Examination of Witnesses (Questions 259
- 279)
TUESDAY 20 FEBRUARY 2007
MR BRIAN
GORDON, MS
MYRA MACKENZIE,
MR JIM
MILNE AND
REV ERIK
CRAMB
Q259 Chairman:
Welcome and good morning. We are delighted to be here in Dundee
for today's meeting of the Scottish Affairs Committee in connection
with our inquiry into Poverty in Scotland. You will know
that we are conducting an inquiry into poverty in rural and urban
areas in Scotland. First of all, can I thank the staff of the
Council for helping to organise this meeting. I would like to
welcome our first set of witnesses who are from the Dundee Anti
Poverty Forum. Perhaps you could introduce yourselves.
Mr Gordon: Yes, thank you, Chairman.
My name is Brian Gordon. I would like to introduce, on my right,
Jim Milne, who is the Project Leader for the Dundee Anti Poverty
Forum. I have on my left here Myra Mackenzie, who is the Secretary
of the Dundee Anti Poverty Forum. On the left of Myra is the Rev
Erik Cramb, who is a former industrial chaplain in Dundee and
now heads the taskforce in Dundee on the savage unemployment that
has taken place lately. Before we go further into questions, could
I take this opportunity to ask you, maybe unusually, because of
the time constraints, to allow the four of us to speak and put
forward our submissions and then with questions hopefully we can
bring everything forward.
Q260 Chairman:
That is what I want to do. Before we ask detailed questions, if
you would like to make opening remarks, please do.
Mr Gordon: As I said, my name
is Brian Gordon and I am the Chairman of the Dundee Anti Poverty
Forum. Dundee Anti Poverty Forum would like to thank you, Chairman,
and the Scottish Affairs Committee, for giving us an opportunity
to put forward our views on poverty. We would like to give you
an insight into the what and why we think poverty has an impact
in Dundee. We hope to impress on the Committee how a manufacturing
wipe-out has caused, up until now, untold suffering on the people
of Dundee. Job losses, which include 650 direct jobs going in
the NCR, to which the Rev Erik Cramb will allude later, but also
how over the years we have lost, and we are losing, jobs from
Timex, Valentines, Levis, Michelin, Wood Group, Tesco, TDI and
many more. We have even had the unbelievable scenario of our Chamber
of Commerce going into liquidation just a short time after their
Chief Executive boldly stated: "Job losses are always a blow,
but the future is bright in Dundee". That was before it went
into liquidation. We also hope to show today through our Secretary,
Myra Mackenzie, the social deprivation to hit Dundee. That social
deprivation was highlighted in the Joseph Rowntree report of 2005
which produced a local authority league table of poverty that
showed Dundee was bottom, or second bottom, of five of the 15
main indicators and in the bottom half of the other ten. It showed
that Dundee was worse or second worse in regard to low income,
drugs misuse, overcrowding, poor mental health and underage pregnancies.
Also, in a report only last week from the Medical Research Council
it showed how our mortality rates among men in Dundee under 65
have risen from 10% below the national average in 1981 to 19%
above the national average at this present time, and Dundee being
the only area in this category outside of the West Coast. We will
also hear from Jim Milne, our Project Leader of the Dundee Anti
Poverty Forum, how we need changes to welfare reform and also
to tackle inequalities. What we would like to state at this time
is the good work of the government agencies, both Scottish and
national, who have injected millions of taxpayers' money into
schemes to try and alleviate the problems that have arisen in
our city over the years. But, sadly, Dundee can be likened to
a bucket with a built-in sieve. How do we, as a society, replace
that sieve with a solid bottom and go from here together as Dundee,
the city of recovery?
Q261 Chairman:
Thank you.
Mr Gordon: I now ask Erik to come
in with his submission.
Rev Cramb: Chairman, Members—
Q262 Chairman:
There is no need to stand up.
Mr Gordon: He is used to standing.
