Examiation of Witnesses (Questions 140-159)
MR RICHARD
LONGSON AND
MR KIERAN
GORDON
1 APRIL 2008
Q140 Mr Jenkins: You have indicated
that the Services are different and the Army is probably better
in this respect. In what way is the Army better? How do you compare
the strengths and weaknesses of the Services in presenting their
case to young people?
Mr Gordon: When I said "better"
I was referring to the Army being more active and proactive than
the other forces. Anecdotally, the Air Force and Navy tend to
be more bespoke; they look for a particular skill level and attract
people from specific areas of interest, whereas the Army tends
to have a more comprehensive approach. Very often in major towns
and cities the recruitment offices of the Armed Forces are cheek
by jowl, so at that point there is no great differential. I am
not sure whether it is due to resources or sheer weight of numbers
of personnel. I do not say it is necessarily better or more effective
but it is easier to make contact with the Army perhaps than the
Royal Navy or Royal Air Force. But we have plenty of experience
of working with those other Services and have also had some positive
experiences with them. The Army however seems to be more evident.
Mr Longson: From the school point
of view the key thing is the building of trust and relationships
between the careers co-ordinator and the incoming liaison officer.
That relationship is very important so that when talking to young
people about a career in that area you have confidence in the
person who is coming in. Accessibility to liaison officers is
absolutely crucial.
Q141 Mr Jenkins: In a former life
I was a teacher and so I understand it. You talk about youngsters
making decisions when they are 16 or 18. When they get to the
age of 18 they say they want to do such and such and then they
are told that they should have done physics. They did not know
that. We are talking about youngsters being informed at 13 that
if this is the career they want to pursue they must take maths,
physics or whatever is the requirement. Are we linking them back
to that level in the forces, that is, that if a youngster wants
to be a fighter pilot he has to meet certain requirements?
Mr Longson: That will depend institution
by institution. The information is there. It does fit into a much
wider picture and goes beyond defence; it is about access to good
and impartial guidance in education, and external guidance coming
into schools to support good decisions being made by young people.
I think it goes beyond defence.
Mr Gordon: You touch on a very
important issue. Whether it is the Armed Forces or other careers,
more could be done to make people aware at an earlier age. Traditionally,
the period at which young people move into key stage four and
have critical options towards GCSE and other qualifications the
emphasis will be more on the logistics of trying to timetable
those subjects—I am sure you will be aware of that—than
the career implications of those subjects for young people. We
need to place greater emphasis on the fact that choices made at
age 13 will have a bearing on choices made at 16, 18 and beyond.
One hopes that with the new 14 to 19 curriculum and the idea of
a continuous pathway choices made at 14 will have a bearing much
later in life. Therefore, I hope that we see better support and
evidence within schools for decisions at those points.
Q142 Mr Jenkins: I am a great advocate
of the cadet force. I believe that it is the best youth service
in the country bar none. Do you have any connection or link with
youngsters who are in the cadets? Do you see how they do at school
and their motivation? Is it a good thing? I am not necessarily
worried about recruitment from the cadets. As far as I am concerned
that is a bi-product, but do you see the cadets as a valuable
force to pass on to other young people any information and knowledge
of what the Services are about?
Mr Longson: Unequivocally, it
is a great way for young people to develop their own personal
skills and to learn about teamwork, good communication and the
skills that we want to develop. As you say, a bi-product may be
recruitment. It is interesting that when young people talk to
their friends and discover that they go to cadets they ask what
it is about. That type of statement is very good.
Q143 Mr Havard: I am interested in
the quality of what you get when the Armed Forces do appear. Do
they call themselves military presentation teams? I refer to problem-solving
exercises and putting things into context. My experience is that
the material they use is of high quality and therefore is a resource
for educationalists on which to draw. You suggest that perhaps
they do not draw on it in a way that is consistent and variable
across the piece. Geographical variations seem to be quite significant.
Mr Longson: Who draws on what
will depend on individual schools.
Q144 Mr Havard: My understanding
is that these things happen only by invitation from the school
to the military, so unless the school knows and asks it would
not happen.
Mr Longson: For example, we receive
a full list—I do not know whether it is every term—of
things that are available certainly from the Army, whether it
is about the bands going to Bat and Ball or whatever. It is then
for the careers co-ordinator to decide whether that would be really
good and should be utilised.
Q145 Mr Havard: I notice that some
of the television advertising for the RAF is about science and
how that is related to flying. The military and science—how
that might come into your curriculum in relation to schools and
an understanding of careers—is itself a very interesting
debate. The point made about physics is crucial. I am interested
to learn how people know. You seem to suggest that there is less
activity to promote this and teachers used to go on visits. For
example, are careers people brought together and presented with
all of this in any consistent way by the Ministry of Defence?
The answer is probably no. What do you think could be happening?
Mr Gordon: The answer is no. One
of the problems is that when we start to look at the careers person
working within a school the situation can be very variable. For
example, my colleague is head of careers. I would not say that
is typical of every school. Some schools will have careers co-ordinators.
