Examination of Witnesses (Question Numbers
36-39)
MS NORMA
KANG MUICO
2 APRIL 2008
Q36 Chairman: Good afternoon. Before
we begin, members of the public please switch off your mobile
phones so that we avoid interruptions. Thank you for being with
us today, Ms Muico. I apologise for the slightly late start. We
had some business to resolve, principally about our travel arrangements
for when we go to the region. As you know, we have just begun
an inquiry relating to global security, Japan and Korea. We are
pleased that you are able to be with us. Could you first say a
few words about yourself and what you do? We will then begin the
questions.
Ms Muico: Sure.
I worked on North Korea at a previous NGO for about three and
a half years and produced two reports, one on trafficking of North
Korean women into China and one on forced labour in North Korean
prison camps. I am currently the researcher for Amnesty International.
My remit includes Japan, South Korea, North Korea and Mongolia,
and last week I returned from a four-week mission, visiting Japan,
South Korea and Mongolia—obviously we have no access to
North Korea. I have spoken to various people there regarding the
human rights issues and concerns that we have in Amnesty. It is
exciting, because we are looking at new projects on economic,
social and cultural rights.
Q37 Chairman: Thank you very much.
Can I ask you about the human rights situation in North Korea?
How much information do we have and how reliable is it? You are
from Amnesty—how do you get real information about the situation
in North Korea?
Ms Muico: There are various ways.
Of course you always have to vet them, to make sure that they
are reliable, but there are certainly ways to do that. One way
to find out information is through interviews with North Korean
settlers, either in South Korea or in third countries such as
Thailand. Other NGOs have access to China so they can interview
North Korean settlers—undocumented North Koreans—there.
From my experience, having done both, the information in the border
areas is newer and therefore more reliable. The problem with North
Korean settlers in Seoul is that they have already been exposed
to life in China for several years, sometimes even six to 10 years.
They have been exposed to speaking to the media, know what questions
will be asked and what would make a more pleasant answer, so you
have to ask them different questions without an agenda and try
to re-ask the question and get confirmation elsewhere through
research-based non-governmental organisations, both in South Korea
and internationally. Other organisations and Government agencies
have vast amounts of information as well.
Chairman: Thank you. We will now ask
a number of specific questions about the situation in North Korea.
We will begin with Fabian.
Q38 Mr. Hamilton: We know that captured
North Korean emigrants and would-be emigrants, especially those
in China, face particularly harsh treatment when returned, sometimes
including torture and execution. According to Human Rights Watch,
in 2004 North Korea toughened its treatment of its citizens found
trying to leave for China or return from there to a prison sentence
of up to five years. What is your assessment of the situation
for North Korean emigrants and would-be emigrants, particularly
women, in China and in detention in North Korea?
Ms Muico: I think that the treatment
of border-crossers is getting harsher, because the numbers are
growing and it is a huge embarrassment for the North Korean Government.
Having said that, my research and interviews with border-crossers
in January 2000 suggest that a lot of those who were forcibly
repatriated and faced beatings, torture and other inhuman and
cruel treatment tended to receive sentences that were less than
what they would have been in previous years, and that could be
for various reasons. Also, there seems to be a better understanding
of why North Koreans emigrate or flee to China. An example would
be why women marry North Korean farmers mainly and how they see
it as a survival, and they are not persecuted as much as they
used to be. For example, I did not come across any cases of forced
abortion or infanticide, and most of my interviewees were with
women who had all been forcibly repatriated and detained in the
various prison camps.
Q39 Mr. Hamilton: Can I just move
on to the Kaesong industrial complex, which I believe was established
in 2004 under South Korea's policy of engagement with the North?
Given the way that workers are paid and how the companies involved
transfer the funds to the North Korean Government so that the
relevant share can then be paid to the workers, do you think that
the Kaesong project is actually of net benefit for North Korean
workers or are they are exploited as they might be elsewhere in
North Korea?
Ms Muico: In order to get a job
at the Kaesong industrial complex you have to be fairly lucky.
Many North Koreans would like to work at Kaesong, as the work
conditions in the complex are, relatively speaking, fairly good
and the amount of money that they get is quite favourable, even
after tax and despite the fact that the currency exchange is not
in their favour. Having said that, I think that we cannot be complacent
on this issue. There is a window of opportunity for South Korean
companies and the South Korean Government to do more in terms
of freedom of association, collective bargaining and best practices
using the labour standards of the International Labour Organisation,
of which South Korea is a member. Therefore, I think that we can
say at this point that the net gain may be in the favour of the
North Korean workers, but a lot more needs to be done in Kaesong
to make the labour situation better for them.
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