Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100
- 119)
TUESDAY 12 DECEMBER 2006
MS CARRON
MCDIARMID,
MS CAROL
GREER AND
MS PHILOMENA
DE LIMA
Q100 Mr Davidson:
We do not want to go away and give them a row for not doing it
if you have not asked them to do it.
Ms McDiarmid: No, but it would
help for you to encourage them to consider that as a request and
also to emphasise what Carol was saying about the importance of
keeping services local, for the council to do that, that needs
to be reflected in its grant allocation and for the super sparsity
information to be taken into account better.
Q101 Mr McGovern:
You will need to excuse my ignorance on the point, but if these
interviews are mandatory are the transport costs not paid for
them?
Ms Greer: No.
Danny Alexander: They are if you are
travelling to a job interview but not if you are going to a mandatory—
Mr McGovern: Jobcentre interview?
Danny Alexander: A job seeking interview.
Q102 Mr McGovern:
Has the Highland region benefited from the relocation of the headquarters
of the Scottish National Heritage from Edinburgh to Inverness
and if so, how has it benefited?
Ms McDiarmid: I would say absolutely,
yes. There are more better paid jobs in the area and the building
which has been designed is a flagship of sustainable development
for the Highlands and one which other developers should take into
account.
Q103 Danny Alexander:
This is to the Highland Council specifically. In paragraph 3.11
of your written submission you mention that the ageing population
in the Highlands is growing at a faster rate than the rest of
Scotland and you made that point in your opening statement as
well. Could you tell the Committee what are the main problems
faced by the elderly in remote and rural areas, for example heating
homes, poor access to banks and post offices, feelings of isolation
and so on? As that share of the elderly population grows what
additional stress does that place on the service provisions to
tackle those issues?
Ms McDiarmid: Because we tend
to have a low wage rural economy your income in old age is often
related to your income when you were younger and when you were
working, so your pension is going to be lower. It is a real time
bomb for the Highlands. As we have more people on low wages they
will also be poorer in their older age. Just because of our demographic
profile our ageing population is growing at a faster rate in Highland.
You can already see some of the difficulties attached to that
around fuel poverty where one in three pensioner households were
assessed as being in fuel poverty from the Scottish House Conditions
Survey compared with one in five of households generally in Highland.
That is far higher than it is for Scotland as a whole. The research
which was done by Aberdeen University was very clear that older
people in remote rural areas rather than just rural areas are
particularly disadvantaged and that is not helped by having poorer
access to services. There are some real issues for the council
around the provision of care for older people, for them to remain
in their own homes, and that we have to pay for home carers to
travel to provide that support at home. That costs a lot more
than if you have got a carer who is dealing with two or three
people in the same street; it is not that straightforward. There
are extra costs around service delivery. We would not want to
disadvantage older people by them having to leave their community
and their home to move somewhere else to have residential care;
that is the worst case scenario for us. In terms of providing
care, in terms of keeping services local and looking at our ageing
population, there are some significant issues for the council.
Q104 Mr Davidson:
Following on from that point about the question of people retiring
on low wages and therefore low pensions, I think you would accept
that both by reducing the national minimum wage, which the council
has not got a policy on, and also Pension Credits we are trying
to address both of those issues. What I want to clarify is the
question of to what extent is the increase in the ageing population
a result of people moving in here as distinct from locals growing
older? Are there particular issues which are caused as a result
of an influx of elderly retirees?
Ms McDiarmid: There is a geographical
pattern to answer that question. Some of the West Coast communities
have had a higher proportion of people moving into the area who
are older, but generally our inward migrants to Highland are of
working age. In parts of Wester Ross and Skye a higher proportion
of inward migrants are older.
Q105 Mr Davidson:
These are the so-called "white settlers". Are there
any particular issues which arise from that other than you having
an increase in the number of elderly? Do they bring any particular
problems with them that we ought to be aware of?
Ms McDiarmid: Where we have more
people living in remote areas who are older and they then develop
care needs, it is more expensive and more difficult for the council
to provide that.
Q106 Mr Davidson:
They pay their council tax all their life down South and then
they come up here and the burden falls on you?
