Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120
- 139)
TUESDAY 29 JANUARY 2008
MS SHAZIA
QAYUM, COMMANDER
STEVE ALLEN
AND MR
NAZIR AFZAL
Q120 Mr Winnick: As I understand
it, your husband, you told us, was given permission by the Home
Office to stay here as your husband, because, clearly, from what
one can gather, there was no proper investigation. If the answer
from the Home office had been no, is it likely that your parents,
either with you, against your wishes but nevertheless, or on their
own, would have gone and seen their Member of Parliament and urged
the Member of Parliament to take action to try and allow your
husband to stay?
Ms Qayum: Possibly. Possibly.
I am not sure. I did believe they would have tried to use every
opportunity they could for him to remain in the UK. Unfortunately,
I have not had any contact with my parents whatsoever.
Q121 Mr Winnick: So there does seem
a problem, does there not, with Members of Parliament (who, obviously,
are always concerned to try to please constituents, for the most
obvious of reasons) taking up cases which, in the end, in some
instances like your own, if it happened (and it did not happen
because the Home Office said yes), can cause great unhappiness.
Ms Qayum: Absolutely.
Mr Winnick: Perhaps that is a lesson,
Chairman, for Members of Parliament—
Chairman: I do not know why you are looking
at me!
Mr Winnick: I would have thought that
is a matter that should be of concern to us.
Q122 Chairman: It is a matter of
concern. Ms Qayum, have you written to the Home Secretary to ask
her how it was possible for indefinite leave to be granted to
someone in this country where the spouse was not supporting that
indefinite leave?
Ms Qayum: No.
Q123 Chairman: Would you like to
write to the Home Secretary and send us a copy of the letter?
Ms Qayum: Absolutely.
David Davies: We could, perhaps, Chairman,
on Ms Qayum's behalf.
Mrs Dean: The problem is I think Ms Qayum
will be told she is the third party, as we are when we write to
constituents.
Q124 Chairman: She might be. If you
write to us we will forward the letter on.
Ms Qayum: Thank you very much.
Q125 Chairman: It is not possible
to get indefinite leave by fraud if somebody has fraudulently
done it. I am not suggesting you did, but you simply need an answer.
The Committee will write on your behalf.
Ms Qayum: Thank you very much.
Chairman: Thank you very much for giving
evidence today. You are welcome to stay. We have some questions
of Mr Afzal and Commander Allen. As time is relatively short,
we have enough time to ask all our questions but what we are going
to do is direct questions to each of you in turn. If you want
to chip in, please do so. The Committee promises to put the questions
briefly but we would like brief and succinct answers, if that
is possible. I would like to start with David Winnick, who has
a question on the police.
Q126 Mr Winnick: Commander Allen,
we have heard a very impressive and very courageous experience
told to us today. There was, however, the very sad and tragic
case of the woman who was murdered, Banaz Mahmoud. How far would
you say that those seeking assistance from the police are in a
position where they will be helped and not, indeed, in the case
we have just heard, told they are virtually on their own?
Commander Allen: Chairman, good
morning. Unfortunately, many of these questions do not lend themselves
to short answers, but I will try, and trust you to take me to
other places if you want to. The answer to your question is that
I am more confident now than I have ever been. Ten years ago,
as the head of operations for the City of Bristol, I had never
heard of this issue, which, when I reflect on that, strikes me
now as being quite remarkable and astonishing, given the nature
of that community. The service has moved to a point where now,
quite evidently, we have an ACPO lead on the subject and a developing
strategy and much has been done. To summarise, in answer to your
question, I think at a strategic level and at a policy level,
in terms of the guidance that we have developed, the evidence
base that we have developed over ten years, and the resources
that are available to officers, it would be reasonable to say,
without wishing remotely to sound complacent, that in terms of
the investigation of honour related homicides the service is now
far in advance of where it previously has been, and most investigations
now receive credit for the quality, sensitivity and professionalism
of them. I think we have also witnessed some significant improvements
in the responses and the knowledge made by what I would call specialists
in, particularly, domestic violence functions—those who
receive additional training, those whose job it is to manage the
risk assessment process and then conduct investigations. The further
we get towards the front end the less confident one can be. The
key challenge that I have always seen and articulated with this
work is that we have in excess of 100,000 people around the country
who may be the first person to whom a victim reports, and the
ambition has to be to have the confidence that every one of those
100,000-plus people, every single time they come into contact
with a victim, gets it right. I cannot sit here and, in all honesty,
say to you that I believe that on every single occasion we do
get it right, because I know from contacts with those working
in the field that on far too frequent a basis we still do not
get that right. My assurance is that we are doing the work to
try and improve that situation. As I say, we have developed much
guidance and many tools for officers in developing training on
a national basis in order to try and make sure that we can give
that guarantee. We are much better than we were, but we still
have a way to go.
