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I specifically support Amendment No. 74, which was tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Greaves. As they say on television, it is location, location, location that matters. Even if a project is excellent, if it is proposed to be in a national park, it is obvious that the national park, as the planning authority and the guardian of that part of our countryside, needs to be properly consulted. I hope that the Minister will be in a benevolent mood, as she often is, in relation to Amendment No. 74 in particular, but if she wants to favour all the others as well, I will be happy.
Lord Reay: I support Amendment No. 72, which is tabled in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Cameron. I do not think that parish councils should be squeezed out of the consultation process. They easily could be, and a formal reminder that they have a right to be consulted would be a very good thing.
I also support Amendment No. 74, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Greaves. The Bill does not recognise that protection of the landscape should be a factor in decisions about where nationally significant infrastructure projects are sited and what sort of projects should be sited in what sort of areas. I hope that, following the debates we had last week, at the next stage there will be a reference in the Bill to landscape. This amendment would reinforce that message.
In many cases, there are plans to extend national parks, which can be pre-empted by developments that take place beyond the current frontier of the national park. That is another reason why the views of national park authorities should be sought. A national park authority is a local authority for the purposes of the Bill and it should be treated as such.
Viscount Colville of Culross: I want to add a few questions to those raised by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, about consultation. This matter has puzzled me since I started to read the Bill, and it has puzzled me all afternoon. As my noble friend Lord Cameron said, it is clear that when an application is being considered for a particular project, Chapter 2 of Part 5 provides for another set of consultations. They will be specific to the project concerned. At this stage, we are talking about the national scene, and I see that Clause 7(5) deals with policy statements where there is a specific description or site for the proposal. This applies to
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The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, gave us an example earlier of the railway line to connect London to the Channel Tunnel. A number of routes were put forward; in the end, none of them was chosen; so it came in the form of a parliamentary Bill. I have heard it said that there may be a new railway line from London to the north. If so, it would clearly go in some sort of a corridor, because that is the way that these things are done. The prospect of consultation on a corridor going from London to the border and beyond is something that concerns me considerably. What are the people consulted to be asked about? Will there be alternative routes? Will it be possible for consultees to put forward alternative routes? How is this to work?
Of course there must be consultation, but it will be very difficult for consultees to know what they are supposed to say if they do not know what the project consists of. At the moment, except for the two cases that I mentioned, I see no indication set out in the Bill of the subject matter for the consultation. If the noble Baroness could enlighten me on that, I would find it a great deal easier to understand what we are all talking about.
Lord Chorley: I shall speak principally to Amendment No. 74 to Amendment No. 65. I shall start with Amendment No. 74 in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Greaves, regarding national parks, which has been referred to by several speakers. I am delighted to support them on the amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Judd, is president of the Friends of the Lake District. I am merely one of his vice-presidents. As he said, he is a vice-president of the Council for National Parks. I am also a vice-president. I think that those are the only interests that I have to declare.
The point has been made—so I will not elaborate on it—that national parks are planning authorities in their own right and that therefore it should be axiomatic that they should be consultees on the same basis as the various local planning authorities listed under Clause 8. I should like to think that this is a question of, “Homer nodded”. Nevertheless, it is a curious fact that the Council of the Scilly Isles is a consultee but none of the eight or nine English national parks is a consultee.
It is possible that most of the proposals that will be directly relevant to national parks will have to do with wind farms. There may be road, railway or electricity grid schemes, and so on, but I suspect that wind farms will be one of the most contentious areas. I suspect that the issues will be not so much about wind farms proper but about wind farms adjacent to national parks. Therefore, it is rather important that, when we bring national parks in as consultees, the area of consultation should be wider than the specific boundary of the national park. Clause 8 (2) states:
“A local authority is within this subsection if any of the locations concerned is in the authority’s area”.
What is adjacent to the area is also important.