Ms McDiarmid: We welcome all incomers.
Mr Davidson: You are very diplomatic.
Q107 Danny Alexander:
In your submission, again this is specifically about the council,
you are criticising the Scottish Executive for its limited funding
of the rural service priority areas and also suggest that Scotland
would benefit from the equivalent of England's Commission for
Rural Communities, of course quite rightly pointing out that there
is a larger proportion of rural communities living in Scotland.
Is that something you have discussed with the Executive? Do you
have any views as to why such a commission has not so far been
established in Scotland?
Ms McDiarmid: I have been very
impressed by the work of the Rural Commission in England. The
key role they have in a rural proofing policy appears to be very
useful, and Carol has also raised how useful that would be in
terms of understanding the impacts of Scottish Executive policy
so that rural needs are taken into account. We have asked for
the same type of work to be done in Scotland and initially SERAD
expressed an interest in looking at how to understand rural disadvantage
better, but that offer seems to have been withdrawn fairly recently.
I am not very sure why there is a feeling that we do not need
a rural watchdog or a rural commission for Scotland when we have
more extremes of rurality than exist in England.
Ms de Lima: Over the last 18 months
or so the UHI Policy Web has been in some discussion with universities
as well as some public policy agencies to set up what is called
a "Scottish Academy for Rural Policy". The idea of the
Scottish Academy for Rural Policy is that it would bring all the
disparate interests across universities as well as public agencies
together to start looking at the issues affecting rural communities
in a coherent and co-ordinated way. It would also set up a mechanism
for rural proofing policies and to evaluate what is happening
in terms of policies impacting on rural communities. These discussions
are still ongoing, although there seems to be some reluctance
to engage. I think the concept is seen as a good idea, however
there is a lack of clarity about what the right mechanism should
be. I know there are also rural observatories, for example I think
there is one in England and one in Wales, which provide a similar
sort of function where they make observations on what is happening
in rural areas and perhaps produce an annual report and so on.
Discussions are ongoing and it is a bit unclear about where it
is all going to end up. I know that the Commission for Rural Communities
in England has been looking at rural proofing but I understand
that the practice of rural proofing is far from wide spread and
consistent in England as yet. Carol has already raised the issue
about the way in which maybe a closure of the Jobcentre Plus might
mean nothing in another area but could have a significant impact
on rural communities. That is just one example of other issues
where we need to rural proof policies. We need a mechanism for
it and we are not quite clear why agencies such as the Scottish
Executive appear not terribly keen on having something independent.
Q108 Mr Davidson:
Can I ask about the University of Highlands and Islands and also
the colleges and so on that there are here. To what extent are
they providing a full range of services to people who need either
higher or further education for the job market?
Ms de Lima: The different colleges
with the UHI are independent; although they are part of the University
of the Highlands and Islands they also operate as independent
entities. I am aware that through the Scottish Funding Council
colleges have to produce business plans that look at their local
communities and address the issue around the labour market needs.
Mr Davidson: I was wondering whether
or not there are any major identified gaps?
Danny Alexander: Construction is a huge
one.
Q109 Mr Davidson:
Why is that a gap and why is that gap being allowed to remain?
Ms de Lima: I think there is an
issue around how much public funding is available for apprenticeships,
as I understand it. I have had some interesting conversations
with the construction companies as well as the Construction Industrial
Training Board over the last two years or so that I have been
doing the work on migrant workers. My understanding of it from
the sector is that the sector to fund more apprenticeship places
than are currently being made available through the public funding
mechanisms which exist.
Q110 Mr Davidson:
You are saying that they are not doing that?
Ms de Lima: They would claim that
there is not enough funding for the number of people who would
want to take up an apprenticeship.
Ms McDiarmid: Mr Davidson, there
was a study done two years ago looking at construction sector
skills and it was jointly done with HIE, Communities Scotland
and the council. That showed that there was a current gap and
the gap would continue to grow unless there was some kind of intervention.
I am aware that one of the things which has happened since that
study was done is that with all housing association developments—and
they build all the new affordable housing in the area of around
500 units per annum—there is now a requirement for contractors
to employ apprentices and that is monitored through the CITB.