Rev Cramb: It is my training to
stand and speak. Normally I get to speak ten feet above contradiction,
which gives me a sense of power!
Q263 Chairman:
We have only one hour for questions and answers, if you can be
brief, please.
Rev Cramb: Sure. Can I say that
my presence here is supporting the presentation made by the Anti
Poverty Forum. NCR, for the best part of 60 years, has been the
jewel in Dundee's economic crown and now with the closure of the
plant, the loss of 650 well-paid jobs, in addition to all the
others that have been mentioned, this exacerbates the whole feeling
of powerlessness in the city. What I would hope to do is to say
to you that we have had expressions from the Prime Minister, through
Mr McGovern, that anything that can be done from Westminster to
help will be done. To be brief, I simply want to remind you that
Civil Service jobs are within the grasp of the Prime Minister
and Westminster to direct to Dundee. We have here the capacity
to have those Civil Service jobs, and whatever influence you can
use when you go back to Westminster to see—They are not
a long-term fix for 650 workers but they would be an important
gesture of support to a city that is struggling under this blow
of the loss of the jewel in its economic crown.
Q264 Chairman:
Thank you. Myra or Jim, do you want to say anything very briefly?
Ms Mackenzie: Thank you. Those
who experience poverty over a period of time become more susceptible
to the impact of a range of issues which adversely affect their
lives: unemployment, disability, poor education, accidents, low
income, illness, poor health and family breakdown. They are a
few of the situations that can catapult any individual into a
web of deprivation where without assistance their lives become
a negative experience and their situations become more acutely
entrenched within the web with more intense problems. They are
then categorised by disadvantage and are caught disastrously in
the poverty trap, their lives are generalised and they begin to
believe their futures are defined by their disadvantage. Disadvantage
in Dundee may start at birth. In the more deprived areas, Dundee
has a higher incidence of low-weight babies and the ongoing effects
of a poorer start in life. Cancers and heart disease, again the
highest incidences are concentrated in the worse Scottish Index
Multiple Deprivation data zones. If you are male in Dundee your
chance of a premature death under 65 has moved in the last 20
years, as Brian mentioned, from being 10% lower than the Scottish
average to 19% higher. Dundee has the highest mortality rate for
men under 65 in the north-east of Scotland. We lag behind both
European countries and the rest of the UK in regard to these issues
mentioned and these inequalities are concentrated in the most
disadvantaged communities in Scotland underlining the recently
published UNICEF report on Children,[1]
a study across Europe which placed the UK last over a range of
indicators, including those associated with poverty. Although
Dundee is home to two excellent universities and a city packed
with students from the rest of the UK and abroad, which plays
an important part in the local economy, school exclusions are
highest in Scotland, coupled with poor educational attainment
in some parts of Dundee lagging 50% below the Scottish average.
There is a major concern that we are letting young people down
with those excluded becoming the NEETs of tomorrow. In the more
deprived areas of Dundee you are twice as likely to be prescribed
drugs for depression with higher records of suicide and self-harming
in young people. If you live on one of the more peripheral housing
estates to the north of the city you are more likely to be a victim
of crime, there is more opportunity for crime and the perpetrators
are less likely to be apprehended. Victims of crime feel threatened,
withdrawn and become more isolated and less likely to engage in
community activity and a downward spiral begins. People feel they
lack choice in moving away, they suffer stress, dismay and vulnerability.
Housebreaking is rife in certain areas of the city with higher
incidents of antisocial behaviour, vandalism and car crime, with
the Dundee Co-ordinated Anti-Crime Network spokesman stating that
80% of retail crime and retail ASBOs arise from drug addiction.
