Examination of Witnesses (Questions 460-477)
JONATHAN SHAW
MP, MS HELOISE
TIERNEY AND
MS ANN
BENNETT
18 JUNE 2008
Q460 Miss McIntosh: How do you define
a difficult area? Could it be a park and garden or dedicated land?
How do you define dedicated land?
Jonathan Shaw: I hope that difficulties
do not arise because of the various points and duties etc., that
I have articulated. If that happens, obviously that will be something
that Natural England will be able to consider deploying in order
to provide a way forward or a solution.
Ms Tierney: In many cases, the
line of the route will be mapped as required under the 1949 Act.
In many cases, the spreading room will be between that line and
the sea so that in the vast majority of cases it would be fairly
clear without an additional map.
Q461 Miss McIntosh: You are not expecting
the sums to run away? It was originally 28 million.
Jonathan Shaw: Exactly. We are
mindful of how the sums did increase substantially. You would
expect us to make provision to make sure that does not happen
again. In terms of this one major aspect, that is one of the reasons
why we do not want to do that, but we do not rule it out completely.
Q462 Paddy Tipping: We have spoken
outside the Committee about Stephen Crabb's Private Member's Bill,
the Animal Act amendment. Potentially, the coastal path for coastal
access is going to bring people more into touch with animals.
I asked Natural England whether one might widen the scope of the
Bill to include the Stephen Crabb proposal because it has widespread
support both in Parliament and outside Parliament. Natural England
said, you will be pleased to hear, "This is a matter for
the Minister." What is the Minister's view?
Jonathan Shaw: As the Chairman
said, it is only 300 clauses. It is a pretty modest Bill compared
to perhaps some of the Finance Bills that he took through the
House. We put a lot of time, effort and resources into supporting
Stephen's Bill and we do need to provide this clarification for
the equestrian industry. It is an important industry. The CLA
now have a postcard campaign and MPs are asking me. I suppose
on reflection it is a bit disappointing that that postcard campaign
did not come in advance of Stephen's Bill. Fridays are always
gold dust for Members of Parliament but not enough MPs turned
up, which is a shame.
Q463 Mr Gray: Andrew Dismore talked
it out.
Jonathan Shaw: It was not talked
out. There were not enough MPs for it to be quorate.
Q464 Mr Gray: That of course is correct.
At 25 past two, there was a vote called. There were not enough
MPs to do it. Andrew Dismore made it perfectly plain that he would
have talked it out and he saw this as an alternative way of killing
the Bill.
Jonathan Shaw: He could not have
talked it out. If it had been quorate, it would have gone through
for second reading and we would have had the committee stage.
Nevertheless, I do support this. We have a major undertaking.
Whilst it is a modestly sized Bill, it is a ground breaking Bill
and there are complexities to it. We have the coastal access.
I will consider whether that is a possibility as time goes on.
I am not hostile to it but obviously, whether it is this or other
means, I would very much like to see it on the statute book. As
I have asked Natural England when they are undertaking the route
to look for opportunities for people, for other uses, there may
well be opportunities for people to horse ride on the coastal
path. Again, that will have to come through agreement and there
will have to be important criteria. It may well be that many people
in the equestrian industry do complain that there is not sufficient
opportunity to ride horses and it is not satisfactory for people
to go on the roads. If we can provide the opportunity and there
is the flexibility and the agreement, we should seek to do that.
Natural England have available a challenge fund which might assist
with that.
Q465 Paddy Tipping: In technical
terms, it will be possible to widen the scope of the Bill to change
the title to enable Stephen Crabb's Bill to become part of a new,
wider Marine Bill. You cannot talk for the government but you
are not personally unsympathetic to that approach?
Jonathan Shaw: I hope I have indicated
that.
Q466 David Taylor: We have looked
at mapping. Let us look at maintenance. The Bill does reduce the
occupier's liability for the Secretary of State and Natural England
in terms of preparation of route and Natural England not erecting
warning signs regarding hazards. They have a reduced liability
in those circumstances but Natural England's liabilities for injuries
caused by inadequate maintenance of the routes or infrastructure
are not limited. It is still not very clear who would be liable
in these situations. A poorly maintained access way for instance
might break under proper usage, causing injury. Who would be liable
in those circumstances? Natural England or the access authority?
Ms Bennett: If Natural England
have installed the means of access, they would continue to be
liable. It depends upon who has installed the means of access
at the outset and what sort of agreement there was, whether there
was some sort of delegation. It will depend on the particular
circumstances but there is nothing in the Bill to exempt liability
for those things. Somebody would continue to be liable.