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Turning to Amendment No. 65, although my main concern has been to include national parks in the Clause 8 consultation process, it is equally important to say, although the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, did not emphasise it, that the other relevant agencies listed in that amendment should also be included in Clause 7. I assume, incidentally, that in including Natural England, the other important landscape categories of areas of outstanding national beauty and SSSIs would be covered in the consultation process. That is important. Time goes on and I will close on that note.
Lord Bridges:I shall speak briefly on a similar point arising from Amendment No. 62, which states:
“The Secretary of State shall provide for early public participation”,
on important matters concerning environmental questions. I shall refer to something that went wrong—it is not, I think, the fault of the current department involved in environmental matters, but it is an object lesson in how not to do it.
Soon after I retired, when I was doing some voluntary work for the National Trust, I was invited to take part in a serious discussion about the future of Stonehenge and, in particular, of the road works surrounding it. I went to one of the first conferences held in the new conference centre just over the road. It was a very serious conference addressed by experts on all aspects involved and we produced a very thorough report that was unanimously accepted by the Government of the day—although clearly public finance for some of the work that we proposed was difficult. The key to that was the future of the A303—a principal highway of the south-west that runs along the site and, in effect, poisons the whole of it. The suggestion made in our report was that serious consideration should be given to undergrounding the A303 so that it would not run on the surface at all. That was accepted in principle by the Government, although whether and when it would be built was not decided.
Three months ago, I received a postcard from the department concerned—I suppose that it was Defra—informing me: “No. Can’t do that. No money available”. If a public consultation of that kind takes place engaging a major department of state and the report is in principle accepted, it should not be thrown on the rubbish heap. Those of us who took part in those voluntary activities will not take part if such things go on.
Lord Burnett: I will not keep the Committee too long, but I ally myself with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Chorley: national parks should be consulted not only in respect of developments within them but of those developments in the vicinity of the national park, where the development will have some impact on it. I declare an interest: I am involved with Dartmoor National Park. I hope that the Minister can give us some comfort on these matters this evening.
Baroness Andrews: Noble Lords will forgive me if I feel a schizophrenic because, on the one hand, I am told that I am rather benign and, on the other, I am represented as a tyrant who just wants to bash through the Bill as fast as possible. When we come to consultation, this Committee is extremely alive to all the implications. That is why we have had such a good debate.
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I hope that noble Lords will forgive me if I go fairly swiftly through the amendments, because they cluster around several consistent issues about how serious we are about consultation: how open it will be, will the right people be consulted, will they be properly listened to and will they know that they have been listened to? Those are all the right questions.
I have said many times during the course of our three days of debate so far that, because the national policy statements are unique, because they set out to do things differently, they must do consultation differently as well. It must be a serious process. The noble Lord, Lord Bridges, has just given a fine example where consultation sounds to have been rather token. We are not in the business of having just token consultation on the national policy statements. This will be a national debate about infrastructure that will serve the purposes of our communities for many years to come, and it must be seen to be real. Strengthening public participation is important at all three key stages of the process. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, for his additional amendments to this list.
Because consultation has been thorough, noble Lords will expect me to explain why we have given such prominence to the code of practice in the Bill. I reassure them that the consultation on national policy statements will reflect the full seriousness of this. It was striking in our meeting with all the promoters and the CBI that everyone spoke about the necessary evidence that public involvement had been tangible and demonstrated the ownership of change. Local communities were critical to that. They made their voices heard and felt that they had been listened to.
A considerable number of amendments have been tabled. Amendment No. 62 would require the Secretary of State to carry out consultation on national policy statements at an early stage, when options remain open. That is precisely what we want to do. The amendment appears to be intended to implement the UK’s obligations on consultation under the Aarhus convention on public participation in decision-making. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, called for open and thorough participation and, as he knows, the convention governs access to information, public participation, and access to justice in environmental matters. It is based on the principle that sustainable development can be achieved only through the involvement of all stakeholders. The rights that it grants include the opportunity to have an “early and effective opportunity” to comment on the environmental effects of proposals. We have ratified this convention and must therefore ensure that our domestic legislation is compatible with it. We are content that the procedures set out in the Bill, and those to be established by secondary legislation under the Bill, are compatible with this very important convention.
