a responsibility for NHS functions is delegated or shared in this way, accountability would remain with the original function holder, whether that is NHS England or a clinical commissioning group. The original function holder would continue to be accountable via the existing mechanisms for oversight which ultimately go up to the Secretary of State. In respect of the arrangements which may be made for the exercise of the Secretary of State’s public health functions, each partner is liable for its own actions and, as with the rest of the health service—both public health and NHS elements—the Secretary of State remains accountable to Parliament.
We are seeking to introduce Amendment 45 to provide that the requirements for local authority consent do not apply to regulations revoking previous transfers of health service functions. Noble Lords will be aware also that Amendment 22, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has spoken, includes a similar provision whereby consent from a combined authority and local authorities is not needed where an order solely revokes a transfer of public authority health functions.
These amendments mean that, in the event that it becomes appropriate to restore NHS functions in a local area to NHS bodies, this can be achieved without the need for the consent of the combined authority and local authorities concerned. This reflects the fundamental principle for health devolution in Clause 19—that the Secretary of State for Health’s key responsibilities for the NHS will remain unchanged in any devolution arrangements. We would envisage using the powers to revoke only in circumstances where it was clear that duties and standards such as those referenced in Clause 19 were not being met, and that revoking the transfer was the best option to achieve the necessary improvement in performance. I beg to move.
Lord Warner (Non-Afl): My Lords, I shall speak in a friendly way towards the Minister on his amendments to the amendment that the House was good enough to pass at Third Reading. I cannot guarantee to be quite as friendly towards the Minister on all matters relating to the NHS and social care in future. I suspect that we shall have a good counter around that course on Thursday.
What it shows is that this House has an important scrutiny function to perform. I know that we gave the Minister a pretty hard time on this issue, but the Government rather deserved it. I think that it was very foolish for the Government to bring the Bill to this House with the devolution of NHS functions in it without clarity about how that would work in relation to existing NHS legislation, particularly the 2006 and 2012 Acts. I am glad that the Government have seen the error of their ways and I am extremely grateful to the Minister and his colleague, Alistair Burt, for the considerate way in which they discussed with me this set of amendments.
I am happy to commend them to the House because they meet the concerns that were expressed at an earlier stage, and I accept the points made by the Minister about the need, very occasionally, to revoke some of these changes. I do not accept the advice from the BMA in its guidance that there should be more safeguards. Given the nature of NHS legislation in this country, it is inevitable that where the Secretary of State sees real damage being done in a local area, he has to step in and make some changes. It is almost inevitable that on the odd occasion that will be necessary, so I am quite happy to support the change proposed by the Minister.
This shows the House in a good state in its ability to exercise its scrutiny functions—and, at the time of the Strathclyde report, it does us well to pat ourselves a little bit on the back that we have actually helped the Government improve their legislation.
Lord Beecham: My Lords, Warner Brothers established a remarkable reputation in the field of entertainment. It would be churlish if the noble Lord, who perhaps no longer counts himself as a brother to some of us on these Benches, was not to be congratulated on effecting a substantive change to the Bill that improves it. Members on all sides will want to join the Minister in paying tribute to the noble Lord’s efforts.
As to the rather peculiar route taken by the Government in this matter, I think it became apparent to those of us who attended the meeting chaired by the noble Baroness at which the noble Lord, Lord Prior, was present, together with the silent presence of the Minister for devolution and the northern powerhouse, that at that point there really had been virtually no contact between the relevant departments, notably DCLG and the Department of Health. Clearly matters have improved since then and the House will be grateful to the two Ministers, who I suspect have got together much more effectively than had been possible at that stage. So far as the Opposition are concerned, we welcome the changes that have been made.
But questions still remain, some of which I referred to in my earlier speech in relation to the first group, about the position particularly in what are now county areas, where it is conceivable that certain districts may affiliate to combined authorities in an adjacent area. If, for example, there was a situation where there was a district council in Cheshire rather than a unitary, which joined the combined authority—it may or may not; I have no idea what is happening in the north-west, and no doubt my noble friend Lord Smith will enlighten us—and it affiliated for economic purposes with the combined authority and health was then taken over by that combined authority, what would happen to the social care part of the overall concept of health and social care? I do not think that that question has been resolved. It certainly has not been resolved in my mind, but that may be a defect on my part. It would be good to have some enlightenment about that situation.
