Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
THE HON
OSBOURNE FLEMING,
DR THE
HON LOWELL
LEWIS AND
DR THE
HON MICHAEL
E. MISICK LLB, MLC
3 DECEMBER 2007
Q80 Mr. Horam: You do? Return most
of them?
Michael E. Misick: Yes.
Q81 Mr. Horam: Most of them you send
back?
Michael E. Misick: Yes.
Q82 Mr. Horam: That was all I wanted
to know.
Mr. Lewis, you acknowledged in your memorandum
to the Committee that you have some serious disagreements with
the UK Government about the new constitution. [1]Would
you like to enlarge on that?
Lowell Lewis: There are a few
outstanding issues—one or two of which we resolved today,
in fact—on the powers of the Governor and the desire to
introduce a national advisory council that would assist the Governor
with their powers. There was a suggestion that the Governor should
be allowed to access the budget. These matters are under discussion.
We have completed four rounds of talks, and we have scheduled
the next round.
Q83 Mr. Horam: So they are negotiable,
you think?
Lowell Lewis: Yes. In fact, I
believe that, following today's meeting, the next time we meet,
in March, we will make some progress on some issues, but we are
not rushing it this time.
Q84 Mr. Horam: When do you expect
the process to be concluded?
Lowell Lewis: It is possible that
by next summer, we will be at a stage where we are able to meet
the Ministers to resolve the issues and the differences that can
be resolved only by Ministers. After that, we may come to a conclusion.
Q85 Mr. Horam: Mr. Fleming, your
constitutional talks are stalled. When do you expect them to restart?
Osbourne Fleming: Early next year.
Come January, we hope that they will start again. As you know,
we were supposed to have our first visit in September, but it
was stalled because the people of Anguilla decided to revisit
the commission's recommendations, and the feeling that emerged
was that there should be full internal self-government. That is
where we are now. We must go to the people as a whole, sell this
message and see how it is received. That is the way we are going
to go forward, so we hope that early next year we will start the
process.
Mr. Horam: Thank you.
Q86 Sir John Stanley: May we turn
to some governance issues? Dr. Misick, the inquiry has aroused
enormous interest in the Turks and Caicos Islands. At my last
count, about one third of the total written submissions so far
to the Committee, covering all the Overseas Territories, had come
from the Turks and Caicos. I am sure you know also that a group
of Opposition political figures flew especially to London to have
an informal meeting with members of the Committee.
It is clear from the representations we have
received that some believe substantial financial impropriety is
taking place in the Turks and Caicos. Allegations have been made
about corruption, including at government level. I make it wholly
clear on the record that the Committee has reached no view and
no conclusion on that; it is for the Committee at the end of its
inquiry to produce its report to the House and for submission
to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. Having said that, I should
like to hear your response to the allegations that some have made
about significant corruption—including within the Government—in
the Turks and Caicos.
Michael E. Misick: I have not
seen any submissions, but on the general allegation of corruption,
from a government standpoint, we categorically deny that there
is any corruption at government level in the Turks and Caicos.
As a matter of fact, an anti-corruption Bill is on first reading
in Parliament, and we intend it to go through during the first
quarter next year. Unfortunately, in small countries such as ours
there are always allegations of corruption, particularly from
our opposition activists coming out of an election. Much of what
is alleged cannot be substantiated. It is unfortunate that potential
leaders would try to put the good name of a country through the
mud by making such allegations.
We have a transparent system when it comes to
tendering. We have a tenders board that deals with that. In relation
to allocation of Crown land, there is a process in place by which,
at a ministry level, land is allocated to different citizens.
In relation to other areas, our Parliament has a register of interests.
My position is that the Turks and Caicos government
are a transparent government. We uphold all modern legislation
to support that transparency and to ensure that corruption does
not rear its ugly head in our territory.
Q87 Sir John Stanley: Do you consider
that responsibility for dealing with any corruption that might
arise lies solely with the government of the Turks and Caicos,
or do you look to the UK for support or assistance? Do you believe
that a measure of responsibility to help you deal with this lies
with the UK as well as with your own government?
Michael E. Misick: I would say
that we both have responsibility for good government. Obviously,
the UK has ultimate responsibility for good governance of the
territories. For example, over the years, when there has been
a question about the police, the matter is within the ambit of
the Governor. We have an independent, non-politically appointed
Attorney-General who is responsible for prosecutions. All the
institutions are in place to deal with corruption and to bring
to justice anyone who has perhaps been participating in that.
