Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80
- 99)
TUESDAY 12 DECEMBER 2006
MS CARRON
MCDIARMID,
MS CAROL
GREER AND
MS PHILOMENA
DE LIMA
Q80 Mr Davidson:
That is three points, all of which I think are very helpful. I
do not think it was ever designed to deal with temporary or part-time
work, I do not think we can deal with that. On the question of
the national minimum wage not being paid, clearly, Chairman, we
would be very interested to hear about employers in the Highlands,
or a substantial number of employers in the Highlands, who are
refusing to pay the national minimum wage because that is clearly
an issue of law. That is a breaking of the law and I think we
would very vigorously want to pursue that. Certainly if CAB has
any information on that I think we would want to hear that right
away and we would be passing that on to the enforcement authorities
as quickly as we possibly could.
Ms Greer: It is not so much the
issue about the paying of the minimum wage, it is issues to do
with tips, the provision of accommodation to people, and the degree
to which people understand what their rights and responsibilities
are if the employer is saying, "We are deducting x and y
from your wages for those kinds of issues". It is not necessarily
a clear-cut, "We are not paying you the bottom line amount
of money you should be getting paid".
Q81 Mr Davidson:
If there is any suggestion of improper or illegal deductions then
I think we would want to know about it and I am sure either the
local Member or ourselves would want to pursue that most vigorously.
Certainly your third point was the question of the level. I would
certainly agree, and I think the group we saw earlier would agree,
that it is not at an adequate level. Do the CAB have a view as
to what the appropriate level would be?
Ms Greer: I do not think so, I
can check for you. I am not sure because it is not the social
policy side I work on, but I can check for you and give you any
information I can on that.
Q82 Mr Davidson:
In terms of the council, I just want to check about the question
of the minimum wage.
Ms McDiarmid: I think it is better
than not having a minimum wage, that would be the council's view,
but we do not have any evidence on the impact of it yet.
Q83 Mr Davidson:
The council is in favour of the national minimum wage, is that
what you are saying? There is some doubt in my mind about that.
Ms McDiarmid: It is viewed as
a positive development.
Q84 Mr Davidson:
And the council was in favour of increasing the national minimum
wage, was it?
Ms McDiarmid: I am not sure about
that, I do not think it has been debated in the council.
Q85 Mr Davidson:
I think there is an issue for us about the attitude of Highland
Council towards the minimum wage because before we came here we
were led to believe that the council was dominated by basically
those who were running tourism businesses and farmers and so on.
We see from the corporate planning priorities that included in
there is a call for more subsidies for farming and to reduce the
taxation burden on tourism businesses, but there is no mention
at all about the national minimum wage or the need for an increase.
In the statement that you gave us as a council it mentions fuel
poverty, which I understand, and issues of rurality, which
I understand, but nowhere does it mention any support for an increase
in the national minimum wage or, indeed, endorses the introduction
of the national minimum wage which makes us think that perhaps
the council has been captured by those who do not particularly
like the national minimum wage.
Ms McDiarmid: The council has
not debated the national minimum wage as far as I am aware.
Q86 Mr Davidson:
And they have no view on it as far as you are aware?
Ms McDiarmid: There has not been
a debate on it is what I am saying.
Ms de Lima: Can I make a point
about the national minimum wage. I have been involved in two major
studies around the issue of migrant workers in the Grampian region
and in the Highlands. I think there is an issue around the lack
of transparency in what migrant workers are being paid with regard
to the minimum wage, and this especially applies to the tourism
sector and the fish processing industries to some extent because
there are some employers who may provide accommodation amongst
other services and within this context there is a lack of clarity
about whether people are being paid the right amount or not. Certainly
the employees themselves are not able to work out whether they
are getting paid the right amount or not. I have to say, this
is consistently the case in terms of the evidence I have found
through our research, both in the Highlands last year and in Grampian
which is ongoing at the moment; there is an issue around all of
that. There is also an issue around the employment of migrant
workers, and if you look at the evidence they are affecting rural
areas disproportionately. There are large numbers of East Europeans
who specifically come to rural areas because of the nature of
the economy and labour market opportunities. I think there is
a really interesting issue which at the moment we do not understand,
which is the impact of migrant workers on the workless households,
how that is impacting on the ability of people who might have
been working in fish processing factories or the tourism industry,
how is that going to affect those communities in terms of accessing
work? There is an issue around that sort of aspect of the labour
market as well.
