Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jowell, B.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of Cradley, B.
Kennedy of Southwark, L.
Kerr of Kinlochard, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of Bow, B.
Kinnock, L.
Kinnock of Holyhead, B.
Kinnoull, E.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Kramer, B.
Lane-Fox of Soho, B.
Lawrence of Clarendon, B.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lennie, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Liddle, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Lister of Burtersett, B.
Livermore, L.
Loomba, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
Ludford, B.
McAvoy, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mandelson, L.
Manzoor, B.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Maxton, L.
Meacher, B. [Teller]
Mendelsohn, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Ely, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Murphy of Torfaen, L.
Newby, L.
Northbourne, L.
Northover, B.
Nye, B.
Oates, L.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
O'Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Oxford and Asquith, E.
Paddick, L.
Palmer of Childs Hill, L.
Patel, L. [Teller]
Patel of Bradford, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Prosser, B.
Purvis of Tweed, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Ramsbotham, L.
Randerson, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Rebuck, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rees of Ludlow, L.
Reid of Cardowan, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
St Albans, Bp.
St John of Bletso, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharkey, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheehan, B.
Sherlock, B.
Shipley, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Basildon, B.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Newnham, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stephen, L.
Stern, B.
Stevenson of Balmacara, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Stoneham of Droxford, L.
Storey, L.
Strasburger, L.
Stunell, L.
Suttie, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Taylor of Goss Moor, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Thornton, B.
Thurlow, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Tyler, L.
Tyler of Enfield, B.
Verjee, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watts, L.
West of Spithead, L.
Wheeler, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigley, L.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Willis of Knaresborough, L.
Wood of Anfield, L.
Worcester, Bp.
Worthington, B.
Young of Hornsey, B.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.
NOT CONTENTS
Ahmad of Wimbledon, L.
Altmann, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arbuthnot of Edrom, L.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Ashton of Hyde, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Balfe, L.
Barker of Battle, L.
Bates, L.
Bell, L.
Berridge, B.
Black of Brentwood, L.
Borwick, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bourne of Aberystwyth, L.
Bowness, L.
Boyce, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brady, B.
Bridges of Headley, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Caithness, E.
Carrington of Fulham, L.
Cathcart, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chisholm of Owlpen, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cooper of Windrush, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cormack, L.
Courtown, E.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dannatt, L.
De Mauley, L.
Deben, L.
Deighton, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dobbs, L.
Dunlop, L.
Eaton, B.
Eccles, V.
Elton, L.
Evans of Bowes Park, B.
Fall, B.
Farmer, L.
Faulks, L.
Feldman of Elstree, L.
Fellowes of West Stafford, L.
Fink, L.
Finkelstein, L.
Finn, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Framlingham, L.
Freeman, L.
Freud, L.
Gardiner of Kimble, L. [Teller]
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilbert of Panteg, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Goldie, B.
Goodlad, L.
Goschen, V.
Grade of Yarmouth, L.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hailsham, V.
Harding of Winscombe, B.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayward, L.
Helic, B.
Henley, L.
Heyhoe Flint, B.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Abinger, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holmes of Richmond, L.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Horam, L.
Howard of Lympne, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
Jenkin of Kennington, B.
Jopling, L.
Keen of Elie, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lansley, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Leigh of Hurley, L.
Lexden, L.
Lingfield, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livingston of Parkhead, L.
Lupton, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McGregor-Smith, B.
McIntosh of Pickering, B.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Magan of Castletown, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
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Norton of Louth, L.
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Pidding, B.
Plumb, L.
Polak, L.
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Prior of Brampton, L.
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Ridley, V.
Risby, L.
Robathan, L.
Rock, B.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sassoon, L.
Scott of Bybrook, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Shackleton of Belgravia, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheikh, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Sherbourne of Didsbury, L.
Shields, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Smith of Hindhead, L.
Somerset, D.
Spicer, L.
Stedman-Scott, B.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Stowell of Beeston, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Stroud, B.
Suri, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L. [Teller]
Tebbit, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trimble, L.
True, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Wakeham, L.
Warsi, B.
Wasserman, L.
Wheatcroft, B.
Whitby, L.
Willetts, L.
Williams of Trafford, B.
Young of Cookham, L.
Young of Graffham, L.
Younger of Leckie, V.
6.21 pm
Amendments 42 and 43 not moved.
Clause 14: Universal credit: limited capability for work element
Clause 15: Universal credit: work-related requirements
44A: Clause 15, page 14, line 30, at end insert—
“( ) in section 14 (claimant commitment) after subsection (5) insert—
“(6) In preparing a claimant commitment for a claimant, the Secretary of State shall have regard (so far as is practicable) to its impact on the wellbeing of any child who may be affected by it.””
Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, Amendment 44A is in my name and the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, who tabled a similar amendment in Committee. We return to the issue because we were not satisfied with the response in Committee to what we believe is a strong case for explicitly writing into the claimant commitment a provision to ensure that regard is had to the best interests of any child cared for by the claimant, in line with Article 3.1 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Thus the aim of the amendment is to ensure that the well-being of any child is taken into account when a job coach agrees a claimant commitment, which records a claimant’s responsibilities and the agreed actions that they will take to seek and find work. This is something that the Office of the Children’s Commissioner has pressed for as well.
The other reason for returning to the issue is to ask what has happened to a similar provision that was inserted into the Welfare Reform Act 2009, as Section 31, during its passage through your Lordships’ House. I am sure that my noble friend Lord McKenzie will talk about this as well, because he was responsible for adding that section in response to a series of amendments from the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, which had the support of the Conservative Opposition, whose spokesperson was the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale. The noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, made a very telling point:
“A work action plan would not be worth its salt if it harmed a participant’s children in some way, through unsuitable hours or a lack of suitable childcare. I suspect that the Minister will resist these amendments by saying that of course we would expect any back-to-work plan to take into account the needs of children. If that is so, he should not be afraid to accept these amendments, or ones very similar to them, as a confirmation of that”.—[Official Report, 11/6/09; col. GC 167-8.]
I am tempted to leave it there and say, “I rest my case, my Lords”. However, there is a bit more to be said, and before turning to today’s amendment, I want to ask the Minister why Section 31 has not yet been brought into force seven years later. When Emily Thornberry MP asked a Question about this recently in the other place, the Employment Minister responded:
“There are no current plans to bring into force Section 31 of the Welfare Reform Act 2009”.
Why not? The case for it is all the stronger today, as conditionality has been ratcheted up with its gradual extension to parents with ever younger children, so that under this Bill parents of children aged three will be expected to move into paid work.
When we debated a similar amendment in Committee, the noble Baroness replied pretty much on the line anticipated by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, back in 2009. She painted a rather idealised picture of the kind of conversation that work coaches have with claimants, not recognised by organisations such as Gingerbread working in the field. I should say here that I am grateful to Gingerbread for its help with this amendment. She suggested that the aim of the amendment was,
“achievable through existing legislation and it would be unduly burdensome to set out this level of detail in primary legislation”.—[
Official Report
, 9/12/15; col. 1664.]
However, this is not about some technical detail; it is about a basic principle enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, to which the Government
have signed up. In what way is it burdensome? The implication is that it would be burdensome for job coaches always to ensure that regard is had for a child’s well-being. To repeat what the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, said, a claimant commitment,
“would not be worth its salt if it harmed a participant’s children in some way”,
for instance, through unsuitable hours or unaffordable or inaccessible childcare. I know that Ministers think that parental paid work is intrinsically in the best interests of children, but, as I said in Committee, the evidence from academic work is actually more nuanced than that. The evidence also shows that the existing guidance for parents of young children is too often not followed.
The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, spoke in support of what became Section 31 during the 2009 debate. She was also part of a 2015 inquiry into women on jobseeker’s allowance, the launch of which I attended. That found evidence of divergence from the guidance in the claimant commitment that parents were asked to sign. This included a survey of lone parents that found that nearly a third of them stated that their commitment was written entirely by their adviser without any input from them and did not take account of their need also to care for their child. It is a common theme on Gingerbread’s helpline each month that parents of young children have been given inappropriate instruction that did not take account of the well-being of their children.
I will give just three examples from within the past six months. A parent with a two year-old child was wrongly told by her adviser that she needed to look for paid work. She is currently not required to do that until her child is five. A mother of a five year-old child had to sign a claimant commitment to say that she had to look for full-time work. She should have been able to look for work during school hours only. A caller with a 20 month-old child was wrongly told by her adviser at the jobcentre that she had to look for work or do courses, or her benefit would stop. These are just examples of what we described in Committee as the “parallel universe” occupied by claimants and their advisers on the ground, so different from the one described by Ministers.
The noble Baroness the Minister also said:
“It would also not be fair only to prescribe that claimant commitments must contain information relating to the well-being of children”.—[Official Report, 9/12/15; col. 1664.]
Could she expand on that, please? In what way would it not be fair to ensure that regard is had to the well-being of children in drawing up a claimant commitment? The intention is not that the commitment has to contain information about any child’s well-being; we are not looking for a survey of how children are doing, or the kind of survey that my noble friend Lord McKenzie was talking about the other day in relation to well-being. It just needs to show that regard has been had to it in a way that was clearly not the case in the examples cited.
Once more I refer back to the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Skelmersdale, when he was speaking for the Conservative Opposition: why, if a child’s well-being is being taken into account by work coaches
during the drafting of agreements, would the Minister be afraid to have this written into legislation? I urge the department to bring Section 31 of the Welfare Reform Act 2009 into force without further delay and to accept this amendment, or bring forward a similar amendment, at Third Reading. I beg to move.
6.30 pm
Baroness Manzoor: My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, on this amendment. Once again, we had a very good debate in Committee, and, in her usual fashion, the noble Baroness has laid out a very comprehensive argument with which I concur absolutely. I can therefore add very little to that argument except to press the Minister again to say why the well-being of children is not being factored in when it already has been. For noble Lords who were not in the Chamber earlier, I will read what the amendment says. This is all is says—which is why I have difficulty in understanding why it cannot be in the Bill. The amendment states:
“In preparing a claimant commitment for a claimant, the Secretary of State shall have regard (so far as is practicable) to its impact on the wellbeing of any child who may be affected by it”.
The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I will briefly support this amendment. Before doing so, however, I have not had an opportunity to thank the noble Lord, the Minister’s colleague, for the assurance and commitment that adoptive parents, kinship carers and others will be kept out of the two-parent limit. I was very grateful to hear that from him.
The amendment, which I support, brings to mind two questions. If a child has had, for instance, pneumonia, and subsequently gets ill on a regular basis, what mechanism is in place to allow for the fact that the child has been and continues to be unwell on a periodic basis, which will allow the parent to give the child the care they need to recover fully from this issue?
The other question—perhaps I am stretching a little—is with regard to dealing with mental health. There has been a great deal of concern about perinatal mental health, and clearly this is an opportunity to spot perinatal mental ill health, including post-natal depression, and to do something about it. I may have missed other debates during the course of the Bill—perhaps the Minister can refer me to them or just drop me a line—but I know that information about the health of welfare claimants cannot be shared with the health service directly. Are the Government thinking of doing what they do in police stations, which is to station a mental health professional in the jobcentre itself so that they can help spot any issues of this kind and ensure that the parent and child get the support they need to deal with that?
Baroness Meacher: My Lords, I will contribute briefly to this debate in support of the amendment. The issue here is that we are in a very different benefits culture from the one we had maybe until 2010—I am not sure when exactly. The point is that the claimant commitment is the basis for sanctioning. If a parent fails to comply with a claimant commitment, that is when they will be sanctioned. If the claimant commitment is completely unrealistic and the parent cannot comply
with it—for example, if it requires the parent to travel 90 minutes each way and they manage to have childcare for only five or six hours a day, or whatever it is—it will be physically impossible for them to satisfy that claimant commitment.
We know, certainly from the Fawcett Society inquiry I was involved with, that there is quite a need for training for these staff. That of course goes back for as long as I have ever been involved with welfare matters, which is probably some 40 years. Staff are very poorly paid, they tend to be rather inadequately trained and there is always a rapid turnover of staff, so you always have new staff who are trying to learn the rules, and so on. So this claimant commitment takes on a far greater significance in this day and age than it would have done 30 or 40 years ago.
That is why I ask the Government to take this very seriously. They need to accept that they have low-paid staff, a rapid turnover, poor training, and therefore that sanctions happen utterly inappropriately. The claimant commitments are wildly unrealistic in the experience of the inquiry I was involved with, which is very dangerous for the children. The parent goes along on a Friday to pick up their benefit and is told, “Oh, sorry”—or probably not even “sorry”—“your benefit has been stopped”. Is there any supper for the children? No, sorry, no food in the house—and so on. It is very serious for children affected by sanctions following the claimant commitment. That is why, although this sounds like a fairly innocuous amendment, believe me, it is very important.
Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I agree wholeheartedly with this amendment. It would be difficult to do otherwise because, as my noble friend reminded us, I moved a parallel amendment to what became the Welfare Reform Act 2009 when we were in government. When one looks back at legislation one has been responsible for there is always a moment of trepidation, but we are on safe ground in this case. Those were the days when the noble Lords, Lord Skelmersdale and Lord Northbourne, were heavily involved in our debates. Having said that—and I underline the importance that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, has placed on this amendment—it is slightly disconcerting to understand that one’s labours at the Dispatch Box all those years ago have lain dormant and fallow, so I press the Minister to say why it has not been introduced.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park (Con): My Lords, this amendment, tabled by the noble Baronesses, Lady Lister and Lady Manzoor, seeks to set into primary legislation a requirement for the Secretary of State, when preparing a claimant commitment, to have regard to the impact on any child affected by it. I fully support the principle that requirements should be adjusted according to individuals’ personal circumstances, including the well-being of any children for whom the claimant is responsible. However, this amendment proposes to unnecessarily prescribe the contents of the claimant commitment in the Welfare Reform Act 2012. During discussions with individuals, work coaches already take into account all the personal circumstances relevant to both claimant and child when agreeing work-related activities. We continually review the operation
of the claimant commitment and will act on anything we find that can be improved. Claimants can request a review of their claimant commitment if they have concerns.
On the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, about Section 31 of the 2009 Act, it applies to JSA and ESA, not universal credit. As part of the claimant commitment, parents can input into the contents of the commitment within universal credit.
We are very clear about the importance of our responsibilities with regard to the well-being of children. Regulations 98 and 99 cover the circumstances in which all or some requirements should be suspended for a temporary period, which includes circumstances in which a parent has to spend time caring for a child in distress or if they are in the kind of situation which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, talked about. The number of hours a claimant is expected to spend carrying out work-related activity is also tailored so as to be compatible with the claimant’s individual childcare responsibilities.
These reasonable requirements, including any limiting or lifting and the reasons for this, are recorded within the claimant commitment. The amendment does not specify that it applies to the responsible care of a child; it refers to “any child”, which would make it extremely difficult to determine which children are being referred to other than those within the claimant’s responsibility. This would make it difficult for jobcentres to effectively administer.
The key principle of the claimant commitment is that we treat people as individuals and tailor their requirements accordingly. We have chosen not to prescribe in legislation what a claimant commitment should take account of in order that we can reflect all the possible circumstances people can present with. It would be too prescriptive to single out one element—the well-being of a child—and legislate that claimant commitments must contain this information. It would not be practical to prescribe everything a claimant commitment should contain—we want to take account of a broad range of circumstances.
We know that developing a skilled workforce is key to realising the flexibilities that we have built into the legislative framework of universal credit. We want to empower our work coaches to use this broad discretion to make sound decisions that are right for the individual in front of them. As the noble Baroness said, I talked at length about the work under way to invest in learning and development of our front-line staff, including the work coach delivery model and accreditation. I did that because I wanted to stress the importance we place on making sure that work coaches are trained and that they use their discretion to the benefit of the families they work with. I emphasised that element because I wanted to stress to noble Lords that we take that very seriously.
Existing legislation already enables us to take account of the well-being of children when setting a claimant commitment; it is something that work coaches routinely do. Therefore we do not believe that it is necessary to set out this level of detail in primary legislation. I hope that on that basis the noble Baroness will withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett: My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken. The noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, asked what there is to object to. It is a good question. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, gave a very good example of what happens when a child is unwell. But the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, in a sense finished off the argument by talking about the implications of the well-being of the child not being taken into account in a culture where many people are sanctioned—and, as the evidence from her inquiry showed, sometimes sanctioned for the wrong reasons.
I am again disappointed by the Minister’s response. It seemed simply to repeat the arguments that were made in Committee and did not really engage with the counter-arguments that I put. She said that Section 31 applies to JSA ESA. Yes, many lone parents are still claiming those benefits and will be for some time. As we know, universal credit is being rolled out slowly and the more complicated cases will move on to it more slowly, so why is it not being introduced in the mean time? I find it very sad that the good work of my noble friend Lord McKenzie is gathering dust. In fact, it was the good work done by the noble Lord, Lord Northbourne, that started it all, because it was his amendments that triggered this section, but nothing has happened. Therefore, I am afraid that the fact that it is JSA ESA is irrelevant.
This is not just one other detail; the best interests of the child is a fundamental principle that policy-making and legislation is supposed to have regard to in this country, or in any country that has signed up to the UN convention. So I am disappointed. Again, we have evidence of a sort of parallel universe where all the wonderful conversations are being had. It is excellent that the training is happening and I welcome that. However, as I understand it, when lone parents had bespoke advisers who understood the issues, rather than generic job coaches, they tended to be treated much better than they are now.
The helplines of organisations such as Gingerbread are constantly showing that the best interests of the child are not being taken into account. When this Bill is out of the way, I wonder whether the noble Lord or the noble Baroness would be willing to meet those organisations to talk about why there is this difference in perception, and perhaps we could have another look at Section 31.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park: I shall be very happy to meet them.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett: I very much appreciate that. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
45: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause—
“Universal Credit (Work Allowance)
The Universal Credit (Work Allowance) Amendment Regulations 2015 are repealed.”
Baroness Manzoor: My Lords, I have tabled this new clause because I think it is fundamentally important. Noble Lords will recollect that Members of all parties and none were pleased when the Chancellor dropped his plans to cut tax credits. That happened only because of the pressure put upon him by this House.
I have put down this amendment because the universal credit changes are identical to the tax credit changes, so the arguments are almost identical. Although the universal credit changes come in later and will affect the flow, not the stock, of claimants, they will have exactly the same effect as the tax credit cuts. This impact has been confirmed both in the Red Book and by the Institute for Fiscal Studies, which says that the tax credit cuts will, in the long run, make no difference, as the cuts to universal credit will affect the very same people. On average, low-income working people will lose £1,000—again echoing the tax credit cuts.
6.45 pm
These changes are immensely troubling for a number of reasons. First, these cuts, as with tax credits, will hit low-income working people. They undermine the principal reason for creating universal credit—to ensure that work always pays. This has been a principle that the Chancellor has never really supported. During the coalition, Nick Clegg, among others, worked very hard to block attempts by the Chancellor to change the withdrawal rate in universal credit, yet the changes to which this amendment relates show that the Chancellor has now got his way. That should be deeply concerning for everyone who supports the aims of universal credit.
The second reason is that the changes will mean that, for the first time, universal credit will bring about an additional cut in people’s benefits. It will not be, as was originally envisaged, a mechanism to make low-income working people better off. According to the IFS, these changes will mean that, in total, 2.6 million working families will lose an average of £1,600 a year, compared with only 1.9 million gaining an average of £1,400. That is a long way from the proposals set out in the original plans for universal credit.
The third reason is the way these cuts will impact on families. As I said, the universal credit cuts will affect the flow of new claimants, not the stock of existing claimants or those migrated on to universal credit. However, the cuts will affect those who, having been migrated on to universal credit, see a change in their circumstances, and this is where, from our perspective, one of the nastiest points of the policy arises.
As I said in Committee, a change of circumstance can mean a change in the household make-up, including a new partner. That means that a single parent who finds a new partner and decides to become a two-parent family will lose a notional entitlement of around £1,000 in their benefit. We hear a lot from members of this Government about the benefits of two-parent families, but this change to universal credit amounts to a disincentive to that. What is more, regardless of the merits of two-parent families, the change acts as a disincentive to someone finding a new partner. Essentially, it amounts to what can only be described as a penalty on love—a “love tax”. How can we countenance a benefits system that provides such perverse incentives? Surely we cannot.
Turning from the impact of the cuts to the nature of the amendment, I am aware that some will say that it bears a relation to the vote that I instigated in this House to reject the mirroring statutory instrument on tax credits. While I and my noble friends on these Benches still believe that that was the right thing to do, as I said at the time, I did not discount the views of those who did not want to use the power of this House to decline to approve a statutory instrument on that occasion.
However, this amendment is not a Motion to decline or approve; it is an amendment to a Bill. It is perfectly right and reasonable for this House to consider an amendment to change or repeal regulations in the same way that we would consider any other amendment. Should this House agree to the amendment, as I hope it will, it would not kill off the regulations but would simply ask the Commons to consider its position, as is the role of this House. We would be doing our job in scrutinising. To be clear, this amendment is not a constitutional issue. For me and my colleagues on these Benches, it is purely one of principle—on the impact of the cuts to universal credit.
It is possible that we may also hear from the Minister about the cost of such a change. It is true that the amendment would have a high price tag, and it may be that the Commons would consider it financially privileged. However, if the Chancellor wisely accepted the principle of the arguments made in this House about tax credits, surely the principle of the argument against the same cuts but for the longer term must also stand—there would be no logic otherwise. If making work pay is a point of principle then the savings from this cut are surely not the issue. Universal credit was intended to enable those who wanted to get off benefits and into work to do so without losing out.
In a week when it has been revealed that large corporations have been allowed certain freedoms, it runs rather contrary that the Government want to interfere with the private lives and finances of hard-working people on low incomes.
Finally, I want to address the Labour Party and its Amendment 46A. I am deeply disappointed in that amendment. I have the utmost respect for the Labour Party’s Front Bench, but Amendment 46A is barely a shrivelled fig leaf. It asks for a review of the impact of these cuts. We know the impact: the Budget scores the savings, the IFS confirms the impact, and the NGOs and others have identified how it will affect people. Either you agree with this cut going ahead or you do not. Seeking a review to determine what we already know adds nothing and simply wastes valuable resources.
As I have said, reasonable objections to voting down a statutory instrument, which may have been the reason for Labour’s reticence to support our amendment previously, do not apply today given that this is simply an amendment to the Bill. I am therefore at a loss to understand why there would be objections to our amendment—unless the Labour Party simply supports the Government’s cut to universal credit. I ask everyone in the House to support this amendment in the Lobbies tonight and challenge the Government’s clear error of judgment over universal credit. The Chancellor got it right when he overturned the previous decision, and
we can do the same again today. Not doing so must surely be seen as a derogation of our duty to all those who will be affected by these cuts. I beg to move.
Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD): My Lords, I will add just a word to my noble friend’s excellent speech. I want to do three things: look at the context, share some new analytical evidence that I have just had access to and, finally, talk about the relationship between Amendments 45 and 46A.
For me, this is a significant moment for universal credit. I am determined to do everything in my power to bring universal credit to a successful, sustainable position if it is the last thing I do before I go to the great Parliament in the sky. This is an important moment. What we are arguing about is part of the strategic balance in the architecture of the system. I believe that the Chancellor, who is fully focused on the public finances, as perhaps Chancellors have to be, is completely blind to family budgets. That is evident in the way that he has been seeking some of the necessary public savings. I know that the Minister is completely innocent in terms of any of these changes. My spies are everywhere, and they actually give him quite high marks. One only had to read the newspapers over the late autumn, sensitively and between the lines, to know that we could have been facing rates of change to the reduction in the benefit of not just 65% but 75%. I believe that to be true and believe that the Minister was responsible for stopping that happening. I am deeply grateful for that. If that had happened, I would have given up any further attempt to make this policy work at all.
We are talking about work allowances and how they fit into the system. We have to get this sorted out once and for all, because although people have been told this before, I believe that in the 2016 fiscal year we will see a massive scaling up of universal credit, not just across all the job centres but in terms of the categories and numbers of claimants that will be admitted. I am anxious that that should happen. However, I make the point that there are a lot of problems waiting on the other side of that, which we know about and have been working on. We have to get the architecture right before the scale-up starts, and work allowances are an essential ingredient.
My noble friend’s amendment actually works with the grain of government policy much better than the Chancellor’s proposal does. The universal credit, making work pay and work incentive momentum will be significantly reduced if these work allowances are reduced in the way that is being suggested.
We are able now to start to look at some of the impacts on universal credit recipients as the rollout moves on. I will very briefly sketch through some analysis I have seen from Policy in Practice, a group of people whose judgment I trust. It has done some forecasting of the effects of the impact of universal credit on recipients. The analysis makes three points. First, with no mitigation plan in place for people currently on universal credit, all households in work and on universal credit in April 2016 can expect to be worse off as a result of reduced work allowances.
It estimates that 96,000 households in work will be worse off by April 2016. I see the wrinkling of a ministerial nose already. I know that this is the Minister’s territory and I am sure that he will want to look at some of these figures, but that is what I am told and I am reading it as accurately as I can.
The second worrying point raised by the Policy in Practice analysis, and with an indirect relationship to the work allowances changes, is the finding that taking into account the national living wage and higher personal allowance—that is, the government package—35% of universal credit recipients will be worse off in 2020 without transitional protection. If that is anything like true, we should be worried.
Even more interestingly, and perhaps more worryingly, the third conclusion of the analysis is that households that are worse off under universal credit would need to work additional hours in order to not be worse off from these changes. Policy in Practice’s current best estimate puts the combined figure at an additional 10 million hours each week across the United Kingdom that would need to be found and worked before people could protect their income in the long run. Worse than that, it then goes on to say that, at the same time, cuts to work allowances will limit the dynamic effect of universal credit by up to 2.5 million hours each week, and that is on top of the OBR estimate that the national living wage will reduce the weekly hours available by a further 1.8 million hours each week.
If you combine these factors, we are looking at the possibility of making it more difficult for households to make up their shortfall by working additional hours. I am sure that that will all be tested in due course when the figures are made available. However, that is the scale of the challenge that we may be facing as a result of some of these work allowance changes. I am certainly concerned that this is a significant change that we need to think about very carefully.
