Examiation of Witnesses (Questions 160-177)
MR RICHARD
LONGSON AND
MR KIERAN
GORDON
1 APRIL 2008
Q160 Mr Havard: Do you feel personally
confident that you know enough of the outlets to which you could
point someone to do that?
Mr Longson: Yes, but the issue
is across the piece.
Q161 Mr Havard: That is why you are
the president and there are a lot who are not?
Mr Longson: I could not possibly
comment.
Q162 Mr Crausby: The recruiting environment
has changed, has it not, in the sense that for some years we have
had a growing economy and young people's expectations have completely
changed, in that they expect more out of life than going down
the coal mine and into the factory; they prefer to go into further
education? What more can the MoD do to meet those challenges?
Mr Gordon: We need to look ahead.
There is a Bill going through Parliament at the moment to raise
the level of participation by ensuring that young people cannot
leave learning before the age of 18. It will be interesting to
see where the MoD positions itself in that respect. I suppose
that the MoD is a provider of learning in that context, much the
same as a school sixth form, college or an employer who employs
apprentices. The MoD needs to consider where it positions itself.
We are seeing higher numbers of young people staying in learning
longer and opting for further education. That impacts on their
choices. We see more young people make choices later than, say,
10 years ago; they make their career or job choice at the age
of 18 and beyond rather than 16 and beyond as it was years ago.
The Bill that is now going through will confirm that is the case.
The MoD needs to think about its position in the context of a
higher level in participation in learning beyond the age of 16
and the fact that it will not be lawful to drop out of learning
before 18. It will raise the age at which some critical decisions
are made.
Q163 Mr Havard: That will be in England?
Mr Gordon: Yes, of course.
Mr Longson: The new facilities
at Welbeck foundation college are important pieces in the jigsaw
about which my colleague has been talking.
Q164 Mr Crausby: The MoD has a different
strategy for 15 to 18 year-olds and those over 18. Is that not
a bit out of date? Should it not pull it all together rather than
view them as two separate groups of people?
Mr Gordon: I think they should.
Mr Longson: We talk about lifelong
learning and that is what we are in.
Q165 Mr Crausby: The training environment
applies also to others. It is not just the MoD that has a problem
as far as young people are concerned; the same principles must
apply to the Police, Fire and Ambulance Services. What can the
MoD learn from those services to attract young people other than
to pay them a lot more money—or is that the issue?
Mr Gordon: I am not sure that
is the issue. At least anecdotally, I am sure there must be people
in the MoD involved in recruitment to the Armed Forces who look
very keenly at the civilian uniformed forces and see how they
fare, and vice versa. I do not believe that it is a major problem
with the Armed Forces, MoD and the resources it has available
in their emphasis on recruitment in terms of marketing the forces
as a career option. There is probably not much that it would learn
from the Police or Ambulance Service in that respect.
Mr Longson: From my experience,
students who have looked at civilian services are different from
those who have looked at the Armed Forces. I do not believe that
it is a simple picture.
Mr Gordon: One can access the
Armed Forces earlier than the Police Service, for example.
Q166 Mr Jenkins: Mr Longson, you
mentioned Welbeck College. Youngsters join up, go off to do degrees
and become officers. We have state school pupils and private school
pupils in this country and by far the larger number are those
in state schools. What percentage of pupils from state schools
do you think manage to achieve the Army sixth-form scholarship?
Mr Longson: Off the top of my
head I do not know.
Mr Gordon: I am sure we can find
out that figure.
Q167 Mr Jenkins: If I told you that
in 2006 and 2007 three-quarters of scholarships were awarded to
youngsters from private schools would you be shocked?
Mr Gordon: No.
Q168 Mr Jenkins: Why is it that youngsters
from private schools, who are a small percentage of the total,
get three-quarters of the scholarships? Is it because it is the
best kept secret and nobody in the state system knows about it,
or is it because private schools may be the preserve of most of
the officer class who send their children to private schools anyway
and are supported by the taxpayer? Maybe that is a continuation
of the process because military families do tend to produce military
families. Why is this not better known or not a secret? Why do
we not have youngsters from state schools making applications
in larger numbers for this scholarship?
Mr Gordon: I suspect you have
answered the question in the illustrations you have given. Military
families go down the generations. In my experience in private
independent schools you will see very active cadet forces in operation
whereas you do not see that so much in the state sector.
