Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1920
- 1939)
WEDNESDAY 30 JANUARY 2008
Mr Alastair Campbell
Q1920 Bishop of Manchester:
One particular area which would be of interest—and you may
come back with the same answer—is about News International
and whether or not you were aware of any lobbying that they may
have done to remove the restrictions on newspaper proprietors
being able to buy commercial television stations in the United
Kingdom.
Mr Campbell: I am not aware of that at all,
no.
Q1921 Baroness Howe of Idlicote:
I would like to go back a little bit more to the whole business
of, specifically, what kind of influence Rupert Murdoch had on
his news empire, particularly thinking of the difference between
the tabloids and the main papers. Did he lead you and Tony Blair
to believe that he had some kind of final say on how important
stories were covered by The Sun and The News of the
World? Take those two to start with.
Mr Campbell: If you read in my book the account
of the visit to the Hayman Island that Lord Fowler mentioned earlier,
it is quite instructive. Murdoch sends out signals, I think, is
how I would put it, and the people he employs pick up the signals.
I thought his evidence to you was fascinating and, I suspect,
absolutely right when he says that Sky is like it is because nobody
listens to him. He probably would prefer Sky to be a bit more
like Fox News, but Sky is what it is, and I suspect Rebekah Wade
was probably being absolutely frank and straightforward when she
said he is constantly saying we have got too much of this celebrity
rubbish in the newspaper. Since leaving the job I have spoken
at one of those Murdoch editors' conferences, with Michael Howard—we
were both speaking at this event—and it is always very,
very interesting just to watch; they are kind of looking for signals.
So I do not think he does say: "I want an editorial tomorrow
on this" but they know what his views are. Does that influence
them? I suspect it probably does. I do not see anything that much
wrong with that.
Q1922 Baroness Howe of Idlicote:
So you are really saying he has specifically chosen the right
sort of people who pick up the signals regardless?
Mr Campbell: Not necessarily. For example, Robert
Thompson, when he was editor of The Times, when I got to
know him a bit, did not strike me as a Murdoch clone in any sort
of way. I do not know the new guy terribly well but—
Q1923 Baroness Howe of Idlicote:
Perhaps rather less influence on the "heavies".
Mr Campbell: Would Rupert Murdoch allow to be
appointed as editor of one of his newspapers a CND-supporting,
anti-American, pro-high tax? No. The other thing that has happened
(and, again, I think, this came through in his evidence to you),
because the media world is now completely different to what it
was ten, 20 years ago and because it is much more global, I think
he is probably much less interested in the UK than he was. It
just does not operate in the same way. To go back to the Hayman
Island, another thing that I recorded there that I think is absolutely
right was Paul Keating, then the Australian Prime Minister, saying:
"These people completely over-estimate how important their
support is to you, but you might as well have it if you can".
I think that is about the right balance on this. Let us not pretend
it is the most important thing; it is not.
Q1924 Baroness Howe of Idlicote:
Rebekah Wade's view to us that he never, ever interfered—would
you be taking that seriously?
Mr Campbell: Did she say he never, ever interfered?
Q1925 Chairman:
I think, to be fair, what she said was that his only interest,
really, was in the amount of celebrities that appeared in The
Sun. We seem to have acquired a substantial amount of evidence,
not least from Rupert Murdoch, that he has a traditional proprietor
view and believes that he has some control over the politics of
The Sun. That, I assume, would be your view as well, otherwise
you would not have wasted all this time actually talking to The
Sun.
Mr Campbell: You have to remember, as I said
to you earlier, the point for us was getting the message through
to the public. We were trying to get through a message of change
and modernisation to the public. In opposition you need the media
to help you do that. In government you can make lots of decisions;
you can affect their living standards and their hospitals, and
it becomes a different sort of communications operation. I think
Rupert Murdoch has got a view of the world and a view of issues;
he takes a really keen interest in politics right around the globe,
and they know what he thinks about things. Sometimes I will see
things—probably less so in The Sun but sometimes
there as well—certainly in The Times and The Sunday
Times, and think: "I would not think that is where he
is", but is the general—
Q1926 Chairman:
You notice them because of that?
Mr Campbell: Probably, yes, and, also, the general
world view is pretty much, I would guess, his world view.
Q1927 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
Can I take you back to the idea about regulation and ask you if
there is anything we can do about some of the things that trouble
you and trouble lots of people about the media environment. Do
you have a view about the kind of balance between all the various
regulatory influences that are operating on the media at the moment,
including the PCC, the Competition Commission in relation to ownership,
all of that stuff, and can you see any which that can be either
strengthened or improved? Given what you said about the necessity
for people to care for any of this to change, is having a strong
regulatory environment going to make any difference? You did imply
earlier on that you thought the one we had was inadequate.
Mr Campbell: I do think it is inadequate, but
I really do not know what you would replace it with. Again, I
thought it was interesting in his evidence to you that Rupert
Murdoch talked, I think, about this chaos, and it may be that
it is a kind of anarchy "rules okay" kind of situation,
I just do not know.
Q1928 Chairman:
I think he was actually saying that, looking ahead, it is very
difficult to see what is happening. I think that is the case.
