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I am sorry to have spoken for so long. There was a long list of amendments. I may not have done justice to them all, but I hope that I have done sufficient to enable the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Judd: I thank my noble friend for her generous remarks. Her very full response is characteristic of her commitment to taking us all on board. While the argument about democratically elected bodies being in the Bill is strong—a part of me of course responds to that—we do have a problem. The Government give specific responsibility to the park authorities to have the powers of planning for the area for which they are responsible. It may be that local authorities in the area of the national parks do not see things quite in the same way as the people who have been given the authority for doing the planning in that area. There is a gap. How does one get a full, thorough and proper consultation if the people who have been given the responsibility are not enabled, as of right, to put their arguments before those who are drawing up the national plans?
Baroness Andrews: I hear what my noble friend says. As I say, it will be open to the local authority certainly to consult the national park. But he makes a powerful case.
Lord Greaves: I am always astonished at the noble Baroness’s ability to find good reasons for opposing what I think are unassailable arguments, and for doing so in great detail and with great commitment. But I do not think that she has given any good arguments as to
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Baroness Andrews: I am always happy to think about the highly innovative solutions that the noble Lord has to most problems. I shall certainly read Hansard carefully tomorrow.
Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville: I shall be extremely brief. I did not speak on any of the amendments earlier, but, in a funny way, the Bill was a consultation on the process that we are going through. The Minister said that district councils have the ability to consult parish councils. Sutton Mandeville parish council is extremely active. When we were visited by a lady from the county council, after we had had the debate on the unitary authority in this House in which the noble Baroness and I took part, it was clear that no one on the parish council and no one attending the parish meeting on that occasion had been given any briefing at all either by the county council or by the parish council on the implications. It so happened that our particular district council was quite different in its make-up and behaviour from any of the other councils, so we were joining a body that was in fact quite different from us. No one in the parish had any idea of that happening until it was a done deed.
7 pm
Lord Burnett: I want to say one more word about national parks. I chaired the Dartmoor National Park public consultation for the emerging local plan. It was done extremely well by the officials and members of the national park. It was a conscientious consultation that took place in the park itself and, in my view, was an exemplary public exercise.
Earl Cathcart: I shall be brief. When I introduced this group of amendments I said that I hoped it would provoke discussion, and I believe it has. We have had a good debate and generally there has been support from all sides of the Committee, and certainly Members want to know more about how the consultation will work and how the publicity surrounding it will be handled. The Minister has given a very full response, but I have to say that I found it to be rather like a curate’s egg, good in parts but with other bits that were not so good. It was so full that the best thing at
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Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 63 to 70 not moved.]
Clause 8 [Consultation on publicity requirements]:
[Amendments Nos. 71 to 74 not moved.]
Clause 9 [Parliamentary requirements]:
Lord Dixon-Smith moved Amendment No. 75:
The noble Lord said: I have Amendments Nos. 75 and 77 in this group, but Amendment No. 77 will have no relevance unless Amendment No. 75 is passed. It would remove some unnecessary subsections if Amendment No. 75 were agreed. I have said time and again in discussing this Bill that the big decisions are political decisions, and that they must be taken by politicians. We are dealing with the question of how national policy statements are finally approved. If we go down the route of the Bill, which suggests that this should be done by the Secretary of State, we shall run straight into the courts, and there are plenty of people lining up to do just that. However, if we bring the final decision to Parliament itself, that possibly fatal flaw is removed. It is fatal because it will introduce a system of delay which we can do nothing about. We can do many things with the time we give ourselves here in Parliament to discuss items of business and come to a conclusion, but we cannot limit in any way the time that the courts might choose to take. As other Members of the Committee have acknowledged elsewhere, we need to recognise that these amendments are in the interests of trying to speed up the process.
My noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding has Amendment No. 78 in this group which sets out the process in greater detail and with more care than we have put into drafting ours. Our amendment is designed to open the subject, but I would go so far as to suggest that my noble friend has provided the solution. However, that is for him to explain in a few moments. I beg to move.
Lord Jenkin of Roding: I am grateful to my noble friend for his trailer, if I may so describe it, because I think that the amendment I have tabled in this group is one of the most important that we shall discuss during the Committee stage of this Bill. Those who attended the Second Reading debate will recall that I made the point at col. 1178 that the whole process should have the “credibility and authority” of an affirmative vote in both Houses. The noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh—I am sorry that he is not able to be in his place this evening—in his Second Reading speech used what I thought was a telling phrase when he referred to the “moral legitimacy” that national policy statements would otherwise lack. Indeed, he went on to say:
“It would make them much more difficult to challenge by special interest groups, and even those who oppose the plan
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That is what this amendment is mainly all about. The noble Lord, Lord Mogg, with whom I was discussing the matter earlier today, gave his warm support to this proposition, as did a number of other noble Lords, while the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, when we were discussing the Infrastructure Planning Commission on the first day in Committee, said:
“If one wants to close an apparent democratic deficit one should look to the way in which the NPS is handled in Parliament, rather than turning the IPC into an advisory body”.—[Official Report, 6/10/08; col. 20.]