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We will be looking across the House for support— my noble friend adverted to this—but my spies in the Labour Party tell me that it might be setting its face against this amendment should my noble friend wish to test the opinion of the House. I find that surprising, if it is true, because I made a point of following the excellent speech made by Emily Thornberry on 19 November 2015 in the House of Commons First Delegated Legislation Committee. Ms Thornberry is obviously a rising star because she is now shadow Secretary of State for Defence. In her excellent speech she confessed that she cannot put IKEA BILLY bookcases together, which might be slightly worrying in someone who might be running the defences of the country. However, I have sympathy with her because I could not either.
Ms Thornberry made an important speech. She was trying to resist exactly the same regulations that are the subject of my noble friend’s amendment. She started by saying that the Opposition do not support the regulations. These are the same regulations and that was on 19 November. She made a truly excellent speech—I could not have made a better one myself—in which she rehearsed the history and talked about the 2009 CSJ version of dynamic benefits, which was the
forerunner to universal credit. She described it as the “Old Testament” of universal credit. I am not sure about that; I will need to ask my minister at the weekend. She went on to look at the 2010 version of the White Paper. She supported that and a more generous disregard because she thought it would make work pay. She said that these regulations would turn the “disregard making work pay” argument on its head. She complained effectively, as we have here, as I have myself, about the lack of adequate impact assessment. She referred to the consequences, with special reference to single parents, and we heard something about that in the earlier stages of the Bill. She cited extensively and effectively from a range of expert organisations in support of her case that these regulations were not sensible. She ended with a sentence which says it all:
“These cuts will not be passed unchallenged. The Opposition will be voting against them today”.—[Official Report, Commons, First Delegated Legislation Committee, 19/11/15; col. 6.]
My question to the Labour Front Bench is this: if that was its position on 19 November, what is its position today? Having given consideration to these two amendments together, I believe that Amendment 45 is more strategically significant and important than Amendment 46A.
I speak only for myself but if the Labour Party is not going to support my noble friend if she presses Amendment 45, that would be deeply disappointing. It is not for me to tell the Labour Party how to vote but its Front Bench can be asked about what has changed since 19 November and whether it changes the approach that the Labour group will be taking on work allowances in UC in future. That, for me, is the significant question contained in these amendments.
Constructive opposition is not the exclusive prerogative of any opposition party on its own. Some procedural give and take would add value to collective opposition and would make the constructive opposition that we try to deploy in this House more effective. It is on that basis that, of the two amendments Amendment 45 is by far the most significant. I will be delighted if my noble friend presses it to a Division and I will follow her happily into the Lobbies.
Lord Oates (LD): My Lords, I support the amendment of my noble friend Lady Manzoor. One day before I entered this House the Government were defeated on tax credits. The Government were very upset but conceded the issue. Except that they did not—they found another way to cut support for hard-working people on low incomes. It was a more obscure way and they hoped that we would not notice it and that their attempts to bully this House might make us kow-tow.
As my noble friends Lady Manzoor and Lord Kirkwood have set out, these changes to UC have similar impacts on the same people as the tax credit changes. The Liberal Democrats strongly supported universal credit in government because we believed that it would increase work incentives. I am sure that the Secretary of State will be as dismayed as we are that his UC policy is being so consistently undermined by the Chancellor. I am sorry that we are not there any more to help resist that but we shall do so in this Chamber. If we opposed the tax credit changes, it is beyond me why we would not oppose these changes.
The Government have no mandate for the changes—quite the contrary. The Conservative manifesto says that the aim of welfare reform should be to reward hard work and protect the vulnerable. The changes in regulations do the opposite. Not only do they have no mandate, their manifesto requires that they should oppose such changes.
It would be great if Peers on the Benches opposite were to support us—although that may be rather hopeful—but, if they are not willing to do so, they should not trouble themselves to make protestations to the public that they are on the side of the working poor. I await with interest to hear the position of the Official Opposition. I hope that Labour Peers will support us and that, if they were planning not to, they will reconsider. What is the point of all the controversy and antagonism that took place over the tax credits votes if, only three months later, we allow measures that impact on the same people in a similar way to go through? If Labour does not support us through the same opposition that it showed in the House of Commons, as my noble friend Lord Kirkwood pointed out, there will not be any point in it weeping tears of regret when the impact of these measures come to be felt by the public. It will not be able to wash away its failure to stand with us tonight and to stand up for working people.
Baroness Sherlock: My Lords, Amendment 46A, in my name and that of my noble friend Lady Hollis, would require the Government to produce and lay before Parliament a report assessing the impact on work incentives of the Universal Credit (Work Allowance) Amendment Regulations 2015, which passed through Parliament last year. In particular it would require the Government to analyse data on income and hours worked by household type, and the impact of the regulations on the levels of awards of in-work support payable to claimants who have moved, or will move before 2018, from tax credits to universal credit as a result of changed circumstances.
I shall address the matter of substance first and then move on to the politics of the matter. I raised these matters in Committee to get the Minister to tell the House what would happen to people who were moving across from tax credits to universal credit. The answers were deeply worrying. It is now clear that two big and distinct problems are emerging in relation to universal credit. First, the incentives to enter and progress in work have been severely damaged by a succession of changes made by the Government. As the director of the Resolution Foundation observed, universal credit was set to be £2.3 billion more expensive than the six benefits it replaced. Indeed, versions of the policy early in the last Parliament were even more expensive than that. No wonder the Treasury was nervous about a fast rollout—not, I suspect, the chief concern facing it at the moment. But after repeated chipping away, it seems that universal credit will now actually save the Treasury money—more than £2 billion a year once it is fully in place. Of course, if it saves the Treasury money, it costs claimants money, so universal credit is no longer going to do the job it was meant to.
The final straw was the reduction in the work allowances that went through Parliament last autumn. After weeks of pressure from all quarters and being
asked to think again by this House through the Motion of my noble friend Lady Hollis, the Chancellor announced that he was scrapping the equivalent planned cuts to tax credits. I unreservedly welcomed that change. However, the Government decided to press ahead with comparable changes to universal credit. These various changes have done serious damage to work incentives, and, furthermore, the way that universal credit is now structured means that there is a significant problem with lack of work incentives for second earners and the position of self-employed people is a major problem.
Then we have the second problem: transitional protection. Iain Duncan Smith declared on “The Andrew Marr Show” in the wake of the tax credits change that no one would lose a penny from universal credit cuts. That is by no means clearly so. We know that if you take two working families with children in identical circumstances, but one on tax credits and the other on UC, the one on UC could be almost £3,000 a year worse off. How can nobody be a penny worse off? It depends on the transitional arrangements. Evidence given to Members of another place by the department suggests that there are two ways that people could end up moving from tax credits to UC. The first is “managed migration”, as the jargon has it. These are people who are moved over en bloc by the department, but that will not happen until 2018. They will get transitional protection.
The second way is by what is slightly oddly called “natural migration”. This happens when someone who is getting tax credits has a change in circumstances and is forced by the department to move across to universal credit. We now know that this can happen through all kinds of changes, some of which were alluded to by the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor: if someone loses their job; has a baby or adopts a child; if a lone parents gets remarried or repartnered; if a couple splits up; if someone becomes a carer or ceases to be a carer; or even, slightly oddly, if a lone parent’s child reaches the age of five.
As I understand it, in all of those circumstances and indeed in more, a tax credit recipient will be forced on to universal credit and overnight could see their entitlement fall by up to £3,000 a year. Can the Minister confirm that that is the case? Further, can he tell the House whether any transitional protection will be forthcoming for the group of people in the category called “natural migration”? How many people does his department anticipate will be in that position during the first year of the new work allowance regime? We have a problem of transition and a problem of seriously damaged work incentives. Above all, there is an unacceptable lack of clarity about the impact on low-income working families.
I should probably have declared an interest as I was an adviser to Gordon Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer when tax credits were invented. He hired me away from the single-parent charity where I was toiling to support him in trying to work out what to do about the fact that we had the second-highest child poverty rate in the developed world. Child poverty had trebled under the previous Tory Government. We also had significant problems around lone parents not working. I worked with Gordon Brown to work out
how the Government should tackle what was then a very low rate of single-parent employment. Tax credits made a massive difference. They helped to lift millions of British children out of poverty and led to the most dramatic rise I know of in the proportion of single parents in work. To see this Government damage work incentives that were so hard won breaks my heart.
I fully accept that the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, truly cares about the plight of working families, but I do not think that those families are helped by leading them to believe that this House can do things for them that it cannot do. It is clear to me, and I am sure it is really clear to Liberal Democrat Peers—I understand that we have to go with the politics of the age—that there is a distinction between opposing something and feeling that this House should vote it down. I oppose this entire Bill, but I did not vote against it at Second Reading because as a revising Chamber it is not our place to do so. As I say, we are a revising Chamber, and, if that is the case, we should do our job properly.
Rather than using primary legislation retrospectively to repeal regulations which have only recently passed through both Houses of Parliament, and are not even regulations flowing from this Bill, let us focus instead on taking appropriate action to hold the Executive to account. Let us not let the Government off the hook by playing politics with this issue. Let us not pretend that we all take the same view on tactics, but that does not mean we have different views on substance.
I understand that during the tax credits debate, the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, wanted to run a fatal Motion against all the conventions of the House. We did not back that; we backed my noble friend Lady Hollis in running a delay Motion which had exactly the right result but in an appropriate constitutional manner. That is the position we are in today. The Chancellor’s cuts are going to do significant damage to working families in Britain. Those people and this House have a right to know what that damage is. That is what we are pushing for today and that is what we on these Benches will be voting for.
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Baroness Hollis of Heigham: My Lords, all of us in the House supported universal credit and we all recognised the absolutely key role played by the noble Lord, Lord Freud, in seeking to deliver it. Why have those of us who worked on tax credits—my noble friend in the Treasury and myself as the Minister taking the tax credits Bills through this House—none the less gone on to support universal credit? It was because tax credits did make work pay, they transformed lives, and we were and indeed are proud of them.
But, first, without real-time information, we could not keep pace with the changes of circumstance. Half of all lone parents experienced more than a dozen changes of circumstance every year, and the computers never caught up. We had to have end-of-year adjustments and we had the sadness of trying to recover overpayments from people who could ill afford to make them. Secondly, as has been said, we absolutely needed to simplify the benefits system so that people would know what they were entitled to. Finally, tax credits were rightly built on a work model, and work was defined as 16 hours a
week. However, we know that for many lone parents a job for fewer than 16 hours a week, a mini job, is the pathway into work. Instead of the cliff-edge of 16 hours, we supported the principle that the noble Lord enunciated in universal credit of a ladder up from mini jobs right on into full-time work. Over some 17 long Committee days, we supported the noble Lord on universal credit.
The architecture of universal credit remains, but to repeat the image of the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, the key driver of making work pay is being shrivelled by the cuts, slice after slice. My heart goes out to the Minister because he must hate it. But, of course, he cannot possibly comment. Instead of universal credit being more supportive than tax credits, which is where we came from in helping people into work, as my noble friend Lady Sherlock has said, increasingly the opposite is now true.
Yes, last autumn we protected existing families on tax credits—not new claimants—from cuts to their existing income, given the commitments made on all sides during the general election. The Chancellor accepted that as people move from tax credits to UC as part of the migration timeline, they should not be worse off simply by virtue of that administrative change. It was the right thing to do and I believe that everyone in the House, including of course the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, who was so key to this, was delighted by the move.
However, as my noble friend has said, such transitional protection may not cover situations where there has been a recognised, formal change of circumstance which, as it stands, could bring existing tax credits families immediately into UC over and beyond the migration timeframe, and at that point they will experience cuts in UC. I want the Minister to help us by clarifying the situation. What will take a person who is on tax credits now, who is not part of the planned timeline, into UC and thus experiencing immediate cuts? The reason it is uncertain is that at the moment, certain changes with tax credits must rightly be formally reported to HMRC. As my noble friend set out, that must be done when a lone parent becomes part of a couple or the couple breaks up, when there is another child or a child leaves school, and when hours of work or income change, or childcare costs change—for example, during the summer holidays. And, of course, tax credits rates are now and should continue to be properly adjusted to reflect those natural changes in circumstance. However, will such changes of circumstance, which would bring about a change in tax credits, now instead be a trigger on to UC, at which point families will find themselves caught by the UC cuts, or will they remain outside it? Or does this apply only when the tax credit claims have completely ended, so that no tax credits are in payment? For example, if a lone parent has repartnered and her partner’s income floats them off tax credits altogether and then, say, a year on, sadly, he moves out and she needs to make a fresh new claim, will that fresh claim be under tax credit rules or the more oppressive universal credit rules?
If the oppressive universal credit rules apply, will there none the less be a linking rule—as in the past with a well-established principle for disability benefits—so that within six months, or certainly a year, a new claim
is regarded as a resumption of the old claim? In other words, the lone parent remains de facto on tax credits with the protection that that carries when, by the natural time migration, she moves over to UC. I apologise to your Lordships for being quite nerdish about this, but it is essential that the Minister clarify the position for us, which I am sure he will.
