Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-129)
DEPARTMENT FOR
TRANSPORT
9 JUNE 2008
Q120 Mr Bacon: My second question
related to our conversation about inadequate testing. I was simply
trying to gain your assent to the proposition that one of the
fundamental problems here was that there was inadequate testing.
Mr Devereux: Correct.
Q121 Mr Bacon: Good.
Mr Devereux: I am sorry, you were
picking on the pre-production environment.
Q122 Mr Bacon: The pre-production
environment is where the testing goes on, is it not?
Mr Devereux: It is where the testing
goes on once you already have a live system and you want to test
the increases to it. The main problem in actually getting this
thing started was that it was not properly tested.
Q123 Mr Bacon: So any testing that
took place took place on the live system; any further testing
took place on the live system.
Mr Devereux: Yes. Prior to April
2007 there is no live system therefore the thing that you are
testing is not live. That is the thing which was being done in
such a rush and so late that the testing period was shrunk to
a very miniscule period.
Q124 Mr Bacon: I have lost count
of the number of times I have heard in this Committee for different
projects that there was not enough time to do the testing. Why
does somebody not hold up a big flag—a big red light, to
use a gateway phrase—to whomever it is who says to you that
you must go ahead by a certain timetable that you need enough
time for testing. This happens again and again.
Miss Moorhouse: If you are including
finance systems you almost certainly have to go live at the beginning
of the financial year; that is generally recommended practice
for finance systems and therefore often testing becomes very pressurised.
You run the risk of losing a whole year before you can actually
bring the system back in at the beginning of the next financial
year. That is one of the reasons why testing can become very pressurised
because of that slim opportunity.
Q125 Mr Bacon: It is not just financial
year, is it?
Miss Moorhouse: No.
Q126 Mr Bacon: There are all kinds
of things that have nothing to do with the financial calendar
and this is a regular problem. There was not enough time to do
the testing before the timetable got to a certain point. Surely
the answer is to make more time.
Mr Devereux: I agree with you.
There was a choice open to the chief executives of the DVLA and
the DSA not to switch this on on the second of April in the absence
of the testing. They reached sufficient confidence from the OGC
review that maybe it would be okay that they did. In retrospect
I am not sure that was a good choice.
Q127 Chairman: I think, Mr Devereux,
that concludes our hearing. We did see recently one project that
went well, JobCentre Plus which had been rolled out by three people
who had worked their way up from the bottom of the department
and had 112 years of experience. I understand that you only arrived
in the Department in 2003 and became permanent secretary in 2007
so between you you have five years in this Department. I think
there is an object lesson here. I was very struck by the answer
that you gave us where you refused to answer my questions about
how people were held responsible. I think at these hearings, Mr
Burr, it would work better in the future if we could get the project
manager here, the person who actually ran it and find out from
him or her what went wrong and we hold them to account. This is
not just a game where the permanent secretary mugs up for a few
days on what has been a major public sector failure. Sir John
Bourn, the previous Comptroller and Auditor General, said that
there are three things that can go wrong with projects: they can
cost more; they can take longer; or they can make matters worse.
Mr Devereux, your Department seems to have managed all three.
Mr Devereux: I have done the first
two but I am telling you I am going to make the third one go away.
Q128 Chairman: We would like to have
you back in two or three years' time.
Mr Devereux: I look forward to
it.
Q129 Chairman: If you are still there
in two years' time I would like to hold you to account on this.
Mr Devereux: Let us hope I am.
Chairman: Thank you very much.
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