4.15 pm
A move like that would not only have an impact on the authority that is moving into a combined authority but, potentially, have a significant impact on the residual
services available within the county that it will have left for these purposes. It may not have started out that way but, in time, what may have begun as an economic decision may be changed by the devolution of health in the way that has been described. It would be helpful if the Minister would indicate in particular the Government’s view about the potential for difficulties involving the social care aspect of what needs to be a closer working partnership between these two services, which I think all parties recognise is highly desirable.
I also think that we all await with great interest the outcome in Greater Manchester. It is an attractive concept but it may have different implications for different areas and may not be quite as straightforward as we would like to think. My fear is that county districts joining, for some purposes but not for others, a combined authority may not really have been given any serious consideration. If it has not thus far—bearing in mind the Manchester experience as it evolves—it should certainly be the subject of further consideration and discussion, not only with health bodies but also with local government.
Lord Shipley: From these Benches, I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for the success of all his work and for the determined way in which he made his proposals. It proves the value of this House in the legislative process and demonstrates one of the advantages of our getting a Bill first because some of the scrutiny work was done at that stage.
In the context of annual reporting, to which I referred a little while ago, when there is an annual report about the success of NHS devolution, will it not simply reflect the views of the NHS and the combined authorities but the views of all stakeholders in health and social care? It is a very simple thing, in a sense, but it could be easily missed. It would be very helpful to have a response to that request on the record.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con): My Lords, I am sorry I was not here at the beginning of this short debate. I had a meeting with a Minister on another matter. It was my privilege to consider with the noble Lord, Lord Warner, his original amendment. I supported it at that time, although not to the extent of going to the Division when he pressed it. From the answer that my noble friend had given, I believed that Ministers would take account of this. I sensed, possibly rightly, that it had not been very fully considered up to that point. I am glad that it is now being considered.
My concern is really the same as that of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. If it is not properly done, this kind of devolution could damage the nationality of the National Health Service, making it local with a postcode lottery according to where you happen to be. The amendment proposed by the Government is different in its way of approaching the matter and has dealt with that in a satisfactory way. I find it difficult to know the position about social care. I understand it is still a local authority responsibility and not for the National Health Service. The difference in funding is important in this connection also. I shall be glad to hear what the Minister has to say in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, on that point and on how the report will deal with the views of stakeholders other than just the central authorities themselves.
Lord Smith of Leigh (Lab): My Lords, I also support the amendments moved by the noble Lord, and I thank him for his explanation. When the noble Lords introduced the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, they obviously had a suspicion about what was going on in Greater Manchester— understandably so. We heard the phrase “postcode lottery” from the previous noble and learned Lord. One reason why Greater Manchester wants to take control of health is that there is a current postcode lottery. The average outcomes for health in Greater Manchester, despite the efforts of Governments of all persuasions since 1948, have remained doggedly subject to that postcode lottery. We want to use the powers that we can use locally to start to do something about it.
With the permission of your Lordships’ House, I shall try to explain what we are doing in Greater Manchester and why we need not fear. It is only 11 months since we signed the original memorandum of understanding with NHS England to share health. The combined authority has not taken control of health; we share responsibility with our health partners. Our number one achievement is to raise the governance. We have 37 difference organisations in Greater Manchester with some responsibility for this agenda. I have the dubious task of chairing the strategic partnership board, but colleagues across the piece are working collectively to achieve an outcome. In our collaboration with NHS England, the regulators are being as sympathetic as possible.
Already we have seen clinical benefits. We have made sure that every area of Greater Manchester has access to a hub seven days a week so that people can receive medical advice—which was not the case before—and that has continued to expand. We have started to commission collectively more work on public health, recognising that this will be a key to achieving significant change in population health. We set up an organisation called Dementia United, which is going to join all the partners together to look at dementia in terms of acute services, primary care services and social care. In December, we agreed a strategic plan to take us forward for the next few years in Greater Manchester. It complies with all national objectives and reflects the needs of Greater Manchester as a sub-region, but also the localities within Greater Manchester.
