House of Lords Journal 241 (Session 2007-08)


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Thursday 24 April 2008

The House met at 11.00am.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Hayman, B. (Lord Speaker)

Acton, L.
Adams of Craigielea, B.
Addington, L.
Adebowale, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Ashdown of Norton-sub-
Hamdon, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Best, L.
Bew, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bhattacharyya, L.
Bilimoria, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Bingham of Cornhill, L.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blaker, L.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Boyd of Duncansby, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradley, L.
Bragg, L.
Bramall, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Browne of Belmont, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnett, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cathcart, E.
Chadlington, L.
Chelmsford, Bp.
Chester, Bp.
Chidgey, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Cotter, L.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Cuckney, L.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dear, L.
Dearing, L.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
D’Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elder, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Ferrers, E.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Flowers, L.
Fookes, B.
Ford, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Gale, B.
Garden of Frognal, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Giddens, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Grocott, L.
Hameed, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.

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Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harries of Pentregarth, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haworth, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henig, B.
Higgins, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Inge, L.
Inglewood, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jacobs, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Leach of Fairford, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Lindsay, E.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
Lyell of Markyate, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
Macaulay of Bragar, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
McKenzie of Luton, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Malloch-Brown, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marland, L.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Mawson, L.
Maxton, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Montrose, D.
Moonie, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Morrow, L.
Moser, L.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Neuberger of Abbotsbury, L.
Neville-Jones, B.
Newby, L.
Newcastle, Bp.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
O’Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Onslow, E.
Ouseley, L.
Palmer, L.
Parekh, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patel of Bradford, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peston, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prosser, B.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Ramsbotham, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Richard, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodger of Earlsferry, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Russell-Johnston, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Foscote, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Skidelsky, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tonge, B.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trimble, L.
Trumpington, B.
Truscott, L.

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Tunnicliffe, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Tyler, L.
Uddin, B.
Vadera, B.
Valentine, B.
Varley, L.
Verma, B.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Wallace of Tankerness, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warsi, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Windlesham, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.

Prayers were read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle.

Public Business

1    Crossrail Bill The petitions against the bill from Mintel International Group Limited (No. 3) and South West Regional Assembly (No.76) were withdrawn.

2    Jodrell Bank Observatory A question was asked by Lord Harrison and answered by Baroness Morgan of Drefelin.

3    International aid A question was asked by Baroness Rawlings and answered by Lord Tunnicliffe.

4    Disabled people: United Nations convention A question was asked by Lord Morris of Manchester and answered by Lord McKenzie of Luton.

5    Zimbabwe A question was asked by Baroness Northover and answered by Lord Malloch-Brown.

6    Business of the House The Lord President (Baroness Ashton of Upholland) moved that the debate on the motion in the name of Baroness Byford set down for today shall be limited to 3 hours and that in the name of Lord Colwyn to 2 hours. The motion was agreed to.

7    Post Offices (3-hour debate) Baroness Byford moved for papers relating to the role played by Post Offices in local communities and the public reaction to plans to close a portion of the network, and to the case for a review of the operations framework of the Royal Mail and post offices provided by the Post Office Act 2000. After debate, the motion was withdrawn.

8    National Health Service: dental services (2-hour debate) Lord Colwyn moved for papers relating to the current situation in the provision of National Health Service dental services in England. After debate, the motion was withdrawn.

9    Fuel supply: Grangemouth refinery Baroness Vadera repeated a ministerial statement made in the House of Commons.

10    House of Lords (Members’ Taxation Status) Bill [HL] The bill was considered in Committee. Amendment 4 to amendment 3 was disagreed to (see division list). The House resumed after amendment 5.

The House adjourned at 6.47pm until 10.00am on Friday 25 April.

Papers

All statutory instruments laid before the House are accompanied by an Explanatory Memorandum presented by command of Her Majesty, unless otherwise indicated.

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Negative Instruments

The following instruments were laid before the House:

1    Electricity and Gas (Billing) Regulations 2008, laid under the European Communities Act 1972.
     (1163)

2    National Savings Bank (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2008, laid under the National Savings Bank Act 1971.     (1164)

Judicial Business

1    Watt (formerly Carter) (sued on his own on behalf of the other members of the Labour Party) (Respondent) v Ahsan (Appellant) Further to the Order of the House of 21 November 2007 (3rd Report, Session 2007-08; [2007] UKHL 51) it was ordered that the respondent do pay or cause to be paid to the appellant his costs in this House and in Her Majesty’s Court of Appeal, the amount of such costs in this House to be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties and the amount of such costs in the courts below to be determined by a Costs Judge if not agreed between the parties.

2    Total Network SL (a company incorporated in Spain) (Original Respondents and Cross-appellants) v Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (suing as Commissioners of Customs and Excise) (Original Appellants and Cross-respondents) Further to the Order of the House of Wednesday 12 March 2008 (29th Report, Session 2007-08; [2008] UKHL 19 ) it was ordered that irrespective of the outcome of this action, Total Network SL do pay or cause to be paid the following costs to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs—

(a)    the costs of and occasioned by the preliminary issue in Her Majesty’s High Court of Justice;

(b)    the cost of the proceedings in Her Majesty’s Court of Appeal; and

(c)    the costs of the proceedings in this House

the amount of such costs in this House to be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties and the amount of such costs in the courts below to be determined by a Costs Judge if not agreed between the parties; and that such costs are to be paid within 14 days of taxation or agreement.

3    Appeal Committee The 61st Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Order was made:

In re B (children) (FC) That the petition of Cafcass that they might be heard or otherwise intervene in the said appeal be allowed.

Division

House of Lords (Members’ Taxation Status) Bill [HL]

Lord Howard of Rising moved amendment 4, as an amendment to amendment 3, in line 4, to leave out from “Crown” to end of line 5. The Committee divided:

Contents24
Not-Contents52

Contents

Astor, V. [Teller]
Caithness, E.
De Mauley, L.
Elton, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Howard of Rising, L.
Laird, L.
Leach of Fairford, L.
Luke, L.
Mancroft, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Naseby, L.
Noakes, B.

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Norton of Louth, L.
O’Cathain, B.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L. [Teller]
Wilcox, B.

Not Contents

Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Barker, B.
Bew, L.
Bilston, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Chidgey, L.
Craigavon, V.
D’Souza, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Dubs, L.
Dykes, L.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Glasgow, E.
Goodhart, L.
Hoyle, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lipsey, L.
Low of Dalston, L.
McNally, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Maxton, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Neuberger, B.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
O’Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. [Teller]
Pitkeathley, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Taverne, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Tordoff, L.
Valentine, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.