A third of the 746 people referred to the Tayside Council on Alcohol
last year were men between the ages of 16 and 25. The introduction
and visibility of community safety wardens and community policemen
has gone some way to abate the fear of crime, not so much crime
itself. Although an issue across the social spectrum, domestic
abuse is more prevalent in deprived communities. With 75% of women
interviewed claiming some forms of domestic abuse, the official
figures are the tip of the iceberg. Along with the Women's Aid
Centre claiming more than 80 women and children were turned away
from shelters last year because there were no spaces, there is
an urgent need for more provision. Debt is a big problem for many,
on benefits and working, and with low wages or income debt that
can cause many homeowners to lose their homes for a minimal and
disproportionate amount of debt. Society is letting people down.
Are we just educating people to be poor? Are we encouraging people
to manage their situations of poverty rather than supporting them
to break free from it? Are we encouraging people to rob Peter
to pay Paul and play the welfare system? These are critical questions
which need to be asked and answered.
Q265 Chairman:
Thank you, Myra. Jim, if there is a brief statement you want to
make, please do. If it is a prepared statement you can hand it
over to us and that would be very useful.
Mr Milne: I can appreciate that
time is of the essence. We did bring along our report this morning
called Lives on Hold, which is a study of deprivation and
related factors in Dundee. I have already spoken to Diane and
we will send that down to the Committee Members in due course.
We are launching it in a couple of weeks' time. What I intended
to do today was to speak about a number of policy matters but
I think we touched on a few of them yesterday so I do not want
to bore you going over the same information in regard to things
like policy-proofing and welfare reform. I do want to say as regards
the National Action Plan on Poverty, which is very employment
focused, and we can understand the Government's drive to ensure
that getting back into work is one of the main areas of getting
people out of poverty, if we only have that focus and that focus
alone we are missing an opportunity to do more for the people
who cannot get into work because it is not an option for them
for a whole host of different reasons. I think we need to look
at the whole question of income adequacy, which was something
we discussed yesterday, and more support for groups like carers
and others who are critical to the wellbeing of so many people
in society who get scant regard and very little reward for the
work that they do. If we look at Dundee very briefly, Dundee is
very much the centre for employment in the region. It is a cultural
centre but it is very much a centre of learning as well. In North
Fife and the hinterland of Dundee, Angus and Perth, many people
rely on Dundee not only for employment but for essential services
that Dundee provides as well. It is a real crying shame that the
city is straitjacketed with the problem of council tax income
because of the high levels of council tax bands A and B households
that exist in the city. I am sure it is not beyond the realms
of possibility for some type of fiscal instrument to be introduced
that will recompense Dundee for providing that whole range of
services to the many thousands of people who rely on it but do
not actually live within the city boundaries. We would ask you
to look at that matter because it is something that needs to be
taken into consideration. We know that Dundee is not unique in
that regard, it is the same for other cities in similar circumstances,
but because of the high level of council tax bands A and B housing
it is a major, major problem. Dundee Partnership wants to do more,
they want to provide better services to tackle poverty and deprivation
in the city but they are very much straitjacketed by the lack
of resources that they have. All we can say is would you please
look at that. We have a lot of intelligent people down in Westminster
and in the Scottish Executive who can look at the problems that
a city like Dundee faces and we are sure that some type of fiscal
instrument could be introduced to recompense Dundee in a way that
allows them to take account of that problem and provide more for
the people of Dundee who experience poverty and deprivation.
Q266 Chairman:
We do understand and appreciate that loss of jobs always has a
detrimental effect on communities and cities. You will be aware
that Jim has raised this issue during Prime Minister's Question
Time and he will be lobbying strongly to Government and the Scottish
Executive to make sure that more jobs or better or maximum support
can be given to Dundee. There are media reports today that there
is the possibility of 20,000 white collar jobs moving to Scotland
and I am sure that Jim will be campaigning vigorously and we will
give him support to bring some jobs to Dundee as well. Can you
explain what support the Forum can provide to the people who are
experiencing difficulties because of poverty?
Mr Milne: Our main focus is to
keep poverty at the top of the political agenda locally and to
ensure that we continue to hold a dialogue with the Scottish Executive
on a number of matters and also the Government at national level.
