Examination of Witnesses (Quesitons 200-207)
MR HARRY DONALDSON, MR KENNY JORDAN, MR KEVIN MCALONAN, AND MR SATNAM NER
4 MARCH 2008
Q200 Mr Davidson: Are they?
Mr Ner: Currently, I think their track record has been to decline the workforce and their capabilities.
Q201 Mr Davidson: The next question I have been asked to ask you is this: one of the conveners in the shipyard—the name is not to be given but it was in the GMB—suggested that shipbuilding could be shut by 2010, that the yards could be shut and so on. That was not quite as alarmist as The Evening Times which ran a headline recently "We're sunk. Yard is to shut in two years". That was two months ago, I think, so we only have potentially 22 months to go. I would like to clarify with yourselves whether or not you think that is unduly alarmist, the suggestions of 22 months and also 2010.
Mr Donaldson: Having had the conveners in (who shall remain nameless) from the areas concerned and had a debate and discussion with them, I think there was an element there on the one side that felt it was an alarmist approach and on the other side that it was vindicated by the fact that there was a feeling and a real concern that there was going to be a genuine gap and that gap was then going to lead to the other areas that we have discussed. It was about the whole concept of losing out on skills and potential redundancies. The justification for that is that it has brought a number of people out into the open on making commitments in regard to that, that the future does not look as precarious as it might once have viewed—and I am choosing my words very carefully on this occasion. I think there is now an acceptability across the piece that the issue is quite clear, that there is a sustainability. There was and did appear to be a genuine concern at the time. The comments that were attributed by The Evening Times I have it on good assurance were not the words used by the convener; however, I am sure we all appreciate, particularly colleagues such as those in this room, the degree of editorial licence that is sometimes used by the press. Hopefully, that maybe answers your question.
Q202 Mr Davidson: The journalist involved said it was not him who wrote the headline and nobody can find who wrote the headline.
Mr Donaldson: The convener says it was not him who said it, I can assure you!
Q203 Mr Davidson: That is right. Following on from that, in the discussions there were with Lord Drayson about the Defence Industrial Strategy and so on, it seems to me that there have been pretty clear assurances given there that once particular capabilities are identified as being core they are then going to be sustained. Has that given you the assurances that you are looking for? Albeit that there are some difficulties at the moment about the timing of particular orders because there is more potential demand than there is money, does that give a degree of reassurance to yourselves?
Mr Donaldson: Having met with the conveners and deputy conveners last week in the regional office in Glasgow, I am now left with some confidence that they seem reassured as to the sustainability and the timing issue being rectified. They certainly left that meeting giving me the impression that they were in a much more relaxed position than previously one of them was.
Mr Davidson: They all, including the one whom you may have heard from, met Baroness Taylor at the cutting of steel on Friday and were greatly reassured, so hopefully that has put a lot of that to bed. Thank you, Chairman.
Q204 Chairman: Since 1997 the shipbuilding industry on the Clyde has been there because of the stern commitment from the Government to the future of the shipbuilding industry in Scotland and on the Clyde. Do you agree with me that it is absurd to suggest in the media that the shipbuilding industry is there because of media pressure on the Government or the fear of independence in Scotland?
Mr Jordan: I would just say that newspapers need to sell their copies. Over a number of years there has been media coverage that has not been quite accurate. If we strip away the spin from the reporters, then the fundamental fact is there that it is because of government support that the shipyards are still there on the Clyde.
Mr Donaldson: We do believe it is because of government support but, fundamentally, it is because they know that these orders will be fulfilled, because they have a level of quality and skills on the Clyde that make it absolutely vital, first, to Scotland but, secondly, to the fulfilment of these orders that they know they have a quality workforce who will deliver.
Mr McAlonan: I have been involved in the defence industry for only about 18 months and I have gone from one place to another with announcements of closures, none of them ever actually happening. The decision was taken on a naval base review that was a good decision from our point of view in terms of retaining the bases. We have a lot of issues around rationalisation within those bases, as in the private sector, but the future would appear to be as secure for the next 10 years or so as you can get in manufacturing.
Q205 Chairman: Is it right that it is because of the partnership between industry and the Government and of course the dedication and commitment from the workforce that we are able to sustain this shipbuilding industry on the Clyde and in Scotland?
Mr McAlonan: Yes. One of the very good things coming out of the Defence Industrial Strategy has been that public-private alliance that does appear to be working quite well. It gives us as the union more confidence in future employment security. We know we have some issues over the next few years in terms of rationalisation but the hope is that we will then have created something that is sustainable.
Q206 Chairman: We have already touched on issues of flexible training and multi-skilling and apprenticeships. Now we are lucky that we have our friend Angus MacNeil here as well. I think it will be helpful to have this most articulate Member, so that he can lobby the Scottish Administration that for the future of Scotland it is crucial that we invest in training, in skills and in apprenticeships, and the Scottish government should give a 100% commitment to this.
Mr Donaldson: As I say, it is vital to the Scottish economy, and I am sure Angus will support that and lobby as heavily as he can. As I say, I have a meeting, I think next week or the week thereafter, to discuss the whole concept of investment in training and development and skills within Scotland and on what the Scottish Government is going to do to support and ensure that is delivered in Scotland. I am confident that through STUC, the joint trade unions, and heavy lobbying that we will all be doing with support, I am sure, from Angus, that we will push that agenda very heavily in terms of the future of Scotland's skilled workforce.
Mr MacNeill: I note the confidence there. Very good.
Q207 Chairman: Perhaps I could thank the witnesses for their attendance today. Before I declare the meeting closed, do wish to say anything in conclusion, perhaps on the ideas not covered during questions?
Mr Donaldson: I am satisfied that we have covered all the elements, and that the questions that needed to be asked by ourselves have been asked.
Chairman: Thank you very much, once again, for your attendance. I am sure your evidence will be very useful to the committee when we compile report. Thank you very much.
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