Q87 Mr Davidson:
My impression from my own area is because of the influx there
would be displacement, that those who we are trying to move from
welfare into work would be displaced by migrant labour and the
effect of migrant labour would be to hold down wages so that the
minimum wage becomes the maximum wage.
Ms de Lima: I think it is an interesting
issue as well because it is not in the interest of some of the
public sector bodies to find out too much about this. I am not
going to be more explicit than that. There is an issue around
not probing this whole issue enough. I also think there is a role
for some public sector organisations possibly, such as Highlands
and Islands Enterprise, in their procurement and in their dealings
with the private sector to start establishing a good framework,
a good code of practice in relation to employment issues. I have
to say, I have not seen a lot of evidence of that as yet.
Q88 Mr Walker:
I have still got concerns about statistics here, and I am sorry
to keep coming back to it but I think statistics are very important
for understanding the scale of the problem one is facing. What
percentage of households in the Highlands are in fuel poverty?
Ms McDiarmid: As at 2003, 21%.
Q89 Mr Walker:
Can I ask you a question, and I am sorry if I sound like I am
trying to catch you out. How on earth do you know it is 21% if
you do not know what household incomes are because fuel poverty
is based on the percentage of household income spent on heating
a home? About 20 minutes ago you said there were no numbers for
what household incomes were, so somewhere along the line there
is a problem here.
Ms McDiarmid: Philomena explained
that what we have to do in the Highlands is conduct surveys to
find that because normal statistics do not always reflect the
position in the Highlands. That is based on the Scottish House
Conditions Survey and that is based on surveyors going into homes
and looking at the condition of the house and speaking to the
householders. When they were asked, "How much are your fuel
bills and what proportion of that is your income?" that is
how they calculate whether or not people are in fuel poverty.
If it is greater than 10% of their income spent on household energy
then that is fuel poor.
Q90 Mr Walker:
I think these are pretty dodgy statistics here.
Ms McDiarmid: That is a nationally
applied standard and it is the same approach used throughout the
country.
Mr Walker: It could be dodgy nationally.
I do not understand how, if you do not know what average household
incomes are, you can have any real view that has some basis of
fact of what household fuel poverty is. It could well be that
this is being underestimated as a result. It would strike me that
knowing what household incomes are across this region is an essential
challenge before you can start addressing the issue of poverty.
Q91 Mr McGovern:
A point of information for Carol. Quite a lot of MPs are actively
involved in campaigns which could have a positive impact for those
on the lowest incomes. For example, a number of MPs are involved
in a campaign to outlaw the practice of including tips in the
calculation of the national minimum wage. Recently a number of
MPs have also been involved in campaigns to ensure that free ATMs
are installed in the lowest income areas and that has been successful,
HBOS and the Royal Bank of Scotland have agreed to install hundreds
of them. Also, three of the six power companies have recently
agreed that clients who are using prepaid tokens for their energy,
when the tariff goes up and the metre has not been recalibrated
they are not going to be seeking back payments. These are the
results of parliamentary campaigns, I would say. There are a lot
of positive things happening and MPs are working to help people
on the lowest incomes.
Ms Greer: Yes, we work very closely
more in Scotland because our colleagues in England and Wales tend
to work more out of Westminster, but absolutely, yes. Obviously
if we can give you social policy information which is useful we
absolutely will.
Q92 Danny Alexander:
Another point related to the one which Jim has quite rightly made,
and this is a question for Carol but I would be interested in
other views as well. In terms of service delivery at a local level,
one of the things mentioned earlier was the role post offices
can play in having a very locally community-based, particularly
for financial services, financial inclusion of debt. As Jim would
know, if all the major banks allowed post offices to access their
cash cards at post offices then more or less every village would
have a free to use ATM. I wonder what your perspective is on the
role that post offices can play in the Highland context and what
impact taking the services away, which will be announced this
week, is likely to have?
