Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
RT HON
GEOFFREY HOON,
MR MICHAEL
TATHAM AND
MR MARTIN
SHEARMAN
17 MAY 2007
Q20 Lord Lea of Crondall: You do
not think what I call ethnic politics is actually religious politics?
Mr Hoon: There is inevitably an element of that,
yes, and one of the issues for the Serbian minority is the preservation
of the monasteries and places of worship that are hugely sensitive
to them. On my very first visit to Kosovo I met a Serbian leader
who said to me that I needed to bear in mind that his family had
been in Kosovo for 600 years. It is not something I have ever
forgotten. The Serbian population have rights, have status, have
a future and we have to try and assist in the creation of institutions
that allow them to participate in the future of their country.
Q21 Chairman: On the education point
that was raised by Lord Lea, apart from the problem of two different
languages, which does make it rather difficult, would it still
be the case that quite a lot of the Serbian education will continue
to be financed by Belgrade?
Mr Tatham: If I may, I will answer that question
and Lord Lea's at the same time. I think that the integrated education
is a very good aspiration for the future. Right now I think that
the concern would be that that would actually unsettle the Kosovo
Serbs, because what they really want at the minute is reassurance
that they will be able to keep their Serb identity under Kosovo's
new status, and what the Ahtisaari proposals include is, in Serb
dominated municipalities, there is provision for those municipalities
to have a measure of responsibility over education, in some cases
higher education as well, and, yes, Lord Roper, there is provision
under the Ahtisaari proposals for continuing funding, continuing
links between Belgrade and these municipalities in areas such
as education and health. Obviously, those links need to be regulated
and transparent and declared, but, yes, Ahtisaari has been very
alive to the importance of keeping those links.
Q22 Lord Tomlinson: Minister, I would
like to turn to the ESDP mission. What do you think will be the
main characteristics, the objective structures and activities
of the ESDP mission currently being planned for deployment in
Kosovo? How long do you think it will take for that mission to
deploy once the Council adopts the joint action which it is proposed
will establish it?
Mr Hoon: The plan, dealing with the last point
first, is for the mission to build up during our 120-day transition
period after the Security Council Resolution is passed, assuming
that it is, and the Planning Team are making the preparations
for that already. The characteristics of the civilian ESDP mission
is concerned with rule of law—something like 60% police,
20% involved in the administration of justice, a small element
dealing with Customs issues, there will also be a crowd and riot
control policing capacity. If I can go back, it is actually pretty
consistent with what has been required in Kosovo for some long
time, because one of the things that I think was often overlooked
in the early days of the troops arriving there was that we needed
a civilian administration because most of the administration had
gone. There were some very practical problems about law enforcement.
Those problems are different now, but, nevertheless, the ambition
is to develop an independent, multi-ethnic legal system, police
and customs service that is free from political interference and
adopts the standards that we see elsewhere in Europe. It is an
important part of the transition, and building those institutions,
again, I think it vitally important to all people in Kosovo. Do
you want to add something to that? My expert is here.
Mr Shearman: No, I have very little to add to
that. The role of the mission is to support implementation of
the status settlement and, obviously, the rule of law under which
the ESDP mission is operated is crucial to providing certainty
and security for all Kosovo's inhabitants. So, this will be a
major important part of the international community effort to
ensure that the implementation of the process works well and works
smoothly.
Q23 Lord Tomlinson: Lord Chairman,
I took note of those figures: about 60% for police, 20% for rule
of law, others for the customs services. Can you give us an indication
of 60%, 20% of what? What will be the numbers?
Mr Hoon: My apologies, about 1500.
Q24 Lord Crickhowell: You have described
the mission. Are you confident that sufficient properly qualified
and trained people will be provided by the Member States and that
they will have the competence, and so on, to do their job?
Mr Hoon: It is a fair question, because we have
struggled sometimes in the past to get the right kinds of people.