Let me reassure noble Lords that at all three stages—at the formative, development stage of the draft NPS; at the pre-application stage when people in the local community make their views felt about how they will be affected; and during the IPC’s examination when the site and the implications are discussed in detail—the public voice will be fully heard and the public fully involved. Those basic principles accord with the principles that apply to the conduct of consultations. Under
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Amendment No. 64 would impose a minimum period of 12 weeks and minimum publicity requirements that proposals for national policy statements should be publicised in one or more national newspapers, in the London Gazette, on the Secretary of State’s website and by giving notice to Parliament. We share that interest, but we do not think that it would be appropriate to set out in the Bill detailed procedures and processes for national policy statement consultations. Let me explain why, because much of our debate this evening has focused on this. Very detailed requirements in the Bill would tie the hands of those who are conducting and participating in consultations. I know of no Act that has gone through this Parliament that has set out forms of consultation in detail, for the very reasons that consultation is local and each NPS will be different. We want to give the Secretary of State in each case the opportunity to consider how best to achieve the detailed consultation required by the Bill. I have given an assurance that that consultation will accord with the code of practice, which has been updated.
The code of practice on consultation does not set out deliberate methods, but it does require positive and proactive consultation. Government consultations often centre on written consultation over 12 weeks. That has been the standard. The code of practice encourages departments to consider the most appropriate means to gather views, but those means change constantly. Departments are increasingly using additional innovative means such as web-based consultation, discussion forums, facilitated meetings around the country, road shows, citizens’ juries and market research. We are doing things very differently, and we want the most fertile and the loudest public debate possible on national policy statements.
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National policy statements will vary significantly, reflecting the differences between different types of infrastructure. We cannot set out a one-size-fits-all approach. Consultation also needs to be proportionate and flexible so that the Secretary of State may decide what consultation and publicity is appropriate for a particular national policy statement. However, given that we all agree that these NPSs will be the key statements of the criteria that govern where infrastructure might be located, we are acutely aware that the process for enabling local voices to be heard at the national stage as well as the local stage is critical.
The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, talked about national policy statements that are not as location-specific as those on airports and nuclear power stations. Clause 5 describes the criteria that will be identified in the NPSs. In the consultation on the planned NPS on wind power, for example, people will come forward with views, experiences, information, evidence, and reactions to the criteria. Those judgments may in some cases refer to local experience, but there will be an active debate on the purpose of wind power, on the capacity that we need from it, and on all aspects of what we can gain from investment in it. I do not think for a moment that location-specific NPSs will be any more vigorously debated than the others will be.
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On Amendment No. 63, Clause 7 sets out that the provisions for consultation and publicity are subject to subsections (4) and (5), which allow for statutory consultees to be specified and require local publicity where an NPS is location-specific. The amendment would make the consultation and publicity provisions subject to the entire clause except subsection (6). This would in effect extend it to subsection (1), which simply describes what the clause does, and to subsection (3), which defines what a proposal is. The amendment would therefore have no practical effect.
I turn now to Amendment No. 65 and a whole range of issues relating to national statutory consultees. The noble Lord, Lord Chorley, made a very powerful contribution on this. The amendment would add to the Bill a requirement to consult Natural England, the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission for England, the Environment Agency and the Local Government Association, as well as equivalent organisations in Wales and Scotland where relevant. Again, we have tried to put into the Bill the capacity to list people to be prescribed without fixing the list in primary legislation, which is always too rigid to be useful.
Subsection (4) gives the Secretary of State the ability to make regulations prescribing a list of persons and descriptions of persons who must be consulted. We will consider who should be specified as statutory consultees, and will specify them in regulations in due course, but we have already confirmed that we intend to include Ministers in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in the case of national policy statements that extend to these respective areas. I reassure noble Lords that we will also take account of views that we have received in response to the consultation on the planning White Paper. We will, of course, also take account of the views of Members of this House that have been expressed this evening.
