Examination of Witnesses (Questions 420
- 436)
WEDNESDAY 13 JUNE 2007
MR MARK
THOMPSON
Q400 Chairman:
Mr T Q420 Chairman: You surely must show some inquisitiveness
about this?
Mr Thompson: There is a fair amount of business
which is properly the Trust's. For example, and I think it is
quite a good example, in the matter of the public value test,
which are formal findings by the Trust on important matters, we
are called from time to time—in a public value test like
the iPlayer—to give evidence and to submit documents at
various stages in the process. The deliberations by the Trust
on whether or not to give approval are meetings at which we are
absolutely not present, and we are informed about the conclusions
of the Trust at the same time that everyone else is.
Q421 Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick:
Gavyn Davies, in his responses, seemed to imply that in his day
the relationship between the chairman of the governors and the
governors, and their relationship with the BBC, was sufficiently
close to allow better decision-making about prospective strategy
and programming issues; whereas you are saying very clearly that
that separation now has led to a more transparent system. However,
would you say that it is a better decision-making process?
Mr Thompson: The sensible thing to say is that
we are a few months into this process. There were some members
of this Committee who took a view that the thing was never going
to work. To be honest, I have to say that the early indications
are that you are wrong. I think that it is going to work.
Chairman: I do not think that we did
say that, actually. I think that any system can work.
Q422 Lord King of Bridgwater:
Some are better than others.
Mr Thompson: For what it is worth, I think that
the early practical indications on the ground are quite promising.
We will all discover, over the next few years, whether it will
work. I thought that there was one particular point that Gavyn
made which was quite interesting, when he talked about the role
of the Chairman of the Board of Governors as being not quite executive
but full-time. That is quite a telling phrase. We are now very
clear that we have a non-executive Chair of the BBC who chairs
the Trust, and we have a full-time Chief Executive who happens
to chair the Executive Board of the BBC—which, by the way,
is normal in PLCs—who is the full-time executive Chief Executive
of the BBC. It seems to me that that is a rather undramatic, normal
state of affairs.
Q423 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
There is one aspect of it that is not normal. In most respects
I would agree with your analysis and that it is not particularly
controversial, except for the provision that the Executive Board
could be chaired by a non-executive chairman.
Mr Thompson: Yes.
Q424 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
Could you explain to us, so far as you are able, what the thinking
was behind that provision? Secondly, could you say in what way
you think the Board, were it to be chaired by a non-executive
chairman, would operate differently? How would it then relate
to the Trust?
Mr Thompson: It is worth saying that the system
is very definitely the Government's system. It is the Government's
proposal. Using a recently used phrase, I believe that it is one
that can be made to work, and indeed to work better than the previous
system. What I cannot do, however, is tell you definitively why
this provision was made in the arrangements: except to say it
seems to me that it offers flexibility in the system. I think
that it is unlikely in practice that the BBC Trust will, at any
point I can foresee, wish to have a non-executive Chairman of
the Executive Board, not least because, if you have looked at
the fine print of what is talked about, they would then lose the
ability to appoint the Chief Executive and would only be able
to approve the appointment of the Chief Executive. I think it
is unlikely that any future BBC Trust will lose the full appointment
power of the Chief Executive of the BBC. My assumption is that
there was a feeling that at some point it might be desirable.
Q425 Chairman:
I think you would concede that we were also critical on this particular
point in our last report. From what you are saying, it sounds
frankly nuts—absurd.
Mr Thompson: Can I talk about the system that
we do have at the moment? I think that it is working well. We
have a body of non-execs on the Executive Board who are very distinguished,
led by Marcus Agius, the Chairman of Barclays PLC, who is the
senior non-exec. They are in a voting minority on this Executive
Board. I have to say that I have told them and the Trust that
it is unthinkable that, if they were unhappy with something as
a bloc, I would vote against them or allow anything to go through
without their support. In my view, they are adding immense value
to our decision-making. It has transformed the quality of debate
and decision-making. The external perspectives they are bringing
are, in every way, improving the debate that takes place at the
highest level of the executive side of the BBC. Moreover, they
are not conflicted in the way that the governors were conflicted.
They can be advisers; they can be champions; supporters and, behind
closed doors, very frank critics of what we are doing; but they
are very definitely on the side of the management, trying to make
sure that our strategies and proposals are as good as possible.
The Trustees now have a different role. They are also supporters
of what the BBC could be for licence payers and of the BBC's values
and its ultimate public purposes, but they are there as scrutineers
and overseers of what the BBC does. So that thing which was a
bit confused in the role of the governors—when are they
champions, when are they not; when are they advisers, when are
they standing in judgment over the BBC?—has been clarified
in a helpful way.
