Examination of Witnesses (Quesitons 180-199)
MR HARRY DONALDSON, MR KENNY JORDAN, MR KEVIN MCALONAN, AND MR SATNAM NER
4 MARCH 2008
Q180 Mr Devine: Like Unite, do you have designated lifelong learning, full-time officers?
Mr Donaldson: We do not have designated lifelong learning full-time officers. We try to instil in every officer we have out there in the field the aspect that that should become part of their normal routine. When they are in working in a company they should always be working on the basis of ensuring union learning reps, looking at the training provision provided by the employer and a caring commitment to that. Rather than have them designated, we try to embed it into the whole organisation. That is the way we try to approach it.
Mr McAlonan: Both within the public sector and private sector we have tried to work very closely with the employers, the MoD or the private sector companies, in developing the training and developmental agendas, the skills agenda—actually making sure that skills is an issue on joint committees. That it is something that everyone is involved in. We have done a lot of work around building our union learning representative networks. We have not been able to translate that then into action quite so well, by giving people tasks within their employment areas, and that is something on which we are working at the moment. We are currently involved, using money from the Union Modernisation Fund, in a bid to introduce more diversity into the defence sector, both public and private, to try to get more women, more Asians, more black people working in the defence sector. It is overwhelmingly a white sector. One of the things I notice, for instance, is that something like 7% of mechanical engineering graduates are women, 11% of electrical engineering graduates are women, 15% of civil engineering graduates are women, yet there are very few women engineers within the defence sector. We are looking at how we can encourage the employers to address those issues. We did some work a few years ago around how you encourage young Asians into engineering, in particular. Again, I think we need more of those sorts of initiatives to broaden the base, to say that the defence sector is a sector that welcomes women graduates, Asian graduates, as well as the traditional graduates that you get. We are also doing a lot of work with the organisation and with the employers at the moment about skills conversion, identifying what the key skills are for the next ten to 20 years and how you get people to move from jobs that are perhaps not quite so required into jobs that will be required over the next ten years or so—particularly around engineering, particularly around logistics, which is an area that has changed enormously as a result of technical progress, and particularly project management jobs. All of that work is being done jointly with the employers, and I think you would have great difficulty separating us between our view of the future and theirs. That is one of the good things that have happened.
Q181 Chairman: Is there anything industry should be doing or the Government should be doing or the trade union movement should be doing to attract more women and people from Asian backgrounds into the engineering and industry?
Mr McAlonan: I think it is about how we sell the industry. We have to overcome the concept of engineering is something as being something of a macho, a dirty job almost. When you look at the work of the vast majority of people I represent—men with suits in offices or, increasingly these days, women with suits in offices—it is a very different job from how it was in the past.
Q182 Chairman: Do you think it is the case that it is a dirty job? If you go out to the airport, you will see members of the Asian community working cleaning toilets and the women doing those jobs, so I do not understand what the relevance of that is.
Mr McAlonan: It is interesting that you raise that. I spent quite a lot of time in the aviation industry up in Scotland, Glasgow Airport, and I recall—and I am going back about six years now—that I do not think there was one black or Asian employee employed at Glasgow Airport by the airport management company until they suddenly realised it when a rather large black traveller from Chicago demanded to see the general manager to see why were there no black people employed at Glasgow Airport. It suddenly dawned upon them that it was in fact the case and yet they were sitting in a part of Glasgow which had quite a high percentage of Asian people living there. Why were they not attracting them? We did a lot of work with that employer to open up those opportunities—and won awards as a consequence of that—but that was a good example of the trade unions and the employer recognising there was a problem and working together try to resolve it. I think we have to do similar things around the defence industry. Part of it is the way in which the industry is sold and portrayed. We have to look more closely at how we do. I would say that there is some work going on in those areas at the moment and hopefully it will continue.
Q183 Mr Davidson: To some extent is it not laziness by the employers, because they have routes by which they recruit people and they do not bother breaking out of that? That has certainly been the experience in my area, where lots of local schools do not have a chance to get into some of the employers, BAE or Talis, or have not traditionally in the past, because they had traditional routes that they just used. If you did not have access to those internal networks, you were not able to break into them. The focus on race and gender I think is important but there is also an issue about social class as well, about making sure that those at the bottom of the economic pile just now have access to those opportunities.
