Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1-19)
SIR LESZEK
BORYSIEWICZ, DR
MARK WALPORT,
PROFESSOR MALCOLM
GRANT, AND
MRS LYNN
ROBB
17 DECEMBER 2007
Q1 Chairman: Could I welcome our witnesses
to this, the first evidence session on the UK Centre for Medical
Research and Innovation, thank our witnesses for coming at such
incredibly short notice and welcome Sir Leszek Borysiewicz, the
new Chief Executive of the Medical Research Council; we are delighted
to have you with us and I am sure it will be a fruitful set of
discussions; Dr Mark Walport, Director of the Wellcome Trust;
Professor Malcolm Grant, President and Provost of UCL, welcome
again, and Mrs Lynn Robb, the Chief Financial Officer and Executive
Director of Corporate Resources, Cancer Research UK. Can I certainly
thank you all very much and say that the Committee has a longstanding
interest in what is happening to NIMR. We have had a longstanding
interest before a move to the Temperance Hospital site was mooted
and, indeed, the Committee under Dr Gibson's chairmanship made
some very, very clear recommendations, not only about the urgency
but also in terms of the way that we felt this issue should be
dealt with. Could I, just as a starting point, ask you, Sir Leszek,
why in fact you did not feel it appropriate to even send this
Committee a copy of your proposal?
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: Sorry,
which proposal are you referring to?
Q2 Chairman: The latest Bliss proposal—let
us call them that—before they were renamed?
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: At the
time I took over in October we were already in discussions and
had submitted a document to bid for the site itself, and at that
point it was not forwarded to the Committee here.
Q3 Chairman: It was not even forwarded
to us when the Prime Minister made his statement.
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: I was
requested for information and provided that by return, as soon
as that information was requested, and I then forwarded the appropriate
brochures and things that are relevant to this particular site.
Q4 Ian Stewart: Good afternoon, my
name is Ian Stewart and I am actually a new member of this Select
Committee with an interest in these subjects, so could I ask,
how would you describe in a nutshell the new vision for the UK
Centre for Medical Research and Innovation?
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: The UK
Centre for Medical Research and Innovation is actually part of
a consortium bid. What we are looking at here is a completely
new facility; what we are trying to achieve on this site is to
bring together the high quality and excellence that already exists
at NIMR and alongside the Cancer Research UK facilities, bring
that again alongside the science that is going on at University
College. As a bid it is also being underpinned by support from
the Wellcome Trust in order to ensure that it has appropriate
facilities and the capacity to develop science further. What it
can achieve, I believe, is a question that has been raised in
the past: it can ensure that we have appropriate capacity to be
able to undertake science and do that science in a collaborative
way across a whole spectrum of biological sciences, interfaced
not just with the biological sciences at University College but
also with the physical and other sciences that are so important
for future activity. Also the location places it critically alongside
the most important biomedical centres for future translation.
That is what I believe, in a nutshell, we actually are trying
to achieve in relationship to this centre.
Dr Walport: British biomedical
science is world class; it will only stay world class if it moves
with the times, so we are moving into a phase where it is important
to be able to do multidisciplinary research, it is important to
bring together biologists with mathematicians, with physicists,
and so this is a fantastic opportunity to create a new state-of-the-art,
inter-disciplinary facility. Training will be an important part
of it and its co-location next to the British Library where getting
information out is also crucial; this is about creating a new,
world class institution.
Q5 Ian Stewart: Is that why you brought
in new partners, Cancer Research UK and the Wellcome Trust? What
do they bring to it?
Dr Walport: Frankly, the reason
the Wellcome Trust has come into this is because we see an opportunity
to provide synergy, bringing together two great institutes, the
National Institute for Medical Research and the London Research
Institute of CRUK, and we can see that Wellcome Trust funds will
really add value. That is why the trustees of the Wellcome Trust
found it easy to make a decision about this because it is such
an exciting vision.
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: The real
issue is added value; it is not just the Wellcome Trust potentially
working together with the complementarity between the science
at the NIMR and the science at the London Institute, it is also
what is available through University College, through the whole
spectrum of science that is available; coupling that together
with the access to the translational centres in Central London
is a unique opportunity. To do this alone would be virtually impossible
in terms of the scale of what is actually being proposed, it has
to be done in combination with these partnerships and I think
these partnerships strengthen the bid.
Q6 Ian Stewart: Is that the motive
for the partnership with UCL?
Professor Grant: Certainly, the
proposal for the centre is absolutely excellent news and we should
be celebrating it, most vividly because of the way in which the
UK is able to bring charitable funding to underpin what is being
done by the Medical Research Council and by UCL. By "charitable
funding" I mean the funding of Cancer Research UK and also
the Wellcome; as Mark has said the interest of the Wellcome is
to invest in the synergies that this proposal can produce. The
location is critical in this, because remember the last time I
came in front of this Committee we were talking about quite a
different location. This new location has the capacity to bring
together these two institutes, to bring together some of UCL's
own activity but also to interact with other UCL activity, all
of which is within about a quarter of an hour's walk distance
from the site. The types of activity that Sir Leszek has spoken
of include not only the biological sciences but physical sciences—chemistry,
physics, nanotechnology, engineering and, finally, the translational
opportunities that are provided by our key partner hospitals in
the centre of London: UCLH, Great Ormond Street, Moorfields, the
National Hospital in Queen's Square. This geographical co-location
must in itself be quite a unique phenomenon, at least in Europe.