Finally, we supported UC over tax credits above all to incentivise people into work. My noble friend has spelt out the additional resource that the Minister was able to achieve to incentivise people into work, especially those more marginal to the labour market, by allowing them to keep more of what they earnt. We all thought that that was the right thing to do. Several years back, the Minister was absolutely right, while criticising tax credits because of the multiplicity of interlocking benefits, when he said that there was a high rate of benefit withdrawal—that is, the taper—which meant that some working people kept only pennies in the pound for every hour that they worked. Therefore, they did not.
However, although the universal credit regulations do not change the taper, in many cases they essentially halve the work allowance which can be earnt before the taper kicks in for many, and they withdraw it in its entirety for some. Therefore, cuts will affect people who come on to universal credit after April 2016. The cut in the standard work allowance for a lone parent working mother, from more than £8,000 to £4,764, means that she will lose half. Effectively, she will lose £2,628 a year by being on universal credit, which she would not if the work allowance had not been halved. Couple families with one partner with limited capacity to work because of disability will lose around £3,000. Single people will lose it altogether. Hence, this amendment.
I am concerned, as are my noble friend and others on our Benches, about the impact of these proposed cuts within universal credit, as we all are about work incentives. We need evidence. The Minister respects evidence. If it is not there it needs to be collected. If it is, I am sure the Minister would want us to address any problems that may arise. My fear is that universal credit, instead of encouraging people into work, will begin to disincentivise them. But I do not know, which is why, as my noble friend has argued, we need that report to determine how, where and with what severity those cuts will fall, and on whom. In particular, how will they affect the key significance of universal credit: to improve work incentives and, as we all wish, to make work pay?
Without improving work incentives, universal credit has lost its moral argument and becomes instead, I fear, a mere administrative tidying up of the current benefit system, with the added risk that we are already beginning to see of repeated cuts. There would be much upheaval for no gain for many claimants, and real, if potential, losses for many more. I hope that I am wrong but we need to know. Such a report would tell us and, if my noble friend chooses to put this to a vote, I hope this House will support her.
Lord Freud: Before I start, I acknowledge my appreciation for what Peers are saying. This is not an attack on universal credit. They are some of its greatest fans and it is in that context that they speak. I absolutely get that and I appreciate it. It has reminded me that
I owe regular updates about progress of universal credit and has jogged me to get going on that as soon as this Bill is over.
The amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, seeks to repeal the work allowance regulations. I am going to sound like the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. This measure has been debated and voted on twice in the other place, and both times these regulations have been retained. Therefore, this House should think carefully about using a Bill such as this to introduce opposition to a financial measure that has seen that kind of support in another place.
On the amendment, let me remind noble Lords of the context of those changes. The previous welfare system was not working. Spending went up from £6 billion in 1998 to £28 billion in 2010, when we reached the stage where nine in 10 families with children were eligible for tax credits. Some families could earn £60,000 a year and still receive benefits. Yet, at the same time, the number of people in in-work poverty increased by about 20%. It also did not do enough to support people to get into work, stay in work, and progress in work. People were left with unfulfilled potential and did not have an incentive to progress. Even if we forget the money, it undermined opportunity and aspiration due to the distortions and complexities of the system.
The Government have stated their intention to move from a low-wage, high-tax, high-welfare society to a high-wage, low-tax, low-welfare economy and have set out a package of measures. Let me remind noble Lords that the national living wage is set to reach over £9 an hour by 2020 and the personal tax allowance is set to rise to £11,000 in 2016-17, taking 570,000 more people out of income tax. I remember some debates about increasing support for childcare and we have moved it up to a rate of 85% of eligible costs. We have doubled the early years’ provision, which is free for the working parents of three to four year-olds. When one looks at the whole of childcare, we now spend £5 billion in total across all the schemes, including UC, tax credits and the early years’ provisions, which is more than any previous Administration. Since 2010, there has been an increase of £1 billion.
To respond to the noble Baroness, Lady Manzoor, the measure is different from the tax credit cuts. Universal credit provides an incentive to making work pay and helps to move people off a life on benefits. They get personalised support through a dedicated work coach which helps them through the barriers. It is a different structure. It is not the same thing as the reduction in tax credits. Clearly, we have two elements; namely, the work allowance and the taper rate. We have already got evidence that it works and gets people into work much more effectively than jobseeker’s allowance. Apart from the savings we will achieve on taxpayers’ money, it will generate—partly by focusing the money more efficiently on the people who need it most—gross economic benefits of £7 billion every year once it is fully in.
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I remind noble Lords that if Amendment 45 were to go through it would mean, once universal credit is fully rolled out, significant costs of the order of £3 billion
a year having to be found from elsewhere. The debate we had in the House around this was that tax credits were coming in abruptly in April when the countervailing factors had not come in—the living wage, tax allowances and childcare. A large number of noble Lords talked about that mismatch. The Chancellor’s response was to delay: he took away the tax credits cuts and smoothed the transition in two ways. First, he moved it to the timing of universal credit, where we had these large changes happening and large moves across in 2018, 2019 and 2020, when some of these changes come through. Of course, there is also transitional relief for people moving straight across. I will come to some of the issues raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, on that.
There will not be tax losers. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, who I know is the greatest fan and has a spy network that should be dismantled, that his figures showing that 96,000 people would be worse off in April 2016 are not accurate in the context of these universal credit changes. The vast majority of the current universal credit caseload will not lose. It affects only people in work, most of whom are single or childless couples with no limited capability for work.
We will have additional support for those directly impacted. They have fewer barriers limiting their ability to respond positively to increase their hours and earnings. We will provide additional work coach support and increasing the amount available through flexible support to help people progress in work and increase their earnings.
Concerns about natural migration have been raised in the media and, indeed, inside the House, in particular just now by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. Significant changes of circumstance have always caused changes in entitlements in the benefit system. The impact of moving to universal credit needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis and depends on a large number of factors. The changes that would cause a new claim are the same as in the current system. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, asked a large number of specific questions, I will write to her spelling out the answers. However, universal credit continues to have its core architecture and incentives: the single taper rate remains set at 65% and claimants no longer need to move between different systems just because their hours and earnings change. It continues to provide real support.
Amendment 46A would introduce a requirement for the Government to produce a report assessing the impact of these regulations on work incentives. As I said earlier, the work allowances are just one element of a system designed to produce incentives to move people into work and then progress in work. It is one element of a wider package of measures introduced in the summer Budget designed to move us from the low-pay, high-welfare, high-tax economy to the opposite.
When someone moves to universal credit as a result of a change of circumstances, they will not experience the impact of the work allowances in isolation. They will see all the impacts of the universal credit design, which is already helping people move into work faster. They will have better support from their work coach, clear incentives to increase their hours and more generous support for childcare. It is worth reiterating the point
that those claimants who are moved by the DWP from tax credits to universal credit will be transitionally protected.
While it may be technically possible to evaluate the impacts on different claimant groups in the way Amendment 46A sets out, it is not practically possible. It is extremely difficult to single out the effect of any one measure when many other things have been changed at the same time. To do so would be resource and time intensive—and, bluntly, ludicrously expensive—but the department is committed to evaluating the impacts of introducing universal credit as a whole and I am happy to repeat that commitment. I think many noble Lords know how intensely I require the department to get this kind of evidence.
We published plans for evaluating universal credit in 2012. We have already started publishing evaluation reports. Indeed, they show very positive impacts. In 2015, we published the latest results from our analysis of UC impact on employment and earnings, which showed that universal credit claimants are eight percentage points more likely to have been employed in the first nine months than their JSA equivalents. If noble Lords do not like percentage points, that is the equivalent of it being 13% more likely: for every 100 JSA claimants who found work in that period, 113 UC claimants did the same. This is very dramatic for the early introduction of a new benefit where one does not quite know what one is doing. We expect it to go on. We will be able to monitor in the same way in the years to come.
Are we seeing the disincentive that the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, is so concerned about? I am so concerned. We will see it. If you see some deterioration there and understand it, it is valuable information. As noble Lords know, I introduced a measure to allow us to do some really sophisticated econometric assessments: what is the dynamic effect, for instance, of tapers, of work allowances, of second work allowances and all the things we are interested in? We can test all that for the first time. That is the context in which this amendment is coming in. We will publish further research and update our formal evaluation on labour market outcomes later this year, and we will go on doing that in future years. That will cover a widening group of claimant types.
As your Lordships know, we need to learn from all the evidence that we get to find out the best operational delivery and the best future policy development. This is what we have dubbed the “test and learn” approach, which I am proud to say has been adopted almost as government policy. That is how we are going to do things.
I ask noble Lords to accept that this is the right way to do these assessments. One will see from that all the information that it is possible to find. One does not need something that, frankly, I cannot ask people to do, because it is just not practical. It is not realistic to do what has been asked for in Amendment 46A. It is for that reason, and not because I am against information, that I ask the noble Baronesses not to press that amendment.
Baroness Manzoor: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response, which was very considered. I also thank my noble friends Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope
and Lord Oates for supporting me on this amendment. I understand clearly the argument that the Front Bench has put forward and I get the argument because, like the Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, I am very interested in evidence-based decision-making. As a relative newcomer to this House, I sometimes think that we put the cart before the horse, as we saw earlier on when the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, spoke in relation to another amendment—let us do something and then see what the effects are afterwards. But we are talking about real people with real lives, not just figures to be moved around in the budget. These cuts will have an impact on those people’s lives.
I said earlier at Second Reading, a long time ago it seems, that we on these Benches are looking at the Welfare Reform and Work Bill through the prism of work; that is what is really important to us. It is about getting more and more people off benefits and into long-term, sustainable, well-paid work—that is the purpose of this. I do not feel that, as it currently stands, this will be achieved. I have articulated not my figures, but figures from respected bodies, which have indicated what the impact of this cut to universal credit work allowance will be.
I say, again, to all noble Lords on all sides of the House, this amendment is different. It is not like the amendment on tax credits, where there was an issue about constitutional matters—though I took wide advice before I put down my fatal amendment and noble Lords will know that I did not speak in the debate that the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde had; I have immense respect for him—this is something that will affect people’s lives. As I said, 2.6 million individuals are going to be affected. We cannot have this inconsistency in our approach. I passionately believe in consistency and I passionately believe in equality and fairness and this will not allow that to happen. We will see two sets of people who are in very similar or indeed identical circumstances being paid different rates of benefit. That cannot be right. I really do not want to be seen as a rebel in this House, as somebody has called me; that is certainly not my intention. But, for me, this is the principle of the matter and it is on that basis that I beg leave to test the opinion of the House.
7.42 pm
Contents 91; Not-Contents 202.
CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Allan of Hallam, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, B.
Barker, B.
Beith, L.
Benjamin, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Bowles of Berkhamsted, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Brinton, B.
Bruce of Bennachie, L.
Burnett, L.
Burt of Solihull, B.
Campbell of Pittenweem, L.
Chidgey, L.
Clancarty, E.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cotter, L.
Curry of Kirkharle, L.
Dholakia, L.
Doocey, B.
Eames, L.
Featherstone, B.
Foster of Bath, L.
Fox, L.
Garden of Frognal, B.
German, L.
Greaves, L.
Grender, B.
Grey-Thompson, B.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Haskins, L.
Humphreys, B. [Teller]
Hussain, L.
Hussein-Ece, B.
Janke, B.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Kerr of Kinlochard, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Kramer, B.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Loomba, L.
Ludford, B.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Manzoor, B.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Newby, L. [Teller]
Northover, B.
Oates, L.
Oxford and Asquith, E.
Paddick, L.
Palmer of Childs Hill, L.
Pinnock, B.
Purvis of Tweed, L.
Randerson, B.
Razzall, L.
Rennard, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sharkey, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheehan, B.
Shipley, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Newnham, B.
Somerset, D.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stephen, L.
Stoneham of Droxford, L.
Storey, L.
Strasburger, L.
Stunell, L.
Suttie, B.
Taverne, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Tope, L.
Tyler, L.
Tyler of Enfield, B.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Wigley, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willis of Knaresborough, L.
NOT CONTENTS
Ahmad of Wimbledon, L.
Altmann, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arbuthnot of Edrom, L.
Arran, E.
Ashton of Hyde, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Balfe, L.
Bamford, L.
Barker of Battle, L.
Bates, L.
Berridge, B.
Bilimoria, L.
Black of Brentwood, L.
Borwick, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bourne of Aberystwyth, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brady, B.
Bridges of Headley, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Caithness, E.
Carrington of Fulham, L.
Cathcart, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chisholm of Owlpen, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cooper of Windrush, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cormack, L.
Courtown, E.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dannatt, L.
De Mauley, L.
Deben, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dunlop, L.
Dykes, L.
Eaton, B.
Eccles, V.
Elton, L.
Evans of Bowes Park, B.
Fall, B.
Farmer, L.
Faulks, L.
Feldman of Elstree, L.
Fink, L.
Finkelstein, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Finn, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Framlingham, L.
Freeman, L.
Freud, L.
Gardiner of Kimble, L. [Teller]
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilbert of Panteg, L.
Goodlad, L.
Goschen, V.
Grade of Yarmouth, L.
Green of Hurstpierpoint, L.
Greenway, L.
Hailsham, V.
Harding of Winscombe, B.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayward, L.
Helic, B.
Henley, L.
Heyhoe Flint, B.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Abinger, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holmes of Richmond, L.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Horam, L.
Howard of Lympne, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
Jenkin of Kennington, B.
Jopling, L.
