Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240
- 259)
TUESDAY 30 JANUARY 2007
MS JULIE
BRAMMAN, DR
ROBIN CLEGG,
PAUL SPENCER
AND PROFESSOR
ALAN WELLS
Q240 Chris Mole: Given the Government's
current commitment to the personalisation agenda is it not quite
important that it gets this sort of evidence for these sorts of
programmes?
Ms Bramman: I think all evidence
that we have about what motivates young people and what turns
them on to science and other STEM subjects where we know we need
a skilled workforce in the future is good evidence.
Q241 Chairman: Dr Clegg, perhaps
PPARC should be doing this then if it is not the DfES.
Dr Clegg: We have certainly done
some work in this area and we would be very glad to work with
the DfES. Can I just mention a couple of other reports that helped
to form the evidence base. First of all, the report that we commissioned
by Professor Martin Barstow included a rather small survey of
teachers who gave evidence on the inspirational value of space
and the effect on their children. Secondly, there was the document
The Education and Skills Case for Space by my colleague
Paul Spencer and Graham Hulbert which was jointly commissioned
by PPARC and three other agencies. Thirdly, I could point to a
report published by the Nestlé Social Research Foundation
by Professor Helen Haste who investigated young people's views
of science and technology and that did distinguish between boys'
and girls' responses. Between the three of them that does contribute
to the evidence base, including some quantitative information
from Scotland where the organisation Careers Scotland is running
a very large volume of space camps and space schools, and the
quantitative data that is in Paul Spencer's report which I believe
the Committee has. The survey by Professor Barstow was jointly
commissioned by PPARC and the DfES and the British National Space
Centre and so that perhaps was an example of us working together.
Q242 Chairman: I needed to put that
on the record. Paul, could I come to you and indeed your report
here; do you believe that UK manned space flight or human space
flight would really be the inspiration and the lever which turns
the tap on for young people being interested in studying physics
and going on to post-16 to do A2 and AS and then on to university?
Paul Spencer: It is a difficult
question to answer whether UK manned space flight would do that
but certainly when you ask young people what jobs are available
in the space industry, the predominant answer is that of an astronaut.
In fact, a lot of people think that is the only job there is in
the space industry and therefore that would rule out most members
of the UK as you suggest. There certainly is a lack of awareness
among not only young people but among the populous in general,
even highly educated people, about the nature of the UK space
industry. Because we are involved largely in the utilitarian end
of things in terms of satellites and communication, all vitally
essential for those other things but—
Q243 Chairman: I will come back to
that but in terms of human space flight but do you think if the
UK Government supported it in the next Comprehensive Spending
Review that it would be a big turn-on in terms of solving that?
Paul Spencer: Yes, it would.
Q244 Chairman: Would you all agree
on that? Can I just get an answer. I only want a yes or no. You
said no Professor Wells.
Ms Bramman: No.
Dr Clegg: PPARC believes it would
be a turn-on but of course there are many wider considerations.
Q245 Dr Turner: But in the States
people have had the opportunity to be astronauts continuously
now for about 20 years and the "Apollo effect" of promoting
interest in science and engineering has tailed off, so why is
that then? Why given the United States' experience do those of
you who believe it would be positive in Britain think that there
would be a difference?
Paul Spencer: Because the human
space endeavours are the ones that grab the imagination rather
than launching satellites and so on.
Q246 Chairman: But they have not
with Apollo. The Apollo effect has tailed off and there is the
same effect in the States as is what is happening here that fewer
students are doing the physical sciences, particularly physics
and mathematics in high schools and universities. I will leave
that.
Professor Wells: Perhaps I could
qualify my dissent if I may. I do take the view that the UK non-involvement
in present human space flight with the International Space Station
is a correct position. It is a correct position because—
Q247 Chairman: I am not asking that
question. The question I am asking is really would manned space
flight inspire young people and you said no.