Q426 Baroness Howe of Idlicote:
The criticism which perhaps the Chairman was aiming at was much
more the idea that the chairman should be a non-executive, which
is one which I think would worry quite a lot of us. I share the
concern expressed by Lady Thornton about BBC Jam, which I had
seen a little of and which was very impressive: not least in its
ability to support both teachers and individual students, particularly
ones who perhaps had learning difficulties. The language learning
side, which we are so bad at in this country—different language
learning, I am talking about—was clearly seen as a good
resource. I merely throw that in. What I would really like to
ask you about is the whole area of switchover. The one real hole
is just how much the cost will be of supporting the vulnerable,
which has landed—against our previous decision, I may say—in
the hands of the BBC, to sort out the vulnerable, the elderly,
and so on. There is also the black hole in terms of the cost of
making some sort of provision for those who cannot get digital.
Mr Thompson: Which particular black hole was
that one?
Chairman: Let us cut through this. Please
give a short reply to this, but we are on to other things now.
Q427 Baroness Howe of Idlicote:
What I am talking about is those who do not have the proper resources
to go straight to Sky, and that type of thing. Are you sure that
there is a big enough contingency fund to cover any fall-outs
from the digital switchover?
Mr Thompson: The obligations of the BBC are
essentially threefold. They are to provide our own services on
digital platforms, notably the build-out of the DTT transmitter
chain. Secondly, to support some of the wider industry costs and,
for example, the marketing spend of Digital UK, to make sure that
public information about digital switchover is in place. Thirdly,
to fund, and indeed to procure and manage, the so-called Targeted
Help Scheme of support to these vulnerable groups. On the first
two, I am very clear-cut and wholly satisfied. On the third one,
I now believe that we have an agreement in place with the Government
which provides adequate and appropriate safeguards; so that, for
example, if demand for the Targeted Help Scheme exceeds expectations,
ways will be found to ensure that it does not impact on the balance
of the licence fee, and therefore does not impact on the quality
and range of the BBC's services.
Q428 Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury:
A very quick clarification of an answer you gave to Lord Hastings.
I think that I was told by the Minister that you did not attend
Trust meetings. You do attend Trust meetings.
Mr Thompson: I attend parts of Trust meetings,
when I am invited to.
Q429 Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury:
You have to be specifically invited?
Mr Thompson: Yes.
Q430 Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury:
And that is by the chairman?
Mr Thompson: I do not want to mislead you. There
is an expectation that a significant part, though in all cases
not all, of the main monthly meeting of the Trust is attended
by me and other members of the management.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury: That
makes sense to me. Thank you.
Q431 Lord King of Bridgwater:
You drew attention to the huge volume of issues and complaints
that get raised with the BBC, and your desire for an absolutely
clear and transparent system for dealing with them. In a reply
to Lord Maxton, Sir Michael Lyons said that he would welcome MPs
writing to him; he would expect them to write to him, and he said
that he was already replying to a lot of letters. Just to be quite
clear about this, if he is replying to those letters, the reply
can only be, "I have passed this on to the Chairman of the
Executive Board".
Mr Thompson: To be clear about it, we have a
system of complaint handling, which begins with, where we can,
either BBC Information or individual programmes. Typically, a
letter to the Chairman of the BBC Trust or indeed to me will,
in the first instance, be passed down the system.
Q432 Lord King of Bridgwater:
Yes, that is what I meant. That is my point. It will be passed
down to somebody who is under your responsibility.
Mr Thompson: Yes.
Q433 Lord King of Bridgwater:
He said that you had clear, total responsibility for editorial
matters. He is not going to write back to somebody and say, "I
have had this letter. I think that they were wrong. They shouldn't
do it". He will not interfere in that way, will he?
Mr Thompson: Unless—
Q434 Lord King of Bridgwater:
Unless it has been considered—
Mr Thompson: Once it has been through the management
system, and if you were the complainant and you were unhappy,
at that point the Trust gets involved in the appeal process.
Q435 Lord King of Bridgwater:
So the reply will come from you or somebody in your part of the
organisation. The letter will simply be passed on for somebody
to reply to it in your organisation.
Mr Thompson: We are really getting into the
minutiae of the bureaucracy. It may well be that Lord Maxton would
get a reply, but the reply would typically say, "Thank you
for your letter. I have passed your complaint on".
Lord King of Bridgwater: Exactly.
Q436 Chairman:
We will not get into the minutiae, if you do not mind! Mr Thompson,
thank you very much indeed. You have been here all morning and
you have got the impression of what we are about, and doubtless
over the coming months we will continue discussions.
Mr Thompson: Perhaps I could extend a similar
invitation to the one made by Sir Michael Lyons. If at any point
you would like to meet or have a seminar, or indeed if members
here wanted, with the appropriate non-disclosure agreements, to
attend meetings of the Executive Board, you would be very welcome.
Chairman: That is very kind. Thank you
very much indeed.
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