Mr McAlonan: Certainly, my colleague Satnam is keeping very quiet here, hiding his light under a bushel, but he is doing a lot of work in schools at the moment, promoting engineering, promoting himself as an Asian man, promoting trade unionism—that there is nothing wrong with going into work and joining a trade union. There is a lot of work going on in these areas but, inevitably, it takes some time.
Q184 Chairman: If you go to London airport, you will see the majority of people working there are from the Asian background. Is it the case that agency work has been provided there and agencies provide cheap labour and the people who are making profits out of this are the agencies?
Mr McAlonan: It is difficult to me to speculate on an industry in which I am not properly involved, but I imagine you are fairly accurate in terms of your assumptions there. It is very noticeable in the areas that I work that there have been serious attempts to try to deal with those issues, to portray women and black and Asian people in a more positive light so that they do become role models for the future. I have just come from a meeting a couple of days ago with Admiral Hussain, one of Britain's highest ranking Asian officers. There are more and more women now been brought forward into senior military positions—and remember that something like one quarter of the people in the Ministry of Defence are military. All of that is helping to change things but change does not happen overnight. We can see an industry that is potentially going to expand over the next eight to ten years, they are going to be looking for new people with new skills, they need to think about their audience for those skills and how they encourage people who might not be those who have traditionally gone into this sector to join it. That is not closing the doors to the traditional sector but saying that we need to open these doors to other people as well, and we would like to work with them on that.
Q185 David Mundell: In one of our previous evidence sessions we debated with employers the consolidation of the shipbuilding industry as part of this joint venture between BAE and VT. Are you worried that such a consolidation could result in less work being carried out in Scotland?
Mr Jordan: I think the joint venture is crucial to the programme. I do not think that on their own they could in any way commit to the order that has been placed. I do not see that as being a problem; I see it as being a supplement.
Q186 David Mundell: Everybody is positive about joint ventures.
Mr Donaldson: The indication of the industry at present is that it is a route they have decided to take in terms of ensuring that the capability and competence levels were there. In terms of that, it has had a marked effect in terms of the VT Group. You can see from that the issue in terms of up skilling the migrant labour force also that is involved and employed with VT. There is certainly benefit to be gained for both parties in terms of that joint-venture in terms of capability to deliver and in terms of ordering and that whole process. It is working at present for those involved it may well be that that is the way to the future, we do not know as yet there may well be more joint ventures embarked upon. It is too early to say.
Q187 David Mundell: Is the current level of employment sustainable?
Mr Jordan: BAE Systems in their submission submitted that there was a sustainable level of employment there.
Mr Donaldson: Based on the orders and the procurement there, then obviously it can be sustainable, bearing in mind that, particularly in Scotland, it does impact on areas of the economy in certain rural areas also, where the economic stability and social fabric of these areas could be markedly affected by any lack of sustainability. Again that touches back onto earlier questions and comments.
Q188 David Mundell: It was previously made very clear to us the difference between naval and non-naval vessels. What about the scope for non-naval work and how that would affect employment if there were to be an ability to do more non-naval work?
Mr Jordan: That is an area that is more difficult to quantify. Certainly the shipyards in Scotland more geared towards the naval contracts. We do know of a commercial yard in Greenock that might benefit if there were more market-place opportunity for non-naval.
Q189 Mr Davidson: We have a set question to ask you about how important the aircraft carrier is for Rosyth and the Clyde, but I think you are going to tell is that it is absolutely vital so I will not bother asking you that question unless you disagree. I do want to ask you about your vision for you post carrier. Clearly the Navy does not exist just to provide worked in the shipyards. Once the Type 45 and the MARS and the aircraft carriers are all built what is going to happen then?
Mr Donaldson: The longer-term vision has to be: Where do you redirect these skills towards? We touched on the basis that Scotland is the ideal opportunity in terms of wind and wave power and renewables. There could be a huge industry in Scotland developed in terms of looking more towards the commercial side, post carrier. That is one element there that can create sustainability in the short to medium term, but longer-term we need to look at the prospects of being a world-class leader in terms of production and manufacturing and in terms of renewables. We are well positioned to make that investment at present and we could be a world leader in terms of that and in terms of this whole issue.