I think we have actually had quite a lot of experience since those
days, in the sense that I well recall large numbers of soldiers
being there and occasionally looking for some of their civilian
skills to supplement their military ones, but we have had a lot
of experience since 1999 of finding the right kinds of administrative
legal skills. It actually affords quite an opportunity often for
younger civil servants from different countries to see some perhaps
sharper end activity than they might get back home. I think we
are rather better at it than we were in 1999.
Mr Shearman: Yes, it is a very good question.
This will be the biggest skill in the ESDP mission. The EU has
built up quite a good track record of running missions in the
policing and rule of law area. It has built up quite a good track
record on the identification of the right skills, the training
of the personnel and so on, but in quantitative terms this will
be an order above. I think we are pretty confident we will get
the numbers. We will then need to ensure, of course, or the Union
as a whole will need to ensure, that the quality is also there,
but the ground work has been done and done very well, I think,
through the development of the ESDP capacity over the last decade
or so. I understand the concern, but I think we should be cautiously
optimistic about the EU's ability to do this and do it well.
Q25 Lord Crickhowell: I have this
nice picture of your brightest young civil servants being despatched
to Kosovo. Not all of them will be language specialists. In particular,
are there going to be arrangements for language teaching, and
so on, to assist?
Mr Shearman: I think getting up to fluent Albanian
quickly could be a big challenge. There will obviously be a need
for local support, particularly on language skills and so on.
There is provision in the planning permission for local recruitment
of some skills as well, such as interpretation, I think.
Mr Hoon: I might add, the UK envisages contributing
85 civilians to this mission. The process is for Member States
to submit individual applications for consideration, and that
ensures, we hope, that each individual will have the right skills.
There is then a question about ensuring that they have the right
induction training, and that means we have completed a training
needs assessment to look at how we design that induction training
to get the right people with the right skills. So there is a quite
lot of planning gone into this already, but it is a perfectly
proper and fair question, given the history of this, to ensure
that we do get it right.
Q26 Chairman: The UK has had rather
senior people in the unmixed structure in the police and in some
of the other fields and sometimes a senior person. Will there
be senior UK personnel involved in the EU structures?
Mr Tatham: The process of making these senior
level appointments is on-going at the minute, and we are certainly
working hard to try and ensure that the UK is well represented
at all levels.
Q27 Chairman: Will there be any of
the people who have been working, as I say, policing for the OSCE
or the UN moving over to the EU if they come from EU Member States?
Mr Tatham: There will be a certain amount of
that, yes. I think there is a balance to be got here, and it is
sensible to include elements and have a certain element of continuity.
Also, I think it is important, in terms of local presentation,
that this is seen as a new operation and a new start, but, yes,
that is under consideration.
Q28 Chairman: Perhaps I could go
on from that to say (and, Minister, you have already referred
to this to some extent) that on this whole question the military
operation will continue to be a NATO operation, OSCE will have
rather reduced functions but will continue acting out those functions.
I wonder whether you feel there are going to be satisfactory arrangements.
You mentioned in this committee working under the ICR, who will
co-ordinate it. Do you feel that is likely to work or do you feel
there could be stresses?
Mr Hoon: It is obviously important that it does
work, and a great deal of thought and a lot of planning has gone
into dealing with the immediate aftermath of the consequences
of what we are discussing. Lord Lea pointed out the risks, and
there are obvious concerns. With some 17,000 troops on the ground,
it ought to be possible to deal with any threats to security and,
as I say, that has been planned for some time. Thereafter, it
is important that we maintain the co-ordination, as has been described
earlier, and I am confident that we can get that right, not least
because there have been some very significant improvements in
the way in which the military mission operates, far fewer national
reservations and a recognition that actually this is a single
force for Kosovo that has a job right across the area, and I think
that is a big improvement on where we were in 1999 and 2000.
Q29 Chairman: Some of the caveats
which existed at that time have been withdrawn, have they?
Mr Hoon: There is a much better understanding
of the nature of the responsibility, and I hope that it will not
be necessary for British troops to go out from London to deal
with problems in parts of Kosovo when there are rather a large
number of troops from other countries sitting not terribly far
away. I had to take that decision. I would prefer if my successor
does not face the same problem.