The focus, first, is on prevention. If we can get people not to need healthcare, that is the best way for people, for the health system and for care. We need to make sure that each locality addresses the issues that exist in those 10 areas of Greater Manchester. There is quite wide variation in provision, as one might expect, between GP services in one area and another. We just got those up to the same level and have made a great improvement. With acute care services, again there is huge variation between the outcomes of hospitals in Greater Manchester. We need to improve that, and we need to give better support both in the clinical and the back-office sense. To fund this, apart from the money we get from the Government, we think we can operate more efficiently and effectively by integrating lots of services; that will be important.
We are also grateful to the Government for allowing us an initial injection of funding from the transformation fund. Skilled negotiation on our part and obviously the generosity of the Government meant that we got £450 million from that fund. That will kick-start some major changes in Greater Manchester. The benefits will include better clinical outcomes; we have targets on those. We will make sure that children get to school at the age of five in better health and are more ready for school than they are at the moment. We are supporting the elderly so that they can live longer in their own homes.
This is not just about health, however. If we can start to improve the health of people in Greater Manchester, it will reduce some of the barriers to employment and help us to get more people into work. The next step, obviously, will be better engagement with the public and, crucially, with the staff across both NHS and social care. We are making sure that we have detailed implementation plans, so that this does not become a dusty strategic report—one that is very worthy but stays on the shelf—but is actually implemented. The strategy will make a difference, we believe, to the lives of people in Greater Manchester.
I should emphasise that, the more I have gone into this, the more I have come to realise that there is no boundary between health and social care. The figures vary, but they say that some 40% of the people who come to see the GP in his surgery are not really seeing him on medical matters but on social matters. For example, they may have housing problems or employment problems, so they are not sleeping at night and need support, and so they come to the doctor for tranquillisers. Some GPs are good at dealing with that; some simply give the tranquilisers. We need to make sure that we start to address the issues that people have and not assume all the time that it must be a medical issue.
My noble friend Lord Beecham asked what happens to the areas around Greater Manchester. Obviously, that is not determined, although we have already made a decision on acute provision in Greater Manchester that reflects Derbyshire, because, clearly, many in north-west Derbyshire—in Glossop and so on—look to Greater Manchester rather than elsewhere, and so we clearly need to reflect that. However, such areas would need their own locality plan for what they are doing in that area, working together with all the local health and social care partners. There is a need to reflect that some stuff is done at the regional level, some stuff is done at the sub-regional level and some stuff is done at the local level.
Social care is an important element of this. In some parts of Greater Manchester, under the locality plan the acute hospital will run the social care services. In other areas, such as Wigan, we will have a care organisation to ensure that everyone looks at how we can stop people getting ill—that is our main intention—rather than treating them once they are ill. That will vary slightly in different areas, but we will reflect those different localities.
We are making good progress and there is great collaboration going on. I thank the Government for the opportunity, and I think we will make a difference.
Lord Prior of Brampton: My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for his very friendly comments—long may they continue. As he and other noble Lords have mentioned, this is a good example of the scrutiny provided by this House in ensuring that we have, as my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay mentioned, a truly National Health Service, and that this legislation preserves, rather than undermines, the integrity of the National Health Service, with accountability, after devolution, still clearly with the Secretary of State for Health and to Parliament.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked what will happen in the event that things do not work out—I think that was the issue that he raised. The answer is, I think, that it will depend on the negotiations in each individual case. There need to be sensible arrangements from the outset as to what will happen in the event that things do not work out, which the Secretary of State will need to take a view on when agreeing to the deal at the beginning. In a sense, the end game needs to be considered early on in the proceedings. However, I may have missed the point that the noble Lord was making.
