House of Lords Journal 241 (Session 2007-08)


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Monday 24 November 2008

The House met at 2.30pm.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Hayman, B. (Lord Speaker)

Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashcroft, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Best, L.
Bhatia, L.
Bilimoria, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Birt, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Blood, B.
Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bottomley of Nettlestone, B.
Bowness, L.
Boyd of Duncansby, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradley, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Broers, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnett, L.
Burns, L.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carey of Clifton, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle, Bp.
Carter of Barnes, L.
Carter of Coles, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chandos, V.
Chester, Bp.
Chichester, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Cotter, L.
Courtown, E.
Coussins, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Cunningham of Felling, L.
Darzi of Denham, L.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
De Mauley, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dear, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donoughue, L.
D’Souza, B.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eatwell, L.
Eccles, V.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Emerton, B.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Exeter, Bp.
Falkender, B.
Falkland, V.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Flowers, L.
Ford, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Foulkes of Cumnock, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Garden of Frognal, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Gavron, L.
Geddes, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenarthur, L.
Golding, B.
Goodhart, L.
Goodlad, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Gregson, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L.
Hameed, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Harries of Pentregarth, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Haworth, L.
Healey, L.
Henig, B.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooper, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.

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Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hylton, L.
Imbert, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jacobs, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Ewelme, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones, L.
Jones of Birmingham, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kirkhill, L.
Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L.
Laird, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Leitch, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Levy, L.
Lincoln, Bp.
Lipsey, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Malloch-Brown, L.
Mancroft, L.
Manningham-Buller, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mawhinney, L.
Mawson, L.
Maxton, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Moonie, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Moser, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murphy, B.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Neville-Jones, B.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O’Cathain, B.
O’Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Onslow, E.
Ouseley, L.
Oxburgh, L.
Paisley of St George’s, B.
Palmer, L.
Pannick, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patel of Bradford, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plumb, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prashar, B.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quin, B.
Quinton, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsbotham, L.
Rana, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosser, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheikh, L.
Sheldon, L.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Finsbury, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Triesman, L.
Trimble, L.
Trumpington, B.
Truscott, L.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Tyler, L.
Uddin, B.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wall of New Barnet, B.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.

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Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warsi, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Waverley, V.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
West of Spithead, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Winchester, Bp.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.
Young of Norwood Green, L.

Prayers were read by the Lord Bishop of Winchester.

Private Business

1    Northern Bank Bill The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the Promoters do not intend to proceed further with the bill.

2    London Local Authorities Bill [HL] A message was brought from the Commons that they concur with the resolution of this House of 17 November.

Public Business

3    Schools: disability equality A question was asked by Baroness Howe of Idlicote and answered by Baroness Morgan of Drefelin.

4    Afghanistan A question was asked by Lord Morris of Aberavon and answered by Lord Malloch-Brown.

5    Carbon emissions A question was asked by Lord Lawson of Blaby and answered by Lord Davies of Oldham.

6    Climate change: research funding A question was asked by Lord Tyler and answered by Lord Davies of Oldham.

7    Counter-Terrorism Bill The Commons amendments and reasons were considered.

Motion A Lords amendment 2 was not insisted on.

Motion B Lords amendments 3 and 15 were not insisted on, Commons amendments 15A to 15C in lieu of Lords amendment 15 were agreed to, and Commons amendment 115A consequential on Lords amendment 115 was agreed to.

Motion C Lords amendments 106 and 133 were not insisted on, and amendments 106B and 133B in lieu were disagreed to (see division list).

8    Armed forces Baroness Taylor of Bolton moved that this House takes note of matters relating to Her Majesty’s armed forces and the Service Personnel Command Paper (Cm 7424). After debate, the motion was agreed to.

9    Human rights judgments (JCHR Report) The Grand Committee reported that it had considered the Report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights on Monitoring the Government’s Response to Human Rights Judgments: Annual Report 2008 (31st Report, HL Paper 173).

10    Air travel and health (Science and Technology Report) The Grand Committee reported that it had considered the Report of the Science and Technology Committee on Air Travel and Health: an Update (First Report, HL Paper 7).

The House adjourned at 6.49pm until 2.30pm on Tuesday 25 November.

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Grand Committee Business

The Grand Committee met in the Moses Room at 3.30pm.

Human rights judgments (JCHR Report) Lord Lester of Herne Hill moved that the Grand Committee do consider the Report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights on Monitoring the Government’s Response to Human Rights Judgments: Annual Report 2008 (31st Report, HL Paper 173). After debate, the motion was agreed to.

Air travel and health (Science and Technology Report) Lord Sutherland of Houndwood moved that the Grand Committee do consider the Report of the Science and Technology Committee on Air Travel and Health: an Update (First Report, HL Paper 7). After debate, the motion was agreed to.

The Committee adjourned at 6.31pm.

Papers

All statutory instruments laid before the House are accompanied by an Explanatory Memorandum presented by command of Her Majesty, unless otherwise indicated.

Command Paper

The following paper was presented to the House by command of Her Majesty:

Budget—Pre-Budget Report November 2008: Facing global challenges: Supporting people through difficult times.     (7484)

Statutory Instruments (Standing Order 71)

The following negative instruments, having been laid before the House on 21 November, were ordered to lie on the Table.

1    Education (Special Educational Needs Co-ordinators) (England) Regulations 2008, laid under the Education Act 1996.     (2945)

2    Charges for Residues Surveillance (Amendment) Regulations 2008, laid under the Food Safety Act 1990.     (2999)

3    (1)    Companies (Company Records) Regulations 2008     (3006)

      (2)    Companies (Fees for Inspection of Company Records) Regulations 2008     (3007)

laid under the Companies Act 2006.