Q30 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: I apologise
for being out of the room; I had to ask a question before the
House. This may have been covered, but when the initial peace
process started in Kosovo Serbian troops were playing quite a
serious role, were they not, in policing the area? Are there still
Serbian troops in Kosovo?
Mr Tatham: No, there are no Serbian troops in
Kosovo now.
Q31 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: But there
were initially, were there not?
Mr Tatham: No, I think they withdrew in 1999.
Mr Hoon: That is part of the settlement.
Q32 Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Was it,
but there are not any there now?
Mr Tatham: You are right, Lord Hamilton, actually
that under UNSCR 1244, which was passed in 1999, there was provision
for Serb police and possibly military, I am not sure, to come
back, but in practice that part of 1244 has not been operationalised.
Mr Hoon: But I remember there was some very
useful co-ordination along the borders. Part of the point I was
making to Lord Lea earlier is that this is not simply a problem
for Kosovo, the concern we have always had is the risk of this
spilling over into other countries in that area, and there was
some really very good co-ordination with the Serbian military
in Serbian areas across the border, and that was very helpful.
Q33 Lord Lea of Crondall: Are the
Russians part of this force?
Mr Tatham: The Russians are not part of the
international military presence in Kosovo. They used to be, BUT
they withdrew—I am not sure when—a few years ago.
Q34 Lord Lea of Crondall: Under OSCE
they could, if they wanted, say, "We would like to be involved"?
Mr Tatham: I am talking about the military presence.
Russia is obviously a member of OSCE. I imagine, though I do not
know this for a fact, that there are Russian nationals included
in the OSCE presence in Kosovo.
Mr Hoon: We have not quite extended NATO that
far yet.
Q35 Chairman: We have, of course,
had Russia playing an important part in Bosnia, I thought?
Mr Hoon: Actually, despite the (how shall I
put it) surprise at their arrival at the airport in Priština
they actually played quite a positive and constructive role and
there was very good co-ordination, ultimately, between the various
forces there. It presented an interesting and extra dimension
to what we were doing.
Q36 Lord Crickhowell: We have had
a reference to past funding, and Lord Tomlinson always has the
numbers at his finger tips, which I do not. They are supported
now by the 2008 budget. There are reports that, not surprisingly,
it may be under strain from various competing pressures. Do you
have a view as to what the funding both for the mission and for
other support might be?
Mr Hoon: If I set out the details, I hope that
will be to the assistance of the Committee. The ESDP mission is
funded from the CFSP budget and the mission's running costs in
2008 are likely to be around 80 million euros. The Commission's
proposal for the 2008 CFSP budget is 200 million euros, an increase
of 41 million euros, or around 26%. We judge that that should
be sufficient, with the 44 million already committed in 2007,
for the final stages of preparation for the mission. The European
Commission plans to contribute some 50% of the funding for the
ICO, the US 25%, with the remaining 25% split between other donors,
including the United Kingdom, but the European Committees are
working on Berkel sharing arrangements for Member States based
on the OHR model. So, actually, we are reasonably confident that
that should be a sound basis financially for the operations that
we plan to conduct.
Q37 Lord Tomlinson: One small detail
on the reply. Have I understood it correctly that some of the
money that is needed will be financed from the community budget
and the other will be intergovernmental?
Mr Hoon: Yes.
Mr Shearman: Perhaps I could clarify. The funding
of the ESDP mission will come from the CFSP budget chapter of
the community budget.
Q38 Lord Tomlinson: The community
budget?
Mr Shearman: Yes.
Q39 Lord Tomlinson: And the rest
will be intergovernmental contributions?
Mr Shearman: The funding of the ICO, as I understand
it—
Mr Hoon: 50%.
Mr Shearman: ---50% will come from the Commission
but from a separate budget heading, and, of course, Member States
contributing to the ESDP mission will bear the costs of their
own staff.
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