Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280
- 299)
TUESDAY 20 FEBRUARY 2007
MR BRIAN
GORDON, MS
MYRA MACKENZIE,
MR JIM
MILNE AND
REV ERIK
CRAMB
Q280 David Mundell:
Is the implicit suggestion in that, Jim, that they would be less
likely to pursue that if the person was from a poorer area or
is that a more general issue?
Mr Milne: It is not the poorer
areas, it is faith in the criminal justice system. Where we have
got instances where Procurator Fiscal's officers are very loath
to take cases forward then we find the number of reported cases
is low as well. That is something that I think is very concerning.
Q281 Mr Davidson:
Why do you believe they are loath to take these cases forward?
Mr Milne: There is the whole question
of fear, there is the question of stigma, of being put on the
stand.
Q282 Mr Davidson:
No, sorry, the question of the Procurator Fiscal taking them forward.
I thought you were saying the Procurator Fiscal's department was
loath to take them forward.
Mr Milne: Yes.
Q283 Mr Davidson:
Why do you believe that is?
Mr Milne: I do not know if it
is an attitudinal problem that exists within certain offices or
not. We do not know the reasons why but I can say we do have evidence
that shows in Dundee a very small amount of reported cases were
taken forward to the courts. It has increased over the past couple
of years but that is probably because we have got a Domestic Abuse
Forum in Dundee now and that has given a lot more support and
encouragement to the victims to get the problem sorted out, so
I think that is a good thing, but in the past there was not and
where you have got areas where there is a small amount of cases
being taken forward there is less likelihood of people being confident
to do that.
Q284 Mr Davidson:
In procedural terms is this an issue on which you as a Forum have
met with the Procurator Fiscal's service in Dundee and raised
with them?
Mr Milne: We have raised it through
the Domestic Abuse Forum and we have had some discussion with
the local police force around the whole question because the figures
that we got from the Scottish Executive showed that at one time
there were 680 and something reported cases and not one case went
to court.
Q285 Mr Davidson:
Why have you not spoken to the Procurator Fiscal's department
directly and said you are not happy with this?
Mr Gordon: We have just never
done it, I do not know why.
Mr Milne: We have had discussions
informally with Tayside Police and with the chair of the Domestic
Abuse Forum.
Q286 Mr Davidson:
We have had discussions with Strathclyde Police in my own area
about various things and they just say, "Well, look, it is
out of our hands, it is the Procurator Fiscal's department"
and unless you deal with the Procurator Fiscal's department directly
you are not dealing with the people who are responsible for these
sorts of decisions.
Mr Milne: I take that point, yes.
Q287 Mr MacNeil:
You were saying that the level of prosecutions was related to
the attitude in the Procurator Fiscal's department to treat this.
Have you any evidence or any example where when the Procurator
Fiscal's department does prosecute or chase more of these cases
the levels of reported abuse go up and people are more likely
to come forward and take it a stage further?
Mr Milne: There is a report that
was published at the end of last year that confirms what you are
saying, that where there is support for the victims then there
is more likelihood that people will report and follow through
the case. We are not saying that is a major issue in regard to
poverty but it is one of the related factors that although cases
of domestic abuse go right across the social spectrum and are
awful for the people who have been subjected to it, because of
this stress and pressure on low incomes there is a tendency for
that type of situation to be prevalent within these types of households.
Q288 Ms Clark:
I am moving on to a slightly different issue and it is an issue
that Myra touched on in her opening submission. In your memorandum
you say that children who are entitled to free school meals or
have additional support needs and are being looked after by local
authorities are four times more likely to be excluded from school.
I think Myra said that Dundee has got the highest rates in Scotland
for school exclusion. Why do you think that is the case? Why do
you think that these factors mean that children end up being more
likely to be excluded from school?
Ms Mackenzie: Although the Additional
Learning Support Bill aims to reduce barriers to learning from
all types of problems that children may have, the reality in schools
is there are not enough resources for support, so for children
who have disability where the mainstream inclusion idea is the
approach that they put forward, and every parent who has a child
who has any disability wants access to education and their particular
needs being met, the reality is where there are behavioural difficulties
arising either from disability or family problems the easiest
option is to exclude. Legally the schools have a lot more scope
to exclude a child rather than admit there are not the resources
or the expertise or training. Particularly in relation to attention
deficit or hyperactivity, behavioural problems, autism, although
these things are much more prevalent than they were in the past
and much more recognised, there is not the support there and schools
are struggling with these problems and in so doing exclusion becomes
a standard that they have to cope with sending them home and the
parent is left time without number with a child who is temporarily
excluded but there is no home support or nothing to pick them
up.