Increasingly, fewer schools now appoint these people because the
teaching and learning responsibility changes. We do not see the
same level of investment in training teachers as careers co-ordinators.
When that piece of jigsaw is missing it is difficult for any employer,
Armed Forces or otherwise, to penetrate a school and get across
the messages that it wishes to communicate. External independent
expert career advisers come into schools but it does depend on
the key contact in the form of a teacher who is experienced and
trained and has the time to develop a careers curriculum in the
school. Sadly, that is not universally the case and it is patchy.
I do not think the problem is geographical per se; there is no
particular area of the country that is better or worse than that.
I think it happens school by school.
Q146 Mr Havard: If we said that the
Ministry of Defence should be more co-ordinated in the way it
makes its offer you would argue we should say to the various educational
ministries—however many there are these days—that
they should perhaps have an active understanding of receiving
people?
Mr Gordon: Absolutely.
Q147 Mr Havard: Or that careers people
are there to receive offers being made?
Mr Longson: Yes. Another matter
is to allow teachers to go on visits from schools. The implication
for the school curriculum of the head releasing somebody to go
out on a visit is also an issue.
Q148 Mr Jenkin: Do we know what proportion
of schools does receive visits from the Armed Forces?
Mr Gordon: I could not put a figure
on it, but it depends on the individual school. I work across
six local authority areas and I can tell you that in some cases
it is more active just because the schools that collaborate in
that area share information and work better with the Armed Forces.
Q149 Mr Jenkin: You referred earlier
to the duty on schools to provide impartial career guidance. Do
you say that schools that do not admit the Armed Forces into their
premises and allow contact with pupils are failing in that duty?
Mr Gordon: I would say so. In
some skills it is not just the Armed Forces. There is an inability
to bring into the school the world of employment and we need to
do more about that. That must have an impact on the level of information
and knowledge of young people to be able to make decisions. That
does cause a problem.
Q150 Mr Jenkin: Clearly, there is
an ideological problem in respect of some schools and teachers.
How do you think we ought to deal with it?
Mr Gordon: Part of the problem
may lie in the fact that when the Armed Forces do their sales
drives, so to speak, they are very good at it. Obviously, they
tend to feature the benefits, challenges and opportunities that
the forces provide and do not focus quite so much on the conflicts
and perhaps more controversial issues. I believe that is counter-productive.
There are people who say that they sell all the fine benefits
of a life in the forces but they are not so forthcoming about
the perils and other issues. That creates a feeling among some
people that, therefore, they are less inclined to want to support
of the activity.
Q151 Mr Jenkin: The problem does
not lie with young people but the preconceptions and views of
the teachers, governors or education authorities?
Mr Gordon: Yes, in some cases.
Q152 Mr Jenkin: How do you think
we ought to deal with that?
Mr Gordon: I see it as a much
wider issue about being more serious as a nation in helping, supporting
and equipping young people to make decisions whatever their choice
in life might be. I do not think we are very good at that. If
we did that on a level playing field for all career prospects
and opportunities we would overcome some of the difficulties.
Part of the difficulty is that when the Armed Forces can mobilise
quite impressive resources to recruit when other employers and
career areas cannot people become a little suspicious. Maybe the
Army is too prevalent, if you like, and we need to raise the bar
for all areas of career preparation for young people in schools.
Once we do that I believe that the Armed Forces alongside any
other careers in civilian life will benefit.
Q153 Mr Jenkin: Therefore, you are
not looking for the Armed Forces to have some special privileged
access to the education system or to be part of a special programme?
Mr Gordon: No. We need to raise
the game for all career prospects.
Q154 Mr Hamilton: Perhaps I may encourage
you to look at the specific Scottish dimension because it has
a different educational system in operation; it does not have
governors. I would be really surprised if in my area with six
secondary schools an individual had the right to decide whether
or not somebody came in; it would be the education authority that
decided it. I would be really disappointed if they had taken the
decision not to allow the Armed Forces to come in because of their
own views. After all, when I left school career choices were quite
limited. When it was suggested that you go down a coal mine you
were not told that 200 people were killed every year in that industry;
when they asked you to undertake an apprenticeship on a building
site you were not told how many people were killed in the construction
industry. It must be across the board. I agree that it must be
developed in a far more positive way. As an ex-cadet I agree with
you. There is one matter that worries and puzzles me but may simply
be my perception. The Armed Forces now undertake a tripartite
approach to advertising, which is a good thing. People now have
the opportunity to join not only the Army but the Navy and Air
Force. In my area when you left school for the vast majority of
people below a certain grade the choices were the Army, the collieries
or the textile industry. In the past I used to go to galas and
events in my constituency; there were about 30-odd every year.
You always saw the Armed Forces' vehicles there. Rarely do you
see them nowadays. You do not see them in any of the big towns
or settlements. They used to provide a degree of encouragement.