Just as an example of that, at the present time we have a public
petition sitting at the Scottish Parliament on the question of
the school clothing grant where we are asking for a review of
the school clothing grant system in Scotland because there is
no logic at all to the criteria that are established and no logic
to the level of grant that is set by each local authority, it
is different right across the country. If you need a school clothing
grant, whether you be in the Borders or Inverness, Dundee or Glasgow,
why should it be that you can qualify in one local authority but
not in another and why should you get £35 in one local authority
and £65 in another, it is an absolute nonsense. That is the
type of initiative that we will take forward. Although we do not
provide direct services locally we manage other projects that
do. That is understandable in the sense that not everyone is going
to give money to Dundee Anti Poverty Forum, it is more of a tactical
thing than anything else because we have satellite organisations
that provide direct services in their own right and can attract
funding as a voluntary sector charity for the purpose that has
been established. We manage that type of service being provided
locally. Very much at the top of our agenda is to speak to people
because we have got faith in people who have experienced poverty.
If you have never experienced poverty you do not know what it
is like. You might think you do and you will perhaps have a certain
level of understanding, but you do not really know if you have
not got to the end of the week with no money in your purse, two
kids to feed, the meter is running out and you do not have money
for electricity or power, you just do not know. What we try and
do regularly is to go back to the citizens of Dundee and ask them
about the things that are affecting them, not only speaking about
the issues but how do they see things improving, what would they
like to be done. We like to think that we are the conduit to allowing
the public to have their voice heard across a range of issues
and indicators of poverty because we see people as being part
of the solution and not only part of the problem.
Q267 Chairman:
When people come to you, do you just give them advice, emotional
support, or are you in a position to offer them some financial
help, for example free-interest loans?
Mr Milne: We do not have budgets
for that type of service, unfortunately. If we were able to hand
out money to people in Dundee we would be very keen to do so,
but we do not do that, I am afraid. What we do manage is the Dundee
Money Advice Support Project that provides people who have got
debt and money problems with proper advice, support and advocacy,
so it is not only a service to fill out the very difficult forms
that they have to fill in to get the benefits that they are entitled
to, it is about negotiating with the creditors to ensure that
the debt they have taken on for whatever reason can be negotiated
by way of repayment schedules or interest being disregarded in
the future, that type of thing. That is a very critical service
when people have got situations where they have got multiple mounting
debts that they cannot repay themselves.
Q268 Mr Walker:
A very quick question. Do you get any financial support from major
banks and building societies to particularly the debt advice arm
of your organisation?
Mr Milne: None whatsoever.
Q269 Mr MacNeil:
The Forum's stated aim is to tackle poverty in Dundee through
raising public awareness of the issue. How does the Forum go about
that task, especially given what you said yesterday about the
Scottish situation? Over and above your raising awareness, what
do you think can be done at a Scottish level to be tackling poverty
in this country?
Mr Milne: We are very much involved
with the Poverty Alliance, which is based in Glasgow. They are
the umbrella organisation for all the anti-poverty organisations
in Scotland. We come together with the Low Pay Unit, the Child
Poverty Action Group, Moray Against Poverty, which is a rural
poverty organisation in the north-east, Oxfam and a whole host
of others, so we attempt to co-ordinate the activities we are
involved in and give a stronger voice to the Executive and Parliament
in Westminster. That allows us to network as well within the UK
Anti Poverty Forum and also the European Anti Poverty Network
where we are able to come together with our colleagues in Europe
and Ireland and that exchange of information is very helpful.
When I spoke about policy-proofing yesterday I did make a reference
to Ireland, for example, where they policy-proof all their strategies,
policies and actions to make sure they can make a positive impact
in tackling poverty in Ireland. That is something we have learned
from their particular experience and we are promoting locally
in Dundee with the council but also across the board. Having that
type of network is very helpful to us and to other organisations
that participate in that.
