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The Training and Development Agency for Schools is encouraging training providers to use new specialist units which include material on learning and teaching for pupils with dyslexia or who require support with speech, language and communication. The noble Baroness, Lady Warnock, is absolutely right to highlight the importance of high-quality training for all our educators. As the noble Lord, Lord Elton, is aware, although we cannot require higher education institutions to include these specialist units, we expect that, with support and encouragement, nearly all providers will be using them by the end of this year. I believe that that will meet noble Lords’ concerns about initial teacher training.
We have also developed the inclusion development programme for the serving school workforce. In addition, we have asked Sir Jim Rose, who noble Lords recently had the opportunity to meet, to make recommendations on the identification and teaching of children with dyslexia. I think that he indicated at our meeting that he was drawing the definition of dyslexia quite widely. He will report early next year. We are also preparing our action plan responding to John Bercow’s important review of speech, language and communication provision, which we plan to publish before the end of the year. We have already announced £12 million to take forward his recommendations.
The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, raised concerns about the education of young people in custody. We intend to place statutory duties on local authorities to fund and commission education in juvenile custody. That will include legislation relating to those with special needs. In the mean time, we are developing training materials on dyslexia and speech, language and communication needs during 2009-10 for those responsible for the education of young people in custody.
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On the education of adults in prison, through the Learning and Skills Council we are broadening the assessment requirement for learning difficulties which is placed on offender learning and skills service providers, with effect from August 2009. As noble Lords are aware, the Learning and Skills Council is developing tools to identify additional learning needs and a training programme to support their use.
I recognise noble Lords’ concerns about the need to do more for children and young people with dyslexia or speech, language and communication needs and the need to do more for offenders with those needs. I share those concerns and the sense of urgency. I hope that I can reassure the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, that we will be looking at the evidence in developing proposals for the new Session. We are taking practical steps to improve the position and undertaking expert reviews which we will take seriously and move forward on with speed. I appreciate that this is a subject that we will return to on many occasions, and I welcome that opportunity.
Lord Ramsbotham: My Lords, when the noble Baroness is evaluating the information, will she read in particular the marvellous series of reports by Professor Karen Bryan of the University of Surrey which have been made available thanks to the generosity of the Helen Hamlyn Trust? Everything that the noble Baroness needs to know about what needs to be done, and how it needs to be done, is contained in those reports.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that very helpful suggestion. I will read the reports.
Lord Elton: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for what she said. There are within what she said hooks on which policies can be hung and, more importantly, urged forward in the months to come. Before I withdraw the amendment, I must emphasise the importance of getting to children early. My noble friend was talking about six; it is by six that the Jesuits need to get to a child to keep him for life, and I think the same can be said by the teachers of dyslexic children. That does not mean that you do not have a later screening, because some children slip through the net, and that is why the amendment provided for three screens.
We touched on the question of cost. I have introduced the idea of screening as something less than assessment, with an idea that this would make it much less expensive. It is not rocket science to identify children with real difficulties, and I am glad that the Government are moving towards every initial teacher training programme having a compulsory module on identification of SEN. I am a bit puzzled by the academic inviolability, for two reasons. First, the Government fund the whole education programme and therefore they are the customer. They buy the teachers, so they can specify what they want to be produced by the producers. Secondly, there is something called the QCA which is supposed to have a voice in all of this and which, as far as I can make out, operates almost entirely at the behest of the Government. So I think that any problem there can be swept away.
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The real anxiety is money. My noble friend—or rather the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, although he is in fact my friend—put his finger on it: where there is more than one source of funding for one activity, no funding is forthcoming, just a cat fight. I hope that the Government’s decision to put this responsibility on to local education authorities will simplify that. However, as long as prisoners are banged up because of staff shortages due to overcrowding of prisoners, they will not be let out to receive the education. Therefore, it is essential that she and her successors pursue this matter with their colleagues who control the Prison Service.