Keen of Elie, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane-Fox of Soho, B.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lansley, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Leigh of Hurley, L.
Lexden, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lingfield, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livingston of Parkhead, L.
Lothian, M.
Lupton, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McGregor-Smith, B.
McIntosh of Pickering, B.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Magan of Castletown, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mawhinney, L.
Mawson, L.
Meacher, B.
Mobarik, B.
Mone, B.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Nash, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Newlove, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Loan, B.
O'Neill of Gatley, L.
O'Shaughnessy, L.
Pannick, L.
Patel, L.
Patten of Barnes, L.
Pidding, B.
Plumb, L.
Polak, L.
Popat, L.
Porter of Spalding, L.
Prior of Brampton, L.
Redfern, B.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Ridley, V.
Risby, L.
Robathan, L.
Rock, B.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Bletso, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sassoon, L.
Scott of Bybrook, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Shackleton of Belgravia, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheikh, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Sherbourne of Didsbury, L.
Shields, B.
Shinkwin, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Smith of Hindhead, L.
Stedman-Scott, B.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Stowell of Beeston, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Stroud, B.
Suri, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L. [Teller]
Tebbit, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trimble, L.
True, L.
Truscott, L.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Wakeham, L.
Walpole, L.
Warsi, B.
Wasserman, L.
Wellington, D.
Wheatcroft, B.
Whitby, L.
Willetts, L.
Williams of Trafford, B.
Young of Cookham, L.
Younger of Leckie, V.
7.54 pm
Amendment 46 had been retabled as Amendment 82A.
(1) Within one year of the coming into effect of the Universal Credit (Work Allowance) Amendment Regulations 2015, the Secretary of State shall publish, and lay before each House of Parliament, a report assessing the impact of those Regulations on work incentives.
(2) The report prepared under subsection (1) must contain data analysis of—
(a) income and hours worked, by household type, and
(b) the impact of the regulations on the levels of awards of in-work support payable to claimants who have moved from tax credits to universal credit as a result of a change of circumstances, or claimants who will move from tax credits to universal credit as a result of a change of circumstances before 2018.”
Baroness Sherlock: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his commitment to evaluation, but I regret that it is not enough. I therefore wish to test the opinion of the House.
7.55 pm
Contents 113; Not-Contents 190.
CONTENTS
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Andrews, B.
Bach, L.
Bakewell, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L. [Teller]
Beecham, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blunkett, L.
Boateng, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Cashman, L.
Chandos, V.
Clancarty, E.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Collins of Highbury, L.
Corston, B.
Darling of Roulanish, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Donaghy, B.
Drake, B.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grocott, L.
Hain, L.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Hanworth, V.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskins, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayter of Kentish Town, B.
Healy of Primrose Hill, B.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jones, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of Cradley, B.
Kennedy of Southwark, L.
Kerslake, L.
King of Bow, B.
Kirkhill, L.
Lawrence of Clarendon, B.
Layard, L.
Liddle, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lister of Burtersett, B.
Livermore, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
McAvoy, L.
McFall of Alcluith, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Maxton, L.
Meacher, B.
Monks, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Murphy of Torfaen, L.
Nye, B.
O'Loan, B.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rebuck, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sherlock, B.
Smith of Basildon, B.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Stevenson of Balmacara, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller]
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watts, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigley, L.
Wood of Anfield, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.
NOT CONTENTS
Ahmad of Wimbledon, L.
Altmann, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arbuthnot of Edrom, L.
Ashton of Hyde, L.
Attlee, E.
Balfe, L.
Bamford, L.
Barker of Battle, L.
Bates, L.
Berridge, B.
Borwick, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bourne of Aberystwyth, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Brady, B.
Bridges of Headley, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Caithness, E.
Carrington of Fulham, L.
Cathcart, E.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chisholm of Owlpen, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cooper of Windrush, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cormack, L.
Courtown, E.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Curry of Kirkharle, L.
Dannatt, L.
De Mauley, L.
Deben, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dunlop, L.
Dykes, L.
Eaton, B.
Eccles, V.
Elton, L.
Evans of Bowes Park, B.
Fall, B.
Farmer, L.
Faulks, L.
Feldman of Elstree, L.
Fink, L.
Finkelstein, L.
Finn, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Framlingham, L.
Freeman, L.
Freud, L.
Gardiner of Kimble, L. [Teller]
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilbert of Panteg, L.
Goodlad, L.
Goschen, V.
Grade of Yarmouth, L.
Green of Hurstpierpoint, L.
Greenway, L.
Hailsham, V.
Harding of Winscombe, B.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayward, L.
Helic, B.
Henley, L.
Heyhoe Flint, B.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Abinger, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holmes of Richmond, L.
Home, E.
Hooper, B.
Hope of Craighead, L.
Horam, L.
Howard of Lympne, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howe, E.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
Jenkin of Kennington, B.
Jopling, L.
Keen of Elie, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane-Fox of Soho, B.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lansley, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Leigh of Hurley, L.
Lexden, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lingfield, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livingston of Parkhead, L.
Lothian, M.
Lupton, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McGregor-Smith, B.
McIntosh of Pickering, B.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Magan of Castletown, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L.
Mawhinney, L.
Mawson, L.
Mobarik, B.
Mone, B.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Nash, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Newlove, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Gatley, L.
O'Shaughnessy, L.
Pannick, L.
Patel, L.
Patten of Barnes, L.
Pidding, B.
Plumb, L.
Polak, L.
Popat, L.
Porter of Spalding, L.
Prior of Brampton, L.
Redfern, B.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Ridley, V.
Risby, L.
Robathan, L.
Rock, B.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Bletso, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sassoon, L.
Scott of Bybrook, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Shackleton of Belgravia, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheikh, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Sherbourne of Didsbury, L.
Shields, B.
Shinkwin, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Smith of Hindhead, L.
Stedman-Scott, B.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Stowell of Beeston, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Stroud, B.
Suri, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L. [Teller]
Tebbit, L.
Trefgarne, L.
True, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Wakeham, L.
Warsi, B.
Wasserman, L.
Wellington, D.
Wheatcroft, B.
Whitby, L.
Willetts, L.
Williams of Trafford, B.
Young of Cookham, L.
Younger of Leckie, V.
Consideration on Report adjourned until not before 9.06 pm.
House of Lords: Press Office
Question for Short Debate
8.07 pm
Asked by Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
To ask the Chairman of Committees whether there are any plans to appoint a unit within the House of Lords Press Office to promote proactively and apolitically the role and work of the House of Lords.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con): My Lords, we have just concluded a session during which there has been, in the elegant phrase of diplomats, “a frank exchange of views”. But I hope noble Lords will forgive me if I ask that, for the next hour at least, we leave our party-political weapons at the door. If this is not possible, the underlying reason for raising this issue, which is the need to underpin the reputation of the House as a legislative institution, will be lost.
This Question is not about Governments, Oppositions or Cross-Benchers seeking party-political advantage. It is about seeking ways to ensure that your Lordships’ House as an institution is seen by the general public in as balanced and unbiased way as possible. A political life can be tough—it can be bruising—and that is as it should be because important issues and the future of
our country are at stake. Some of that bruising is bound to be felt in an institution in which such arguments are played out—so be it. But my concern is the rising number of snide, unfounded and unhelpful articles about your Lordships’ House that are quite unconnected with our legislative activities.
There appears to be no person or body within the House empowered to correct the facts and, above all, to correct them the very day they appear. The key words in my Question are, therefore, “proactively” and “apolitically”. That this is an issue which has touched a chord I think is shown by the fact that 14 noble Lords, drawn from all parts of the House, put their names down to speak, and I greatly look forward to hearing their views over the next hour.
As I said, my concern is with the steady trickle of articles that put an entirely unfavourable and inaccurate construction on matters concerning the House. Let me run through a few examples. On Monday 8 December 2014, the Guardian ran an article under the headline, “Champagne wars in the Lords as peers say no to a cheaper vintage”. It claimed that your Lordships’ House had refused to serve the same champagne as the House of Commons on account of its inferior quality, that over the past five years £265,000 had been spent buying 17,000 bottles of champagne and that this was equivalent to five bottles of “bubbly”—as they put it—for each Peer per annum.
By Wednesday 10 December, two days later, the Times was repeating the claim, though under a different headline—this time, “Is the House of Lords on a suicide mission?”—and increasing the number of bottles that were being drunk by each Member to 20. By Saturday, the Economist had climbed on the bandwagon under a headline, “A tizz about fizz”, again repeating the allegation about champagne consumption but, rather unattractively on this occasion, linking it to the powers of your Lordships’ House to block and delay legislation, implying that we do so in a champagne-sozzled condition, while at the same time claiming £300 per day, as the Economist put it, “just for showing up”.
On the Friday, too late to correct any of the above, a letter was published in the Times from the Chairman of Committees. He pointed out:
“In the last financial year, 57 per cent of all champagne sold was in connection with receptions and dinners … and 30 per cent through our giftshop. All alcohol sold in the Lords is sold at a profit, which has helped to reduce the cost of the catering service by 27 per cent since 2007”—
and that the proposal to merge the two Houses’ champagne service was a 10 year-old story.
There was nothing wrong with the content of that letter, just its timing. A delay of four or five days between the original article and the rebuttal gave time for the story not only to get legs but also to expand in ways that frankly were still more unfavourable to the reputation of the House.
Lest noble Lords think that this is an isolated example, in September 2015 the Constitution Unit at University College London published a piece entitled, “The Lords’ declining reputation: the evidence”, and, in the excellent note produced by the Library as a background briefing for this debate, there is a table showing a similar, rather discouraging trend.
Finally, just before Christmas, a further set of allegations was made about the travel arrangements and costs thereof of the Lord Speaker. I understand that in several respects these were inaccurate or misleading: for example, excessive car waiting time for the Lord Speaker during her attendance at functions when security arrangements at the function required the clearance of each car.
Some noble Lords may argue that this is the way of the world and that there is nothing to be done about it. In the memorable phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Birt, we risk throwing another log on the fire. The noble Lord is of course vastly more experienced in the ways of the media than I am and I have to respect his view, although I also have to point out that it seems to me that, another log or not, the fire is blazing pretty merrily right now.
Your Lordships’ House has an excellent press office. I do not want what I have said and what I am about to say to be seen as a criticism of it. Its primary role has been to undertake planned press and other publicity linked to the reports being published by the various committees of the House or to its general activities. It is not set up to provide what one might call “rapid rebuttal activity”. I see three broad strands to what this work might entail: first, to say to a journalist or, where necessary, an editor, “This article is factually wrong, please correct it forthwith”; secondly, to offer journalists planning to write about your Lordships’ House a facility for the checking of facts; and, thirdly, to provide for journalists on quiet news days human interest or apolitical stories about the work of the House. This will be a role for a senior individual experienced in press or public relations. He or she would need clear lines of authority and responsibility to be able to carry out this sensitive and demanding task, for which it will be absolutely essential that there is whole-hearted cross-party support.
Several noble Lords, speaking to me ahead of this debate, remarked that such clear lines of authority and responsibility will never be established because there are several parties who will consider this to be their sole prerogative. Such high diplomacy is some way above my pay grade as a humble Back-Bencher. All I would say is that each one of us has been privileged to be appointed to this House and I hope that if there are issues of this sort about sovereignty, they can be reconciled in the greater interest of preserving and enhancing the reputation of this great institution that we are all proud to serve.
Of course, we can go on as we are. My fear is not that such an appointment would lead to more logs on the fire; rather, that if it is not made, the flames of misreporting and consequent mistrust and misunderstanding of your Lordships’ House as an institution of Parliament will become increasingly hot and uncomfortable. I beg to move.
8.14 pm
Baroness Donaghy (Lab): My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, for initiating this debate. I chair the House of Lords Information Committee and we spend a considerable amount of our time promoting and encouraging communications about the work of this House.
I pay tribute to our staff in the press and media area, who provide a 24-hour service in quite difficult circumstances. Why are they difficult? The department provides factual information and rebuttals but cannot—and probably never will—comment on anything that could be regarded as party-political or taking one side or another of a debate; for instance, on the size of the House or on tax credits.
As a self-regulating House, one could argue that no one is in charge or that everyone is in charge. We have the Lord Speaker, the Leader of the House and the Chairman of Committees, as well as the leaders of other groups. If we were to decide to have one spokesperson, they would still need professional assistance and it would require a change in our governance.
What is clear from the excellent briefing provided by the Library is that the work of Select Committees, which can cross party lines, receives enormously positive feedback from the public. The press and media team is able to be much more proactive in this area and the growth of social media coverage is very helpful in showing the positive side of the work that we do.
By far the best advocates for this House are its Members. The reputation of the House depends almost completely on its Members, for good or bad. Nothing beats that personal engagement, whether it relates to work in the House or outreach duties.
The staff work very hard to reach out to people about our work through broadcasting, education, archives, and the work of Parliament and its history. Any perception that they had strayed into the political world would, I am sure, be resisted. But all suggestions made by noble Lords this evening will be very welcome and, I am sure, will be considered by the Information Committee.
8.17 pm
Lord Selsdon (Con): My Lords, I find myself in a difficult situation because for part of my career I was a director of a company called Research Services Ltd, which did the National Readership Survey, which was used as a basis for advertising and all forms of communication. Mark Abrams—slightly to the left of myself—was our guru, and I found myself also involved in the race relations study. Therefore, I have a love of information and data, particularly about your Lordships’ House.
