Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100-119)
14 NOVEMBER 2007
DEPARTMENT FOR
CULTURE, MEDIA
AND SPORT
AND OLYMPIC
DELIVERY AUTHORITY
Q100 Mr Davidson: But the fact is
that they could have been unemployed in Latvia, so I think it
would be helpful if we had some sort of clarification about their
location prior to their engagement.
Mr Higgins: I do know, of that
group of previously unemployed, that around 60% have come from
BAME communities within the five boroughs, black and Asian minority
groups, so the people that were currently employed and have been
recruited is a direct result of the job brokerage programmes that
we have put in place in Stratford, and they are targeting local
people. I can send you those figures.[3]
Q101 Mr Davidson: I wonder if we could
have the figures because I particularly want to separate the number
who are, as it were, genuinely London inhabitants rather than
those who happen to be living here just now. Could I ask about
the training of apprentices. In the latest set of figures I have
for the training of construction industry apprentices, in the
last year for which we have figures, Scotland had 2,600 and London
had two. Now, I find that uninspiring, I must confess, and those
figures came from the CITB. If London is only producing two as
compared to Scotland's 2,600, that would not inspire me with hope
that you are going to have lots of fully qualified tradesmen in
the next period flooding on to this site.
Mr Higgins: Well, I know we have
20 apprentices on the site right now and we are targeting 1,000
apprentices on this site in the duration of the programme. We
take apprentice recruitment very, very seriously and we spend
a lot of time with the major contractor groups who have established
on the Olympic site a training programme for excavator drivers
and we are getting people to be certificated in—
Q102 Mr Davidson: Maybe you could
let us have a look at that.
Mr Higgins: Yes.[4]
Q103 Mr Davidson: I presume those 1,000
apprentices you have mentioned are young apprentices. Do you have
opportunities for mature returners, either returners or recruits
to the industry? Is that also an apprentice programme that you
have been pursuing?
Mr Higgins: There is certainly
no differentiation on age, but I do not have those statistics
of that division. We are now collecting a lot more data. It is
one of the first times that this level of data is being collected
and once we have got it we can then work out intervention we need
to do in terms of how effective are the skilling programmes to
get people back in work.
Q104 Mr Davidson: Particularly in
relation to those who were previously unemployed, have you got
data for their stickability, as it were? There is no point in
starting somebody who was previously unemployed and they only
last a week. Unless we are following them through and can identify
that they are still there after maybe 26 weeks and then 52 weeks,
it is going to be disguising the position.
Mr Higgins: I do know that of
those stats I quoted earlier on, over 30 of them started with
tunnelling projects. These were people who had never worked in
tunnelling before, were unemployed and came into the project run
by our contractor then, Murphy's, and I met a number of them.
I do not know whether they all stayed for the life of that project
but it was a complex project and it would give them a good record
of having served on a project like that.
Q105 Mr Davidson: I can see that,
but I want to check whether or not they remain in employment.
I have no objection to people who get a job in something like
that and then go on to something else in construction and stay
in work. What I am worried about is that quite often people produce
figures indicating there were so many starts but some of them
only last a week. I have had this in projects in my own area,
some only last a week, some only last a month, and so on, and
it gives a completely different position. The final point I want
to ask about, and this may be best for Mr Stephens, is in terms
of the amount of Lottery funds which would otherwise have been
spent in Scotland. Can you tell me what the latest running total
is?
Mr Stephens: I am sorry, I do
not have the breakdown by devolved countries but I am very happy
to write to you with them.
Q106 Mr Davidson: Maybe you can give
us them for Wales and Northern Ireland as well.
Mr Stephens: Yes.[5]
Q107 Mr Curry: Mr Higgins, in the Queen's
Speech the Government announced its intention to introduce a roof
tax, a tax which captured the gain in planning permission. It
had intended to introduce a planning gain supplement and this
has now become a sort of Milton Keynes job. Will that have an
impact upon your project? It will become law presumably by this
time next year.
Mr Higgins: The planning gain
supplement, as you say, is no longer around. I know the Milton
Keynes' roof tax, as it is termed, very well, I was Chief Executive
of English Partnerships that introduced that programme with my
executives. It was a comprehensive development programme with
a mechanism to capture the value uplift for the public sector.
The advantage of this site here is the land is owned by the public
sector anyway, so value uplift is captured by that, however the
Government does have the urban development corporation which covers
all of this valley here.
Q108 Mr Curry: The private sector
is going to build the Village, is it not?
Mr Higgins: Yes, it is.
Q109 Mr Curry: The Village is destined
ultimately to be affordable housing, is it not?
Mr Higgins: One-third, 30%.
Q110 Mr Curry: A significant element
is going to be affordable housing.