Is that happening a lot less than it used to?
Mr Gordon: I would share that
perception. There is less presence as you describe it at large
conventions. At every careers convention you would see the Armed
Forces; you still do so. More recently, they rely on PowerPoint
presentations and films than bringing a tank through the back
door. There is perhaps an impact in doing it that way.
Mr Longson: There is also a shift
in culture nationally and locally and in the family in terms of
the Armed Forces and people's experience of the Services over
the years has changed. There is a real issue about culture and
how it is perceived—hence the debate that takes place in
some schools.
Q155 Mr Borrow: I want to move to
the question of recruitment standards in the Armed Forces in general
but the Army in particular. There is certainly a perception that
the standard of fitness of recruits has been going down over the
years. Having visited various parts of the Armed Forces it is
one of the issues raised with me. There is a significant number
of people who start the recruitment process and end up not getting
through basic training. There are now proposals to extend basic
training in the Army. Is it your perception having been in the
recruitment sphere for a fair number of years that more youngsters
fail to get through that recruitment programme? If that is the
case is it an issue about the effectiveness of Armed Forces recruitment
in terms of picking the right people? Are the entry standards
for the Armed Forces right or should they be looked at again?
If we start a lot of people on basic training and a fair number
do not emerge at the other end we must ask ourselves whether we
have the initial selection right. Do you have any views on that?
Mr Gordon: One of the things that
impressed me in my early time in careers advice was the efficiency
of the Services, particularly the Army, in terms of its recruitment.
It had a very low tolerance level in terms of people who did not
complete training. It was a big investment and it was very mindful
of that. There has been perceptibly a slight increase in the numbers
of people who do not complete basic training. There may be a number
of issues. For example, the basic health of young people nowadays—obesity,
etc—is very well publicised. I do not know whether that
is an issue. It also depends on the reason the young person makes
the choice. In an area like Merseyside, for example, the attraction
to join the Army is not the notion of serving abroad in conflict
areas but the trade. He can learn motor mechanics, engineering,
etc, to a very high level. The trades are very well equipped and
young people go in for that reason without seeing the other aspects,
namely that it is much more than a job; it is a career. You sign
up for more than just basic training or skill training. We need
to prepare young people more for the rounded choice they make
when they join the Armed Forces. They can train to a very high
technical level in particular trades, but there is another aspect
to the choice to be made.
Mr Longson: As to physical fitness,
there are issues about the general health of the population. It
may also be a matter of access to sport, PE in schools and the
level of provision there. If that is not available those who are
being recruited will not necessarily have the required physical
fitness.
Q156 Mr Borrow: One matter highlighted
in the MoD report was not simply fitness. It referred to changes
to the BMI index for recruits now. It also referred to motivation
which ties in with what people regard joining the Armed Forces
as being all about. You can get people fit if you keep them in
long enough and they go through the fitness programme, but if
their motivation is not right they will fall by the wayside.
Mr Longson: I think motivation
is linked to the career decision in the first place. If they understand
the career decision they have made maybe the motivation will be
longer-lasting.
Q157 Mr Borrow: Are you saying that
when the recruitment process takes place the focus needs to be
not simply on joining the Armed Forces because you can learn a
trade and be set up for life, etc; it also has to do with some
of the downsides and risks involved?
Mr Longson: When I do my career
guidance with people I challenge them on the moral issues of the
decisions they are making. I think that must be done as part of
the decision mechanism.
Mr Gordon: I believe that is the
crux of impartiality. Often people talk of impartial guidance
and assume it is rather equivocal; it is not. A good careers adviser
will challenge somebody to think through the consequences of the
choice they make, whether or not it is the Armed Forces, and investigate
fully what it means. Obviously, in a career such as the Armed
Forces the choices you make are not simply where you will be between
the hours of nine and five. Therefore, you need to do more to
encourage and ensure young people make well informed decisions
and understand their importance and what they lead to, not just
the trades and skills they can get but the wider life for which
they are signing up.
Q158 Mr Borrow: Do you suggest that
as part of the Committee's inquiry into the whole area and its
visits to recruitment centres including basic training it ought
to focus somewhat on the extent to which recruits get a rounded
picture of what life in the military is all about and the extent
to which the Services are giving that picture in the initial few
weeks?
Mr Gordon: Yes.
Mr Longson: It is also the next
link back; it is the link with the recruit between the liaison
officers and the schools. As I said earlier, it is about a partnership.
Q159 Mr Havard: If you were talking
to individuals about the need to make rounded decisions what would
you say about where they should go and how they should do it?
What resources would you have available to you to help them do
that and where would you point them?
Mr Longson: In terms of information,
we get that delivered on a regular basis and it is updated in
terms of the recruitment brochures which are in the curricula
in our careers library. In terms of my own professional development,
I read and try to be informed. Therefore, when I am doing work
with young people I would hope that that professionalism in a
sense would come through. The issue of frontline fighting is a
matter that I would bring up.
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