Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280-299)
MEG MUNN
MP, LEIGH TURNER
AND SUSAN
DICKSON
26 MARCH 2008
Q280 Sir John Stanley: Minister,
you may wish to be aware that at the present time the largest
number of memorandums that the Committee has received from a single
overseas territory has come from the Turks and Caicos Islands—both
public memorandums and those sent to us privately. In our recent
visit we discovered that in the Turks and Caicos Islands there
is no prohibition on Ministers having commercial business positions
while they are serving as Ministers, and there is no publicly
accessible register of Ministers' interests. The single largest
and most valuable traded commodity in the Turks and Caicos islands
is Crown land released for development, and there are no publicly
accessible texts of planning applications. Also, the electorate
is a mere 7,000 and a considerable number of people inside and
outside Government are related to each other.
Against that background I hope that you would
agree that a key responsibility of the Foreign and Commonwealth
Office is to give the utmost support to, and ensure the continuity
of appointment of, the handful of people in the Turks and Caicos
Islands who are appointed by the Foreign Office from outside and
are therefore independent of local political pressures: in particular,
the Governor, the Chief Justice, the Attorney-General and the
Chief Auditor. Is not it therefore a matter of the utmost concern
that when the Attorney-General's office was subject to an arson
attack a few months ago and he sought additional security protection
from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, he was told that it
was not a matter for the FCO, even though it has specific responsibility
under the constitution for internal security in the Turks and
Caicos Islands?
Is not it a matter of equal concern that the
Chief Auditor, whose term of office expires about today, and who
is about to leave the islands, if he has not done so already,
is not being replaced, because the FCO has not found a replacement
for him, and that that appointment is now the subject of a local
job share by existing members of his staff? I put it to you, Minister,
that that is a quite shocking display of lack of support of key
personnel in the Turks and Caicos Islands, and of singular lack
of competence in ensuring continuity of appointment.
Meg Munn: If I can respond to
the wider issues first, I agree absolutely about the importance
of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office supporting key personnel
there. I also agree with you about the importance of those people,
because they are not subject to local political pressures. A lot
of what we look at in terms of good governance recognises that
some of the problems that we encounter in overseas territories
are as much a factor of them being small island communities as
they are of them being overseas territories. Therefore, the relationships
and pressures that you described are something that we have to
be very aware of. I will ask Leigh to deal with the positions
of Attorney-General and Chief Auditor.
Leigh Turner: The Governor clearly
works very closely with the Attorney-General in the Turks and
Caicos Islands, as in any territory. I know that they discuss
all matters frequently. To be quite honest with you, I had not
heard about the issue of the Attorney-General requesting security
and being refused. That is the first time that I have heard that.
Clearly, security in the TCI is a gubernatorial
responsibility, but at the same time, operational police matters
are dealt with in the TCI itself, and the money for policing comes
from the TCI Government. What happens in practice is that all
those matters are discussed regularly between the Governor and
the police. I know that the Governor has a weekly police briefing
from the head of the police force on what has been happening and
what can be done, so I will be happy to look into that question.
Similarly, I am afraid that I am unsighted on the Chief Auditor
not being replaced. We will have to get back to you on that one.[5]
Q281 Sir John Stanley: Minister,
I have listened to your official, and I must say that I am shocked
and appalled by the response that he has given on those two issues.
It is disgraceful that apparently nobody in the Foreign Office
is aware that the Attorney-General requested additional security
after the arson attack on his office and was fobbed off with,
"This is not a matter for the Foreign Office," and it
is quite appalling that your Department in London is unaware that
we face a key vacancy, this minute, in the post of Chief Auditor.
Meg Munn: I agree that they are
important issues. Obviously, we have not been made aware of them.
We need to find out why, and we will give that great priority.
Q282 Mr. Pope: When we hold any inquiry,
the Committee receives lots of written evidence. Typically, the
senders of a handful of that evidence request confidentiality,
but for the TCI, a large number of people did. That is of real
concern. I am finding it hard to put that in context, but the
only other place that I have been where people have insisted on
such confidentiality was the People's Republic of China. I am
shocked that people are doing that in a country that has the Union
Jack on the flag. What is your view?