Ms Greer: I think it is safe to
say that Citizens Advice Scotland has been doing quite a lot of
lobbying and campaigning to keep local post office services for
precisely the reasons you are mentioning, particularly access
to financial services. One of the big issues for people in poverty
is access to affordable credit and the prevention of people getting
into debt because the guy from the Pru comes and knocks on the
door. If you provide local financial services, post offices are
crucial for that, they are absolutely vital. We would very strongly
support local post offices remaining in place. I have got some
evidence about paying ATMs. I have extracted a social policy report
about a client from this area who uses ATMs to manage her money,
so she only takes out a little bit at a time so she cannot spend
too much basically. The only way she can do it free is by using
public transport to get to her nearest small town. When she cannot
afford to go to the small town she has to pay for the ATM in her
local shop. In one month that couple incurred £13.50 worth
of ATM charges which, of course, they could not afford on a very
low income. I know ATMs are a slightly separate issue from post
offices but it goes along with it. If you take the village I stay
in, the post office runs a free ATM and next door the shop runs
one which people have to pay for. If that post office goes then
it is going to be a paying ATM and I am sure that will apply across
the whole area. We would be very strongly supportive of keeping
the post office service and also expanding the free ATMs, as Mr
McGovern was saying how important that is and in rural areas even
more so because to access a free one you are going to have to
spend money on public transport to find one, so absolutely, yes.
Q93 Mr Davidson:
Can I come back to something else we have done like the national
minimum wage and that is Pension Credit, and I would like to hear
your views on that. It has been clearly designed to target those
pensioners who are in the greatest need. My impression is it has
been universally successful where it has been taken up but there
is an issue of take-up. I get the impression that the council
here again are not as vigorous with others in promoting take-up
here as they are in other areas. I think I am aware of people's
anxiety of it not being seen to be in the parish and we have that
in my constituency and elsewhere. Can you illuminate us as to
whether or not (a) where it has been applied it has been successful
and (b) whether or not there are any particular take-up issues
here that we ought to be aware of which could not be overcome
by more vigorous campaigning?
Ms Greer: I do think there is
an issue about take-up and you see that issue you are raising
applies to benefits and tax credits also probably equally. We
do encourage people and we do take-up campaigns, but part of the
difficulty from our perspective is resourcing if we get a high
demand for that. We do take-up campaigns on these issues but they
tend not to be particularly high profile if we are under-resourced
to deal with a large volume of enquiries generated from that.
I have statistics for last year and for the bit of this year up-to-date.
For Pension Credits in Highland 2006-07, that is for the current
year, we have had 248 enquiries in the year to date. Pension Credits
for the year before that was 586, so we are getting people coming
to us asking about Pension Credits, but what we do not know is
the unmet need for that which will probably be high.
Q94 Mr Davidson:
Certainly my own council, as well as myself and councillors doing
stuff, were informing home helps, for example, and getting them
to be active in terms of approaching people about claiming Pension
Credit. Is Highland Council equally active?
Ms McDiarmid: I would say there
is a general effort made for people who work front-line with people
in need to know that they can apply for benefits, but to have
the detailed knowledge of who will qualify and who will not qualify
would not be for home helps, it would be to signpost those people
to get help from the benefits promotion team or from an advice
bureau.
Q95 Mr Davidson:
The benefits promotion team are a small group of people covering
an area the size of Belgium, as I think we heard already.
Ms McDiarmid: Most of our resource
for advice provision is directed to the advice network almost
one million pounds every year paid to the network to provide advice
to the Highlands. To a large extent that service is outsourced
and we do it with the voluntary sector because they can bring
in volunteers so it is more economical and it can be a useful
route for those volunteers to get into paid employment.
Q96 Mr Davidson:
When we were speaking to people in the groups we met I certainly
got the impression that the council is not as vigorous here in
promoting the take-up of Pension Credit as it is in other areas.
You are suggesting to us that is unfair, are you?