Professor Wells: Then I would
say that if the UK were to be involved for other reasons in exploration
to the moon and beyond, there would be a positive effect but I
do not believe it is a silver bullet.
Q248 Dr Turner: And you do not think
that robotic exploration will capture the public imagination in
the same way, remembering the Beagle story when I seem to remember
people getting quite excited even if they were let down with a
bit of bump (as was Beagle).
Professor Wells: It was a very
big bump. I was there on Christmas morning waiting and waiting.
We found for example there was a 15% uplift in visitor numbers
here. We put the Beagle 2 operation here in the public visitor
centre and it was the first time it had ever been done. There
was an inspirational aspect too which we have seen, and I think
that the continuation of that interest into planetary science
with the UK taking a prominent position in robotic exploration
of the solar system is a direct consequence of the public interest
in Beagle 2 so there is a big inspirational aspect.
Q249 Chairman: In response to this
do you accept that robotics is a turn-on to young people, this
idea of developing sophisticated robotics running around on the
moon or Mars or whatever?
Dr Clegg: Yes I do. We saw, as
Professor Wells said, very large public interest in the Mars Express
mission with the Beagle 2 lander and we have the press cuttings
and the statistics to prove that and stories from Professor Pillinger
of children getting up on Christmas morning and asking first,
"What happened to Beagle?" before they asked, "Where
are my presents?"
Q250 Chairman: Or "Where is
Santa?"
Dr Clegg: Similarly, with the
Cassini-Huygens mission and the landing of Huygens on Titan where
there was strong public interest the following Christmas, so,
absolutely, robotic exploration can be very inspirational particularly
the specific events and incidents, landings and so on. While manned
space flight is inspirational, and of course I would agree, it
is not a magic bullet, and robotics has a very strong inspirational
value too, and there are many wider considerations including the
cost and other things that need to be borne in mind.
Q251 Dr Turner: In terms of the cost
it is quite obvious that even if the UK were to go back into manned
space flight there is no way that we could afford to do it on
our own and we would only be a minority partner in a joint enterprise.
Do you think that this would still capture the public imagination,
especially as even that sort of extra investment could count against
some of the robotic work that is already being done, so there
would be a price to pay for that as well?
Dr Clegg: That is the crunch.
PPARC would not be in favour of investing in this manned work
if it harmed what I will call the UK space science programme,
the robotics and so on. PPARC would be very concerned about that.
The human programme would come at an extra cost. I think costs
are coming down actually. There is the concept now of taking taxi
missions on a Russian spacecraft up to the space station and so
on, and that is not that expensive, one could have a programme
for under about £10 million a year, but we would be most
concerned not to harm the current UK space programme where the
UK is very strong in designing and building instruments for doing
space science and is a world leader on that.
Q252 Dr Turner: Do you think there
would still be a benefit in public interest if we were able to
get a foothold back in manned space, assuming that we could do
it without damaging the rest of the work?
Dr Clegg: I think there would
be some inspirational value but it is definitely not a silver
bullet and there is a limited scientific case, as has recently
been annunciated by a report from the Royal Astronomical Society,
and I think great scientific progress can and should be made through
the robotic programmes.
Q253 Dr Turner: Paul, a last word
from you on this before we move on. Human space flight is not
the silver bullet to turn young people on.
Paul Spencer: There are so many
different aspects of space. The value of space to education is
not just about humans in space, that is the tip of the iceberg.
There are an awful lot of other aspects of space which make it
a very attractive proposition to a lot of people and, as Julie
says, there are different aspects of space applying across different
genders and age groups and so on.
Q254 Chris Mole: Dr Clegg said the
price is coming down for a manned entry on a Russian vehicle of
some sort; what are we talking about?
Dr Clegg: I am not an expert on
this but I understand from colleagues that there is a concept
of a taxi mission on a spacecraft up to the space station and
things like that with costs of £10 million to £15 million
a year so there could be a programme over five years. I am not
an advocate of it, I am just commenting.