Meg Munn: In relation to the specific
issue about allegations and concerns, I am very concerned to hear
that people have such a level of worry that they will be passed
on. I have, obviously, looked on your Committee's website for
the ones that have been made public, but I understand that a significant
amount have not. We take extremely seriously issues of allegations
and corruption. I have had discussions with the Government about
it.
I also discussed the general issues that Sir
John Stanley raised about Crown land with the Premier when he
was here in December. There have been a number of attempts to
obtain firm evidence about it. There was a process some time back
where police officers from the UK went to the Turks and Caicos
Islands to take evidence and information about it, but insufficient
evidence was provided to take the matter forward. There have been
other issues exactly the same where that has not been possible
and people have not followed through, despite reassurances about
confidentiality and how such things happen.
I am very exercised about what I hear about
your visit there. It gives me great concern that there continue
to be allegations that are not being substantiated, and I think
that we need to look in more detail at the whole situation there.
There are a number of legislative measures in progress to improve
some of the matters that Sir John Stanley raised. We will need
to continue to keep them in mind to see whether they deliver greater
transparency and confidence in the systems.
Q283 Mr. Pope: Will you keep an open
mind as to whether there should be a commission of inquiry by
a British judge, because there are serious concerns? I do not
expect you to answer yes or no to having a commission of inquiry,
but will you at least keep an open mind?
Meg Munn: I have a completely
open mind on that. If the Committee wishes Susan Dickson to give
some of the legal bases on which a commission of inquiry could
be established, I am very happy for that to happen. So far, there
has not been sufficient evidence to proceed with one. Obviously,
it is a serious matter to take forward a commission of inquiry,
and we would want to do so on the basis of good evidence. My mind
is completely open on that, and if we had that evidence we would
want to see that happen.
Q284 Mr. Keetch: The three of us
were quite astonished by what we discovered. There are three communities
on the Turks and Caicos Islands: the belongers, who are not just
those born and bred on the island, because people can be given
belonger status by the Government, often at short notice; the
long-term expatriates; and those who want to gain belonger status,
but are not necessarily expats. Concerns were expressed in all
three communities, not just one.
I want to ask you a specific question. When
we visited the Cayman Islands, the Governor had instituted a commission
of inquiry, without the Cabinet's knowledge, which is due to report
either at the beginning of the week or almost immediately. Can
you make it absolutely clear—I echo what Mr. Pope said about
not saying yes or no to any inquiry—whether the Governor
of the Turks and Caicos Islands could order a commission of inquiry
without consulting the Cabinet or the Chief Minister on the island?
I want to be clear about whether the Governor's powers are the
same as those that we understand were exercised by the Governor
of the Cayman Islands recently.
Meg Munn: I should like to ask
Susan Dickson to explain this, because we have looked into it
since receiving the feedback from your visit. I should also like
us to clarify what the Governor of the Cayman Islands did, so
that everyone is absolutely clear about the relevant powers and
processes and how they work.
Susan Dickson: Commissions of
inquiry are dealt with in local legislation rather than in the
constitutions of the Overseas Territories. Both the Cayman Islands
and the Turks and Caicos Islands have a Commissions of Inquiry
Ordinance that governs the creation and operation of commissions
of inquiry. I have here the ordinance of the Turks and Caicos
Islands: it allows the Governor to appoint commissioners to inquire
into the conduct and management of any public body, the conduct
of any public officer, or into any matter whatsoever which is,
in his opinion, of public importance. The Governors of both the
Cayman Islands and the Turks and Caicos Islands have discretion
to set up such commissions, so they do not have to act on the
instructions or advice of anyone else.
Meg Munn: May I ask Leigh Turner
to explain what happened in the Cayman Islands, so that we are
absolutely clear? There is an interesting aspect to the issue
that he will explain.
Leigh Turner: I shall attempt
to explain it; Susan will correct me if I get any of it wrong.