Mr Higgins: Yes. There is a profit
share arrangement on the Village and on the shopping centre, so
if there is windfall profit made then the public sector has the
benefit.
Q111 Mr Curry: So when the Government
introduces the tax that will have no impact on the ultimate costs
of building the Village or disposing of the Village, that is all
accounted for in the existing arrangement, is that correct?
Mr Higgins: The potential tax
comes through section 106 planning, so that which has planning
through section 106 is the method of capturing this planning gain.
Q112 Mr Curry: We do not know exactly
what the mechanisms of this tax are going to be, do we?
Mr Higgins: Unless there is retrospective
legislation it should not affect it because the Government benefits
anyway. There is a profit share on the Village and there will
be a profit share on the rest of the Stratford land that is subject
to development and benefits from the Olympics.
Q113 Mr Curry: If that were to change
you would obviously wish to let us know.
Mr Higgins: Of course.
Q114 Mr Curry: The second contemporaneous
event is the Prime Minister today announced a whole new set of
measures on improving security: areas where cars will not be able
to go, much more robust construction, a huge number of new checks
of one sort or another at stations. What impact do you think that
may have on the security arrangements envisaged for the Games?
Mr Higgins: Within the Olympic
site the ODA has accountability for security for delivering the
venues and infrastructure for the Games. We are not accountable
during the Games, that is the responsibility of LOCOG.
Q115 Mr Curry: I appreciate that.
Mr Higgins: We have had embedded
experts in our organisation, including people from various security
services and government bodies, to advise us on design and planning.
Q116 Mr Curry: So you are confident
nothing the Prime Minister said today will represent an additional
cost to what you are currently envisaging?
Mr Higgins: I have not seen what
the Prime Minister announced today but we have done everything
we can to plan for the infrastructure of the venues on the Park
to cater for the risk which is appropriate to the Games.
Mr Stephens: I can say that DCMS
was involved and consulted on Lord West's report, which is the
basis for some of the Prime Minister's announcements today and,
indeed, the model of planning and embedding security in the Olympics
is actually a model that people want to adopt more widely. I should
also just say that one of the risks that has been modelled against
which the contingency stands is the risk of wider regulatory change.
That is one of the risks that the £2 billion contingency
is there to cover.
Q117 Mr Curry: The word "change"
means "increase", I take it. "Wider regulatory
change", you mean more regulation, do you not?
Mr Stephens: Yes, that is the
upward pressure obviously but it could go the other way.
Q118 Mr Curry: Well, we all live
in hope, but not very much hope as far as I am concerned. Can
I pursue the line of questioning from Mr Davidson. The construction
industry is actually quite heavily dependent on migrant labour
and I think there is a figure of 40,000 to 50,000 Poles who work
in the construction industry and are a hugely important part of
it. Again, being very contemporaneous, we have had all the problems
about illegal immigrants working in security and other activities.
What sort of discussions have you had, or are you likely to have,
with the firms which are building your project to make sure the
people they employ are entirely legal?
Mr Higgins: We have certainly
had discussions with the firms that we are going to engage to
carry out the work but, in addition, we have had extensive discussions
with the Met Police that covers both our access to the Games site
and vetting of staff. We are working through a vetting process
that is practical but also allows us the right level of security.
Most importantly, we need a system that is scaleable because what
we do not need is the most secure site in the country but nothing
is built because it has scared away every single contractor, but
equally so we need a system that can be rapidly scaled up if the
risk level increases.
Q119 Mr Curry: Talking about scaring
off contractors, the article in the Times may have been
what Mr Davidson was referring to which points out that: "building
contractors are refusing to put in bids for venues at the Olympic
Park because the projects carry too much risk and too little profit".
The construction industry is relatively buoyant, although there
are one or two offers on residential housing now which show they
are concerned about what is happening, but the Government has
got a project to build three million houses by 2020. Are you concerned
that the attractions of bidding into your programme are going
to be significantly less for what I suspect will be significantly
easier projects in more familiar territory to fulfil what is already
looking to be a challenging target for housing?
Mr Higgins: If you look at our
major projects, the Village, the adjacent shopping centre, the
roads and bridges, we have £600 million of the work already
committed now on the enabling works and the utilities contracts
are close to completion on contracting. The power lines contract
is fully committed. We have good progress on committing work.
Yes, it is a very competitive market and it is unique really because
it is not only competitive here, it is competitive in the Middle
East and Asia and in other markets. It is not just the plumbers
who are in high demand, it is also the engineers, the planners
and the programmers. We have to make sure that we are attractive
and efficient as a client to attract the industry.
3 Note by witness: At the end of October 2007,
918 (54%) of the ODA's total workforce of 1,715 people, lived
in London. The ODA does not collect information on the location
of employees before their engagement with the ODA. Back
4
Ev 20 Back
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Ev 20 Back
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