Chairman: We did know that but it would
be useful to have a little note on that from PPARC in terms of
those costs and that alternative way of getting people into space.
Q255 Dr Spink: On that point is there
though a negative side to that coin as well? I am an enthusiast
of that but should we not consider the negative impact if anything
ever went wrong in the setting back of space and the public perception
of space exploration?
Dr Clegg: Yes, space is a risky
business.
Dr Spink: I just wanted that on the record.
Chairman: Adam, you have been very patient.
Q256 Adam Afriyie: I would like to
return briefly just to examine a bit more the educational aspect
of the space industry. It is quite clear that there is a systemic
lack of science, technology, engineering and mathematics students
and they are obviously feeders into the space industry if you
like. If do not have the students or the graduates you do not
have your raw material for the space industry. David Williams,
the British National Space Centre Director General, gave evidence
and he told us that "we could do more" on space education.
Do you agree that the British National Space Centre could do more
and do you agree that more needs to be done in the area of STEM
subject encouragement? It might be better if Professor Wells and
Robin Clegg answer I think and then we can move to the DfES.
Professor Wells: I think the answer
is yes to both. Certainly one of the difficulties that we encounter
both in linking together the education programmes coming out of
the universities and the education programmes here is the very
disparate nature of funding to support these programmes, so we
have a little bit here from ECSITE, a little bit here from PPARC
(we can always have more!) and EMDA and our own internal investments
to keep these education programmes going whereas a joined-up approach
would be very beneficial. In my recommendation to you in my written
paper I tried to develop that theme and I did not develop it simply
as a regional objective but as an objective to roll out as a pilot
on a national basis. We would look to BNSC as the agency with
the space expertise as an organisation that could help us to consolidate
these different activities because they do cut across different
departments and the partnership that BNSC embraces is the partners
that have an interest in this, they look after the interests of
the industry. There is a DfES involvement with the Communications
Group of BNSC and we do bring together the important academic
blue skies aspect of space in the universities and the applications
programmes in organisations like NERC so there are the means to
bring it all together. What we need is the motivation to join
all these pieces up.
Q257 Adam Afriyie: And from your
perspective, Dr Clegg, you clearly fund certain parts of research
and education but do you think the BNSC could do more?
Dr Clegg: Can I mention my three
hats: firstly as a personal champion for space education; secondly
as a PPARC representative; and thirdly as a partner in the BNSC
partnership. Can I also correct something I said earlier because
when I gave a PPARC view on this that was my personal view as
a champion. PPARC does not really have a policy on this since
our remit is space science. Turning to your question, PPARC the
research council supports the use of the inspirational value of
space to engage young people and try and attract the next generation
of scientists. We have a budget of £1.25 million a year for
our Science and Society programme and perhaps roughly half of
that goes on projects related to astronomy and space with a selection
of small, medium and large investments, so we work hard at that.
Our remit is limited to space science. Speaking as a partner organisation
in the BNSC partnership we are very keen to facilitate better
arrangements in the United Kingdom. There is a wealth of small
and medium-sized regional and local initiatives providing support
in what is called the STEM area—science, technology, engineering
and maths—for schools formally and informally and there
is a perceived need to co-ordinate this better and to provide
a better linkage to the European Space Agency and the education
programmes and resources it has.
Q258 Adam Afriyie: If there is a
need who should perform that function?
Dr Clegg: I was just coming on
to that because we have given a green light and political endorsement
to a new arrangement which is for a Space Education Office which
will provide strategic leadership, be a co-ordinating centre,
and will provide a better relationship with the European Space
Agency.
Q259 Adam Afriyie: And would you
see that as sitting within the Department for Education and Skills
which I think most people would assume to have responsibility
for the STEM subjects?
Dr Clegg: I see it as being supported
and funded by one of the regional development agencies, Yorkshire
Forward, and very much with a management board that comprises
the BNSC partners, and I hope the DfES would join us and some
other key stakeholders.
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