Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140
- 159)
WEDNESDAY 28 FEBRUARY 2007
MR JOHN CORBET-MILWARD, MR PHILIP GOODBAND AND MR
PATRICK MCGRATH
Q140 Viscount Ullswater:
If we could perhaps go back to improving competitiveness, you
state in your excellent paper that you strongly support "the
creation of a comprehensive EU strategy so that a coherent approach
can be taken by the EU in relation to international negotiations",
and you actually go on to say that funds should be set aside within
the EU budget to support this objective. I do not know whether
you would like to be a bit more specific in how you see that developing
and what the objectives should be, what you are really looking
for as the result.
Mr Corbet-Milward: One of the reasons for the
Australian success in the UK market is that they did develop a
strategy fairly early on and they decided that they were going
to grow a lot of wine and sell it to the UK market; and they realised
what the consumer wanted in the United Kingdom and they produced
wines accordingly. By comparison, in Europe, because it is a very
grower-orientated scenario there, you get growers producing wines
which they have been producing for generations, some of which
are very good and an awful lot of which is not particularly good,
so there is this muddle about what should appear in the marketplace
as quality wine. The view at a European trade level is that the
European trade would be much better off if it took some of the
lessons learned in Australia and they put their heads together
to try to come up with a proper strategy with which they could
attack particularly the American market with much more cohesion
and vigour. Obviously you need money and you need a proper detailed
strategy to achieve that. That is as far as the discussions have
gone at both the UK and the European level, but it is an interesting
view and it merits serious thought, in my view.
Mr McGrath: It comes back to market forces,
I believe, very strongly.
Q141 Lord Moynihan:
I think my question has just been very eloquently answered, but
you might just want to go a little bit further because there is
this conflicting balance which the EU now faces between issues
which are attributable to the global surplus and, on the other
hand, the internal system of wine regulation within the EU. I
think the line you are taking very much is that, within the EU
in terms of wine regulation, it really needs to be addressed in
its own right in order to recognise the international market forces,
and the surplus in the global market or, as you alluded to, the
surplus in some of the New World markets in its own right would
be dealt with by those market forces if you removed some of the
inherent inhibitions to addressing the marketplace. Do you want
to comment a little further on that or tell me if I have summarised
what you have said on the structural measures inaccurately, as
I think it would be helpful if you were to crystallise your thinking
on that.
Mr Goodband: There was one other aspect which
is about, from the EU perspective, accepting all the OIV recommendations.
If the EU did that, then there would be a more level playing field
for the producers to do what I have been describing and that requires
a will. There are all sorts of strange situations, and I will
just quote you one where evaporation of must, which is the unfermented
grape juice, has been brought in in wet conditions. It is allowed
to be evaporated to concentrate it, but, on the other hand, if
the weather is too dry, you are not allowed to irrigate the vines
and the vines, when they are heat-stressed, simply shut down and
the quality of the wine is diminished. Now, that is illogical,
it is totally illogical, but it is within the regulations and
the current situation. Now, in OIV, those kind of technical advancements,
if you like, or rules are all dealt with.
Q142 Lord Moynihan:
I assume you have got a series of examples such as that, which
I will not ask you now for, but I think they would be quite helpful
to the Committee.
Mr Goodband: There are others, yes.
Q143 Lord Moynihan:
If, subsequent to your evidence, you put something in writing
along the lines of highlighting some of the specific issues, that
would be very helpful.
Mr Corbet-Milward: The blockages?
Q144 Lord Moynihan:
Yes, and other examples such as that.
Mr Corbet-Milward: Barriers to quality?
Q145 Lord Moynihan:
Exactly, barriers to quality.
Mr Corbet-Milward: I go to the OIV meetings,
and there are production techniques agreed at global level which,
as Philip has quite correctly said, are not allowed in Europe
because the rules stop them. I had a letter cross my desk the
other day from a major international company, saying that they
wanted to produce below-strength wine. The fact is that you cannot
do it because the EU rules say that you cannot go below nine%,
but there is a market for it. It seems to me dotty in Europe,
where there is all this pressure on the trade, with all the binge-drinking
and so on, why it is that wine-makers are not permitted to produce
wines of low strength.