Q7 Chairman: Previously, with the
greatest of respect, Dr Walport, the same vision was there for
the Temperance Hospital site, we have been here before, and at
that point the Wellcome Trust kept well out of it, Cancer Research
kept well out of it. Why are you both in on this bid rather than
the previous one?
Dr Walport: Because the footprint
allows something that the Temperance site simply did not allow.
Q8 Chairman: Why did you not speak
out on that then and say that it was not feasible?
Dr Walport: Because our primary
aim is not as it were to interfere in the running of the Medical
Research Council; this was a decision that they had taken and
we immediately saw the opportunity when this site became available
as an option.
Q9 Chairman: Cancer Research UK,
Mrs Robb? Why now?
Mrs Robb: Why now? The opportunity
for us now is absolutely timely. Our institute in Central London,
world class as it is, has reached a point where we need to undertake
significant investment to keep ourselves at the forefront and,
actually, our most recent five year review of the Institute reaffirmed
its status but had some concerns about its longevity as a building.
We are committed to invest in the future of that Institute, so
this opportunity as it came up this year is absolutely timely
for us and we are incredibly excited about the opportunity it
gives us.
Q10 Chairman: Sir Leszek, in terms
of the purchase of this new site, are you confident that in three,
four or five years time we will not be back exactly where we were?
Why is this going to be successful whereas the previous MRC bid
was not?
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: Firstly,
we have already addressed the size question and that synergy actually
ensures the world class that we are really trying to aim for.
Secondly, we just have to look at the potential capacity of that
site; at the end of the day our initial calculations would be
that we are looking at a site with, potentially, 85,000 square
metres of space which would equate to about 1500 people being
able to occupy that site effectively, plus the capacity on that
site to put in the sorts of facilities that are going to be necessary
to do the science. That is a world apart from looking at the 0.34
hectare site that we were looking at at the National Temperance
Hospital and that is what really makes it a very different proposition.
I have to say that the strength of the partnership working together
with the three partners here gives us the opportunity to say that
this looks likely to be the right positioning for this new development.
Q11 Chairman: Could you just talk
the Committee briefly through? As I understand it the site is
owned currently by DCMS. It is up for sale.
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: Yes.
Q12 Chairman: The bid is going to
come in through the Wellcome Trust, who will initially buy the
site, and we will come back to funding a little bit later—forget
sums, I am just talking about the mechanism now so that when we
get on to funding we understand it. Funds from the Wellcome Trust
will actually buy the site; when it is purchased it will then
be moved into another vehicle, which will have a number of partners.
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: Yes.
Q13 Chairman: Is the next vehicle
then to privatise the whole thing?
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: No.
Dr Walport: Can I respond to that
because I think that the Diamond—
Q14 Chairman: Is that true or not,
is that a possibility that it could then go to a govco or out
into the private sector?
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: No, it
is not the intention here at all.
Q15 Chairman: Is it possible for
that to happen?
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: No, because
it would require the acquiescence of the four partners that are
dealing with this particular bid. Yes, there will have to be a
special purpose vehicle in order to enable us to build this effectively
and to make sure that we have streamlined and clear project management
in terms of the activity, but it is not the intention in any shape
or form that it is to become some sort of privatised entity.
Q16 Chairman: We can scotch that
rumour.
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: Certainly.
Dr Walport: The model for this
would be, for example, the Diamond Synchrotron[1]
because there has always got to be a mechanism for a partnership
between the charitable sector and government through the MRC,
and for that to be done a joint venture was set up which had its
own board and that is the vehicle through which we can fund the
construction and the development of the institute. A joint venture
is probably the way it is going to be done. In terms of how it
is being acquired—how the cashflow is dealt with is one
matter—it will be acquired on behalf of the partnership.
Chairman: Thank you, it was important
just to clear that up. Dr Gibson.
Q17 Dr Gibson: In your deliberations
about where to site this, I was always amazed that you might not
have considered other places like, for example, I remember when
Dundee suddenly got a high class place and because of one or two
excellent people going there it is world class now; did you consider
other places in terms of the good people doing great science in
other parts of the country and trying to balance the country off
in terms of science in the South as against science in the North;
was that a consideration?
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: In looking
at the options for this particular site we did look at alternative
proposals.
Q18 Dr Gibson: North of Watford?
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: North
of Watford, actually very much north of Watford, but this still
came out top through the appraisal process that we actually were
looking at, and that included also looking at an option for the
status quo.
Q19 Dr Gibson: You are getting Paul
Nurse in there to discuss the details of the site, but has he
got a committee yet, or is he going to appoint it?
Sir Leszek Borysiewicz: He is
going to be involved in the appointment of that committee and
he is, at the present time, looking at the membership of that
committee.
1 Note from the witness: Diamond Light Source
Limited was established as a private company limited by shares
in March 2002 to design, build, own and operate the Diamond synchrotron
facility. The shareholders in Diamond are the Wellcome Trust (see
annex 1 for a history of the Trust's involvement) and the Science
and Technology Facilities Council (STFC). STFC replaced the Central
Laboratory of the Research Councils (CCLRC) as a shareholder on
1 April 2007, following the merger of CCLRC and the Particle Physics
and Astronomy Research Council (PPARC). The Trust holds a 14%
share in Diamond and STFC holds 86%. The project is based at the
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory in Oxfordshire and is the largest
scientific facility to be built in the UK for over 30 years. Back
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