The difficulty I have found with the press department, which I spoke to earlier today, is that its hands are tied. I said, “Well, whose hands are not tied?”. “My Lord, your hands are not tied”. “If you were me, what would you provide me with as a list of those people we should communicate with?”. “My Lord, you may have some suggestions to make”. I made certain suggestions and a list was produced that I would possibly be able to circulate to your Lordships, with emails, telephones—direct things—for 127 journalists, who, when I have introduced a Bill, have effectively become friends because only Peers can talk to the press. I find this very strange and I am not sure how it could be changed in any way, but people are waiting for stories. They can be written by anyone. You have to spend only a moment in the Bishops’ Bar and you have a new story.
On occasions, I made a few mistakes. I made a suggestion that we should possibly look at consulting with the Australians before we had the referendum relating to Scotland because there were 54 million Scots worldwide. To my horror, a journalist called me the next day, saying, “You are front page of the Sunday Post in Scotland: ‘Lord Selsdon says Obama is Scottish’”, because in Scotland you take your seeds, as it were, through the female line.
There are so many stories that we could write about this place and we have so many would-be journalists and writers and preparers of speeches. Therefore, I feel that we should ask ourselves to solve the problem.
8.19 pm
The Earl of Sandwich (CB): My Lords, I was in the press office of a major charity for more than 12 years in the 1970s. It was not easy. The charity, Christian Aid, was constantly being accused of siding with refugees in southern Africa and victims of apartheid. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is absolutely right to raise the subject at this critical time because the House has run the gauntlet of the worst of old Fleet Street and more recently, as he said, the Lord Speaker has personally come under fire, quite unjustly and with very little opportunity to reply.
I had not appreciated the extent of negative coverage until I saw the July-September figures. The press and media team seems to be coping admirably but has only three full-time staff working 24/7, while the House of Commons Media Service has many more. Arguably, the Lords has had a rougher time than the Commons since the expenses scandals. I suspect that the House will have to make at least one additional appointment now, until a major review is undertaken. The website of that other Lord’s press office, at the MCC, has a snappier style and a lot more people dealing with digital media but I am certain that this Lords press office has much more trouble.
I congratulate the press office on its success in promoting the EU Committee’s reports. I have direct knowledge of the Russia and Ukraine report last February, which generated huge publicity. But who is calling the shots? In a House dominated by political parties, all with their own agenda, it is virtually impossible to provide the media with a single version of events. I think that there must be a group of media-aware Peers with recognised responsibility for answering for the House as a whole. But from a press office point of view, it would be helpful to have a more focused message from one central point. I do not advocate the Lord Speaker’s office taking on this role, as some have suggested, unless and until the role of the Lord Speaker is redefined.
8.21 pm
Lord Norton of Louth (Con): My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Hodgson on raising this timely debate and endorse what he and other colleagues have said. In the time available, I want to raise a fundamental question, one already touched upon by the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich. It is fundamental to this House, this Parliament and indeed Parliaments generally.
If a crisis erupts affecting a company, there is a chairman or CEO who can speak for the company. Companies can, and good companies do, plan ahead in terms of crisis management. But what happens if a crisis hits the House of Lords? Who speaks for the House of Lords? Who speaks for Parliament? There is no one figure in a position to do so. That is why each House is always on the back foot if it is hit by a crisis. We cannot respond immediately and authoritatively, because there is no equivalent of a chairman or a company CEO. We need to beef up our excellent media team to be ready to respond but press officers can only inform. They can report and give information but they cannot be the face of Parliament or speak authoritatively for Parliament. That is the fundamental conundrum which we, as Members, need to address. We cannot hive off the responsibility; the sooner we address it, the better.
8.23 pm
Lord Lipsey (Lab): My Lords, any serious organisation takes the defence of its reputation seriously—that is, any serious organisation except this House. I will cite only one example. After one scandal—I cannot now remember whether it was over sex or drugs—it took more than two weeks while the Lord Speaker, the Leader of the House and the then Chairman of Committees argued about who should put out a statement. It was amateur night.
Four years ago, the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, kindly asked me to compile a short report on the problems, which I did. My principal recommendation, which I did not think was earth-shattering, was that an ad hoc group should be set up consisting of Peers with media and PR experience and staff of the House concerned with information to chew on the coming threats and responses to them, and generally to develop the promotion of the House. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, said yes, and moved on. The noble Lord, Lord Hill, at first said no, then maybe and then—mirabile dictu—yes. He also said that he would attend—except that he had to go to Brussels instead. The noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, with her usual courtesy said no. I do not know why this has proved so difficult. It was not much, was it? Someone, somewhere among the officials of the House seems to think that such a proposal would mean that officials were in some way getting involved in politics. I simply do not get it. I suppose that after 18 years in the House, I should by now understand that even when something about it is clearly broken, someone will find a good argument for not fixing it.
8.25 pm
Lord Sherbourne of Didsbury (Con): My Lords, I want to focus today on the world in which the House of Lords press office has to operate. The reality is that conventional media are in decline and social media are on the rise. There is a market for information and, in the days when newspapers often had 10 million readers, it was a sellers’ market. Today, people choose what information they want through their social media and it is a buyers’ market. People want information which is immediate, bite-sized and punchy, so what is it that propels a message? It is talkability and visibility.
By talkability, I mean: is the information or argument relevant and interesting, so that people want to talk about it and it engages them? A message then needs visibility, by which I mean: is it being relayed and disseminated widely across all the social media?
The challenge is what we have faced in our speeches today, with only two minutes per speech: we have to be disciplined in what we communicate and how we communicate. We have to make the message clear, focused and relevant and, as has been said, be very fleet of foot. We must use not only all the different social media but all the media.
8.26 pm
Lord St John of Bletso (CB): My Lords, I join in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, for introducing this short and very topical debate. I was a member of the Information Committee in 2009 when it had a report on the findings of the People and Parliament inquiry, which looked at how the House of Lords could improve public understanding of its work and role, as well as how the public could better interact with this House and Parliament. Thankfully, many of its recommendations have been taken up. There has certainly been an improvement through the information office in increasing the coverage of the role of your Lordships’ House through social media, including the Twitter and Facebook pages, as well as better coverage of some of the two and a half hour debates. Sadly, however, as everyone has mentioned, the press all too often revel in and focus on negative publicity about your Lordships’ House. Few of the public are aware of the enormous depth of expertise here or of the enormous amount of time spent in revising, examining and improving legislation.
The briefing pack for this short debate gave an excellent overview of the work and objectives of the press and media office, especially regarding your Lordships’ Select Committee reports, but there are clear limits as to what it can do to proactively publicise in an apolitical manner the progress of legislation. The press team have done their best with media rebuttals of unfair and inaccurate negative publicity about the work of your Lordships’ House and certain individuals in it. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, that we should have a specialist communications expert to be responsible for rapid rebuttals.
The Lord Speaker’s regional outreach programme is to be commended as well as the new parliamentary education centre launched last year, which takes between 500 and 600 visitors a day, mostly school groups and teachers, and provides 20 workshops a day. I want to make just one brief recommendation: that Select Committee chairmen should take a bigger role in becoming public spokesmen for their inquiries. We certainly need to become much more proactive.
8.28 pm
Lord Cormack (Con): My Lords, I am delighted that the Chairman of Committees is going to respond to this debate. No one is held in higher regard. He is the epitome of the great public servant and I hope that, following this debate, he will assemble a small group of your Lordships to discuss these issues and advise him as to how we can best project a positive
image. It is up to us. There will always be annoying stories about champagne and other things. You only have to go to Buckingham Palace at the moment to see the Rowlandson exhibition to find that we are not the first public servants to be the butt of cruel humour and salacious yarns.
This House is a very positive institution, but the trouble is that people out there do not understand it. I would even say that people down there, in another place, do not understand it. They do not fully appreciate what we do and why we do it, or what our role is. What we have to do—I hope with the aid of the Chairman of Committees—is to extend the Peers in Schools initiatives, so that we can go into all manner of institutions to try to explain what this House does.
The people who know most about politics, it is sometimes said, are the London taxi drivers. Well, some of them do, but in the last couple of months, I have had four or five who have brought me here and who have not had a clue what we do. When I have told them, they have been amazed and surprised. I have had two of them have tea with me in the House, and I think they went away with a very much more positive impression of this great institution—and it is a great institution. It is part of Parliament and is not going to be upended in the immediate future, so we have to project a positive image as often as we possibly can.
8.31 pm
Lord Empey (UUP): My Lords, I, too, serve on the Information Committee under the excellent chairmanship of the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy. The noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, is to be congratulated on securing this debate, because this cannot go on any longer. I know the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, said that we have been here before, but it is getting worse. We have not so far referred to the catastrophe that occurred last summer with the publicity surrounding the former Chairman of Committees. Enormous damage has been done, and the fact is that there was nobody able to come out straightaway. The champagne story is another very good example. Perhaps we could have a panel under the chairmanship of the Chairman of Committees, representative of the House, and have a spokesperson from that panel, appointed on a rota basis. Where agreement is sought but cannot be achieved, maybe we cannot move forward on a particular issue, but where there is consensus, there may be some need to go out and rebut. Although we appreciate the officials, the truth is that the media will want a Member of the House to speak to them. I hope that the Chairman of Committees, in his summing up, will address that and other issues.
The one thing I am absolutely clear about is that we cannot leave things as they are. The world is changing, our circumstances are changing, and we are being systematically undermined and ridiculed. Some of that is our own fault, but most of it is not, and we have to be prepared to fight our own corner. Nobody will pay any attention to us if we do not.
8.33 pm
Lord Farmer (Con): My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Empey, that in reputational terms the current situation is simply unacceptable and risks
unnecessary damage being done to a vital part of the parliamentary process. Caricatures abound of ermine-clad Peers swilling champagne and swanning around your Lordships’ house at the taxpayer’s expense. That may sell newspapers, but it does not give anything of the true facts. A highly distorted myth is relentlessly peddled of everyone with their snouts in the trough, greedily pocketing £300 a day for turning up.
I do not claim any recompense because I do not need to, and I suspect others take the same approach. However, some depend on the daily allowance to make ends meet because they give so much of their time. If this were made clear to the public, who of course pay garage and plumbers’ bills per hour or per day, they might think the daily fee is in fact rather modest and even inadequate, particularly if they understand that there are many Peers whose work here restricts their earning opportunities elsewhere. Crucially, however, if our contribution is to be considered worthy of public funding, the public need to value and understand the work we do. When I was in Brussels last year for the bicentenary of the Battle of Waterloo, various European officials I met were all of the opinion that the quality of the output from your Lordships’ House—reports and legislation—put all other secondary chambers they knew in the shade.
A proactive unit would, like a think tank, tweet and otherwise publicise whenever the Government accepted an idea or implemented a committee’s recommendation, so that the public would know they were funding a body that makes a difference. Charitable agendas are often championed by Members, so the profile of important national issues is raised and we begin to see cultural change in areas such as mental health, tackling domestic violence and myriad other good causes. There is so much to shout about, every day, that would actually encourage all who pay taxes, whether individuals or businesses, to see that they are in fact getting great value for money. We might even see public support for higher daily allowances—which I would endorse whole- heartedly, although that is a subject for another debate.
8.35 pm
Lord Oxburgh (CB): My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, for introducing this debate and the Information Office of the House for the enormous support it has given. It did a great deal of work, which time precludes my sharing with your Lordships.
Reputations are built up slowly and can be destroyed overnight. If we look back at the press coverage, we see that four or five years ago, positive and negative comments on the House were roughly evenly balanced. Since that time, we have had what we might describe as a triple whammy: the expenses scandal; the Sewel scandal; and, most recently, the so-called flooding of the House with 45 new Peers, which was not of our doing but was seen as our doing.
One must read the comments of that supportive and well-informed observer, Meg Russell, after the appointment of the new Peers:
“This has been a disastrous news week for the Lords. David Cameron’s appointment of an additional 45 new peers has met with universal media condemnation … As an Observer commentator
put it, ‘where is there left to go when Polly Toynbee of the
Guardian
and Quentin Letts in the
find themselves in perfect agreement?’”.
We have a problem on which we have to act. If we take no action, that will support those who want damaging rather than constructive reform of this House. That reform will be, if you like, riding on the crest of ill-informed populist sentiment. We have to take action.
8.37 pm
Lord Balfe (Con): My Lords, I add my congratulations to my noble friend Lord Hodgson on initiating this most timely debate. The problem we have is that we are now seen as a legitimate target by far too many people. I will make one or two suggestions as to what we have to face up to. The noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, put his finger on one of the problems: we have to change the governance of the House. If we want things to stay the same, they have to change, to quote someone else.
First, we have to have some sort of rebuttal unit. If something appears in the press which is wrong in fact, there must be someone here who is authorised to correct it. I am not talking about the politics of it but the sheer, straightforward facts. For it to take ages for three chairmen—the Leader of the House, the Chairman of Committees and the Speaker—to agree who should write a letter about champagne is just shambolic.