Amendment No. 78 seeks to enshrine this in the Bill. It requires affirmative votes in Parliament instead of it just having a consultative role, and it should involve both Houses. The same points are made in Amendments Nos. 82 and 83, which no doubt noble Lords will wish to speak to. Amendment No. 78 goes on to provide that if there is no approval, formal recommendations could be made by what I suggest should be a Joint Committee. Here I make one point: the actual details of parliamentary committees are really not for Parliament itself but for discussion through the usual channels. I quite understand that—the same problem arose, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, will recall, on the statistics Bill. If no formal recommendations are made, the Government may table revised proposals unless both Houses reject the recommendations. That is the shape I am suggesting we might establish in this Bill.
Parliamentary procedures and conventions have developed over the centuries and there is a whole range of ways in which Parliament can be asked to handle government proposals. Clearly the main means of doing this is for the Government to produce a Bill which goes through its stages in both Houses, is amendable at almost all stages and then becomes law with Royal Assent. That is not an appropriate procedure for a national planning statement. At the opposite end there are statutory provisions which simply require the Government to lay a proposal before Parliament with no subsequent procedure laid down. That might be appropriate for a report with recommendations but, again, it would be wholly inappropriate in this case. In between the extremes of legislation on the one hand and merely tabling a proposal on the other is a range of statutory instruments—negative, affirmative and so-called super-affirmative procedures. These become law. Yes, they are debated and, if necessary, can be voted on in both Houses, but there are no amendments and we have become accustomed, in almost every case, to having them confined to one-off, short debates lasting little more than an hour.
A quite different approach involves Select Committees. There you can have wide inquiries, sometimes on proposals put up by the Government’s pre-legislative committees. I was privileged to serve on such a committee on the human fertilisation and, as it was then, the human tissues draft Bills. These are wide inquiries which can hear evidence and make reports containing recommendations, but they do not become part of the
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Those are the existing procedures—I hope I have covered the main ones—but what do the Government propose here? They propose the publication of the statement, the consultation of Parliament, the entitlement of Parliament to propose amendments and, in the House of Commons only, under Clause 9 there are certain parliamentary requirements. It envisages a resolution of either House or, again, a committee of the House of Commons which can make recommendations. But, rather like the Select Committee reports, the only duty on the Government is to respond. The proposal in the Bill is that the establishing of a national policy statement remains entirely with the Secretary of State to decide on its form and content; it remains, to use the phrase of the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, a “ministerial diktat”. Moreover, it applies only to another place to make recommendations, and even then Ministers are under no obligation to follow them.
I do not regard this as an acceptable or appropriate way of handling these hugely important policy statements. It is essential that they must have the positive approval of Parliament before they can be applied by the Infrastructure Planning Commission. I see no reason why both Houses should not be fully involved in this process; after all, our roles are, in many ways, complementary. It is quite right that local and constituency interests should be of primary concern to Members of Parliament—who, of course, are also concerned about the national implications—but Members of this House, while always respecting the constituency interests of Members of another place, can sometimes bring a wider application of the law to bear on matters of national interest.
7.15 pm
At the end of Second Reading the Minister explained why she does not accept this. She said:
“However, requiring parliamentary approval of national policy statements, rather than ministerial accountability for them, would create an entirely different proposition and take us into unknown country”.—[Official Report, 15/7/08; col. 1236.]
I find that rather a strange statement. She then went on to quote her honourable friend—the right honourable John Healey, as he now is—who said in another place:
“Given that the policy statements are policy documents, they are closer to planning policy statements ... which are not subject to parliamentary approval, than to legislation. I do not see a ready-made model or suitable precedent for a binding vote on such statements of policy. Unlike with legislation, we could be taken”—
this has been echoed by the noble Baroness—
- “into unprecedented and problematic territory if the two Houses were to take a different view of the policy that might be contained in a national policy statement”.—[Official Report, Commons, 2/6/08; col. 574.]
On the question of what would happen if the two Houses disagree, this House—particularly following the report of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham of Felling—has always recognised the supremacy of another place. We have asked that we should be entitled to have our say and our vote and then, if another place disagrees, we gracefully yield to it. That statement by
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But is this taking the matter into unknown territory? That is a very strange proposition. One example of where this has happened in the past relates to two sections in the Constitutional Reform Act 2005—not so very long ago—legislation brought forward by the present Administration. It contains a provision which gives a power to the Lord Chancellor to issue guidance to the Judicial Appointments Committee as to its procedures for the selection of judges. Section 66 states:
“Before issuing any guidance the Lord Chancellor must ... consult the Lord Chief Justice”,
- “lay a draft of the proposed guidance before each House of Parliament ... If the draft is approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament within the 40-day period the Lord Chancellor must issue the guidance in the form of the draft”.
First, that applies to both Houses, not only to the House of Commons; secondly, it requires affirmative approval; and, thirdly, it is not a statutory instrument by any stretch of the imagination—it is a policy proposal put forward by the Government. It is an example of a government proposal being voted on by both Houses of Parliament. If the proposal is thought to be of sufficient importance—clearly that one was and I argue that this one is—it should require the approval of both Houses.