Q467 David Taylor: There is no duty
of care for not erecting warning signs, is there?
Ms Bennett: No, that is right.
Q468 David Taylor: If they do erect
them, they can fall into disrepair or get overgrown, knocked over
by animals or whatever. Injury is sustained because of the existence
of that. Who would be liable at that point?
Jonathan Shaw: I will be corrected
if I am wrong, but it is all based on what is reasonable. Mr Cox
is no longer in the room. He is the epitome of reasonableness.
Q469 David Taylor: He is writing
an editorial for The Daily Mail.
Jonathan Shaw: That would be a
marked change for reasonableness. We do not want signs everywhere.
Q470 David Taylor: No one has asked
for that. We need signs somewhere.
Jonathan Shaw: If signs need to
be placed for particular reasons, then obviously those signs need
to be maintained.
Q471 David Taylor: Stiles? Bridges?
Jonathan Shaw: Of course. Anything
that is put in to aid the coastal path needs to be maintained
and there will be a programme of work to ensure that they are
inspected and routinely maintained.
Q472 David Taylor: By?
Jonathan Shaw: By Natural England.
Q473 David Taylor: Or the access
authority?
Jonathan Shaw: Or the access authority.
If they knowingly do not repair or fall down on their repairs,
they would be liable if someone injured themselves. The coast
is a dangerous area.
Q474 David Taylor: Going back to
almost our first point, it may be that the budget available will
not stretch to providing adequate, timely maintenance along the
whole infrastructure. That is a possibility, is it not?
Jonathan Shaw: We do not foresee
that because of the reasons I have set out.
Q475 David Lepper: We had some concerns
expressed to us last week, I think it was, by local authorities
about a lack of clarity in the Bill about responsibilities for
maintenance of the coastal path and whether that was for Natural
England, the Highway Authority in some cases, the access authority
or all. Do you feel that the Bill is clear enough about where
those responsibilities lie for maintenance of the coastal path,
because that might have an effect obviously on these issues of
liability that David Taylor mentioned.
Jonathan Shaw: Natural England
will be responsible for the cost of the implementation. They will
either undertake it or they will pay another authority. Natural
England will pay for the maintenance over the implementation period.
After that, it will contribute to the costs of that maintenance.
There are partnership arrangements for trails with local authorities
and Natural England. They exist now. It will be important after
that period to ensure that Natural England has the resources to
see that the network that we will have in place then is properly
maintained. That will be a burden that the public purse will have
to meet. Otherwise, we will find ourselves in the situation that
David Taylor referred to. In terms of the contribution for local
authorities, of course it is a reasonable point for them to say,
"What is going to happen in ten years when we have all these
additional, extra paths?" We need to ensure that they are
resourced in order to do that. Absolutely. We will work with them.
Natural England will as well, to ensure that we are clear about
that.
Q476 Chairman: We have thrashed our
way round this. You can see where the Committee may still have
some doubts and concerns. In light of any of the areas where you
have agreed to supply some further information or if you want
to qualify in writing some of the things you have put to us for
greater clarity, we would be delighted to hear from you and your
colleagues. Mr Cox raised some human rights legislation points
earlier on. Is the advice that Defra has received in legal terms
its own or have you had advice from the law officers on that?
Ms Bennett: We have not had advice
from law officers but we have taken outside, legal advice.
Q477 Chairman: If you wanted to put
in writing some clarificatory points, we would be delighted to
hear from you. Sitting where I am, I do have the advantage that
I can see the members of the public. I noted that one or two either
smiled or shook their heads at various points when exchanges were
going on.
Jonathan Shaw: That does not surprise
me. I have sat there as well.
David Taylor: You will again.
Chairman: The opportunity still exists,
if there is something that you heard that you radically disagree
with, to drop us a line. The door remains open but not for too
long. Thank you very much indeed to you, Minister, and to your
officials for coming along and giving evidence. We are going to
go out and about and look at some coastal situations ourselves,
as you have done, to try and get a practical perspective on this.
Then we will come to some conclusions.
David Taylor: I think the Minister has
reassured us that we shall never in the future see a Daily
Mail headline about hairy, urban ramblers tramping through
a widow's clifftop garden. That is the sort of thing we have to
avoid.
Chairman: I think that is a very good
closing note. Thank you very much.
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