Q146 Viscount Brookeborough:
In many areas, we would accuse the EU of interfering too much
in individual nations with rules and regulations. Who is the power
behind this stagnation? Is it the major big names trying to foster
the mystique of their wine-making?
Mr Corbet-Milward: No, it is producers dragging
their heels, "We have always done it this way . . . "
Q147 Viscount Brookeborough:
Sorry, I meant the major wine producers.
Mr Corbet-Milward: There are one and a half
million small growers in Europe: they do not want to change the
way they operate because it means they will have to spend more
money on equipment, et cetera, et cetera, that is where the problem
lies.
Mr McGrath: Generally with the producers who
are doing very well, they are so quality-orientated that generally
they actually do not need to change. What they are doing now they
are doing extremely well, making top-quality wine. It is actually
much lower down the pyramid where you have the inhibitions and
where they need to have much more freedom. Particularly if you
look at viticulture, I was always taught that a good wine is made
in a vineyard. If you go to a New World vineyard, you have all
sorts of different training and pruning techniques and yet, if
you go to Bordeaux or Burgundy, a lot of the good growers of a
Grand Cru Burgundy would not change anything. At a lower level
they would much prefer to be able to train and prune their vines
in a different way, but they cannot and yet, if you go to a New
Zealand vineyard, you get confused in five minutes because the
viticulturist will show you three different trials that he or
she is doing, and that is all in the search for quality.
Mr Goodband: What we are trying to paint a picture
of here is that at all levels, whether it be at the vineyard level,
whether it be at the winery level or whether it be at the marketing
level, there is far too much constraint and not enough freedom.
Mr Corbet-Milward: Then you jump into the AOC
world: I know their regulatory frameworks mirror who is related
to whom and how long people have spent time on that particular
patch of land and so forth, so there is a drag element, and the
really enthusiastic and entrepreneurial wine-makers, I would suggest,
are often held back by their own rules which they cannot change.
Mr McGrath: If I can make one other point. Climate
change is why it is even more important that we allow much more
flexibility, because the good growers all over the world are going
to have to adapt dramatically and they are not going to be able
to do what they were doing even five years ago.
Q148 Lord Palmer:
I have to say, I am finding this evidence absolutely fascinating.
I have two quick questions on marketing, one of which you have
already touched on when you answered Lord Ullswater's supplementary.
But, in an ideal world, how would your association tackle this
labelling problem?
Mr Corbet-Milward: Rip up what is there at the
moment and start again!
Q149 Chairman:
That is not a very pragmatic suggestion!
Mr McGrath: If I can add to that, I would give
the consumer what he wants.
Q150 Chairman:
Has anybody asked the consumer what he wants on the label?
Mr Goodband: Yes.
Q151 Chairman:
What do they say?
Mr Goodband: They want to have information that
they can understand, which might be, for example, grape variety,
they want to have keys to be able to buy it again when they see
it—
Q152 Chairman:
So you want the brand name, yes.
Mr Goodband:—brand of some description,
and they want simple information on the back—for example,
what might I serve this with.
Q153 Chairman:
And at what temperature.
Mr Goodband: Yes.
Mr McGrath: And what does it taste like.
Q154 Viscount Ullswater:
Is country of origin important?
Mr Goodband: Yes, to some extent it is important
and, if we take New Zealand as an example, it is a measure of
quality in its own right.
Mr Corbet-Milward: And Australia.
Mr Goodband: And Australia, yes.
Q155 Viscount Ullswater:
What about the blending of wines from various regions or countries?