Ms McDiarmid: I would have to
look at that more carefully to give you an answer rather than
giving you one just now. I can supply that as written evidence
if you would like.[40]
Ms Greer: Can I add that the Citizens
Advice Bureaux do have a good relationship with the Department
for Work and Pensions and we do exchange information. If we know
of somebody who is aged 60 or over who would benefit from a home
visit to discuss Pension Credits, amongst other things, then with
the client's permission we would pass that information to the
local pension service who would go out and do that visit and vice
versa; they will swap client contact details with us. We have
a project funded by Macmillan Cancer Relief in Grampian where
we have set up a formal arrangement for patients with cancer because
it is Macmillan who is funding the project. We have got a formal
referral system set up there so we can refer people backwards
and forwards. The pension service people would go out and do those
home visits. If they cannot answer all of those enquiries they
will pass the person back to us. If the person needs a review
or an appeal then, again, they will let us know the outcome of
the case and refer them in to us so we can take that up and immediately
do the reviews and the appeals. That is a model we are very keen
to pursue in Highland now, and at the moment we are discussing
with Macmillan Cancer Relief about setting something similar up
in Highland so it is very much closer and there are benefits us
and them and saves everybody money, hopefully.
Q97 Mr McGovern:
A fairly simple question but there is probably not a simple answer
to it. What do you consider to be the most important steps the
Government could take to alleviate poverty in the Highlands and
Islands region?
Ms McDiarmid: I think there are
a number of fairly straightforward things which could be done.
Looking at the level of the winter fuel payment would be a good
thing to do given the fuel price increases and the extent of fuel
poverty in rural areas. It would be useful to not just attach
the warm deal of energy efficiency improvements to those in receipt
of benefit but also to look at how they could be used for families
on low incomes. There is more work that can be done to encourage
energy providers to make sure that pre-payment meter charges are
brought in-line with those paying quarterly by direct debit, for
example. Fundamentally, I think the Government needs to be much
more sensitive to the geography of poverty in rural areas and
not look through an urban lens at the issues.
Ms Greer: I would agree very much
with that, and I would add for the Government to look at issues
to do with debt, the extent to which creditors lend and the terms
under which creditors lend. I would like to see some more concerted
action to prevent creditors lending money to people who cannot
afford to repay it. There are schemes—I cannot remember,
I think it might be in Australia or New Zealand—whereby
if creditors lend inappropriately then they are asked or—presumably
it is legal—have to give money to the advice services who
then support the people. I think there are issues around looking
at credit and preventing people getting into the kind of debt
they are getting into by being encouraged to borrow when really
they should not be. They should also look at issues to do with
the amount of interest that is charged. I also think when the
Government is considering things like closures of Jobcentre Plus
they rural proof those and look at the disproportionate effect
that can have on people in rural areas in terms of them then having
to travel to the nearest job centre for what are mandatory interviews.
These people do not have a choice about whether they go for these
interviews, they must do it. They incur the travel costs and the
inconvenience with that. If you take, for example, the closure
of the Thurso Jobcentre Plus, people are then having to travel
to Wick and that costs them around £3.90-£4.00 to get
there on an unreliable, infrequent bus service where they are
probably then going to have to wait for a long time when they
get there, depending on when their appointment is, so they are
going to have to shelter and have a cup of tea or whatever.
Q98 Mr Davidson:
What is the answer to that then, outreach, because obviously we
cannot keep offices open everywhere? Is it sending people out
on outreach to do that?
Ms Greer: In my view, yes. I think
the pension services has proved that could work very well.
Ms McDiarmid: Carol has just inspired
me; another opportunity there is to look at how different types
of Government services can be co-located in areas. The council
invests in a network of 37 service points to make sure that no-one
in the Highlands is more than 30 minutes away from a council service
point. There is no reason why these service points cannot be developed
to host, either on a permanent or temporary basis, Jobcentre Plus
staff as well as other advice providers. We do that with the tourism
sector in some of our areas but we would be very keen to co-locate
services to keep them local.
Q99 Mr Davidson:
Have you asked the DWP about that?
Ms McDiarmid: We have asked that
question of passport offices. I am not sure if our staff working
in the service point network have done that for DWP but we can.
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