It is easy, particularly for opposition activists who are still
sore about losing the election, to claim that there is corruption.
Q88 Sir John Stanley: On this specific
issue, do you feel that whether an individual is granted belonger
status or not is free from any corrupt practices?
Michael E. Misick: It is free
from corrupt practices, because belonger status is granted by
the Cabinet; no one individual grants belonger status. With the
exception of marriage, belonger status is granted on the basis
of the length of time that a person has stayed in the country,
the contribution that they have made to the country, and how they
are assimilated into the community. There are a number of factors
that are laid out by law in the granting of belonger status.
Q89 Andrew Mackinlay: Just to clarify—belonger
status is granted by the Cabinet?
Michael E. Misick: It is.
Q90 Andrew Mackinlay: Does the Governor
sit at Cabinet?
Michael E. Misick: He chairs the
Cabinet.
Q91 Andrew Mackinlay: So, if there
were allegations of corruption with regards to the Cabinet granting
belonger status, that would apply to the Governor as well as the
members?
Michael E. Misick: He is the President
of the Cabinet.
Q92 Andrew Mackinlay: Yes, I wanted
to establish that.
Michael E. Misick: There is a
process to the granting of belonger status.
Q93 Andrew Mackinlay: Yes of course.
I did not mean to cut you short. I understand that point. It might
be useful to have a note on how, and who and what the process
is.
Michael E. Misick: The process
is that the Governor is President of the Cabinet. He acts on the
advice of Cabinet, and where he does not take Cabinet's advice,
he can consult with the Secretary of State. For example, if he
thought that the Cabinet was granting a belonger status that had
a corrupt undertone, he would not have to accept Cabinet's advice.
Mike Gapes took the Chair.
Q94 Andrew Mackinlay: Particularly
in relation to your jurisdiction but also in relation to that
of your colleagues, I am told that you do not see anything much
of the Royal Navy. A good-will boat might occasionally look in,
but they are not patrolling around your jurisdiction or others,
preventing illegal immigration, are they?
Michael E. Misick: No, they are
not. From time to time they make visits, perhaps because they
happen to be in the area, but they do not patrol.
Q95 Andrew Mackinlay: Also, in reply
to my colleague, you said that you return Haitian illegal immigrants,
but presumably you should have added that you do so to the best
of your ability. This very day, there are in your jurisdiction
Haitians and—I am not sure whether they are in secure areas—kiddies.
Michael E. Misick: What is that?
Andrew Mackinlay: Children.
Michael E. Misick: Yes.
Q96 Andrew Mackinlay: And there is
a big debate about what the human rights obligations are to the
children as regards schooling and so on, is there not?
Michael E. Misick: There was a
debate prior to my party coming into office. We have taken the
position that all children, whether or not they are legal, have
a right to education. We have therefore allowed all children to
attend our schools once they reach a certain age. As a matter
of fact, there are a number of kids whose parents have left them
in the islands and maybe gone on to Miami; that is the way that
the trade is in trafficking humans. We have regularised the situation
for most of them in the Turks and Caicos; prior to that, they
were stateless. We could not send them back to Haiti as they did
not come with any documents and they grew up in the islands.
Q97 Andrew Mackinlay: So you are
saying to me that this afternoon there are a number of children
who, to all intents and purposes, have been abandoned in the Turks
and Caicos. There may or may not be some remuneration coming from
Florida or wherever, but there are children who have come on boats
and you are having to pick up the tab for their education, which
I endorse—
Michael E. Misick: And health
care.
Andrew Mackinlay: And health care. What
do Her Majesty's Government in London say about that? Surely they
should not only be assisting you but sending a gunboat, presumably.
I am just bewildered.
Michael E. Misick: If we could
get assistance, I would be really appreciative.
Q98 Andrew Mackinlay: Has London
done anything? What has it done?
Michael E. Misick: We get no financial
assistance in relation to that from the United Kingdom. As I said,
Navy ships come into the waters periodically, but the burden of
policing lies with the Turks and Caicos government.
Q99 Andrew Mackinlay: How many people—a
broad-brush figure, if needs be—are illegal immigrants in
your jurisdiction today, and what percentage of the total population?
Michael E. Misick: We have an
approximate population of 40,000. I think that probably anything
up to a quarter—maybe 10 or 20%—are illegal, primarily
Haitian people.
1 Not printed. Provided to the Committee in confidence.
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