These national policy statements will be hugely important proposals. The planning policy statements already have the force of law, as the noble Baroness made clear in one of our debates. She said that,
- “planning policy statements are not optional; they are the law”.—[Official Report, 8/10/08; col. 266.]
This should apply even more firmly to the national policy statements, which are largely intended to take the place of the planning policy statements. As such, Parliament should have a positive, affirmative vote in each House.
Lord Cameron of Dillington: Clause 9 is at the heart of the Bill—or at least those parts of it that seek to speed up infrastructure projects. The national policy statements really make it work and allow the IPC to proceed to do its business with due democratic authority. It is right that national policy statements should be decided at national parliamentary level, which, as I said earlier, is a new development for our planning system. We must ensure that we utilise the full voice and expertise of Parliament as a whole.
I know that this is not the time or the place to debate the future make-up or role of this House—that has been done ad nauseam and will probably continue to be done at other times—but in that debate it has always seemed to me that the one question that cannot be asked enough is how we ensure that we continue to have a House of experts, as we have in this House, not only inputting into the legislative process but contributing in a variety of different spheres and ways to the future well-being of our nation.
National policy statements are a prime example of where real, experienced expertise will be imperative, whether we are talking about nuclear power stations, ordinary power stations, highways, airports, railways,
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I do not think that a Joint Committee of both Houses quite achieves what I am looking for in this clause. It is, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, up to this House how it handles these numerous NPSs and their rolling reviews. If Amendment No. 80 is successful, I suggest that a simple scrutiny committee, with the power to co-opt the necessary expertise from within the House, will suffice. The committee should have the power to make the necessary recommendations to, and enter into negotiations with, the Secretary of State and eventually either release the NPS from scrutiny, or otherwise. The key question is what happens when we come to “otherwise” and there is a deadlock between the Secretary of State and the scrutiny committee. Bearing in mind my inexperience when it comes to parliamentary procedures, I would favour Amendment No. 82 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, or Amendment No. 83 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. Each House as a whole would vote on the national policy statement and have the ability to accept or reject it—always, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, has said, bearing in mind the supremacy of the other place.
Baroness Hamwee: I have been impressed by how the Government have developed the thinking and the debate on this area of the Bill. Clearly some issues remain—the fact that I have tabled four amendments in this group indicates that I would like to take some matters further. I have read the Commons Hansard and learnt what has happened behind the scenes—not just who does it but how it is done—and the Government’s thoughtfulness has impressed me, even if I do not necessarily share their conclusions.
The issues in this group fall into two distinct parts. One concerns the scrutiny of the proposed policy statement. I tabled an amendment proposing that it should be scrutinised by a Joint Committee of both Houses, in which case there would need to be discussions with the other end. Impressed though I have been, it is a pity that discussions at the other end have continued apace without, as far as I can discern, any reference back to this House.
Not to involve Members of this House is both daft and wrong. It is daft because of the expertise and the time that some Members here could devote to this matter; it is wrong because we are a part of Parliament. To get the scrutiny right is almost more important than the final vote, as it gives the opportunity for detailed consideration of very complex issues. When we come to vote on a proposed NPS, we will inevitably polarise and tend to simplify some of the arguments, because we will have one vote. I know that I am affected—some might say infected—by eight years of doing a scrutiny job, but I believe that it is important for that process to be as good as possible.
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There are issues of capacity; Parliament needs a variety of mechanisms, and this is a part of the consultation. It is not a passive process, as my noble friend said in an earlier debate. I guess that we will be told that it is a continuous and iterative process, but the sequence is important.
If there are issues of locations, one can see the enormous controversy that there could be and the possible risk of legal challenge if the consultation is not carried out correctly. Any committee will probably have huge numbers of representations and requests to be heard, which is why I would like to see Members of this House involved.
On the final vote, I cannot imagine explaining to the many millions of people who are concerned about the development of Heathrow that this House has no role in shaping the final formal policy statement. It seems completely counterintuitive. I understand the concerns that the Minister will have about not setting the two Houses against each other, which is why getting the scrutiny right is particularly important. However, we cannot forget about the politics, because the NPSs are political statements. The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is absolutely right to direct us to the final approval.
Lord Berkeley: I have a couple of amendments in this group. The variety of ideas in the group and the contributions tonight indicate a lot of concern about how this will work. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, that the Government have done a great job in getting this far with an extremely tricky issue. She asked how we would scrutinise and approve a national policy statement for Heathrow, or other airports, which would include a site-specific third runway. Would that mean that the whole House approved the creation of a third runway? It is an interesting question which we must debate.
The House would be well advised to scrutinise these NPSs separately. We will have to find a way of doing it, as there will be quite a lot to get through given that each sector has an NPS and they have to be updated. We will have to find a way of doing it. As suggested in my Amendment No. 82, when we scrutinise a statement we should be able to approve it or not, along with the other place.
This raises some interesting issues. I do not have a solution and I am not sure that anyone else has come up with one, but we have had a good debate about it. I would like the opportunity for a small scrutiny committee, which could co-opt Peers with particular expertise in different fields, to be able to do this, but how it would do it and how long it would take need discussing in the next week or two.
7.30 pm
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