The Governor proposed to hold a commission of inquiry, but the
Cabinet did not want it to go ahead, thinking that it was unnecessary
in Cayman, and declined to fund it. Of course, the Cabinet has
control of the purse strings. At that point, the Governor consulted
the Foreign Office and said, "We think that it is very important
to hold a commission of inquiry; please will you give me instructions
to overrule the Cabinet," which is the way that it happens.
We consulted Ministers and agreed that it was important, so the
Governor was issued with instructions to overrule the Cayman Islands
Cabinet in order to allow a commission of inquiry to be set up.
Q285 Mr. Keetch: So let us be quite
clear: if the office of the Attorney-General—our appointment—is
attacked, he will require money from the local police and voted
for by the local government to protect him, and if the Governor
wants to appoint a commission of inquiry, which he has the power
to do, without consulting the Cabinet, he expects it to pay for
it, but we will not pay for it. That sounds ridiculous. If I were
a Governor of one of these places, and wanted to appoint a commission
of inquiry, I would expect Her Majesty's Government to pay, even
though it might be looking into aspects of management of that
territory—I am not saying that that is the case here—that
are directly affected by whether it would pay for it. Can you
give us an assurance that, if the Governor of the Turks and Caicos
Islands wanted to commission an inquiry, and the local Cabinet
refused to fund it, we would?
Leigh Turner: We would not need
to, because we could issue an instruction to overrule it.
Q286 Mr. Keetch: And he could do
that without previously consulting the Cabinet?
Leigh Turner: It would not be
the normal way of doing business for the Governor by himself to
do something like that without consulting the Cabinet.
Q287 Mr. Keetch: But he could?
Leigh Turner: In theory, yes,
but we usually try to do things by consensus.
Susan Dickson: The point is that
the Governor needs the power to do that on his own, because he
might be looking into what the Government have done—the
rest of it, because he is a part of it. He might be looking into
the conduct of a Minister. If it was reliant on him getting permission
from the Cabinet to set up the commission, it could obviously
block it. The other thing to remember is that this is a local
inquiry conducted under local legislation. It is not a UK inquiry.
The Governor is acting as the Queen's representative in the territory
and in right of that territory, not as the UK's representative.
Q288 Mr. Keetch: I accept that, but
there was some confusion about this: if he wanted to, could the
Governor appoint a commission of inquiry?
Meg Munn: Yes.
Q289 Mr. Pope: On a separate issue,
but still relating to the Turks and Caicos Islands, one of the
other things that struck us while we were there were the extraordinary
problems that its Government are having with illegal immigration—they
discover about 400 or 500 illegal immigrants a week, which is
an astonishing number. They also estimated—although it is
very difficult to judge—that the actual number of illegal
immigrants might be double that, but that they are only catching
half of them. They have a detention facility before returning
the illegal immigrants to Haiti, which we looked at. It is safe
to say, in life's lottery, we were all pleased that we were not
in the detention facility for long. Can the British Government
provide any further help to the Turks and Caicos Islands either
to do with the detention facility or with assisting them in catching
those illegal immigrants? They told us that things are noticeably
better when a British frigate is patrolling the territorial waters,
during the hurricane season, providing radar and technical assistance.
Are the British Government willing to do anything?
Meg Munn: The illegal immigration
issue is complex, because it also relates to those working on
the Turks and Caicos Islands. As is the case with all immigration,
it is not just a matter of what happens externally—patrol
ships or whatever—but of labour markets and so on. The Government
of the Turks and Caicos Islands need to be more active in relation
to work permits and clamping down on illegal working. We have
discussed with them what they need to do in order to reduce the
pull factor. In relation to the external waters, again, that is
a devolved matter for them. Therefore if they feel that they need
more help on that, they would need to consider what they want
to do. We could certainly assist with advice and technical assistance.
In relation to the detention facilities, we have had some general
concerns about the prisoners there. I think that the adviser for
the area is visiting.
Leigh Turner: We have a regionally
based prisons adviser who regularly visits the prisons in the
region. He has recently been to TCI.