Q127 Mr Winnick: Where it went disastrously
wrong, in the case which I mentioned, Banaz Mahmoud, a 20-year-old
woman of Kurdish origin who her parents were trying to force into
a marriage, she approached the police four times—four times—in
fear of her life, including writing a letter to the police with
the names of three men, her uncle's henchmen, who she thought—with
every justification, sadly, as it turned out—would murder
her, and her body was found buried in a suitcase in a family garden
in Birmingham in 2006. It has, of course, been a case where the
IPCC are conducting an investigation into what was described as
an inadequate police response to her appeal for help. It is a
terribly tragic case; terrible that her life should be taken by
thugs simply because she was desperate not to marry a particular
person, and all her efforts to contact and be helped by the police
did not succeed in any way. Do you feel, Commander, that every
police station in the UK has been notified about this case—the
circumstances and the lessons to be learned? Are you satisfied
that wherever the police station may be (obviously, there are
many parts of the UK where the number of people of Asian origin
are few), by and large, the police sergeant, etc, and his superiors
would know and understand the situation—different from what
happened to this lady?
Commander Allen: Our response
in relation to that particular tragic case, sir, is that the IPCC
have still not published their investigation report, and we await
that, hopefully, in the next month or so. Of course, we will learn
lessons from that. I have delayed putting the draft ACPO strategy
into the ratification process precisely because I want to make
sure that that strategy encapsulates the learning that comes out
of that. As you will be aware, there were two different police
forces involved at various stages during the inquiry. In terms
of your question about the lessons coming directly out of that
case—have we circulated those to police forces—no,
because we have not seen the IPCC view of those lessons yet, but
what we did do in the immediate aftermath, or as soon as that
case came to light (originally produced by the Metropolitan Police
but now under an ACPO badge) is produce a two-page guidance document,
which I am very happy to circulate to the Committee.
Q128 Chairman: Please. That would
be very helpful.
Commander Allen: Which sets out
some background and some of the key dynamics, and it gives very,
very specific guidance to officers in terms of what they should
do and what they should not do. It also gives, reflecting on Shazia's
experience, a range of contact details for organisations and agencies
that can provide that support. We have re-circulated that; that
was the second time that had been circulated to every police force
in the country immediately that that case came to light. Certainly,
I can tell you that my own responsibility as the Commander of
Westminster resulted in that being brought to the attention of
every member of staff who works at a front counter.
Mr Winnick: Thank you.
Q129 Mrs Cryer: Nazir, what are the
specific barriers to pursuing cases of honour-based violence or
forced marriage? I recognise that forced marriage in itself is
not a criminal offence, and therefore I recognise that you cannot
pursue it, but in the course of someone being forced to marry
there must, of necessity, be various criminal acts carried out.
Mr Afzal: Absolutely.
Q130 Mrs Cryer: Yet to date I do
not know of anyone being prosecuted for committing these acts
of violence or criminal acts in order to force someone to marry.
