Examination of Witnesses (Questions 340-359)
Senior District Judge Timothy Workman
23 MAY 2007
Q340 Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Would
it be fair to say that some countries are more strict about these
matters, perhaps, than others?
District Judge Workman: I do not think I can
answer that with any confidence, but I suspect you are right.
Q341 Chairman: We are talking about
not the European Arrest Warrant here but the supervision order,
and in a sense it is going to serve the nationals of this country
if in fact the scheme worked to bring people back and we do accept
what we are asked to accept?
District Judge Workman: Yes.
Q342 Lord Borrie: I was a little
puzzled earlier when you, Judge, in answer to questions from Lord
Mance suggested that there would not be any need for particular
approaches to authorities or courts in other countries in either
direction. I think you said that when you were exercising jurisdiction
here in London under the European Arrest Warrant you did not find
the need to make inquiries abroad on the general matter of whether
any of the conditions, which you later specified to Lord Lucas,
should be imposed. I take it that it is your understanding that
because everything is to depend on mutual trust then whether it
is a court like yours with the same jurisdiction in Latvia or
France, or wherever in the European Union, mutual trust requires
that if it is a British resident in one of those countries who
is perhaps to be returned here there is no need for those courts
to get in touch with the British authorities, or the other way
round, in most cases. I am rather surprised at that because I
thought—and I therefore ask you to develop the point—that
there would be quite a lot of occasions where contact was needed,
not only for the human rights reasons outlined by Lord Lester
of Herne Hill but even just on the basic practicalities of what
conditions of residence or reporting to police stations would
be appropriate, conditions of employment, perhaps, and so on and
so forth. Surely there is a need for some contact between the
judge making the decision to return someone and on what conditions?
Surely there would be very often a need for cooperation between
the judge and the authorities in the other country to which the
individual is to be returned?
District Judge Workman: Yes, you are quite right
about the contact between the court and the authorities because
clearly if the court imposes a condition to report to the police,
the police have got to be aware that that condition has been imposed
and so the court will notify the police station.
Q343 Chairman: That is a domestic
court and the domestic police.
District Judge Workman: But it would have to
be done from the Paris court to the local police station in England.
We need to devise some method of dealing with that, because there
is no easy way of doing it, but it should not really, I feel,
need a reference to the court in England to do that.
Q344 Lord Borrie: That is where I
was a bit surprised.
District Judge Workman: If one thinks of an
ordinary domestic case where you are actually imposing conditions,
the condition of bail to report to the police, one does not actually
have to advise the police or ask them whether they are content
with that. One makes the order and the order is conveyed to that
police station, usually through the police officer at the court.
Then they are aware that somebody is required there between 4.00
pm and 6.00 pm on Fridays, whatever it may be. That information
has obviously got to be conveyed to the police station from whichever
court actually makes this order, but on the basis of mutual trust
and understanding about this I assume that the court in France
has the same authority to be able to tell the police, "Here
is a man coming to you. He is to report to you," on whatever
day is specified.
Q345 Lord Clinton-Davis: I speak
from a position of appalling inexperience in this situation, but
in the domestic courts the suspect does have a right of audience,
does he not? He can say what he likes through his representative
or himself?
District Judge Workman: Yes.
Q346 Lord Clinton-Davis: Would the
same apply as far as the situation we are considering is concerned?
District Judge Workman: I am afraid I cannot
speak for the various other jurisdictions as to how they deal
with their bail applications, but I am assuming that human rights
principles apply and that he would be entitled to be heard and,
if necessary, represented.
Q347 Lord Mance: That was the point
we picked up at previous hearings, that it is not made specific
and indeed all that is said is that a supervision order may be
made by the issuing authority after having informed the suspect
of his obligations. It does not refer to his right to be heard.
But one can assume, I think, that what you have said is required
by the Convention. Just going back to the previous points you
were making, I think there may be a misconception here in your
suggestion that the issuing court, say in Ruritania, would get
in touch with the British police. The procedure, as I understand
it, is for the issuing court to make an order—whether with
or without consultation we have been discussing—and then
for it to be transmitted to the executing authority here. That
would mean in our book, I think, a British court, and a British
court would then decide whether or not to recognise it and would
have, I think, rather limited grounds for not recognising it.
