Examination of Witnesses (Questions 231
- 239)
TUESDAY 30 JANUARY 2007
MS JULIE
BRAMMAN, DR
ROBIN CLEGG,
PAUL SPENCER
AND PROFESSOR
ALAN WELLS
Q231 Chairman: Could I first of all
say how delighted the Science and Technology Select Committee
is to be here at the Space Centre in Leicester and thank all our
witnesses today for giving evidence to us. Can I introduce Dr
Robin Clegg, the Head of Science and Society, at the Particle
Physics and Astronomy Research Council (PPARC); Ms Julie Bramman,
the Divisional Manager for School Curriculum, Department for Education
and Skills, I think we met in another guise some time ago; Paul
Spencer, the Evaluator and Consultant for Space Connections; and
Professor Alan Wells, the Emeritus Professor and Leverhulme Emeritus
Fellow, University of Leicester, and the Non-Executive Director
of the National Space Centre. Welcome to you all and thank you
very much indeed for giving us evidence. Could I welcome also
students and anyone else who has come along this afternoon. The
inquiry that we are involved in is looking at Britain's role in
space, looking at the space industry, and in particular looking
at the way in which space and space policy inspires young people
to become involved particularly in physics and astrophysics but
also how it inspires them to learn. I wonder if I could perhaps
start with you, Professor Wells, we have been told that space
stimulates young people's interest in science; what evidence is
there of that or is this just very nice equipment and ideas to
look and engage with?
Professor Wells: I do think we
have got a bit more than just nice feelings about this. I will
mention two pieces of data and I did actually provide some slides
here that you could have a look at while I am talking. Firstly
this morning you heard from Martin Barstow about the nature of
the science programmes in space and astrophysics. We have been
looking at the graduate output from that and over the past decade,
where the overall number of physics students has stayed pretty
constant at about 2,500, within that physics cadre the number
of graduates studying astronomy, astrophysics and space has gone
up four-fold. I think that first of all is a reflection of the
attractiveness and the enthusiasm that this subject as a whole
generates. At the other end of the scale here at the National
Space Centre we have been operating now for about six years and
during that time the education programmes have built up to the
point where we are seeing some 50,000 young people mainly in the
Key Stage 2 and 3 group coming through and having visits here.
There is a small study that we have just concluded and the data
is there in one of the charts for you. The Endeavour Learning
Centre, which you visited this afternoon, have tracked the group
of children who went through in 2004-05 and they have measured
the change in their level of attainment going from Key Stage 2
to Key Stage 3 and the results have staggered me, frankly, because
we are finding 91% of the group that went through the Endeavour
Learning Centre activity have shown an increase in level of attainment
of one level or more going from Key Stage 2 to Key Stage 3.
Q232 Dr Spink: We are all totally
sold on this, I am sure, it is a fantastic project, but what we
need to make sure is that the project not only continues to the
future but that we get projects in other parts of this country
similar to this, and we need evidence to present to politicians.
We need to know that these kids are not only increasing their
ability and attitude towards science and engineering but they
are actually taking it up and they are choosing those options
for their education and careers later on. Are you tracking the
kids that are going through at all stages so that we can get that
evidence?
Professor Wells: I have to say
we are really only just starting to do that and we should have
woken up to that a bit earlier, undoubtedly. There was a study
done in 2002 by Tim Jarvis who is now the Director of the Science
Learning Centre of kids who went through the Challenger Learning
Centre and there again there was another strong indicator of an
uptake of interest even among children who previously did not
have an interest in science. I do take your point about continuity
and we are trying to do something about that here. We have embarked
on a new project which will be a pilot education project involving
education workshops for kids coming up to GCSE, so the 14 to 16
age group, and then the 16 to 19 age group, and we have co-operation
with the colleges of further education as well as the sixth form
colleges who want to do this, so the thing that we have identified
is that there actually is a gap between the Key Stage 2/3 support
which is done in quite a lot of visitor science centres, and done
very well I think, and this continuity through to the GCSE and
the A level, and we are now going to do something about that.
We are some nine months into the project to set that up and that
will include courses and familiarisation for the teachers as well
as the students. We are putting in place the process to track
that but we have not, apart from the two studies I have mentioned,
got very much data so far.
Q233 Dr Turner: How narrowly focused
was the improvement in Key Stage 2 performance that you have registered?
How far did it spread across the children's curriculum? Was it
confined to subjects that could be related specifically to space
or was it wider than that? Did they show an improvement in maths
and in language skills or whatever?
Professor Wells: I think the improvements
you can point to are in the physical sciences because that is
where we are targeting, but you also get this added benefit of
practice and achievements in team work and communication as well
which are social skills that go with this. I make no apology for
the fact that we are at the moment focusing mainly on the physical
sciences because we identify that this is a Government target
from the Science and Innovation Framework Report of last March
and I think that space is an inspirational educative tool that
will achieve results in time in that area.
Q234 Chairman: But clearly this is
a Space Centre here and I asked the question earlier as to what
was the average distance of students who visited the centre and
the answer was roughly about two hours' drive, an average of 65
miles, which means that people in my constituency, which is the
very impoverished constituency of Harrogate, and north right through
Newcastle and so on are not going to be able to access centres
like this. What evidence is there in your experience that space
is actually a turn-on to the physical sciences across the country?
Can I ask Julie that question.
Ms Bramman: The ROSE Review last
year highlighted that there are quite important differences in
what interests young girls and what interests young boys in terms
of science with girls being interested in things mainly about
self and about health, climate change and those sorts of things
and boys are much more interested in robotics and destructive
forces—gender stereotyping I know but those were the findings.
They also found that both boys and girls were interested in space
and its mysteries and in exploration, and so we are as convinced
as Professor Wells is that this is a motivating area of the curriculum.
Q235 Chairman: You see what worries
us as a Committee—and it was really the question that both
my colleagues picked up—is where is the quantity and quality
of data which actually shows that investing in space is a good
investment for education for turning young people on because there
does not seem to be any quantitative data or qualitative data.
Who should be doing that? Who should be pulling that together?
It is surely not the job of the Space Centre here?
Ms Bramman: Obviously they will
want to evaluate their own programmes and that would be a sensible
thing to do. More generally I think there obviously is a call
for more evidence than we currently have about space or any other
element of the curriculum.
Q236 Chairman: Who should be doing
it?
Ms Bramman: I am not quite sure
who should be doing it.
Q237 Chairman: Have a guess.
Ms Bramman: I take it you are
thinking it is my department that should be doing that.
Q238 Chairman: Yes. Would you agree
with that though, that it should be the DfES?
Ms Bramman: I think that it could
well be the DfES.
Chairman: That was very diplomatic.
Q239 Chris Mole: Can I just follow
that up. Would that be through somebody like the NFER?
Ms Bramman: We would put it out
to tender. The department has a research programme into education
where its priorities are set on an annual basis and agreed by
the Secretary of State and then those research programmes are
put out to tender.
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