Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140-159)
MINISTRY OF
DEFENCE
18 FEBRUARY 2008
Q140 Mr Williams: Sorry?
Sir Bill Jeffrey: I cannot explain
why it has been left at the same level in the intervening—
Q141 Mr Williams: Oh, no, you cannot
get away with that. Are you telling me you have come here to talk
about this Report and you cannot explain why a grant that is crucial
to the adaptability of servicemen when they are leaving has not
been altered since 1993? Who can, if you cannot?
Sir Bill Jeffrey: All I am saying
is it is a fact.
Q142 Mr Williams: It is a fact. Why
is it a fact?
Sir Bill Jeffrey: What we are
trying to do now is to increase a very significant—
Q143 Mr Williams: Only because it
has been pointed out to you by the National Audit Office. Air
Commodore, can you tell us?
Air Commodore Miles: Yes, certainly,
Mr Williams. We did not need the NAO to point this out to us.
One of the things I recognised when I first took this appointment
up was the fact that the grant was actually very low. In fact,
my predecessor had already set in train a proposal to look to
uplift it and we are looking to uplift it to over £1,000.
The way that we can do that is only by saving money which we do
use at the moment in terms of travel and subsistence so that we
can offset it on a cost-neutral basis.
Q144 Mr Williams: You have not raised
it yet to £1,000, you are thinking of raising it to £1,000?
Air Commodore Miles: No, we are
doing more than thinking of it. We already have a project running
at the moment to roll out much more training to be delivered on
a local regional basis so that people do not have to spend that
money on travel and subsistence.
Q145 Mr Williams: How long ago was
it that your predecessor recognised the need?
Air Commodore Miles: The paper
that she submitted was just before I took over from her.
Q146 Mr Williams: Which was how long
ago?
Air Commodore Miles: I have been
in the job now for two and a half years.
Q147 Mr Williams: It is nearly three
years ago that the problem was identified and we still have not
got the £1,000 that was identified three years ago?
Air Commodore Miles: Because we
have to put in place the mechanisms to enable that cost-neutral
uplift and that is what we are doing.
Q148 Mr Williams: You have to put
in place what?
Air Commodore Miles: We have to
put in place the ability for people to train in a way they do
not have to use travel and subsistence so that we can use that
money.
Q149 Mr Williams: If you put the
money there, the courses will be adapted. Three years ago if you
had just said, "Okay, we are upping it to £1,000",
then the courses would by now be providing the extra facility,
would they not?
Air Commodore Miles: I can only
work within resettlement in the money that is actually provided
for me. I do not actually have the Individual Resettlement Training
Costs grant, this is money which is owned by each of the single
Services. What I can say is, of course, although that looks quite
a bleak picture, that it is only £534, that money will buy
you four weeks' worth of training at the resettlement training
centre because we have pegged the prices there for contract-funded
training. In addition to that, if I may, the other thing that
we are seeking to do is also to be able to use extended learning
credits for courses which meet the same eligibility criteria,
the same course as you would use for your IRTC grant, so potentially
by next October we will be able to offer people some £3,000
towards their resettlement training.
Q150 Mr Williams: The £1,000
you referred to earlier which was comparable with the £530,
the £530, if had been upgraded, would be £800 now anyhow,
so really all you are doing is adding an extra £200 on what
it had been in 1993.
Air Commodore Miles: One of the
things we wish to do, because it has not been done in the past
with the Individual Resettlement Training Costs grant, is not
only to give it an initial boost but thereafter to maintain its
value through inflation-proofing increases year after year.
Q151 Mr Williams: How much extra
is this going to cost you? What is the gross figure? What have
we been saving all these years? How much more is it going to be
for you to introduce £1,000, a global sum?
Air Commodore Miles: I am sorry,
I do not have that figure immediately with me. I could provide
a note.[12]
Q152 Mr Williams: I would like you to
do that if you would, please.
Air Commodore Miles: Yes, but
we are taking the money from money that we already spend. We spend
about £9 million a year on travel and subsistence.
Q153 Mr Williams: You see, this is
the other thing that is interesting. In the days of National Service
I fought the Russians as an education officer in the RAF. They
were so intimidated they soon gave up. Actually it was about 30
years later, but that is beside the point. There is a difference,
is there not, between the Services in the value added to the personnel
you take in? In the RAF, which I was in, a large part of tech
ed, for example, was taking youngsters with no skills and turning
them into kitters to keep the aircraft in the air, they taught
them a skill. The Navy to the same extent needed specific skills
which had training. The trouble is the Army skills so often are
not those that have—what can I say—a civilian life
marketability, inevitably taking into account what Mr Bacon has
just said. Thinking in terms of this grant, how many people retire
a year? How many leave a year and would therefore have qualified?
Sir Bill Jeffrey: Almost 25,000
Leavers each year.
Q154 Mr Williams: 25,000.
Air Commodore Miles: The numbers
that qualify for Career Transition Partnership are not small,
it is about 62.8% of the total.
Q155 Mr Williams: Excuse my ignorance
here, would a young man leaving the Services as an infantryman
for whom a major role of training was discipline—you have
got to get a lot of discipline to go over the top against a machine
gun—so much of the financial input to his training is something
that is going to do him no good in civilian life at all, have
the same £534 or £1,000 when he comes out as everyone
else?
Air Commodore Miles: Yes, he would.
I think it is important to recognise that what resettlement is
also seeking to do is to actually use people's in-service skills.
Even infantrymen are not just trained to fire rifles these days,
many of them are extremely highly trained, many of them have trained
as drivers, therefore, what we do is we seek to build on those
competencies which they have achieved throughout their Service
careers and to develop something which is truly marketable to
civilian employers. I think the statistics show that by and large
the Career Transition Partnership is quite successful in doing
that.
Q156 Mr Williams: Coming to the point
Mr Davidson made about these external training providers, what
guarantee is there in view of the points he raised, when you up
the sum to £1,000 they are not just going to virtually take
the same money and give very little extra quality of training?
How are you able to monitor that?
Air Commodore Miles: I think there
is always a risk there and clearly what we seek to do is to ensure
value for money. We do have a complaints procedure. Where Service
Leavers are unhappy with the value for money that they have received,
they can report it to us and we will rigorously investigate it
and we will take action against any companies which we find are—
Q157 Mr Williams: Looking in terms
of where we are sitting, you are now saying, "Well, great,
we are going to give up to £1,000 from £500-odd".
Are you going to the service providers and saying, "Now,
if you are going to have this extra money, what specifically are
you going to be providing that you weren't providing before?"
Air Commodore Miles: A lot of
courses provided by external providers are more than £530,
but not all of them by any means.
Q158 Mr Williams: No, that is because
they are taking their accommodation money as well.
Air Commodore Miles: This is something
that we suspect a number of companies are, it is extremely difficult
to prove. Now the way that we try and reduce—
Q159 Mr Williams: What is extremely
difficult to prove?
Air Commodore Miles: It is extremely
difficult to prove. Unless we get in to look at a company's specific
books, and I do not think we have authority to do that, it is
very difficult for us to determine whether the money that they
are actually charging a Service Leaver is truly value for money.
What we can do is where there are comparators with other companies
and bad practice is brought up to us to—
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