The first monitoring report has been produced and the results
of that have not been as good as they might have been, so there
is now work underway to make sure that part of the contract is
complied with better. I am also aware that I think Inverness College
is specifically looking at training for those in the construction
sector around renewable technologies which is very important for
this area because of the growth of renewable energy sources and
projects.
Q111 Mr Davidson:
Does the council make a similar stipulation in its contracts that
there has got to be numbers of apprenticeships and does the health
board do the same?
Ms McDiarmid: The council also
has its own apprenticeship scheme within its own workforce. I
am not sure about the health sector. I can send you the summary
of the research if you would be interested.[41]
Q112 Mr Davidson:
That is helpful in identifying the question, but are there other
areas in which the local colleges and UHI are not meeting identified
demand?
Ms McDiarmid: I am aware that
in the council we have skills gaps in a number of professions:
engineering, social work, social care and also for a while in
teaching, but the council has developed particular approaches
to each of those so that now, for example, you can train as a
teacher and stay in the Highlands without having to go to Aberdeen,
Glasgow or Edinburgh. That work is being done jointly with Aberdeen
University.
Q113 Mr Davidson:
One of the issues we were discussing earlier was the whole question
of progression into employment and so on and, apart from the one
you identified with construction, there should be no other gaps
in terms of the job market identifying vacancies and people being
able to train for those.
Ms McDiarmid: I think the health
service struggles to have consultants in some of the more remote
parts of the Highlands.
Q114 Mr Davidson:
Yes, but, to be fair, you would not expect them to be trained
locally. In terms of things that you would not normally expect
local people to train for and then work locally there are no major
deficiencies?
Ms McDiarmid: I think there are
difficulties but there are different routes being developed for
each of those, so the school example is one, also for bringing
more Gaelic teachers into the Highlands there are different arrangements
for that. If you want I can provide some written evidence on what
the council is doing in those areas.[42]
Q115 Mr Davidson:
It would be helpful to know that.
Ms de Lima: I think different
colleges will have different strategies. I am not aware of there
being a co-ordinated approach or mechanism for that. For example,
the North Highland College will have—I do not have the information
here—a lot of links with Dounreay. I think different colleges
will have different links to their local employers. There is not
an overview, as far as I am aware, of mechanisms for addressing
labour market shortages and needs, it is very much dependent on
each college and each department sometimes even within a college.
Q116 Mr McGovern:
Does the college provide courses that are specific to the construction
industry?
Ms de Lima: They do.
Q117 Mr McGovern:
I know that many years ago when I served my own apprenticeship
I was allowed day-release to go to college in Edinburgh. The contracts
that you mentioned earlier were the various housing associations,
the health board and the council's own departments, is there a
stipulation in these contracts that the apprentices must be allowed
release to go and attend these courses?
Ms de Lima: For the construction
industry certainly Inverness College is one of the very successful
departments where that is happening, but I could not speak on
behalf of the other colleges and what is happening elsewhere.
It is certainly better. The construction industry is by far one
of the most successful and very buoyant aspects of the college.
There are also initiatives with the NHS around access courses
for nurse training as well which I am aware of. There are those
sorts of initiatives taking place. It would be very difficult
to say who would have an overview of it in the context of the
Highlands and Islands.
Q118 Mr McGovern:
That covers the courses which are available and I am delighted
to hear that, but are apprentices guaranteed to be allowed to
attend them?
Ms McDiarmid: I would be surprised
if they were not. They should be.
Ms de Lima: They do have block
releases and things.
Q119 Mr McGovern:
Yes, but 30-odd years ago when I served my apprenticeship, for
example—at that time it was a City and Guilds, London Institute
certificate you were trying to get, I think the equivalent now
is the SCO FEC or something else—some firms allowed the
apprentices to go and others said, "No, it is a waste of
time, you are not going to the college". Where contractors
are dependent upon council or housing association contracts, does
it stipulate that they must allow the apprentices to attend these
courses?
Ms McDiarmid: I will check that
and put it in writing to you.[43]
41 See Ev 38 Back
42
See Ev 38 Back
43
See Ev 38 Back
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