Q289 Ms Clark:
Do you think it is more that an individual child cannot cope without
support and, therefore, behaviour manifests itself which the school
cannot cope with?
Ms Mackenzie: I think it is both.
I think the behaviours are not recognised and the supports that
are needed and the adequate support and understanding and alternative
educational styles are not recognised.
Q290 Ms Clark:
One of the other issues that you talk about in your memorandum
is the whole issue of suicide rates and the very high level of
suicide rates. You make a statement in your memorandum which is
a rhetorical question, I suppose, which says: "Do we need
to improve services for vulnerable adults with earlier and ongoing
intervention, and should suicide and self-harm be considered as
an equalities issue due to the vulnerability of poorer people?"
Could you suggest what your answer is to that question. Do you
see it as an equalities issue? What do you think needs to be done
to address this issue?
Ms Mackenzie: Again, I think it
is a spiral that people find themselves in. Young people who are
excluded become isolated. If they go to their GP with problems,
if it is bullying and they are constantly excluded, the situation
becomes more and more entrenched and that leads to isolation.
I do not think the social work services pick up these situations.
They pick up situations where the families are already perhaps
involved but the time and the resources of social work, even though
that is their area of responsibility, mean we find young people
who are suffering from all sorts of situations who do not have
any access to support or counselling or anything that will take
them away from prescribed drugs and then drug addition or suicidal
feelings. There is a whole range of non-intervention early enough
and that sadly stems back sometimes to as early as primary and
exclusions throughout primary and secondary.
Q291 Ms Clark:
We are a Westminster Committee and a lot of the solutions that
you are calling for are probably things that the Scottish Executive
or local council would more properly be responsible for. In terms
of any Westminster response to any of these issues, have you got
any comment to make or do you think it is more properly a matter
for the Scottish Executive and is a matter for Westminster making
sure the funding is there?
Ms Mackenzie: With exclusions,
if there was a more proactive policy of not excluding, rather
than exclusions being accepted or the exclusion policy being accepted
as a way of dealing with it, if there was a more active policy
of reducing them, as was mentioned in some areas in the report,
where that has worked that has knock-on effects to all of these
other factors that we are talking about.
Q292 Mr Walker:
Brian, yesterday we discussed the frustration felt by people who
want to work but cannot take part-time work because if they do
take that part-time work and it does not last for any significant
period of time or it is under a certain number of hours the actual
cost to them in benefit withdrawal would outweigh the advantages
both in earning an income but also in having a job and socialising
with other people in the workplace. I assume that is the problem
because we discussed it yesterday. How large a problem is it in
reality?
Mr Gordon: When you know so many
people who are unemployed or are in that trap you get to realise
that the willingness of these people to find a job is put off
by the fact if they go into that job and are only there a few
weeks and realise it is not working, then the rigmarole of having
to go back and apply for benefits or wait the 13 weeks or whatever
it is to get back on Incapacity Benefit is just not worth it.
There is a large amount of people out there in that frame of mind
because of the system. If we changed the system to giving them
a trial period of, say, 12 weeks in work and if it did not work
out for whatever reason or if they felt pressurised they could
go back into the system they had before without a loss of benefits,
that would be a big factor in people's thinking.
Q293 Mr Davidson:
We met the DWP yesterday as well from Jobcentre Plus and they
indicated that sort of system under the new regime will occur.
Have you discussed that with them in any sort of detail just to
clarify some of the anxieties that you have would be overcome
by the new system?
Mr Gordon: Not directly with that
group but we have always stated as an Anti Poverty Forum that
this is an issue with people who are long-term unemployed, this
is an issue that they wish to be changed so that it would be more
attractive for them.
Q294 Mr Davidson:
Following on directly from that, can I ask about the in-work position
of people. I have been constantly told by people in my area from
Jobcentre Plus that they will do calculations that demonstrate
almost invariably somebody is better off in work than remaining
on benefits despite common perceptions. Have you had examples
of case studies done jointly with DWP where that is not the case?
Mr Gordon: No. What we go on is
the people we meet, the people who come to the Dundee Anti Poverty
Forum, people like me and you that you meet in the pubs.