Mr Goodband: A very interesting point, if I
may say so, because at the base level, at the bottom of the pyramid,
there has been a prohibition on blending wine across regions within
France, and I understand that a new law has just been agreed whereby
they will now allow this and create a new category of wine called,
I think, Vignoble de France—please do not hold me to that,
but I think that is what it is called—and that is in response
to the competition from other countries where cross-regional blending
is allowed, but that is at the base level.
Q156 Viscount Ullswater:
That should be on the label too?
Mr Goodband: It would be on the label, if my
understanding is correct, because it would be a category in its
own right, Vignoble de France, in other words simple French wine.
Then, of course, we come back to this question of what the consumer
wants to see on that label, and one of the most important things
would be to allow the grape variety to appear on that label, which
currently it does not.
Q157 Lord Palmer:
You mentioned how prestigious the wine fairs and shows are in
the New World. Has the European Union not got something to learn
from that: because it seems slightly the wrong way round, to my
thinking, in that France is the great producer of superb quality
and it has now gone topsy-turvy, so to speak?
Mr McGrath: I think they have a lot to learn.
I think there is a danger at times that there is a feeling that
they do not want to be seen to be following the New World. I had
a comment from one of the people I work with the other day, who
said, "I am horrified. I am acting like a New World brand
manager", and that came from a French commercial director,
and he knew he was doing the right thing and he was quite amused
about it, but I think one of the issues also is the complexity
of the number of operations and the structure of the appellation
which makes it much more complicated in France to do it. You get
some good local shows if you go to the Loire, or whatever, but
they do not market them in the same way. New Zealand have three
or four very high profile wine competitions, the most important
is sponsored by Air New Zealand, and that is the big event of
the year for the New Zealand wine industry—who wins the
top Pinot Noir award at the Air New Zealand Wine Awards—and
they all striving towards that.
Mr Goodband: One of the most obvious results
of wine competitions is the use of the seals on labels. If you
look at any wine shelf in any supermarket or wine shop, you will
find these gold medals, bronze medals, and that is the most tangible
result, and that is what the consumer needs. They need reassurance
as to the product they are buying.
Q158 Viscount Brookeborough:
You have already talked a fair amount about the practices of wine-making.
However, one issue, chaptalization, in the annex to your paper,
you went into at great length in your first paragraph, where it
talks about sugar beet. Does chaptalization also include acidifying
as well? Or are they at the opposite ends of chaptalization? Does
chaptalization cover acidifying as well?
Mr Goodband: No.
Mr Corbet-Milward: No. I should say that that
particular annex on chaptalization was drafted in consultation
for the UK Vineyards Association and I believe they are going
to come and give evidence in a few days time; so they will be
able to answer that in a lot of depth.
Q159 Viscount Brookeborough:
Your case against the ban seems to be well argued. Would you care
to expand on it at all? And could you explain to us what the complementary
process of acidifying wine in southern Europe involves?
Mr Corbet-Milward: In very broad terms, the
weather in different parts of Europe dictates what you have to
do to the wine to make it palatable for the consumer. My understanding
is that it would be preferable for certainly the northern European
producers, the UK producers, to be able to source their sweetening
material for chaptalization from a broader base than has been
mooted by the Commission. The suggestion has been put that rectified
concentrated grape must should be used, and that is a good way
of soaking up surplus wine. But there may be a cheaper way of
achieving exactly the same results, sugar beet possibly being
one of them. So we would certainly favour, as much as possible,
the ability of the producer to seek alternative sources of supply
to cut costs for his particular sweetener if it makes sense to
do it.
Mr Goodband: The whole point about creating
good wine is the question of balance: on the one hand having sufficient
alcohol, and in the more northerly climates it is necessary to
chaptalize in order to raise the alcohol level to give the wine
the balance; at the other end of the scale, where the weather
is very hot—the taste ripeness of those grapes—you
may find that when the taste is absolutely optimally right, the
acidity is too low and, therefore, it needs to be balanced upwards.
Hence the need for acidification. So it is really a climatic thing.
In cold climates you need to add some sugar to raise the alcohol;
in the hot climates you need to adjust the acidity.
| 