I add my thanks to those which other noble Lords who have spoken have given to the Minister for her courtesy and patience at our meeting with her. I also thank Sarah McCarthy-Fry for coming to listen to what we at this end of the Corridor are proposing so that she can understand it at the other.
It is difficult to overstate the importance of what we are talking about. Every child is born with a divine spark of enthusiasm, intelligence and energy. When that comes up against a barrier of misunderstanding, the result is frustration and the deforming of a life. We now discover that an enormous proportion of our population—some 10 per cent, and at least 53 per cent of the prison population—are victims of learning difficulties. It is on their behalf, and the behalf of those who will follow them if we do not act, that I make this plea to the Government to carry on in the faltering but welcome steps that the noble Baroness has announced. With my thanks, hopes and a promise of not letting this matter go in the next Session or the next Parliament, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford moved Amendment No. 4:
4: After Clause 80, insert the following new Clause—
“Careers education for 16 to 18 year olds
The Secretary of State shall by regulation under section 45B of the 1997 Education Act (c. 44) extend the scope of operation of sections 43, 44 and 45 of that Act to include all persons to whom Part 1 of this Act applies.”
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 7. I thank the House and the usual channels for enabling us to return to this issue. I have brought these minor amendments back after receiving satisfactory answers in the past 10 days by means of letters and discussions with the Minister and her Bill team—I thank them very much for their time—to questions that I raised on Report. I thought that it would be useful to all concerned to get their responses on to the record.
Amendment No. 4 deals with careers education. It relates to an anomaly whereby regulations already issued under Section 45B of the Education Act 1997 have extended the right to good quality careers education, advice and guidance to pupils at key stages 2 and 3 of the education system but not to 16 and 17 year-olds because they are outside the compulsory part of the system. I explicitly asked the Minister if the Government intended to extend these regulations when the learning leaving age was raised to 18. The answer that she gave
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In Amendment No. 7, on school forums, the issue is parity in head teacher and governor representation and whether we need legislation to reinforce the clear guidance already given. I received an extremely helpful letter on the issue from the Minister and am anxious that part of it should be put on the record. I beg to move.
Baroness Verma: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment No. 4. As I am sure all noble Lords will recall, on Report I called for a review of the provision of careers education in England in order to compare the service provided in England with the all-age services available in the devolved nations of the United Kingdom. We on these Benches have made it clear that we are not satisfied that the existing structure provided through Connexions is the best that could be available to young people.
Providing careers education for 16 to 18 year-olds would be an obvious complement to the other provisions in the Bill. The thrust of this Bill is to keep those very same young people in education and training. The aim, which I have said many times before is a great one, is to provide young people with the wherewithal to stand on their own two feet and to go into the world of work with sufficient, if not always ample, skills to succeed at their chosen job or career. But that may not be enough—a great many people do not know what they want to do or might be capable of doing. This seems a natural time to provide them with specialised and professional advice on their career prospects. I believe that this would only help to reach the desired outcome of the Bill.
4 pm
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment No. 7 but I very much support both amendments. As president of the National Governors’ Association, I am particularly interested to hear what the Minister will say. The NGA and the head teachers’ association have recently entered into a joint understanding of their respective responsibilities, and it would seem entirely appropriate that there should be equal representation of both bodies.
Baroness Morgan of Drefelin: My Lords, careers education is essential in helping young people to understand how their choices and learning will contribute to their future lives. It is great to have this brief debate; it gives me the opportunity, as noble Lords have requested, to put some important points on the record.
As I set out on Report, we have already put in place a substantial programme of work to improve the quality of information, advice and guidance, but we know that more needs to be done. To set out how the Government plan to improve the quality of careers advice in all settings, my department will publish a new information, advice and guidance strategy document
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In this context, the strategy will need to consider several complex issues. For example, if we extend the statutory duty to 18 year-olds in schools and FE colleges, it would also make sense to place a similar duty on other providers of post-16 education, such as work-based learning providers, training providers and youth offending institutions. However, this would raise a host of practical and legal difficulties, while again not necessarily showing clear benefits. Given the lack of hard, outcome-focused measures on careers education, it might also be difficult and expensive to enforce such a duty.
We would want to go down this path only if we were convinced that it was the only way of securing the impact that we seek for all young people. The next Bill will transfer the responsibility for securing education and training provision for 16 to 19 year-olds from the Learning and Skills Council to local authorities, as noble Lords have heard relentlessly in our discussions. This, coupled with our proposals to raise the participation age and the transfer of the Connexions Service, is a significant change. It will place local authorities firmly in the lead in ensuring that all young people can access the support and provision that they need. We would need to position any change within this new landscape.
Addressing these important questions through the new strategy will allow us to give it the consideration that it deserves and, I hope, the opportunity to have further discussions with noble Lords concerned about how comprehensive the offer is for young people as they go through transition from 16 to 18 and into adult life.
I turn to Amendment No. 7 on schools forums. As we know, the role of a schools forum member is to represent the interests of schools and children in their area and not their own school. Therefore, head teachers and governors should be viewing the discussions from a similar point of view. In addition, the schools forum is essentially a consultative body and does not, in general, make decisions itself; these are made by elected members in the local authority, having first consulted the schools forum.
The Government highly value the work of governors—I cannot stress that enough—but we are also conscious that the commitment to being on a schools forum can amount to about 10 working days per year in addition to those given to the individual school as a governor. Therefore, it places an additional time pressure on people, and many governors can find the commitment too much. Consequently, some local authorities can have difficulty filling governor vacancies.
The good practice guide will continue to state that parity of governors to head teachers on a schools forum is the aim but that the precise constitution should be left to local discretion. However, we believe that the majority of schools forums, where the constitution is known, satisfy this aim.
Furthermore, we will challenge authorities with a small number of governors on the forum and support them in filling vacancies by putting them in touch with authorities that are more successful. We know that
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The Government value the work of the National Governors’ Association and would welcome further input from it on this issue.
With that reassurance on careers and governors in relation to schools forums, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Sharp of Guildford: My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the Minister. I think we all agree about the importance of good-quality careers education backed up by information, advice and guidance. I am extremely grateful to the noble Baroness for the reassurances that she has given us on this and for the fact that the department will be working on it further and we shall be hearing about it in the Bill that comes forward in the next Session. The assurances in relation to schools forums are similarly well received. I am most grateful and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Walmsley moved Amendment No. 5:
5: After Clause 155, insert the following new Clause—
“Governing bodies of maintained schools to invite and consider pupils’ views
After section 29 of the Education Act 2002 (c. 32) insert—
“29A Governing body to invite and consider pupils’ views
(1) The governing body of a maintained school must invite the views of pupils about prescribed matters.
(2) In exercising any of their functions relating to the conduct of the school, the governing body of a maintained school must consider any relevant views of registered pupils at the school about matters prescribed under subsection (1) (whether expressed by virtue of that subsection or otherwise) and, in doing so, must have regard to the age and understanding of the pupils who expressed them.
(3) For the purposes of subsection (1), a governing body invite the views of pupils about a matter if they invite the views of—
(a) all registered pupils at the school,
(b) such of those pupils as appear to the governing body to be affected by the matter, or
(c) pupils appearing to the governing body to be representative of pupils within paragraph (a) or (b).
(4) The following are the matters that may be prescribed under subsection (1)—
(a) the exercise, or proposed exercise, of a function of the governing body of a maintained school relating to the conduct of the school;
(b) the exercise, or proposed exercise, of such a function in a particular way.
(5) In discharging their duties under subsections (1) and (2), the governing body of a maintained school must have regard to any guidance given from time to time—
(a) in relation to England, by the Secretary of State, or
(b) in relation to Wales, by the Welsh Ministers.
(6) In this section, “prescribed” means—
(a) in relation to England, prescribed by the Secretary of State;
(b) in relation to Wales, prescribed by the Welsh Ministers.
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(7) Nothing in this section affects any power or duty relating to consulting pupils which a governing body of a maintained school have otherwise than under this section.””
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 6, 10, 11, 12, 13, 15 and 16 in my name and government Amendment No. 14.
Amendment No. 5, which introduces a new clause after Clause 155, puts a clear duty on schools to invite and, crucially, to consider the views of pupils in appropriate matters, having regard to their age and understanding. The ways in which they may seek these views are broad and non-prescriptive, and the matters on which pupils will be asked for their views will be prescribed by guidance. The other amendments in the group, apart from Amendment No. 14, about which I shall say a word in a minute, are consequential or related to this key amendment.
We had two good debates at earlier stages about why it is so important and beneficial for children’s views to be considered by schools, and I will not repeat them. Since then, however, there has been a severe outbreak of agreement and good will: noble Lords will notice that the Minister has kindly added her name to mine and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, on this amendment. I thank the Minister and her team for listening so constructively to our argument that the duty on schools to listen to the voice of the child must be clearly stated in one place and not result in schools having to look at several bits of legislation to find out what they are bound to do. I also thank parliamentary counsel for assisting us in putting together this set of amendments to achieve what we have all agreed.
Noble Lords will notice that the amendment that we laid at earlier stages also included a duty on local authorities to listen to the voice of the child. The Government have managed to convince us that that is unnecessary, as it appears in other legislation, so the first thing I ask the Minister to do when she replies is to kindly explain for the record where that duty lies. Can she also confirm that, when Ofsted inspects local authorities on their children’s services, it will take into account the extent to which they seek and have regard to children’s views?
My second question is about the inevitable regulations. Our initial amendment included any function of the governing body. This amendment states that regulations will limit those functions that are affected by the duty to listen to children. We would naturally like them to include all relevant matters on which the school community would benefit from hearing from children. Can the Minister reassure me on that? Can she give me one or two examples of which functions will be included by the regulations and which will not? We do not want children consulted just on what colour to paint the walls. Can she also tell the House when these regulations will be drafted? We all hope it will be soon.
My third question is about how much notice schools will have to take of the children’s views. Other legislation, such as Section 3(5) of the Childcare Act 2006 states that the authorities “must have regard to” the wishes of the child. Similar provisions are found in Section 1(4)(a) of the Adoption and Children Act 2002
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Can the Minister say whether “consider” will have the same meaning as “must have regard to” in the other legislation?
I now come to timing. Government Amendment No. 14 is about when the various provisions of the Bill will come into force, which is outlined in Clause 170. The key amendment in this group, to which I have already spoken, is Amendment No. 5, which inserts a new clause after Clause 155; I presume it will become Section 156 of the Act, if it is passed by both Houses. I have looked at Clause 170 to see when new Clause 156 will come into force, and it seems that it will be not the day of enactment but when the Secretary of State makes an order to say that it should. That is what Clause 170(4) states. What are the Government’s intentions about this? Given all the work we have done to persuade the Government on this, the last thing I want is for the Government to delay bringing this clear duty on schools into force.
Finally, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, for being so persuasive at earlier stages of the Bill. I think she will agree with me that, as they say in football, we got a result. I beg to move.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, those of us who stressed the importance of placing listening to the voice of the child in the Bill are extremely grateful to the Government, particularly to the Minister, for supporting the well argued, detailed amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley. She is particularly to be congratulated on her persistence, and I thank her for the kind comments she made about my part. Noble Lords will, like me, wish to thank many organisations, such as Participation Works and the Children’s Rights Alliance for England, for their invaluable briefing. It is good to know that they are equally pleased with the Government’s decision, which the Minister will be pleased about.
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