Q295 Mr Davidson:
I am always a bit wary of conversations I have in pubs, not that
I go into them myself you understand but people report these things
to me!
Mr Gordon: Sometimes that is where
you get to know what your best benefits are.
Q296 Mr Davidson:
Indeed. There are a lot of misapprehensions abroad about this
situation and my impression is that the DWP have been telling
us, certainly in my area, that almost invariably people are better
off going back into work because of the calculations, particularly
in relation to Working Families Tax Credit. If they are not having
a dialogue with yourselves to outline that then clearly there
is something wrong with the procedure. If you have been having
a dialogue with them and it has shown they are not correct then
that is something we would want to be aware of. I am not clear
what the position is at the moment.
Mr Milne: We have had discussions
with Alan Miller, who is heading up the Employability Framework,
and have had meetings with the relevant partners in the local
council and Jobcentre Plus regarding trying to be more innovative
in ensuring that Employability Framework can make a significant
impact in supporting people with particular barriers to work getting
back into work. The situation that we have in Dundee, and I think
Erik has outlined it to some degree as well, is the polarisation
we have in the local economy. We have got the knowledge-based
jobs and the low level entry and if you are in a situation that
you have been reliant on benefit for a long period of time and
the only option for employment for you is to get into low level
entry jobs that are very much marginal employment, part-time,
low-paid, sometimes shift working, short-term contracts, little
career possibilities, no proper training on the job, then you
can understand that people are reticent regardless of the economic
factor of you are better off or not better off in the medium-term
going into work and the problem is if that is not sustainable
over a period of time and you have got no vision in that sense
then very quickly you are going to be back claiming benefits again
and having to go through the process of reclaiming all that you
had in the past.
Q297 Mr Davidson:
I understand that, but if you overcome this issue of transition,
the 13 weeks, as I believe we have elsewhere where they go back
on to where they were before, that should be much less of a problem.
Mr Milne: Very much so.
Q298 Mr Davidson:
If people are in a position where they are going to be better
off as a result of an in-work calculation which demonstrates that
and they have got the assurance of a safety net of being able
to go back on at the level of benefit they were at before, that
should remove a great deal of the disincentive. Certainly in some
areas, I am not sure if this will apply in Dundee, there are opportunities
where if you start off with the initial job it is then much easier
to get other jobs and work your way up the ladder. There must
be some sort of occupation to fill in the gap between the very
high level jobs and the very low level jobs in Dundee, notwithstanding
the fact that there might be fewer of them.
Mr Milne: We are speaking about
knowledge-based jobs here, the high level jobs in biotechnology,
in the Health Service and health research, in the universities
and even within the council and council departments, but if you
have not got the degree then you are not going to get the job.
Support for people who have been low educational attainers moving
on into further education is always very helpful so that they
have got a path that could give them a career in the future, but
that is not for everyone and the problem we have is what is left,
not so much the people who have got the capability to move on
and get better qualified, better trained to go into higher level
employment, but for the rump which is left at the bottom, which
is thousands of people in the City of Dundee, 10% of the working
age population on Incapacity Benefit, moving them is a major,
major task and it is not going to be easy when we have got a situation
where the vast majority of jobs that are on offer are low level
entry jobs.
Q299 Mr Walker:
As far as alleviating poverty is concerned, the Government introduced
the National Minimum Wage a number of years ago and it has been
uprated on an annual basis, I believe, it is somewhere around
£5.30 or £5.50, I am not quite sure of the exact figure
at the moment. Where would you like to see that go as far as a
living wage is concerned? Over the next three years how would
you like to see that wage rise?
Mr Milne: Two things. First of
all, we would like to see the discrimination to access within
the minimum wage system being removed so that people who are 18
years of age who are doing the same job as someone who is 25 can
get the same wage as them, even if it is the minimum. We do appreciate
that has made a significant contribution to moving people out
of low wage earning situations. You could pluck a figure out of
the air but there has been some formula that has been used to
say this is the adequate level people need to survive on and the
Low Pay Unit in Glasgow, the Scottish Low Pay Unit, figured that
out at around £7.80 an hour, which is considerably more than
it is at the present time. You could say that is a barometer of
what we should be looking to try to achieve in the foreseeable
future. There are different ways of calculating it and income
adequacy is a very important thing that has to be focused on.
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