Secondly, we need a proper press cuttings service so that at least in the Library and online, your Lordships can see day to day what is being said. Thirdly, the political parties and the Cross Benches have to look at having a press service. There has to be a press officer in each one, so that if the rebuttal person is asked for a comment, they can say, “This is beyond my pay grade. Go to the party press office”. We must reach out. We must be much more flexible. That will require a change in governance, and we will have to face up to some problems.
I am reminded of the words from the Kipling poem,
“it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that”,
until you go to war. When the tax credits issue came up, we got an enormous amount of credit. Many people have come up to me about it, including one Conservative MP this week, who said, “You really did the right thing there”, although we were all whipped and did all in our power to defeat the opposition Motion. None the less, we can do things right, we must do things right and we have to shape the balance differently, but we will have to change.
8.39 pm
Lord Dykes (Non-Afl): I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, for initiating this debate and, incidentally, for speaking for less than the maximum time allotted to him, which was very noble and helped other speakers. I agree with virtually all the suggestions that have been made, in particular the rebuttal unit that the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, and others mentioned. We need the proper leadership of a very senior professional person recruited from outside—without making any criticism of the existing press office, which does a wonderful job within the current framework.
A very tough, brutal American politician of some 70 years ago is known for a famous quote. He said to his rather harassed wife, “Listen honey, I’m a politician, which means that when I’m not kissing babies, I am stealing their lollipops. Never forget it”. That may be a working definition of American politics but it does not bother us, because that is the Commons, that is the Government, and that is raising taxes. We do not have to do that. That is the built-in advantage of this House: that we can—and do—do good work through our wonderful Select Committees, on an elaborate scale; through marvellous work in revising Bills, which the Commons does not have time to do properly at all; and through examples such as tax credits recently, which the public did notice. Many other things can be done, but they have to be led by a senior person recruited from outside, after careful vetting of the candidate, to ensure that we can do this properly in future.
There are so many things that we need to explain. I am very glad that the Visitors’ Unit has started at the Education Centre. It is a very impressive building. If any Peers have not had the chance, I urge them to visit it, as the noble Lord, Lord St John of Bletso, said. We are increasing the number of visitors to this House per annum, and that will help, but we need clever outside journalistic types to talk to the journalists in the Lobby as well. The Lobby in the Commons is an estimable institution, but it does not have any interest in the House of Lords. We must correct that.
8.42 pm
Viscount Hailsham (Con): My Lords, my noble friend is to be congratulated for promoting this debate, but I hope that he will forgive me if I express a little anxiety about the particular solution. An apolitical and proactive unit sounds like an expensive unguided missile to me, and I would be cautious about it.
However, I share the great concern expressed in this House about the attacks on it. I have long thought that the second Chamber is of crucial importance to the functioning of the British constitution. That is as much to do with the deficiencies of the House of Commons as it is the excellence of what we do here. The public does not understand that. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, that one of the great counters that we should rely on is the quality of our work and the integrity of our Members, but we must respond to some of the concerns about composition, powers and numbers.
I have always supported an elected second Chamber. It will not happen, because the House of Commons will not wear it, but there are some things that we can do about numbers, for example. I know that a number of noble Lords have worked out a substantial package of proposals. I would not go down that road. I am not in favour of a “big bang” approach. There are too many potential turkeys, and such a Bill would be a Christmas tree on which every bauble is hung. I think we have to be a bit less ambitious. I would go for a few changes, starting now on numbers. I would have life peerages created for fixed terms. I would look at mandatory retirement, with suitable safeguards, and—dare I say it?—although I am conscious of the great cry of “Humbug!” that would rise up, I would also look
at the by-elections for hereditaries. These are modest measures, but we need to take some because public anxiety is great.
8.44 pm
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, for introducing this debate and reassure him that although I am speaking from the Front Bench, this is not a party-political issue. We are all in this together, to quote someone. This is a very good debate, although it is a bit curious that we are rather a male group and we have heard nothing from the Benches on my left, which is very surprising because they are usually quite hot on these issues. I will be interested to hear what the Chairman of Committees is going to say in response.
I will say three things about my feelings on this issue. First, I am not surprised we are getting a bad press. The Leveson report, which was legislated for in this Parliament, was supported unanimously by your Lordships’ House, so the House was bound to be hit by those who feel aggrieved by it. In some senses, I am surprised it is not worse. The noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, may have been overestimating the capacity for gossip in the Bishops’ Bar, but he is not far wrong about where stories could be found if people were seriously trying to bring this place down.
As my noble friend Lady Donaghy and others stressed, the staff we appointed to do the work we have asked them to do so far do a very good job, and we should compliment them on that, but if that is the case, what is the problem? It is the question that was asked in the middle of the debate about who actually speaks for the House of Lords. We need to have some answers on that. As my noble friend Lord Lipsey said, a serious organisation would make it a key priority to staff it so that a mechanism existed to preserve and enhance the reputation of this House and its work. That seems to be the issue before us today and, given the problems we face and the scale of change in communications in the external world, there is clearly a gap which needs to be filled.
8.46 pm
The Chairman of Committees (Lord Laming) (Non-Afl): My Lords, I very much welcome the opportunity to respond to this thought-provoking short debate on a matter that we all agree is of great importance to this House. I am most grateful to noble Lords for their thoughtful contributions and, in particular, I wish to add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, for securing this debate.
I hope that those who have contributed to the debate will have noticed that throughout I have been taking careful notes of the points that have been made because they have been well made and should be taken seriously. That being so, I hope that noble Lords will allow me to address some key themes rather than refer to individual comments. I hope I can end on something of an encouraging note because of the points that have been made this evening.
It has been very well said that communicating the role and work of the Lords is of great importance. The public must be enabled to know about the distinctive
role that this House plays as a second Chamber. Noble Lords will agree that this House has special and specific duties in scrutinising and amending legislation, inviting the Government to think again and debating public policy. In my view, the House carries out those functions very well. There must be no doubt that the House administration is committed to improving the communication of the work of the House and to engaging with the public as part of the strategic plan agreed by the House Committee and the management board.
This debate has reinforced the fact that we have a good story to tell. In that context, I hope that noble Lords have had a chance to read The Work of the House of Lords, which is updated each Session. Just as a headline, it explains how in the 2014-15 Session Members of this House examined in detail 68 Bills, considered 3,449 amendments, agreed 1,257 of them, asked the Government 6,394 Questions and produced no fewer than 27 investigative Select Committee reports.
This evening it is not possible to cover all aspects of the work undertaken by the Press Office, but it is engaged in a wide range of functions and seeks to promote the work of this House proactively and, as has already been mentioned, apolitically because that is necessary in its role. Members of the House will know that the Press Office operates at the interface between the House administration and the media and covers a wide range of the House’s activities, including balloted debates, Oral Questions and legislation.
In that connection, the staff go to great lengths to build good working relationships with journalists across the media in order to explain the House’s work. They conduct fact checks of media reports and respond as quickly as possible. Their work entails daily contact with journalists to provide factual information. However, the House will understand—and this has been touched upon this evening—that the staff are not free to offer their opinions.
The Press Office places a particular emphasis on Select Committee inquiries and reports. That is, of course, because those reports are agreed on a cross-party basis and are clearly of wider interest and extensively covered in the press. The office also provides media handling on issues that affect the reputation of the House.
That is not to say that more cannot be done. We are very conscious of the need to do as much as we can in this area, but I feel sure that colleagues will understand that there are limits to what an apolitical Information Office can do. For example, we all know that one party’s victory in this House is another party’s defeat. I feel sure the House will agree that knowing that the Information Office is promoting the House neutrally and apolitically is just as important as knowing, for example, that the Legislation Office offers the same level of apolitical, professional advice to all Members across the House.
The Information Office has been using new technologies and means of communication to provide further essential information, in this case, directly to the public. We must also not forget—as has been indicated this evening—that there is a role for the
political parties in explaining the work that they do in this House, and of course they are better placed to handle the strictly party-political issues.
What is clear is that the press team works hard to communicate creatively and effectively. Its work in promoting the House has developed very considerably. For example, in a recent four-week period, press notices issued by the office generated at least 150 media stories about the work of the House. I was astonished to learn that, last Session, work to promote committees led to 856 positive media items. These issues are being monitored on a daily basis. Moreover, the Press Office also works closely with the broadcasters and the House’s broadcasting unit, aiming to disseminate high-quality audio and video coverage of the work of Parliament.
A number of noble Lords have, understandably, mentioned the adverse press coverage. I want to reassure the House this evening that the Press Office and the Clerk of the Parliaments are doing their best to respond quickly and, where appropriate, robustly to unfair criticisms of this House. They have pre-agreed lines to take about a whole range of issues that one might fairly predict the media might raise. They are available for contact 24 hours a day to react to adverse press coverage. That being so, in recent weeks, as has been mentioned, their work has secured a number of corrections to inaccurate reporting in national newspapers, and this has been done in a timely fashion.
Of course, there are times when it is not possible to comment: they cannot comment, for example, on an ongoing investigation by the Commissioner for Standards or answer subjective questions about the size of the House. There are also times when we need to recognise that difficult stories have to be weathered, rather than responded to in every instance. However, a point which ought to encourage us is that the difficult stories stick rather more in our minds than the positive coverage that we receive.
We must accept that the media will take editorial positions, find stories and want to tell them. However, it is also important to recognise that media scrutiny is not necessarily intrinsically bad, and we must never lose sight of the importance of free speech and a free press to the effective functioning of a modern democracy.
Noble Lords may be interested to know that the daily media summary produced by the press and media team often contains lines taken with journalists, so that staff of the House and Members can understand the background to press stories, appreciate the steps that have been taken and explain the position themselves should they wish to do so. I should add that that daily media summary is always available in the Library on the day, and noble Lords are free to access that facility.
Understandably, we have focused largely on press and media work, but it is also worth while recognising that there are other ways in which the House tries to promote its work. For example, the pages on the website have had 175,000 views each quarter, which is an indication of how many people take an interest in the work of the House. Mention has of course been made of the very effective support that is given to the Lord Speaker’s regional outreach, to the Peers in Schools programme and to the fact that 75,000 students meet a Member to learn about the work of this House.
We continue to work closely with the education centre and with universities on understanding Parliament, and we have a digital engagement facility for the Lords Chamber.
A great deal is happening and I end on what, I hope, will be a source of encouragement for those who have taken part—so well, if I may say so—in this very important debate. The debate is most timely because a new communication strategy for the lifetime of this Parliament is now being constructed and will be considered by the relevant domestic committee of the House for approval. I know that this evening’s well-informed contributions will help to shape that document and inform the House Committee’s thinking on where the administration’s strategic resources, both financial and human, should be utilised.
As I said, this has been a most timely and constructive debate. I take the points that have been made about the possibility of engaging a group of Members in further discussion. I again express my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, for securing the debate and to all who have taken part in such a positive and constructive way. It has been extremely helpful and, from my personal point of view, time very well spent. I am very grateful.
8.58 pm
Welfare Reform and Work Bill
13th and 19th Reports from the Delegated Powers Committee
Report (2nd Day) (Continued)
9.06 pm
46C: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause—
“Application of sanctions and disallowances to Jobseeker’s Allowance
(1) The Jobseeker’s Allowance Regulations 1996 are amended as follows.
(2) After regulation 22 insert—
0“Treatment of people found not to be actively seeking employment or available for employment
22A. The Secretary of State shall, by regulations, provide that the payment of housing benefit to a person in receipt of a jobseeker’s allowance shall not cease solely because that person’s award of a jobseeker’s allowance is reduced in accordance with regulations made under section 19B of the Jobseekers Act 1995 (claimants ceasing to be available for employment etc), including for a period during which the claimant ceased to be entitled to a jobseeker’s allowance by failing to comply with the condition in section 1(2)(a) or (c) of the Jobseekers Act 1995 (availability for employment and actively seeking employment), without other due cause.”
(3) In regulation 69B, omit paragraph (7).
(a) for paragraph (1)(a) substitute—
“(a) in any benefit week, 100% of the allowance payable to the claimant, minus the sum of 10 pence; or”;
(b) in sub-paragraph (1)(b)(i), omit from “100%” to the first “couple” and insert “in any benefit week, 100% of the allowance payable to the couple, minus the sum of 10 pence”; and
(c) after paragraph (3) insert—
“(4) The amount referred to in paragraph (3) may not reduce, in any benefit week, the amount of a jobseeker’s allowance payable to the claimant to less than the sum of 10 pence.””
Baroness Manzoor (LD): My Lords, I shall be brief. Noble Lords can see very clearly what the issue is—it is technical and rather complicated. It is now late. If the Minister will give the assurance that he is happy to meet me and the Child Poverty Action Group so that we can discuss the amendment in greater detail, that will be really helpful and will save me having to go through a very complex explanation. I beg to move.
Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, in the spirit of comradeship and friendship with the Liberal Democrats, we are very happy to support that request.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con): I think there were two parts involved in that question, so let me go through them. In answer to the first part, I will meet the noble Baroness and the CPAG. In answer to the second, I am happy to meet her and the CPAG.
Clause 16: Loans for mortgage interest etc
46E: Clause 16, page 15, line 33, leave out from “section” to end of line 34 and insert “may not be made unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament.”