Again, there is no fixed list of people in the Bill because the bodies which it will be appropriate to consult will vary from national policy statement to national policy statement. Some will be common to all—we can imagine those; others will be relevant to particular types of infrastructure. We need to retain the flexibility to make the right choice. The clause permits the Secretary of State to designate statutory consultees by order and when necessary. As I think I have said previously, we intend major statutory environmental and heritage bodies to be represented.
Amendments Nos. 67 and 68 seek to specify more closely how consultation with a local community would work when a national policy statement refers to geographically specific parts of the country through requiring local advertising and site notices, and consultation with local authorities, including parish councils or community councils if in Wales.
Amendments Nos. 71 to 74 seek to change the list of authorities. I quite understand why Members of the Committee are making the case that they are. I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Judd for his generous words and for the extraordinary role he plays in promoting the interests of our national parks. He is one of our greatest guardians. I wish to reassure the
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Local authorities have unique knowledge and expertise in this field, which is why they have been placed in the situation that they have. The Bill recognises the important role of local authorities in understanding the nature and circumstances of the communities they represent, and therefore in advising the Secretary of State on how to consult them effectively. Departments will listen to their advice and make sure that the most appropriate methods are followed. In relation to what the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, said, this is not a metro-centric response. We believe that this is the most sound and realistic route to ensuring that local communities are consulted. But I say to all the Members of the Committee, including the noble Lords, Lord Reay and Lord Cameron, who made powerful arguments for parish councils and national park authorities, that the local authority can recommend that these bodies are consulted if it feels that that is appropriate. They are not being left out, but we are giving the prime consideration to the local authority as an elected body, which knows how to do those things most effectively.
It is also important that this role is not restricted to local planning authorities, as per Amendment No. 71. In a two-tier authority, the upper tier will be able to give important direction as to how the local area should be consulted, in particular since it will, by its nature, have a more strategic overview of the area in question.
Amendment No. 69 would require the Secretary of State to have regard to the responses to consultation and publicity in deciding whether to proceed with a proposal “with or without modifications”. I do not think that that adds anything to the Bill. Clause 7(6) already requires the Secretary of State to have regard to responses to consultation in deciding whether to proceed with the proposal. Any definition would include deciding whether to proceed with the NPS, with or without modifications.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, spoke very powerfully on provisions for publicity suitable for people with disabilities. His Amendments Nos. 66 and 84 would require that specific provision was made for people with disabilities where a national policy statement was local-specific and insert a new clause requiring the Secretary of State to draw up NPSs with the objective of contributing to the achievement of an environment accessible to disabled people. He knows that we completely support that ambition. It is vital that all parts of the public and the community should be able to participate and make their voices heard as to how an NPS would affect them, bringing their own experience, intelligence and foresight to the debate.
The particular requirements of people with disabilities are addressed through the provisions in disability discrimination legislation. The development of national policy statements would be subject to this legislation, so it is not necessary to put the detailed provisions in
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Amendment No. 70 would require the Secretary of State to give reasons for designating a national policy statement, including reasons for not following representations made. Clause 5(6) says that a national policy statement must give reasons for the policy set out in the statement. It is normal practice, as set out in the code of practice on consultation, for the Government to respond to consultation by summarising the responses received and explaining how they have influenced the proposals. I think that this will meet the purpose of the amendment.
On Amendment No. 65A in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Colwyn, I am afraid that I cannot add anything to what I said in the Housing and Regeneration Bill. I made a very full statement about the consultation we have had with the Health Protection Agency, the referral to SAGE and so on. Ministers have always said that they are currently considering the need for practical precautionary measures for the reasons, which he knows well, to reduce exposure to ELF EMF. We expect to set out our response to SAGE later this year. As soon as we do, I will make sure that the noble Lord is informed, certainly as regards the interests of the people on whose behalf he has been speaking this evening.
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