Mr Campbell: But also you have got the papers
which have changed fundamentally under pressure from the Internet
and 24-hour news, the Internet that has brought some obvious benefits
for communications and some obviously terrible things that are
in there, and I really have not got a clue how you can begin to
think about regulating that. Then, in relation to redress vis-a"-vis
specific things, I gave my views on the PCC and I would not have
a clue as to what you might replace it with. I think it is much
more about how you address the issue of standards within that
part of the media that people accept as being the conventional
mainstream media, television, radio, print and the big online
organisations. I think it is really a basic question of standards
and I think that is where this cultural question that within the
media where, as I say, the phrase itself has almost become meaningless,
but within what people define as the media, there has been just
a kind of acceptance that, "Our standards have gone down,
but so what?" In all those organisations, until they have
that discussion and they have that change, and it has been fascinating
reading all the stuff you have been doing, but I am at a loss,
to be frank, as to how you might conclude it.
Q1929 Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall:
Just very, very specifically in relation to what you were just
saying about Rupert Murdoch, The Sun, what Rebekah Wade
told us about his apparent anxiety about the amount of celebrity
coverage in The Sun, all of that goes to your point about
the trivialisation of content, the fact that a story about Jordan
will dominate a story about Kenya, say, is that what you mean
by standards and, if it is, how much is it about what proprietors
are prepared to do to maintain those standards and how much is
it actually to do with external regulation?
Mr Campbell: It is partly what I mean by `standards',
but I think what I mean by `standards' is the very old-fashioned
notion that there are certain processes that journalists go through
before they commit to print and to broadcast. The speed with which
they are now expected to deliver news and views means that those
processes have gone. We used to get this in briefings, and it
is a very difficult thing to do, this, because you would be sitting
there in a briefing and, because they are all sitting there with
their mobile phones and their Blackberries or whatever, if something
really major happened out in the world, they would know about
it while I am sitting there talking about whatever I am talking
about, so you are sitting there and they say, "What's the
Prime Minister's reaction to this?" Now, they know that maybe
I can, and could on lots of things, second-guess him, but you
have then got to make an instant decision. Well, if I actually
do not give some kind of response view to this, they are straight
off, "Downing Street was thunderstruck" or, "Tony
Blair didn't know how to react" because they have got to
go out straightaway, stand outside the door and say something,
so it is that question of speed. It is the fact that news now
has become utterly mediated by people whose job is to stand there
and react, so it is a different sort of journalism and I do not
think that either the media or politics have really thought through
how that is changing, but I am not convinced and, for example,
when I read the thing about John Hutton and the thing about BSkyB
and ITV and the ownership, fine, he is no doubt following the
absolute letter of competition policy as it exists, but it looked
like something that was ten years out of date for the media world
in which we are living.
Q1930 Lord Maxton:
Yes, you are right about the Internet, but are we not now coming
to the point of what I would call `genuine self-regulation' in
terms of the media? You made a point about Prime Minister's Questions,
that it will be down on the six o'clock news, but I will not watch
the six o'clock news necessarily to get what is happening, I will
actually go on to the Internet and watch Prime Minister's Question
Time.
Mr Campbell: Well, you might, but you would
be in the minority.
Q1931 Lord Maxton:
Well, I accept I am within the minority, but it is now the access
that people have to a whole range of news organisations and other
information. If there is a press release from 10 Downing Street,
I can go to the 10 Downing Street website and look it up. I know
that is me and I am an anorak and all the rest of it, but increasingly
there has been a wider and wider range—
Mr Campbell: I agree with that, that that may
be the way that it is going, but it also means that people actually
are in a sense going to be consuming, creating their own news
consumption actually around a very narrow range, probably views
and issues.
Q1932 Lord Maxton:
But you only watch sport?
Mr Campbell: Correct.
Q1933 Chairman:
Just so that we totally understand what you are saying on the
issue of private meetings, you say the Prime Minister had private
meetings, dinner, with Rupert Murdoch—
Mr Campbell: And others.
Q1934 Chairman:
Exactly, that was the point. With all of the other proprietors,
would he equally have had dinners, I am not sure, but, say, with
Paul Dacre and his proprietor?
Mr Campbell: Well, I mentioned the dinner with
Rothermere. Yes, he would have done. I think he gave up. He certainly
gave up on them.
Q1935 Chairman:
He gave up on them?
Mr Campbell: Yes. Frankly, it was a total, absolute
and complete waste. The thing I have tried to do in my book is
actually show that politicians are no different from anybody else,
so Tony Blair would find some people's company more interesting
than others'.
Q1936 Chairman:
For the sake of completeness, did he also try to influence The
Daily Telegraph and Conrad Black?
Mr Campbell: I can remember being at a lunch
with Conrad Black and I think his charming, lovely wife was there
too, at Conrad Black's, I can remember that, yes. I vaguely remember
that we went via Lord Snowdon's where he had his photo taken.
Q1937 Chairman:
And that is the Prime Minister we are talking about, not you?
Mr Campbell: That was in opposition and that
was the two of us.
Q1938 Chairman:
And The Daily Mirror?
Mr Campbell: Yes.
Q1939 Chairman:
So literally all the proprietors, you would have wined and dined
at some stage, or the Prime Minister did?
Mr Campbell: Yes, certainly, absolutely, and,
I would imagine, Murdoch probably more than most because I suspect
the Prime Minister found him more interesting than most and also
had—
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