Affirmative Instruments

The following instruments were laid before the House for approval by resolution:

1    Draft Registrar of Companies and Applications for Striking Off Regulations 2008, laid under the Companies Act 2006.

2    Draft European Parliamentary Elections (Amendment) Regulations 2009, laid under the Representation of the People Act 1983.

3    (1)    Draft Gambling Act 2005 (Gaming Machines in Bingo Premises) Order 2008

      (2)    Draft Gambling Act 2005 (Variation of Monetary Limit) Order 2008

laid under the Gambling Act 2005.

4    Draft Child Benefit (Rates) (Amendment) Regulations 2008, laid under the Social Security Contributions and Benefits Act 1992.

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Negative Instruments

The following instruments were laid before the House:

1    Local Government Pension Scheme (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2008, laid under the Superannuation Act 1972.     (2989)

2    Excise Duties (Road Fuel Gas) (Reliefs) (Revocation) Regulations 2008, laid under the Hydrocarbon Oil Duties Act 1979.     (3019)

3    Victims of Mentally Disordered Offenders Information (Northern Ireland) Scheme 2008, laid under the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002.     (SR457)

4    (1)    Statute made by the Governing Body of the University of Oxford on 22 April 2008 on the Foster Memorial Fund     (—)

      (2)    Statute made by the Governing Body of the University of Oxford on 22 April 2008 on the Gibbs Prizes Board of Management     (—)

      (3)    Statute made by New College, Oxford on 13 February 2008     (—)

laid under the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge Act 1923.

Paper not subject to parliamentary proceedings

The following paper was laid before the House:

Report and Accounts for the period 2 January to 31 March 2008 of the Independent Safeguarding Authority, laid under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006.

Judicial Business

1    In re McE (Appellant) (Northern Ireland)

2    In re C (AP) and another (AP) (Appellants) (Northern Ireland)

3    In re M (Appellant) (Northern Ireland)

The petition of the Law Society of Northern Ireland praying for leave to intervene in the said appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee.

4    Mpofu (AP) (Appellant) v Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent) (Scotland) The petition of the appellant praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 8 January (the agents for the respondent consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.

5    Appeal Committee The 124th Report from the Appeal Committee was agreed to and the following Orders were made:

Zakowski (Petitioner) v Regional Court in Szczecin, Poland (Respondents) That leave to appeal be refused.

R v Anwoir and others (Petitioners) That leave to appeal be refused.

AS (Sri Lanka) (FC) (Petitioner) v Secretary of State for the Home Department (Respondent) That leave to appeal be refused; that the costs of the be taxed in accordance with the Access to Justice Act 1999; that the be at liberty to apply for costs in accordance with direction 5.1(c); and if the application is granted, that the amount thereof be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.

Secretary of State for Justice (Respondent) v Walker and another (Petitioner) That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 8 December.

R v Forozan and another (Petitioners) That leave to appeal be refused.

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R v Islam (Respondent) That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 8 December.

Division

Counter-Terrorism Bill

Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer moved Motion C1 as an amendment to Motion C in the name of Lord West of Spithead. The House divided:

Contents124*
Not-Contents143*

Contents

Addington, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Barker, B.
Best, L.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnett, L.
Butler-Sloss, B.
Caithness, E.
Cameron of Dillington, L.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cotter, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Dundee, E.
Dykes, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Emerton, B.
Erroll, E.
Exeter, Bp.
Falkner of Margravine, B.
Fearn, L.
Garden of Frognal, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glasgow, E.
Glenarthur, L.
Goodhart, L.
Hamilton of Epsom, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
James of Blackheath, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jones of Cheltenham, L.
Jopling, L.
Laird, L.
Lee of Trafford, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mawson, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monson, L.
Montgomery of Alamein, V.
Morris of Bolton, B.
Moynihan, L.
Naseby, L.
Neuberger, B.
Neville-Jones, B.
Northover, B.
O’Cathain, B.
Paisley of St George’s, B.
Palmer, L.
Pannick, L.
Patten, L.
Plumb, L.
Ramsbotham, L.
Rawlings, B.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Roberts of Llandudno, L.
Roper, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shephard of Northwold, B.
Shrewsbury, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Holbeach, L.
Teverson, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomas of Winchester, B.
Tope, L.
Tyler, L.
Ullswater, V.
Verma, B.
Waddington, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.

Not Contents

Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Anderson of Swansea, L.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L. [Teller]
Bilimoria, L.
Billingham, B.
Bilston, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Blood, B.
Borrie, L.
Boyd of Duncansby, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Bridges, L.
Broers, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter of Barnes, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Darzi of Denham, L.

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Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Dear, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Elystan-Morgan, L.
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Ford, B.
Foster of Bishop Auckland, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Griffiths of Burry Port, L.
Grocott, L.
Harries of Pentregarth, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hart of Chilton, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Haworth, L.
Henig, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howarth of Newport, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jones of Whitchurch, B.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsmill, B.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Manningham-Buller, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Maxton, L.
Mitchell, L.
Moonie, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Drefelin, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Handsworth, L.
Morris of Yardley, B.
Moser, L.
Murphy, B.
O’Neill of Clackmannan, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel, L.
Patel of Bradford, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prashar, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quin, B.
Radice, L.
Richard, L.
Robertson of Port Ellen, L.
Rooker, L.
Rosser, L.
Rowlands, L.
Royall of Blaisdon, B.
Sawyer, L.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Snape, L.
Soley, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Bolton, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Macclesfield, L.
Thornton, B.
Tunnicliffe, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Watson of Invergowrie, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
West of Spithead, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.

*    The name of a Lord who voted in both lobbies has been removed from the voting lists.