Meg Munn: So that is the additional
assistance we are giving.
Q290 Sir Menzies Campbell: Would
you have expected the Governor of the TCI to report back on issues
such as the Attorney-General's request for greater security and
the fact that it was not possible to replace the auditor?
Leigh Turner: I do not know how
much to make of the question about the Attorney-General's security,
because I do not know why the Governor did not bring it to my
attention or to—
Q291 Sir Menzies Campbell: That is
why I am asking you the question. Would you have expected him
to do so?
Leigh Turner: It would have depended
what happened in the discussions. I do not know whether, in this
case, for example, he discussed it with the police and they said,
"Okay, we'll provide additional protection", but the
Attorney-General was not happy with that. I just do not know the
background on that. But we would expect the Governor to bring
to our attention anything that we considered to be of major importance.
If the Attorney-General was not happy with his security, that
would be quite an important thing.
Q292 Sir Menzies Campbell: Is reporting
back done on a regular or ad hoc basis? For example, do you expect
a report every month or every three months? What are the time
scales? What are the criteria for the contents of these reports?
Leigh Turner: It depends on the
territory, but as a rough rule of thumb we would expect to have
some kind of round-up of what is going on about every week from
a major territory. We are in touch with Governors or Governor's
offices nearly every day in many of our territories, including,
for example, the Turks and Caicos Islands. We are in ceaseless
contact with the Governor's office there on a range of issues.
We do not talk so often to some of our territories that—shall
I say?—do not cause us so much policy interest, such as
Bermuda, for example.
Q293 Sir Menzies Campbell: Were you
aware that the Attorney-General's office had been fired?
Leigh Turner: Yes, we knew all
about that.
Q294 Sir Menzies Campbell: You knew
that? Did anyone from the Foreign Office make inquiries about
how that came about and whether any consequences flowed from the
fact that it happened?
Leigh Turner: We discussed it
with the Governor. The Governor informed us of it and informed
us that they were looking into what they could do about it.
Q295 Sir Menzies Campbell: That would
have been a natural context in which to consider the question
of additional security for the Attorney-General.
Leigh Turner: As I say, I was
not aware that he had problems with the level of security that
he was being provided with.
Q296 Sir Menzies Campbell: So far
as Her Majesty's Government's powers are concerned, as I understand
the legislation, which you helpfully read out, the co-operation
of the Governor is required before there can be an inquiry under
the legislation. Do Her Majesty's Government have the power to—forgive
the colloquialism—send the heavies in themselves if they
are not satisfied with the conduct of any part of the Government?
Meg Munn: Yes, ultimately. In
relation to a wide range of concerns, the Government could do
that. Obviously, as we set out our relationship, we need to be
aware of what the implications are for it. But if you look at
the issues in relation to Pitcairn a few years ago, where there
were allegations of child abuse and subsequent prosecutions for
that, clearly, the Government got very involved and the whole
process went through to prosecutions and imprisonment.
Q297 Sir Menzies Campbell: Has any
consideration been given to mounting an investigation into the
conduct of government in the Turks and Caicos?
Meg Munn: In relation to the range
of allegations that have been made, I discussed the matter myself
with the Governor and, as Leigh Turner has said, there is regular
contact. Sufficient evidence has not been provided even for the
Governor to feel that it has reached the level where a commission
of inquiry could be started. If further evidence in relation to
that—
Q298 Sir Menzies Campbell: That is
the Governor's view, but I am asking about our Government's view.
Meg Munn: We have not been provided
with sufficient evidence even to go beyond that. There is, if
you like, a hierarchy, and we would get involved if things went
significantly beyond what the Governor could deal with independently,
but it has not reached that level.
Q299 Sir Menzies Campbell: Is it
entirely a matter of coincidence that the post has been upgraded?
Meg Munn: No. I think Leigh Turner
explained earlier that there is a range of problems and difficulties
there and that the situation is demanding, so he felt that it
was appropriate that there be a Governor of a higher grade.
5 Ev 357 Back
| 