Q169 Mr Jenkins: Do you suggest that
perhaps we should have a more active cadet force in the state
sector?
Mr Gordon: Within schools?
Q170 Mr Jenkins: Yes.
Mr Gordon: I do not know. It depends
on whether the schools themselves would wish to operate on that
basis. For me, the danger of over-emphasising and making too accessible
certain careers over others is that it skews the picture of choices
for young people. There are a number of wider benefits than just
recruitment, but we see increasing numbers of young people in
the state sector enrolling in Duke of Edinburgh Award schemes
and doing very well out of it. That is a change. I would not say
that that used to be the preserve of independent and public schools
but certainly a much higher proportion came from that sector.
When you look at the growth of Duke of Edinburgh Award schemes
in the state sector and in non-traditional Duke of Edinburgh active
areas that has had a great effect on those young people. It can
be done because it has happened outside the Armed Forces context
in the Duke of Edinburgh Award schemes.
Q171 Mr Jenkins: Do you think that
our bright young people should be made aware of this scholarship?
Mr Gordon: I think all young people
should be made aware of it.
Q172 Chairman: Mr Gordon, do you
agree with what Mr Longson said about the benefits of the cadet
forces?
Mr Gordon: I do not have the same
experience as Mr Longson.
Q173 Chairman: It sounds as though
you do not have the same enthusiasm for the cadet forces that
clearly Mr Longson has.
Mr Gordon: If it does it is because
I do not have the same experience. I do not mean that I have a
different experience but that Mr Longson has a much closer working
relationship with cadet forces than I have ever had. I am sure
that there is much I can learn in that respect.
Q174 Mr Jenkin: My son was a cadet
and he loved it, though he did not join the Army. Referring to
the high proportion of officers that the Army in particular draws
from the independent school sector, would you agree that the Armed
Forces are missing out on a lot of potential in state schools
because they tend to go to familiar recruiting grounds for officer
material?
Mr Longson: From conversation
with liaison officers who have been to my school, which is an
independent, they talk about going into the local schools in just
the same way as they go into my school. I cannot comment on whether
or not nationally the figures demonstrate that. I referred to
different family cultures. I do not think it is necessarily about
school but about how a family reacts to it, whether it be an independent
or state school. Certainly in an independent school I have known
families that are not very keen when youngsters say that they
want to join.
Q175 Mr Jenkin: Do you think that
it is something for the schools or the Armed Forces to address;
or is the imbalance something with which we should be comfortable?
Mr Gordon: I do not think we should
be comfortable about it given the basic premise that all young
people should have an equal opportunity to pursue whatever career
opportunities befit their interests and potential. Therefore,
I cannot agree with that. It is for schools and the Armed Forces
to address it. If we were here talking about the number of young
people who go into law and medicine from the respective schools
we would be very concerned and say that we need to redress the
balance. It is true across the board.
Q176 Mr Jenkin: How should we address
that?
Mr Gordon: I go back to what I
said before. It is about better careers education and preparation
for young people. All too frequently young people leave school
not having had the necessary level of input in terms of career
education and are not sufficiently equipped to make important
decisions at the age of 16, 17 or 18. They are skills that they
need throughout life. We know that more and more young people
entering the labour market will be faced with many different career
change opportunities, forced or otherwise. I do not think we do
enough to prepare young people for those decisions.
Q177 Mr Borrow: Is it a reasonable
perception that there are many state schools with a long tradition
of being a source of recruitment into the Armed Forces, particularly
the Army, but that recruitment is not to the officer corps but
to the other ranks? The issue is whether or not within those schools
where there is that tradition of going into the Armed Forces,
in particular the Army, the perception should be raised that there
is a possibility of those youngsters not simply joining the other
ranks but to get into the officer stream and it is at that level
that we need to make a breakthrough?
Mr Longson: In that sense, when
we talk about recruiters coming in and a specific thing that needs
to be done in terms of the MoD there is a need to make sure those
people understand the shape of their education and appreciate
that a young person who is doing a certain set of subjects or
is heading in a certain direction does indeed have the potential
to become an officer.
Chairman: Thank you very much. This has
been another extremely helpful bit of evidence.
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