Q270 Mr McGovern:
Charles touched upon the question of funding, could you tell us
where your funding mainly comes from, is it from the City Council,
the Scottish Executive or a UK Government Department, such as
Work and Pensions, for example?
Mr Milne: Our core funding comes
from the Scottish Executive's community regeneration funding.
You were at Brooksbank yesterday and the building itself is a
project in its own right and the services that are provided there.
We might manage it but it is a project in its own right and that
gets core funding from the same source, along with the Money Advice
Support Team and the Kiddie Kare Project that we told you about
yesterday as well. We are very reliant on the one source of funding.
Obviously we tap into other opportunities when they crop up, such
as Big Lottery funding. I did want to say something about that
today. The voluntary sector is very reliant on Big Lottery funding
and it is a real crying shame that that is going to be robbed
for the London Olympics. That is going to have a major impact
on the voluntary sector across the country and for the life of
me I cannot see the trickle-down benefits that are going to be
felt by people in Whitfield, Charleston, Menzieshill, and Kirkton
when the Olympics are on in London and the Big Lottery is funding
it to the detriment of voluntary sector projects in the City of
Dundee. We do go to Lloyds TSB, for example, which is another
big funder. As long as you are a charity you can access funds
from Lloyds TSB. We use all these different funds for different
bits of work at different times and I think we have been very
successful in attracting project based money that is very much
time-limited but we rely heavily on core funding from the Community
Regeneration Fund from the Scottish Executive and we do not know
what is going to happen to that after 2008 at the present time.
Q271 Mr McGovern:
Thanks, Jim. I am sure you would say you could do with more funding,
so if there was more funding could you give us an example of how
it might be used?
Mr Milne: We lost an employee
at the end of last year who was employed by us to do particular
research funding. For example, in the report that we are going
to be sending to you the back of that report looks at some of
the smaller areas within the regeneration areas themselves, and
we mentioned that yesterday as well, the data zones that are particularly
badly affected by a whole host of indicators of poverty, including
health inequalities, poor educational attainment, reliance on
benefits, low income and all that type of stuff. That person was
employed to pull out all that information that has never been
published anywhere before that is very stark and hard hitting.
We have lost that person because the funding for that post ran
out. Part of our job is not to provide services, although we are
always trying to look for other options to exploit for the organisations
that provide the services and we have still got to raise the money
for these projects. We need to do more ourselves in getting people
to understand not only the nature of poverty but the extent of
it as well. If we had more funding we would be doing more in that
area of work.
Q272 Chairman:
Charles has mentioned banks, building societies and financial
institutions. Do you think that these financial institutions should
be doing more to take responsibility to tackle poverty when they
are making huge profits? For example, Barclays announced profits
of £7.1 billion and out of that £1.2 billion came from
high street branches. Do you think they should have more social
responsibility?
Mr Milne: I think they pay scant
regard to the social responsibility they have got, although they
talk about it from time to time. At least within the regulation
of the utility companies, for example, there is an obligation
to put more back into the community. I do not think that exists
for the private banks. When you think that the banks not only
are in an area where they provide financial services but provide
financial services that get people into poverty, I think there
needs to be a lot more regulation on what banks offer to people.
An example was given yesterday where a man was due to pay the
bank £50 because he had a £50 overdraft but when he
walked into the manager's office he got offered an additional
overdraft of £2,000. That type of nonsense should not exist.
There are stories that if you walk down the High Street in Dundee
if you are unemployed you can rack up £15,000 worth of credit.
How silly is that? It is irresponsible lending at times. I think
people have got the right to access financial services whether
they are poor or rich but not when it is irresponsible lending
that is pushing people into major debt problems they can lose
their home, lose their car, put pressure on the family and lead
to family break-up and all that type of stuff. They have got a
social responsibility and they are not exercising it.