Mr Afzal: Good morning, Chairman,
good morning, Mrs Cryer. You are absolutely right; forced marriage
is seen by us as a trigger for much of the violence that we end
up prosecuting. As you know, forced marriage itself is not a criminal
offence. However, false imprisonment, abduction (the kind of things
that happened to Shazia), violence, duress and psychological harm—all
of those things could potentially be criminal offences. You will
know there are examples up and down the country, many presently
ongoing, where we are prosecuting vigorously, robustly cases which
would perhaps surround a forced marriage, but enable us, using
the current legislation to prosecute, we hope, successfully. I
am not overly concerned about the legislation; I think we have
more than enough legislation available to be able to prosecute
these crimes as effectively as we are. I also concur totally with
Commander Allen about the level of knowledge of officers: 100,000
police officers, 8,000 prosecutors—you cannot expect everybody
to know everything about everything. However, we recognise there
are large numbers of people who are better informed now than they
ever were. The main obstacle, quite frankly, Mrs Cryer, is the
lack of awareness, the lack of education, I guess, around this
issue. As much as I have been talking about it—and Commander
Allen, Shazia and others, and yourself for many years—there
are still people who are surprised by it. There is a need to make
sure that everybody is familiar with the issues, everybody is
aware that this is an issue not of honour, it is an issue of power
and control—male power over female behaviour—ultimately,
as long as you put it in the context of human rights, and not
just women's rights, if people are prepared to listen. Until we
can get to a situation, as Shazia pointed out, where the educationalists,
people working in education, people working as health professionals
and others, spot and identify the triggers which potentially will
lead to a forced marriage or to honour-based violence, then we
are limited, because the evidence is not going to come to us.
Also, on the other aspect, awareness, of course, the victim or
witnesses themselves are reluctant to come forward. It may be
necessary for the others, who have a duty to care towards them,
i.e. the health professional, the teacher, the headmistress, or
headmaster, to actually bring it to the attention of the authorities
in a way that they, perhaps, would not. At the moment, I am not
convinced that is happening routinely up and down the country.
There are many examples; Shazia's may have happened ten years
ago but ten years later I can point to many examples right now
where the educationalist, a teacher, perhaps inadvertently, as
in the case of Heshu Yunes, informed the parents that there was
some reason why she was missing school, which ultimately led to
her death. So you have the inadvertent and you have the unconscious,
really, lack of awareness. That said, great news (I think Commander
Allen said it); whilst we have not shared all the good factors
that have come out of Banaz and Surjit Athwal (another major case
that we dealt with last year), other areas around the country
are picking it up very quickly of their own volition. I was in
Cleveland just before Christmas where they have launched their
own hotline. Cleveland you would not imagine to be a hotbed of
honour-based violence and forced marriage, but in the month since
that hotline became active 90 `phone calls and 22 active investigations.
These are places that are running with it themselves. They recognise
how important it is that they take the lead, and they are taking
the lead.
Q131 Mrs Cryer: You do not feel that
the CPS, or the police for that matter, have a problem in not
wishing to be too clear about certain prosecutions, because they
do not want to be accused of discriminating against certain ...
That is behind—
Mr Afzal: Many, many years ago,
thank God. I think it was a former Solicitor General who said
political sensitivity is no excuse for moral blindness. We are
not interested in the idea of sensitivities here because, ultimately,
we are talking about child protection, victim protection, and
homicide—serious offences taking place—hidden victims
and hidden perpetrators. You will know the figures: you will know
that three times as many Asian women commit suicide as opposed
to white women from this country; you will know that just in the
line between Slough and Southall 80 women killed themselves in
the last year, and you can work out for yourself the ethnicity,
perhaps, of those individuals. So suicide and self-harm; again,
these are hidden victims. We are not interested in hidden victims;
we are about bringing them out into the open, and I am not in
the slightest bit concerned about being criticised for being discriminatory
or racist, or whatever that might be.
Q132 Mrs Cryer: I understand there
are specialist training courses for CPS solicitors so far as domestic
violence is concerned. Do you have anything similar for honour-based
crimes and forced marriages?
Mr Afzal: Yes. We are now piloting
in four areas—West Yorkshire being one of them, West Midlands,
four boroughs in London and Lancashire—specialist prosecutors.
These are people we have identified who are in a position to use
their knowledge that we have given them and which they have picked
up from other sources, and we are also giving them special guidance,
and they are working in those areas to be able to deliver a better
service to their local police services. Once we have finished
the pilot, which we hope to finish in three months' time, we will
look then and share best practice, deliver guidance and see whether
or not we can identify further specialists up and down the country.
Q133 Chairman: Commander Allen has
a quick point.
Commander Allen: I just thought
it was important to reiterate the point about (let us call it)
political correctness or political sensitivity shaping operations.
We have come to learn that whatever we do we will attract criticism.
I led the raids into Slough on Thursday of last week and spent
all of yesterday being accused of stigmatising and targeting a
particular community. If we do not take action we get accused
of not taking action because we are frightened of taking on cultural
issues. Our view is that we target criminality. Our view is that
our responsibility is to identify and protect victims, and we
are very, very clear about that being the focus of all our interventions.