Lord Beecham: That may be partly my fault. My point was not that things might not work out in, for example, the Greater Manchester context; the problem that I raise is the situation that might arise where a district comes out of a county and into a combined authority for certain purposes and that combined authority decides that it wants to deal with health, but the social services provision, unless there is another change, remains with the county within which that district exists. That seems to me the area that has not yet been resolved; it is certainly not clear in my mind and, looking around, I think that there are others whose minds may also be confused by the situation. It is not an easy question for the Minister to answer, and if he is not able to do so, I will understand, but I think that it is a matter that needs to be addressed between the two departments and, if I may say so, in consultation with the local government world as well as the health world, before we get to the point where the situation becomes one where such a risk develops. It is not the case in Greater Manchester, but it may occur elsewhere if we have that movement by county districts into combined authorities for some purposes.
4.30 pm
Baroness Hollis of Heigham (Lab): My noble friend is spot on, but there is an additional complication because that very same district authority will be responsible for housing, including supported housing, which is to some extent under assault, as we may discuss on the second Bill we are considering today, the Welfare Reform Bill. We could have three players here: a combined authority with devolved NHS responsibility; a county council that may or may not be willing in principle to send over some of its social services, such as adult social care; and the district council that remains responsible for the bricks and mortar side, as opposed to the support services side, for, say, the frail elderly, hostels, refuges and the like. There is a real problem about ensuring the consensual structure that we all want to see. We welcome the Government’s responsiveness to the untidiness of geography and of functions, but there are a lot of issues still to be resolved on this score.
Lord Beecham: I am sorry to intervene again, but from what my noble friend just said it occurs to me that it is not just social care; one has to think about education and children’s services, where there is also a potential dimension. So far, nobody has mentioned that. That is another department that ought to be involved. Of course, we cannot resolve this today, but I urge that the kind of discussions I have mentioned should take place, and I now add the education department to that.
Lord Prior of Brampton: My Lords, life is untidy, unfortunately. It is never clear and you cannot foresee all eventualities. The only response I can give noble Lords today is that the Secretary of State will deal with each matter on a case-by-case basis. I do not think that anyone can lay down a blueprint for dealing with that now, but I am happy to discuss it with the noble Lord and the noble Baroness if they want to do so. Maybe this is not the right place to go into all of that. I hope that that will be acceptable to them.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised the report on the success of devolution. I think I can speak for the Secretary of State for Health in saying that he would want to involve all relevant stakeholders in that report, not least patients, frankly, for obvious reasons. I am happy to put that on the record.
I conclude by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Smith, for updating us all on what is happening in Manchester. We on both sides of the House wish Greater Manchester well. It is a trailblazer and a very important development. We hope that we will see more devolution across England while still retaining the central accountability and integrity of the National Health Service.
Motion on Amendments 45 to 51 agreed.
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 52.
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, in moving the Motion I shall speak against the amendment to the Motion, which will be moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley.
Commons Amendment 52 removes from the Bill Clause 20, which would amend Section 2 of the Representation of the People Act 1983 by lowering the minimum voting age from 18 to 16 for the local government franchise in England and Wales. Accepting Commons Amendment 52 would maintain the status quo on that local government franchise. Through his amendment the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, seeks to change that franchise so that 16 and 17 year-olds could vote in all elections that are based on this local government franchise, including local government elections in England and Wales, police and crime commissioner elections, those for the Greater London Authority and mayor, and elections to the National Assembly for Wales. Sixteen and 17 year-olds would be eligible to vote in local neighbourhood planning referendums, council tax referendums and referendums on local authority governance arrangements.
We have discussed the voting age a number of times, and I do not wish to detain this House any longer than may be necessary on this matter. On each occasion we have made the Government’s position clear—that is, we do not believe that it is appropriate to lower the voting age to 16; and even if it was, this Bill would not be the place to make such a change.
Moreover, the other place has on two occasions, and by significant majorities, voted in support of its Amendment 52 maintaining the status quo on the local government franchise. The views of the other place are clear, and I believe that on such significant constitutional matters this unelected House should accept the very clear decision of the other place, given the democratic legitimacy that it has.
As to the substantive arguments, which we have made clear in earlier debates on this issue, it is at 18 rather than 16 that society generally views a young person as becoming an adult. Furthermore, most democracies consider 18 the right age to enfranchise young people. Only Austria in the European Union has lowered the voting age to 16 for national elections. While accepting that it is entirely right that the issue of the franchise in Scotland is one for the Scottish Parliament, the Scottish experience and position do not provide an example that this Parliament must necessarily follow.
Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD): My Lords, I cannot see the Minister’s noble friend Lady Goldie, who led for her party in the Scottish Parliament on this issue and gave enthusiastic backing for lowering the voting age for local government elections in Scotland. Given what the Minister has just said, will she clarify the Conservative Party’s position on the capacity of 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in local government elections? Her party seems to think that it is peculiarly difficult for English 16 and 17 year-olds to vote in council elections but that Scottish 16 and 17 year-olds have that capacity. Therefore, if local elections fell on the same day in Berwick and Berwickshire, the English 16 and 17 year-olds would, in the opinion of the Conservative Party, not have the relevant capacity whereas those in Berwickshire would. Will the Minister explain why that is the case?
Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I think I said that the franchise in Scotland was a matter for the Scottish Government, that this unelected House was not the place to discuss the franchise, that this Bill was not the place to discuss the franchise and that the other place had given its very decisive view on the franchise. Those are the main points I am making, not that children in Berwick are less able than children in Glasgow to have this franchise. I am discussing the appropriateness of introducing this measure in this place on this Bill at this time, and urging noble Lords not to support it. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, will withdraw his amendment. It may be appropriate to have a full discussion on the franchise in the round at another time but now is not the time to do it. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Leave out “agree” and insert “disagree”.
Lord Shipley: My Lords, back in July, on Report, this House voted by 221 votes to 154—a majority of 67—that 16 and 17 year-olds should have the right to vote in local elections. When the Bill went to the House of Commons, this decision was reversed and, as a consequence, the matter has returned to this House to be considered once again.
I find it strange that so much emphasis is put on citizenship in young people’s education but that the natural extension of this to enable them to vote is a step this Government seem reluctant to take. Ten years ago, the Power commission, funded by the Joseph Rowntree Trust, concluded in its report on how to increase political participation that the voting age should be lowered to 16. It was one of its key recommendations, but it has never been acted on.
We cannot complain that younger generations are not engaging with politics when they cannot participate fully. Young people surely have a right to a say in how the communities they live in are run. They use public services locally; they are very politically conscious and we ought to build on that. Crucially, we need to get young people into the way of voting and starting at 18 can be too late, as turnout levels of people under 25 show. Our democracy depends on high levels of participation, and voting at 16 would instil in more young people the habit of voting. We now have the precedent of the Scottish referendum, 16 months ago, when 16 and 17 year-olds were entitled to vote. Although Scotland is outside the scope of the Bill, this precedent has served, in practice, as a pilot and has changed mindsets because it was a clear success.
Noble Lords are all aware that votes at 16 has been the subject of ongoing debate in this House since the general election. In recent months, we have had significant debates on the right to vote at 16 in the EU referendum Bill. We asked the Government to rethink their position, but this was reversed in the other place and, by a narrow margin, not pressed further in this House. In the context of that decision on the EU referendum Bill, I have carefully considered whether there is a justification for asking the House of Commons to think again about lowering the voting age in the context of this Bill. For this is a different Bill: it relates to local government, not to a referendum, and I have concluded that there is a case and a justification for doing so. The issue is important: it relates to the nature of our democracy and young people’s engagement with the democratic process. In the House of Commons, on 17 November, the Minister said that:
“It is undeniable that there is a debate to be had on the issue”.—[Official Report, Commons, 17/11/15; col. 556.]
I agree with him, and I think this House would do so, too. However, it is not clear to me when the Government plan to have that debate. I will listen very carefully to anything further the Minister has to say in response to this debate but, for the moment, I beg to move.
The Earl of Listowel (CB): My Lords, adolescence is a difficult time for all young people, whether they grow up in loving families or not. I remain concerned that the amendment would put an additional burden on adolescents. I am also worried that it would put a target on the back of young people for unscrupulous politicians, which might be unhelpful. Finally, I agree with Barry Sheerman, a very well-respected Labour MP
who was, for many years, head of the Education Select Committee in the other place. In recent discussions on the franchise in that place, he talked of his concern about the shrinking of childhood.