Q273 Chairman:
Are you talking about responsible lending and at the same time
interest rates, for example, and service charges they charge the
people who need help?
Mr Milne: I do not want to slap
Gordon Brown on the back for keeping interest rates low because
if you have got a mortgage that has been very helpful over the
past few years and the control of the economy has been something
that has led to a certain level of stability that the banks like,
that business likes, that other employers, particularly engineering
firms who export, like as well, but the reality is in the near
future we have got the possibility of interest rates going up
and the impact on jobs in the manufacturing sector could be quite
significant.
Q274 Mr Walker:
Banks strike me as not providing the type of service that many
of your users need: advice on financial management, they are not
interested in providing bank accounts, so really it is a one-way
bet. They are very happy to offer large loans at fairly high rates
of interest but they are not willing to invest some of their time
and actually some of their money in helping some of the most deprived
members of society access sensible financial services and sensible
financial planning.
Mr Milne: I can only agree with
you.
Q275 Mr MacNeil:
Last month it was announced that there were 650 jobs going from
NCR. I have heard quite a lot this morning about poverty, of course.
These were the loss of government jobs and I think Erik Cramb
mentioned this block of Civil Service dispersal in the UK. I would
like to ask about the confidence you might have in the economic
climate in Scotland ever creating a situation where you have those
kinds of jobs replaced or are we constantly going to be looking
within the public sector, within welfare? Are we going to see
a climate in Scotland that is going to allow that? You mentioned
Michelin as well and one of the defining political moments in
my view was when Continental Tyres, which was in Newbridge, closed
the factory in Newbridge and moved elsewhere. I thought that was
destructive, particularly from the Scottish Nationalists' point
of view. I wonder what you think about Scotland's economic climate
because that ultimately has to affect the work that you do.
Rev Cramb: One of the things that
I have not said so far is in response to the job losses at NCR
the economy of the city, the people with their hands on the levers
of the economy of the city, have all responded to see what they
can do and what opportunities there are to re-employ the workers.
You are talking about banks being irresponsible in lending but
NCR was not a company not making profits here, it is to do with
making enough profits. There is a real moral question about what
is commerce about. That is a huge question that is not contained
to Scotland or even to Britain but the whole global economy. These
jobs are being shifted not because they are not making money but
because they are not making enough money. In terms of the Scottish
economy or in terms of the Dundee economy we have had major responses
from the universities, which are not just teaching institutions
in this city but are economic institutions, they are at the cutting
edge of many of the new technologies on which Scotland's economy
depends, the Chamber of Commerce, the voluntary sector, the public
sector, individual businesses, they have all been in immediate
and continuing contact about how we can regenerate the Dundee
economy. Part of the plan that you have before you talks about
building on the city's strengths and the same applies to the whole
of Scotland, building on the strength and resilience that we have
shown. The short answer to your question is yes, I have a confidence
in Scotland.
Q276 Mr McGovern:
Erik, yesterday we had an informal chat but that was not a matter
of record whereas today's meeting will be recorded. I have quite
a number of emails and letters from employees of Tesco where 430
jobs have been moved to Livingstone and they feel because of the
NCR situation they are now being forgotten about and ignored.
Can you just confirm that as a result of the meeting with the
Government Minister, Jim Murphy, for the people in other employment,
Tesco for example, although the taskforce was set up as a result
of the NCR announcement it is there to help other people employed
by Tesco, Michelin, Wood Group and the supply chain to NCR itself?
Rev Cramb: You referred to the
meeting with Jim Murphy and if this is a matter of record let
me say right away that there was an immediate response from the
Scottish Executive to the NCR issue and that should be said. There
was an immediate response. Because that was a good thing we should
not be saying that other companies were treated badly, they were
not. There was an immediate and splendid response to the NCR issue.
In the meeting with Jim Murphy it was confirmed that the whole
of the current redundancy situation in Dundee should be our concern
and should be a focus of our attention.