Q190 Mr Davidson: That is spoken as a manufacturing representative.
Mr Donaldson: Yes.
Q191 Mr Davidson: It is difficult to see what would happen to all the drawing office guys, for example, under that sort of transformation. One of the anxieties I have in representing part of the area is whether or not the companies are going to be geared up sufficiently and effectively enough to be able to get orders from elsewhere in the world for that period. I wonder whether or not you can give us any guidance in your view as to whether or not that is possible.
Mr Donaldson: I think that probably some of these companies that you have touched base on are going to need support and help themselves in order to move outwith the areas in which they are and to seek new markets and opportunities in markets, research and development. There is a key issue about some of the work that has been done that has been sent out in terms of the MARS project just now. The R&D has been done here but it is going to be produced in Korea. There may well be areas, not just in MoD work but in other areas and other fields, that could use the skills of people in drawing offices and other ancillary and supportive roles, not just manufacturing itself, that could be adapted and developed to go to. I do not clearly have all the answers but there is a vision there to say that these people do have levels of skills and abilities that could be transferable and applied in other areas with a bit of innovation and creativity. It is going to take some work with government, to also work with the employers and trade unions on a triple alliance to be able to develop and scope out where the future lies, and to do some scenario planning about where they will want to be and where the future is going to lead us to.
Q192 Mr Davidson: Are you satisfied that is being done sufficiently at the moment?
Mr Donaldson: No, it is not. I think there needs to be some more futures development done.
Q193 Mr Davidson: In terms of thinking ahead for the training needs, is that being adequately funded at the moment?
Mr Donaldson: I think again that is a key area. What does the work of the future in 10 to 15 years look like? What are going to be the skill sets that are needed? I do not think there is sufficient work being done in that field just now to look at what skills are going to be required. Do we have the ability—to touch base on something I said earlier—with the early years intervention, all the way through schooling, through the whole genre of different areas, to develop what the skill sets are going to be?
Mr McAlonan: To take that last question on skilling within the public sector, the answer is yes. An enormous amount of work has been put into funding schools' requirements for the next five to 10 years. I can only commend them for having recognised that and seeking to do that.
Mr Ner: I can talk about the future of Rosyth, post carrier. I think there will be a requirement for through-life support: docking, maintenance, perhaps refits. If assembly and integration is going to be done at Rosyth, it obviously is going to have the facilities that are ideal for that type of work.
Q194 Mr Davidson: The ongoing maintenance work and so on has not been agreed yet, has it?
Mr Ner: No. It is not agreed. Perhaps there is a role for Rosyth to compete.
Q195 Mr Davidson: Only, presumably, if Rosyth remains one of the home ports for the Royal Navy. Of course that depends on whether or not, there is constitutional change, does it not?
Mr Ner: Yes, but, in terms of facilities, would you create another facility to do all that dry-docking work? Would it be the best investment, going forward?
Q196 Mr Davidson: That is right, but it might be necessary, of course, if it is not a home port.
Mr Ner: There is also going to be a continued element of traditional surface ship refitting for the remainder of the Navy that Rosyth will continue to compete for.
Q197 Mr Davidson: Which Navy is that?
Mr Ner: The Royal Navy.
Q198 Mr Davidson: Yes, the Royal Navy. I just wanted to make sure I understood that!
Mr Ner: You were talking of design office, drawing office jobs. Currently some 50% of drawing office design work is for non MoD contracts, so there is a demonstrated diversification outside of the Ministry which we hope will continue.
Q199 Mr Davidson: Is that freestanding or does that again depend on there being an MoD baseload?
Mr Ner: There were moves afoot to make our design and technology a separate business entity within the Babcock International Group, so it looks like it is a freestanding workload that is not dependent on MoD contracts. We also will have Rosyth's extensive facilities for manufacturing which could be extended into modular build type work. With a lot of that, post carrier, the Babcock management at Rosyth need to be quite visionary and forward-looking.
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