It may be that the question you were raising about how far there
needs to be consultation at the original making rather depends
on how far it is open to the executing court to actually modify
the order, but again we are told (and it seems correct) that the
intention of the language, Article 6, paragraph 4, is to only
allow very limited modifications by the executing court. There
is a procedure for review, but that has to be done by the issuing
state.
District Judge Workman: Yes. I could not see
what I would do if I was presented with this order of the foreign
court. I could not alter it, except in very extreme circumstances,
and I do not see on what basis I could refuse if it was within
the sort of conditions I have suggested. I think there are some
more obscure conditions which might be imposed, which might cause
us some concern.
Q348 Chairman: Article 6(2) does
in terms require agreement between the two authorities, that is
you as the executing authority on the scenario we have been positing,
and the issuing state. Just assume, because it could happen if
this comes into being, that you are faced in your own court with
a Polish chap who is accused of rape here and wants to go back
to Warsaw on bail. You, therefore, as the issuing authority, have
got to consider what conditions you would require to be imposed
on him. You would, under 6(2), surely have to secure the agreement
of the Polish authority? He would have to have his say on whether
any of these conditions were too burdensome and all the rest of
it. How would you set it up?
District Judge Workman: I think I would deal
with it as a straightforward bail application under English procedure.
He would provide such information as he could to persuade me that
bail would be granted. Whether I would or not is another matter,
but assuming I would, then I would look to see what conditions
are appropriate and I feel that if they are the conditions which
I mentioned earlier they are the sorts of conditions which I would
be looking to—security, his address, residence and curfew
at his home—which I do not think require any other court
to look at it and endorse them.
Q349 Chairman: Have we not been told
by somebody that some states for constitutional reasons do not
allow the surrender of passports, for example?
District Judge Workman: If there are conditions
which are not acceptable to all the states then clearly that condition
cannot be one of those.
Q350 Chairman: I just do not know
whether there are facilities for the taking of security, which
is, what, from sureties or from your own recognisance? Various
possibilities exist in our jurisdiction, but whether they exist
in Latvia I simply do not know.
District Judge Workman: I saw that there was
a suggestion from the Law Society that perhaps it ought to be
explored to see what conditions there are.
Q351 Chairman: You would subscribe
to that?
District Judge Workman: I would certainly support
that, yes.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Would that not also
apply to medical treatment?
Q352 Chairman: I am sure it would.
District Judge Workman: I must say medical treatment
is a bit of a worry really, because in my view it requires their
consent, because treatment should not really be imposed.
Lord Lester of Herne Hill: Quite.
Q353 Chairman: But you might very
well get the consent of the prospective person to be bailed but
not have the facility in his resident country to do whatever is
required. It may be psychiatric treatment.
District Judge Workman: That is right. It is
not one of the conditions that I regard as a common condition
to all countries.
Q354 Chairman: If and in so far as
there are to be tripartite hearings or even discussions between
the two Member States' respective authorities, what proportion
of courts in this country have got, for example, video-link facilities?
Your court, I imagine, has?
District Judge Workman: Yes, we do.
Q355 Chairman: But then you are one
of the great and mighty!
District Judge Workman: I would not put it that
way, but we have certainly got a video-link.
Q356 Chairman: Is that common?
District Judge Workman: It is becoming more
common and I think one could say that there would be a central
court within most areas that would have a video-link. Some of
the more country courts perhaps would not, but I do not think
that would matter because you could go to the adjoining court.
So I think that could be provided. I have to say that our experience
of video-links is that it becomes extremely difficult in terms
of interpreters. It can be managed, but it is not easy.
Q357 Chairman: Reverting to your
own experience in the European Arrest Warrant field, you have
indicated that there have been, so to speak, informal early discussions
between SOCA (Serious Organised Crime Agency), which is the executing
authority here (if that is the right term), and the issuing state
but have you yourself ever had to engage, when it has got to your
level, in any discussion?
District Judge Workman: Yes.
Q358 Chairman: I do not want chapter
and verse, obviously, but what sort of level of person do you
talk to and how is it set up?
District Judge Workman: I started by asking
the CPS to make the inquiries for me as the representative of
the issuing authority, and when that did not prove fruitful I
wrote, through the court clerk, to the judge in France about it
and eventually got a reply.
Q359 Chairman: This is where you
are executing one of their warrants?
District Judge Workman: That is right, yes.
I hope I am getting the facts right. It is a case called Vey,
which had one of the difficulties that one has with examining
magistrates as to what point the process had reached, as to whether
it was a prosecution or whether it was still an investigation.
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