Baroness Sherlock (Lab): My Lords, I rise to move Amendments 46E and 46F in my name and that of my noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton. In doing so, I remind the House of my declared interest as a senior independent director of the Financial Ombudsman Service in case it should prove relevant to the debate.
I will not go back over the substance of the matter, as we discussed it in some detail in Committee. However, I want to push two points that I did not feel, in the end, were satisfactorily addressed by the government response. Amendment 46F seeks to retain the SMI grant scheme for claimants who are in receipt of pension credit; in other words, our poorest pensioners. In Committee, I dubbed this the reverse Salisbury-Addison amendment, reminding the House that we were helping the Government to maintain their manifesto commitment to protect all pensioner benefits, since that is, in fact, who this is mainly aimed at. My concern is that the effect of this policy is essentially to wipe out what is usually the only asset of poor pensioners, and currently their safety net in case they need equity released for
care or other emergencies. As I reported last time, Age UK expressed a concern that older people would be reluctant to take on extra debt, so whereas they might have taken a grant, they will not take out loans. They may indeed compromise their own well-being by limiting essential spending instead. I do not think the Minister addressed that, so I would be grateful if he would.
I also asked a number of other specific questions. I had answers to some at the time, and answers to others in writing later. Sometimes the answers in writing were not the same as those given in Committee, but we will come on to that in a moment. I just want to deal with a couple that are left.
I raised the issue of people who die without enough equity in the house to meet the debt and who might worry that it would not leave them with enough money to pay for their funeral. I had hoped to persuade the Minister to leave a cushion untouched, but he was not having it. His response was that the family could apply for a grant, a funeral payment, from the Social Fund. So will all SMI loan recipients be automatically entitled to access a funeral payment from the Social Fund? If so, how much is it? Will it be enough to cover the fast-rising costs of a funeral all around the country?
I also asked if the loss of SMI would result in someone no longer being entitled to pension credit and thereby losing access to passported benefits such as cold weather payments, help with health costs or access to funeral payments. After a series of questions, supported by the right reverend Prelate of Durham, about the advice that would be offered to people, and having reread the record and read the letter that was given, I wish to tell the Minister what I think has been said and he can correct me if I am wrong. I understood him to say that people will get generalised guidance rather than advice about their own particular circumstances and what they should do. Is that right? I gather that the claimant may have to pay for the advice. Is that right?
During the debate the Minister assured me that the provision of advice would be independent of the party recovering the debt. He assured me that that was case but then wrote to me afterwards and said that in fact it was not the case. I assume that he did not change his mind but that he misread his brief. Either way, can he reassure the House about that because it seems to be a potential conflict of interest? If someone who is advising a pensioner to take out a loan is also making money out of the recovery of that debt, is that not a conflict of interest? If not, how not? I asked him whether a face-to-face option would be available, at least for vulnerable clients. Can he tell me that?
Amendment 46E would require regulations for the scheme to be introduced by the affirmative procedure. The House will recall that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee expressed significant concern about the fact that the draft regulations for the SMI loan scheme had not been made available to the House for debate, given the plan that the scheme be set up by negative regulation. Effectively, the Bill abolishes the grant scheme and empowers Ministers to create a loan scheme but there are no draft regulations before us. Under the proposals they would be introduced
under the negative procedure. The committee therefore recommended that regulations under this clause should be subject to the affirmative procedure. It is usual practice that such a recommendation would be followed. Can the Minister confirm that this will happen? If for some reason he cannot, can he tell the House when the Government last refused such a recommendation from the DPRRC? I beg to move
Lord Young of Cookham (Con): My Lords, we briefly went round this course in Committee. The noble Baroness has raised a number of points to which the Minister will want to respond. However, I am not sure that she made a forceful argument for her Amendment 46F, which seeks to exempt a group of people from this new provision.
Looking at the Bill as a whole, this seems the least painful way of reducing public expenditure, and the argument for looking to this clause for savings is not as strong as the case that could be made in other parts of the Bill. The Opposition recognised this because, in their amendment to the Bill on Second Reading in another place, they specifically said that loans for mortgage interest were a necessary change to the welfare system. So the principle of switching from grants to loans was conceded by the opposition party in another place.
The operation of what is proposed makes no difference to the pensioner at all—the money will simply be paid from the department to the lender—and the impact on the standard of living and the income of the pensioner is wholly unaffected; their day-to-day income is unchanged. The Government’s proposal is that they will continue to get exactly the same level of support as they do at the moment. The fact that the loan may eventually be recovered from their estate has minimal bearing on their financial position, although of course their heirs may take a slightly different view. One has to balance the expectations of the heirs against the taxpayer, who at the moment is footing the bill. Given the imperative to reduce welfare expenditure, it seems to me that this is one of the least objectionable ways of doing it, and I very much hope that the amendment will not be pressed to a Division.
9.15 pm
Lord Freud: My Lords, Amendment 46E would apply the affirmative procedure to the support for mortgage interest loan regulations as recommended by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee. The committee opined that these are novel provisions which are likely to have a significant impact on a large number of people. This is true, but the part which is novel is the change in this support from a benefit to a loan. In all other aspects the level of support offered and the way the system will be administered will simply replicate the existing system. The committee made its recommendation before your Lordships debated these measures in detail. I have been quite clear about how the new loan system will be implemented and that the regulations we will bring forward will replicate the existing SMI system. Using the affirmative procedure for these regulations would therefore not be a good use of parliamentary time.
I will come to the government amendments, which may actually be the real palliative here because we will have SSAC reports in this area. If they come up with something there is space within the negative procedure to bring issues before the House. The committee did not have that information about what we were planning with SSAC. I should also point out that the current SMI regulations are subject to the negative procedure.
Amendment 46F would prevent the Government from changing the benefit into a loan for those on state pension credit. It would allow regulations to be made to create a system of grants for pensioners’ mortgage interest. This would mean that pensioners would receive help with their mortgage interest as a grant rather than a loan and that that would be the case indefinitely. In this context that would be unsustainable and clearly unfair on the taxpayer. It is not right that taxpayers, many of whom of course cannot afford to buy their own home, are subsidising the acquisition of what in many cases is a very substantial asset. Pensioners will have access to the same level of support for mortgage interest payments as the current system provides and the Government will not recover the loan until the property is sold. With pension credit claimants, it is most likely that this will be on their death and therefore will impact not on them but on the beneficiaries of their will. My noble friend made the point that they may not be that pleased, but the balance is between them and the taxpayer.
I shall pick up on some of the specific points. Pension credit claimants will have access to passported benefits such as funeral payments. We would normally provide advice through a telephone conversation and the advice will focus on the circumstances of the individual concerned with regard to their options, asking whether they have alternatives available such as downsizing or help from relatives or their heirs. I think that the noble Baroness should take my last word on the issue of who would do this as I wrote in my letter. To the extent that that contradicts what I said earlier, it should be the latter. Our view is that whatever theoretical potential conflict there might be, we will make sure as we set out the arrangements that there is no conflict in the way it is done. I think that that is what I expressed in my letter, although perhaps not using that language.
Let me reassure noble Lords that the Government will seek to recover the debt only up to the level of available equity when the property is sold. Any outstanding debt will be written off. The amendment would also provide powers to introduce regulations to introduce a waiting period for pensioners before they can receive help. There is currently no waiting period for help with mortgage interest for pensioner claimants and it is not the Government’s intention to introduce one. With those explanations, I urge noble Lords not to press the amendments.
Amendments 47 to 49 and 83 provide that loans for mortgage interest regulations made under the Welfare Reform and Work Bill are submitted to SSAC, the independent statutory body that provides impartial advice on social security and related matters for consideration. With the introduction of the new loans-based scheme, help with mortgage interest will no longer be a part of
benefit entitlement. However, we recognise the important role that SSAC plays in the scrutiny of regulations and have accepted the recommendation of the DPRRC to provide that regulations relating to loans for mortgage interest fall within the remit of SSAC. I have just realised that I slightly misspoke when I implied that the committee might not have both those bits of information. Perhaps I may also withdraw that point.
The amendments also ensure that certain decision-making rules in the Social Security Act 1998 apply to decisions about SMI loans in the same way as they apply to decisions about benefits. In particular, this will ensure that an appeal may be brought against a decision relating to a mortgage interest loan in the same way as an appeal may be brought against a decision relating to a benefit. This means that applicants will have the same appeal rights as under the existing provision for support with mortgage interest, ensuring fairness for applicants of the new loan provision. They will allow the department to supply information about SMI loans within the broader welfare system to persons who are concerned with the provision of welfare services. For example, it will allow the Secretary of State to share information with those providing free school meals and health benefits such as free prescriptions, so that recipients of SMI loans can access these “passported” benefits. I think that that picks up on the point made by the noble Baroness about concerns with the passporting issues.
The final amendment is a minor and technical change to the Long Title. The purpose of SMI loans is to prevent repossessions. All types of mortgages and loans are eligible for support under the new loan system. This change ensures that the Long Title accurately reflects the contents of the Bill by including a reference to “other liabilities”.
Baroness Sherlock: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response. I hope that he will take away again the point about the DPRRC. I certainly welcome the move to refer the regulations to SSAC but, welcome though SSAC is and much as I respect its expertise, it is not Parliament. Parliament should have the opportunity to debate this. He mentioned that the DPRRC recognises that regulations for loans for the grant scheme were negative. I am working from memory but I think that the committee pointed out that, had the draft regulations been available, it would have recommended negative in the ordinary run of things because the original regulations had been negative. In fact, the draft regulations were not available, which is why it recommended the affirmative procedure. Will he go away and think about that?
The fact that the Minister said that the service normally will be by telephone gives me a glimmer of hope that the department might be willing to consider a face-to-face service for vulnerable consumers. I hope he will consider that. I will not take on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Young, although I disagree with him. Given the lateness of the hour and the fact that we went around this issue fairly effectively in Committee, I will set that to one side. I thank the Minister for his other comments. I hope that when he looks at the record he will check the presumptions that I have made as to the operation of the scheme.
Should any of those prove to be wrong and not to have been corrected by him, I hope that he will write to me. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Clause 18: Consequential amendments
47: Clause 18, page 17, line 36, at end insert—
“( ) In section 170 of the Social Security Administration Act 1992 (Social Security Advisory Committee), in subsection (5)—
(a) in the definition of “the relevant enactments”, after paragraph (an) insert—
“(ao) sections 16, 17 and 19 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016;”;
(b) in the definition of “the relevant Northern Ireland enactments”, after paragraph (an) insert—
“(ao) any provisions in Northern Ireland which correspond to sections 16, 17 and 19 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016;”.”
48: Clause 18, page 17, line 36, at end insert—
“( ) In section 2 of the Social Security Act 1998 (use of computers), in subsection (2)—
(a) omit the “or” after paragraph (m);
(b) after paragraph (n) insert “or
(o) sections 16 to 19 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016.”
( ) In section 8 of the Social Security Act 1998 (decisions by Secretary of State)—
(a) in subsection (3) (meaning of “relevant benefit”), after paragraph (bb) insert—
“(bc) a loan under section 16 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016;”;
(b) in subsection (4) (meaning of “relevant enactment”), for “or section 30 of that Act” substitute “, section 30 of that Act or sections 16 to 19of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016”.
( ) In section 11 of the Social Security Act 1998 (regulations with respect to decisions), in subsection (3), in the definition of “the current legislation”, for “and section 30 of that Act” substitute “, section 30 of that Act and sections 16 to 19 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016”.
( ) In section 28 of the Social Security Act 1998 (correction of errors and setting aside of decisions), in subsection (3)—
(a) omit the “or” after paragraph (i);
(b) after paragraph (j) insert “; or
(k) sections 16 to 19 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016.”
( ) In section 39 of the Social Security Act 1998 (interpretation etc of Chapter 2 of Part 1), after subsection (1) insert—
(a) a reference to a benefit includes a reference to a loan under section 16 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016;
(b) a reference to a claim for a benefit includes a reference to an application for a loan under section 16 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016;
(c) a reference to a claimant includes a reference to an applicant for a loan under section 16 of the Welfare
Reform and Work Act 2016 or, in relation to a couple jointly applying for a loan under that section, a reference to the couple or either member of the couple;
(d) a reference to an award of a benefit to a person includes a reference to a decision that a person is eligible for a loan under section 16 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016;
(e) a reference to entitlement to a benefit includes a reference to eligibility for a loan under section 16 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016.””
49: Clause 18, page 17, line 41, at end insert—
“( ) In section 131 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 (information-sharing in relation to welfare services etc), in subsection (12), in the definition of “relevant social security benefit” for the words from “has” to the end substitute “means—
(a) a relevant social security benefit as defined in section 121DA(7) of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, or
(b) a loan under section 16 of the Welfare Reform and Work Act 2016 (loans for mortgage interest etc);”.”
50: Clause 22, page 21, line 8, at end insert—
“(c) the accommodation is owned by a fully mutual housing co-operative within the meaning of paragraph 12(1)(h) of Schedule 1 to the Housing Act 1988 (local authority tenancies etc);
(d) the accommodation is owned by a community land trust within the meaning of section 79 of the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (English bodies).”
Lord Best (CB): My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 50 and 51, the first two amendments in the group, in my name and those of the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie of Luton, Lord Shipley and Lord Kerslake, and to support the other amendments in the group that follow in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Ramsbotham and Lord Kerslake, and the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher.