House of Lords Journal 241 (Session 2007-08)

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Thursday 15 November 2007

The House met at 11.00am.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Hayman, B. (Lord Speaker)

Acton, L.
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Addington, L.
Adonis, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Berkeley, L.
Best, L.
Bew, L.
Bilimoria, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.

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Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnett, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Caithness, E.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Surbiton, B.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Cathcart, E.
Chidgey, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cotter, L.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dearing, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
D’Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elder, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ferrers, E.
Filkin, L.
Flowers, L.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Fowler, L.
Garden of Frognal, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goodhart, L.
Goodlad, L.
Goschen, V.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Grocott, L.
Hameed, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Healey, L.
Henig, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Imbert, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Ewelme, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Macaulay of Bragar, L.
McDonagh, B.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Malloch-Brown, L.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Maxton, L.
May of Oxford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Meacher, B.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Newcastle, Bp.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O’Cathain, B.
O’Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Parekh, L.
Parkinson, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peston, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.

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Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prosser, B.
Quin, B.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Ramsbotham, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees of Ludlow, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Ripon and Leeds, Bp.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowe-Beddoe, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St. Albans, Bp.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Steinberg, L.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Tebbit, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tombs, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trenchard, V.
Trimble, L.
Trumpington, B.
Truro, Bp.
Truscott, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Tyler, L.
Uddin, B.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warnock, B.
Warsi, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Windlesham, L.
Woolf, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.

Prayers were read by the Lord Bishop of Truro.

Public Business

1    Education: higher education A question was asked by Lord Dearing and answered by Lord Adonis.

2    Housing: Victorian terraces A question was asked by Baroness Gardner of Parkes and answered by Baroness Andrews.

3    Health: obesity A question was asked by the Countess of Mar and answered by Baroness Crawley.

4    Middle East: Gaza strip A question was asked by Baroness Williams of Crosby and answered by Lord Malloch-Brown.

5    Administration and Works The Chairman of Committees moved that a Select Committee be appointed to consider administrative services, accommodation and works, including works relating to security, within financial limits approved by the House Committee;

That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following members together with the Chairman of Committees be appointed to the Committee:

V Allenby of Megiddo
B Anelay of St Johns
L Campbell-Savours
B D’Souza
L Grocott
B Harris of Richmond
B McIntosh of Hudnall
B Masham of Ilton
L Naseby
L Shutt of Greetland
Bp Southwell and Nottingham
V Ullswater;

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That the Committee have leave to report from time to time.

The motion was agreed to.

6    Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform The Chairman of Committees moved that a Select Committee be appointed to report whether the provisions of any bill inappropriately delegate legislative power, or whether they subject the exercise of legislative power to an inappropriate degree of parliamentary scrutiny; to report on documents and draft orders laid before Parliament under sections 14 and 18 of the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006; and to perform, in respect of such draft orders, and in respect of subordinate provisions orders made or proposed to be made under the Regulatory Reform Act 2001, the functions performed in respect of other instruments and draft instruments by the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments;

That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following members be appointed to the Committee:

L Armstrong of Ilminster
L Boyd of Duncansby
L Brett
V Eccles
L Faulkner of Worcester
B Fritchie
B Gardner of Parkes
L Goodhart (Chairman)
L Razzall
L Shaw of Northstead;

That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers.

That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place within the United Kingdom.

The motion was agreed to.

7    Intergovernmental Organisations The Chairman of Committees moved that a Select Committee be appointed to consider how contemporary issues of international policy are addressed through United Kingdom membership of intergovernmental organisations (excluding the European Union), including their impact and effectiveness and value for money, and that, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following members be appointed to the Committee:

L Avebury
L Bowness
L Desai
B Falkner of Margravine
B Flather
L Geddes
L Hannay of Chiswick
L Howarth of Newport
L Jay of Ewelme
L Soley (Chairman)
L Steinberg
B Whitaker;

That the Committee have power to appoint specialist advisers;

That the Committee have power to adjourn from place to place;

That the Committee have leave to report from time to time;

That the Reports of the Committee shall be printed, regardless of any adjournment of the House;

That the evidence taken by the Committee shall, if the Committee so wishes, be published;

That the Committee meet on 19 November at 3.30pm.

The motion was agreed to.

8    Refreshment The Chairman of Committees moved that a Select Committee be appointed to advise on the refreshment services provided for the House, within financial limits approved by the House Committee;

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That, as proposed by the Committee of Selection, the following members together with the Chairman of Committees be appointed to the Committee:

L Brougham and Vaux
B Darcy de Knayth
L Davies of Oldham
L Geddes
L Glenarthur
B Gould of Potternewton
L Lee of Trafford
C Mar
V Montgomery of Alamein
B Pitkeathley
B Rendell of Babergh
B Thomas of Winchester;

That the Committee have leave to report from time to time.

The motion was agreed to.

9    Draft Armed Forces (Service Complaints Commissioner) Regulations 2007

Draft Armed Forces (Redress of Individual Grievances) Regulations 2007

Draft Legislative and Regulatory Reform (Regulatory Functions) Order 2007

Draft Regulators’ Compliance Code

Company and Business Names (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2007

Draft Criminal Proceedings etc. (Reform) (Scotland) Act 2007 (Powers of District and JP Courts) Order 2007

Draft Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2007

Lord Grocott, on behalf of the Lord President (Baroness Ashton of Upholland), moved that the instruments be referred to a Grand Committee en bloc. The motion was agreed to.

10    Conventional weapons (Balloted debate) Lord Elton moved for papers relating to the recent proceedings of the United Nations Conference on Certain Conventional Weapons at Geneva. After debate, the motion was withdrawn.

11    Liberal intervention (Balloted debate) Lord Soley moved for papers relating to the case for liberal intervention. After debate, the motion was withdrawn.

12    Prisoners: work A question was asked by Lord Dubs and, after debate, answered by Lord Hunt of Kings Heath.

The House adjourned at 3.53pm until Monday 19 November at 2.30pm.


All statutory instruments laid before the House are accompanied by an Explanatory Memorandum presented by command of Her Majesty, unless otherwise indicated.

Command Papers

The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty:

1    Criminal Justice—Working Together to Cut Crime and Deliver Justice: A Strategic Plan for 2008-2011.     (7247)

2    Contingent Liability—Minute from the Department of Health concerning the provision of indemnity for the independent internal inquiry into the Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust Chief Executive exit decision review.     (—)

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Affirmative Instrument

The following instrument was laid before the House for approval by resolution:
Draft European Communities (Definition of Treaties) (Agreement on Enlargement of the European Economic Area) Order 2007, laid under the European Communities Act 1972.

Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings

The following papers were laid before the House:

1    Accounts for 2006-07 of the National Army Museum, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Charities Act 1993.

2    Accounts for 2006-07 of the British Transport Police, together with the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, laid under the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003.

3    Report and Accounts for 2006-07 of the Home-Grown Cereals Authority, laid under the Cereals Marketing Act 1965.

4    Treasury Minute dated 15 November 2007, directing the application of certain amounts as Appropriations in Aid of the Estimates for 2007-08, laid under the Government Resources and Accounts Act 2000.

Judicial Business

1    Pilecki (Appellant) v Circuit Court of Legnica, Poland (Respondents) (Criminal Appeal from Her Majesty’s High Court of Justice) The appeal of Konrad Pilecki was presented and ordered to be prosecuted subject to the procedures applicable thereto.

2    KR and others (FC) (Petitioners) v Royal and Sun Alliance plc (Respondents) The petition of DEJ, GOM and JM praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee. The petitioners’ certificate of public funding was lodged.

3    HB (Ethiopia) (FC) (Appellant) v Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent) (England) The petition of the appellant praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 27 December or to the third sitting day after the next ensuing meeting of the House (the agents for the respondent consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.

4    Appeal Committee The following Order was made pursuant to the 86th Report (Session 2006-07):

Zalewska (AP) (Petitioner) v Department for Social Development (Respondents) (Northern Ireland) That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 9 January.

5    Appeal Committee The 10th Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made:

R (on the application of Trzcinska and others) (Respondents) v Secretary of State for the Home Department (Appellant) and one other action That the petition of Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants that they might be heard or otherwise intervene in the said appeal be allowed.