Q134 Mr Winnick: You should carry
out your duties and not worry about unnecessary and irrelevant
criticism. That is what we would like you to do, and I am sure
you do it day-in and day-out.
Commander Allen: Absolutely.
Q135 David Davies: Mr Afzal, yesterday
I spoke to somebody about the Forced Marriage Unit and I was told
that the CPS had figures showing that in Bedford alone 300 girls
aged between 13 and 16 have disappeared from school rolls. I do
not know why the CPS would have that—
Mr Afzal: Exactly. It is not the
CPS. We are aware of the figures.
Q136 David Davies: Can you tell me
what the figures are nationally, or what you are aware of?
Mr Afzal: I cannot give you those
figures.
Q137 David Davies: Can you write
to us about that. That would be very helpful.
Mr Afzal: On the main point that
Mr Davies makes, we are not just working with victims of crime,
we are looking at potential victims of crime. We have identified
thousands, probably, of young girls between those ages, 13 and
16, who are no longer in education. Very many of them are, allegedly,
being home-schooled and very many of them are not being home-schooled
at all because there is no means of being able to check what is
happening to them. Very many of them will end up being—well,
they are victims already, I would say—victims of forced
marriage or honour-based violence. I know that a number of institutions
are receiving freedom of information requests to get the full
information. At the moment I do not have that in the way that
you would like, but I am sure we can give you what we have.
Chairman: If you could do that, that
would be very helpful.
Q138 Mrs Dean: Commander Allen, do
you agree that honour-based violence and forced marriage still
remains very under-reported? Have you got any data on the extent
of violence and forced marriage? Could you say whether it includes
both male and female—I think 15% male has been mentioned
somewhere?
Commander Allen: We have a significant
amount of data in relation to forced marriage and honour-based
violence that is reported to us. It is very difficult, because
of the way that our data recording systems work or do not work
across the country and their consistency, to understand how much
is reported to us. We work on a figure which suggests it is around
500 cases shared between us and the Forced Marriage Unit per year.
Is it under-reported? Massively. What we will never know, or cannot
know at the moment, is the extent to which it is under-reported.
If you were to ask me to hazard a guess, if the generally accepted
statistic is that a victim will suffer 35 experiences of domestic
violence before they report, then I suspect if you multiplied
our reporting by 35 times you may be somewhere near where people's
experience is at, but we simply do not know. We recognise that
the issues are those in relation to the police about trust and
confidence; there are also issues about whether the criminal justice
system and process actually provides people with the kind of outcomes
that they believe that they want. Clearly, it is one of the key
strategic aims of ACPO's work to find ways of developing trust
and confidence. The key way that we do that goes back to my first
answer, which is that every single one of our people gets it absolutely
right every time they come into contact with a victim.
Q139 Mrs Dean: How are you working,
or how are the police, in general, working, with communities to
overcome the under-reporting?
Commander Allen: I think it is
fair to say that since about 2003, with some work that was led
by Commander Andy Baker and DAC Carol Howlett, for the first time,
I think, a range of agencies and community groups, voluntary sector
groups, were pulled together in order to start to understand the
issue and work together. It is a field populated by deeply passionate
and committed people with very strong views, so those relationships
are always dynamic and productive, but I think we are now in a
place where we have productive relationships with a range of community
organisations. I hope that they would say that we listen and respond
to the issues they raise with us. However, I do think, in terms
of the Committee's considerations, one of the things that is on
my shopping list around the role of government, is that I firmly
believe that the Government needs to develop a clear and comprehensive
cross-sector communications strategy, an engagement strategy.
To tie that in, in my work I have folders on my shelves, one of
which says: "Crime Reduction Strategy"; one says: "Community
Engagement Strategy"; one says "Community Cohesion Strategy";
one says: "Preventing Violent Extremism Strategy", and
one says: "Community Justice Strategy. All those things,
really, are facets of the same diamond. I believe there is a real
need now not to articulate those engagement strategies but to
bring them together in a really coherent way. When you begin to
look at all those different strands of engagement you begin to
understand that issues around honour-based violence and forced
marriage fit into each of those. There is a real crying need for
that bringing together of an engagement approach.
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