Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160
- 175)
WEDNESDAY 28 FEBRUARY 2007
MR JOHN CORBET-MILWARD, MR PHILIP GOODBAND AND MR
PATRICK MCGRATH
Q160 Viscount Brookeborough:
In your view it does not make any difference to the quality of
wine whether the sugar levels have come from the growing or from
the chaptalization?
Mr Goodband: I do not think there is any evidence
to suggest that there is any difference.
Q161 Viscount Brookeborough:
Could you tell us in layman's terms what the use of what you call
rectified concentrated grape must involves? Is that when you talked
about the evaporation?
Mr Goodband: Rectified concentrated grape must
is must that has been concentrated and neutralised in flavour,
in simple terms.
Q162 Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer:
In other sectors of agriculture reform has gone hand in hand with
decoupled payments and cross compliance. In your written evidence
you do not seem to be at all keen on those decoupled and cross
compliance routes. I wondered why that was and why you do not
see it, to take your earlier words, as a pragmatic way forward
as well?
Mr Corbet-Milward: Decoupled payments, if it
is an arrangement that works, will make it work, and, as far as
I recollect from the Commission's proposal for "Profound
Reform", decoupled payments were not in there. I may be wrong
here, and I defer to the evidence that Defra gave you in that
area, but in principle we are not against decoupled payments if
people are prepared to agree to that and if in the package of
proposals put to growers it is something that they are happy to
buy into.
Q163 Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer:
So you are not actually against it as a way forward?
Mr Corbet-Milward: No.
Q164 Lord Palmer:
Could I ask another quick question following up on blending. You
mention that blending will be allowed in France shortly under
Vignoble de France, or whatever it was. Quite often, if one buys,
for example, tomato juice, it says, "Product of origin of
more than one country." Are you, in fact, able to ship wine
for blending around the European Union at the moment?
Mr Goodband: Yes, that is possible. In fact
quite a lot of the cheapest table wine being sold within European
countries, although I have to say not here in the UK, is the produce
of more than one European Union country.
Q165 Lord Palmer:
But not labelled as such?
Mr Goodband: It has a label which says so.
Q166 Lord Palmer:
It does?
Mr Goodband: Yes.
Lord Palmer: Thank you very much.
Lord Bach: Having heard your very interesting
evidence, it strikes me, and I dare say some of my colleagues
here, that beneath your pragmatic skin there is a real radical
deregulator fighting their way out!
Chairman: He is ending the way he started!
Q167 Lord Bach:
I do not think anyone would disagree with that. You defended yourselves
ably by saying it was to do with establishing some consensus with
the northern wine industry. But why should that consensus be on
the basis of being so utterly pragmatic and not be on a rather
more outspoken deregulatory package? Why are our colleagues in
northern Europe so reluctant themselves? Is it because they do
not want to fight with the Commission? Or is it because they do
not feel it is in their interests? I cannot understand why they
should take such a restricted view.
Mr Corbet-Milward: At a European level, as I
said in my earlier comments, the consensus was, "Let's go
for what we can actually achieve", bearing in mind that around
that table there are people representing growers. At a UK trade
level, there is no reason why we should not push for more than
we perhaps think that we might get. We would be very happy for
like-minded countries to come together so that, when it comes
to the trench warfare which will inevitably take place on this
issue, if there is a caucus of like-minded Member States who can
push for the deregulation, then we would strongly support it.
All I am saying is—do not be surprised if at the end of
the day we do not get it.
Q168 Viscount Brookeborough:
Can I come back to chaptalization for the moment. There is a paragraph
in the annex, which I understand you did not necessarily write
completely yourself, that says, "The impact of a ban on a
chaptalization and maximum enrichment of 2% would lead to additional
costs for producers in northern and central European wine areas
estimated at 15 to 25%." Surely, if there was a ban, it would
actually make production of any form of decent wine impossible
rather than just a price increase?
Mr Goodband: If there was a ban on chaptalization?
Q169 Viscount Brookeborough:
Yes; if there was a ban on it, it would become unfeasible?
Mr Goodband: For some producers that would be
so.
Q170 Viscount Brookeborough:
Therefore the costing is not really an issue?
Mr Goodband: The costing is an issue in the
sense, as I understand it (correct me if I am wrong), that if
the growers are forced to use rectified concentrated must, the
cost would undoubtedly be higher.
Q171 Viscount Brookeborough:
That would be their only way out?
Mr Goodband: Yes.
Q172 Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer:
Could I check one other issue, which is what would be the effect,
if there were a radical reform of the regime in Europe, on the
ability of the independent wine sector to purchase as opposed
to the very large supermarket wine buying power?
Mr McGrath: No impact at all, it is neutral,
because they would probably have a broader range of higher quality
producers. Clearly the major impact from the social point of view
is going to be on a lot of small growers round Europe who just
do not have the ability or the nous to adapt to the market. Being
slightly practical, as much as we would all love to go for the
major reform, there will be a lot of social issues for small growers
who have had two or three hectares for a hundred years, fifty
years, who simply will not be able to adapt, but, ultimately,
they have to adapt, because if they do not adapt they are not
going to be in business anyway because nobody wants their wine.
Q173 Chairman:
If I can give you the opportunity, are there points you think
we ought to be aware of that have not been covered in the questions
that you would like to inform us of?
Mr Corbet-Milward: The only additional point
that I would make is on the social aspects side—that at
a European level we are keen to get an article into the CMO on
social aspects to tie in with, and make life easier for, people
who are trying to be responsible in selling wines to people who
perhaps need to be educated into purchasing those wines and how
they consume it.
Q174 Chairman:
Can I finish with one question. We have mentioned "pragmatic"
and "consensus" and all of these words. It sounds awfully
like the reform for the House of Lords. Maybe it has a better
chance than that! You are in touch with similar organisations
in Europe. To what extent do you think the broad approach that
you have taken this morning would be supported by your colleagues
throughout the rest of Europe?
Mr Corbet-Milward: To answer your question directly,
I believe that, in so far as the trading communities are concerned,
they are fully supportive. In so far as the small grower is concerned,
not at all. They do not want to change. They have a nice lifestyle,
they can pull in subsidy and they will not want to change. That
is the nature of people living on the land very often.
Q175 Chairman:
This is not unfamiliar to us. Thank you very much indeed. It has
been very helpful, very interesting and very enjoyable as well.
Mr Corbet-Milward: Thank you very much for inviting
us along, Chairman.
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