Q277 Mr Davidson:
Can I just ask about the extent to which the work of the Forum
as a whole has got heavier since the announcements at NCR and
Tesco?
Mr Milne: It is honestly difficult
to say. Obviously when they are job losses announced in the city
it is something we are concerned about and we regularly make our
viewpoint known about these concerns. The impact of the job losses
will filter through as time goes on when people need to seek further
support and advice and that will happen as people lose their jobs
and go through that process. What we are very heavily involved
in at the present time is assisting the support and we have organised
financial advisers from the Money Advice Support Team to assist
with the group and provide services to the workers in NCR who
are going to be losing their jobs and will be seeking financial
advice around the issues of the debts that they have, their mortgages,
and making sure that they immediately get the full extent of the
benefits that they will be entitled to. Within the Dundee Advice
Workers' Forum, which we act as a secretariat for, they are very
keen to ensure that type of advice is available to the workers
who are losing their jobs as well as anyone else who suffers from
poverty and low income and debt problems.
Rev Cramb: Could I just say to
you, Mr Davidson, there is not a single worker yet who has been
made redundant at NCR so it has not had a chance to filter through,
which in one sense might be a good thing but in another sense
there is this hiatus and frustration about getting to work.
Q278 David Mundell:
Myra, in your opening remarks and, indeed, in the submission there
was discussion about wider issues that arise from a backdrop of
poverty and one of the issues which was raised was domestic abuse.
I know there has been quite a focus on that by the Scottish Executive.
In the submission there were a number of questions raised but
you did not go on to suggest the answers to those questions. I
wonder if you have any further views on that, particularly how
domestic abuse should be tackled in addition to what the Scottish
Executive is currently doing?
Ms Mackenzie: I think domestic
violence is a complicated issue and, therefore, the solutions
are complex. Women's Aid and the Rape and Abuse Centre here have
done lots of work alongside but when people need somewhere to
go to be safe and there are not enough places then that must be
the highest priority where action needs to be taken in providing
the shelters in the first place. Domestic abuse does not accompany
poverty but it exacerbates the situation. Victim support, more
counselling and ultimately more provision are some of the answers.
I do not know if the real causes are as varied as the reasons
that people fall into poverty and experience domestic abuse.
Q279 David Mundell:
I think it is an interesting point because on the wider point
around social issues, teenage pregnancy, drug abuse, for example,
I notice of late there has been a tendency to suggest that these
problems could affect everyone to try and get a more inclusive
approach to deal with it, but the reality remains, does it not,
that the focus of these problems are more linked to poverty than
to other circumstances? Do you agree with that?
Ms Mackenzie: Yes.
Mr Milne: I think when you look
at the report we are going to provide, we try and link up the
various issues that are more prevalent within the deprived communities
and households that experience poverty because it is not just
that you are poor because you do not have any money, although
that is the main thing, it is other things that come in on the
back of that and are interconnected that make your life a total
misery. Domestic abuse is just one element that may or may not
be there with a whole host of other things. As regards domestic
abuse, particularly women have to have more faith in the criminal
justice system. We have got a situation at the present time where
that does not exist. Myra was indicating earlier that in a consultation
exercise 75% of women who were interviewed said they had been
the victims of domestic abuse at some time but only a small percentage
of them actually went and reported the incident to the police.
Our findings tend to show that where Procurator Fiscal's officers
are quite keen to ensure that charges are taken against the perpetrators
those are areas where there is more faith. Where you have instances
where Procurator Fiscal's officers are not taking cases forward
because they have been "cleared up", which is the police
terminology for it, by maybe a warning or the person not being
too keen to take the case themselves or not being encouraged to
take the case, that is an issue that needs a lot more attention
than it has had in the past.
1 Report Card 7: Child Poverty in Perspective:
An overview of Child Well-Being in Rich Countries.Published
14 February 2007 Back
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