Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1140
- 1159)
1140. That is that one there (indicating)?
(Mr Berryman) Yes.
1141. Can we then look at the Maryland catchment
area, again based on the LATS survey, and if we start with number
15, please?[18]
(Mr Berryman) You can see the Maryland catchment
area primarily will be a walk-on catchment from this northern
part (indicating). People down here (indicating) will be much
more likely to use Stratford because it is a much more convenient
and better laid-out station, so we would expect that most of these
are people who would walk on. People who are coming from further
afield, as I say, would probably just stay on the bus and go to
Stratford.
1142. Then if we go to 18 that shows us, I hope,
the Stratford catchment?[19]
(Mr Berryman) Yes it does indeed, and there
you can see where people have originated their journey when they
are catching the train at Stratford. Some of these areas are slightly
misleading because this ward has got virtually no population.
That is the area which is being prepared for the Olympics.
1143. That is the railway lands, is it not?
(Mr Berryman) That is the railway lands, but you can see
quite a lot of people even from the Forest Gate area and Maryland
come to Stratford already, and from up this area (indicating)
where the bus routes go right past Maryland, quite a lot of people
still catch the train from Stratford.
1144. If we then look at 13—apologies
for the bizarre order, there was a reason for it once—that
ought to be the Forest Gate catchment.[20]
(Mr Berryman) That is right, it is pale blue.
1145. We can see that and then what we have
done at 17 is put them together so if we can have that, please.[21]
So this is the Stratford and Forrest Gate catchments, and what
does that tell you about the need for Maryland?
(Mr Berryman) I should say it is the catchment
for Forest Gate but not the Maryland catchment.
1146. Stratford and Forest Gate?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, so what that is doing is showing that
already most of the people within the potential catchment for
Maryland are already using other stations, and we believe that
will continue to be the case when Crossrail is complete.
1147. Finally on this topic can we put up the
photo of Stratford which we looked at yesterday with Mr West—have
you got that easily to hand—and the photo at the bottom,
can you just go through the facilities at Stratford that would
be of use to people with restricted mobility.[22]
(Mr Berryman) Clearly Stratford has been a reconstructed
station as a result of the Jubilee Line Extension. It is going
to have further reconstruction in preparation for the Olympics,
but you have got very good bus drop-off points which are easily
accessible to the station itself. This is the main entrance to
the station on a level route with no obstructions. You have got
a kiss-and-ride facility further back here (indicating) which
also has got level access to the station. You have got a taxi
drop-off point down here and also some disabled parking in this
area (indicating) as well, so it has got every possible facility
that you could think of if you were a mobility impaired person
and you wanted to use it. Can I just make a point about mobility
impairment. The overwhelming majority of people who are described
as mobility impaired are not actually in wheelchairs or disabled;
they are people with luggage and people with baby buggies and
so on and so forth. As Mr Lieven said in her introduction, I was
the project manager of the DLR Extension through Newham, which
was built as the first fully accessible railway in London, and
obviously I take a fatherly interest in how that railway has developed.
I often go there and use it and I often see people using the lifts.
I have never seen a person in a wheelchair using the lifts but
I often see people with luggage and people with baby buggies and
people of that sort using the lifts. That is very much the pattern
which has been seen on other railways. The majority of mobility
impaired passengers are actually people in those categories that
I have just described. I am not saying they are any less worthwhile
but it is just worth pointing out that it is that group of people
which is a significant user.
1148. MS LIEVEN: Can we then deal with
a few additional points that came up yesterday before we come
to our note. First of all—
1149. LORD SNAPE: Excuse me a second,
just staying with Maryland for a moment, Mr Berryman, is it the
intention that all trains will stop at all stations at all times?
There are no restricted hours planned for certain stations?
(Mr Berryman) No.
1150. LORD SNAPE: So on Crossrail all
trains stop at all stations?
(Mr Berryman) They do in the east; the arrangements in the
west are slightly different.
1151. LORD SNAPE: Just so far as the
area we are talking about now?
(Mr Berryman) In this area they do, yes.
1152. MS LIEVEN: My Lord, Lord James
asked a question yesterday about whether issues arose in relation
to local stadia.[23]
If we first locate where the stadia are and then you can talk
through the security implications. We have got Maryland Station
and Manor Park Station marked on here. West Ham, which I think
is Upton Park, is somewhat to the south and I think very close
to an underground station; is that right?
(Mr Berryman) There is Upton Park underground
station which is very close to West Ham and we know is used by
the majority of visitors to the West Ham Stadium. We are not that
far away but not particularly close. A crowd leaving West Ham
by the time it got to any of our stations would be reasonably
dispersed. I think cynical people would say there is never a crowd
at Leyton Orient, but let us assume they do rather better than
they have been doing and there is a crowd, again it is a good
way to our railway so crowds would be dispersed, and the Arsenal
Stadium is fairly remote.
1153. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: Mr Berryman,
it may be helpful to emphasise why I asked the question because
it seemed to me that West Ham particularly does get 40,000 crowds
and the Upton Park Tube Station is like the Black Hole of Calcutta
on a particularly bad night, and you simply would not use it as
a matter of choice on a happy day out, and if you were on the
losing side particularly you would not want to be there. It seems
to me that if you offer an alternative station nearby they are
likely to flood over to it as a better way of getting out of the
crush and that would be hugely antagonistic to any handicapped
people trying to use it at that time, and what provisions could
be made?
(Mr Berryman) I see what you mean. I think that is a good
general point in dealing with crowds generally.
1154. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: I would
be very worried about a wheelchair in the midst of an aggressive
losing crowd.
(Mr Berryman) I think that is something that happens as part
of life if you are in a wheelchair; you have to learn those situations
are difficult to deal with, whether you are in the station or
whether you are just going along Romford Road.
1155. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: My Lord
Chairman, I probably have been remiss in not having declared a
particular interest to this Committee.
1156. CHAIRMAN: It is beginning to become
apparent!
1157. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: It is
that I have been invited and am on the Bishop of Chelmsford's
Religious Co-ordination Committee for the Olympics which therefore
has an interest in all these areas on these particular issues.
(Mr Berryman) I think that is very relevant to Stratford
Station. I do not think the crowds from the Olympics—
1158. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: It will
be if they do not cure the radioactivity; they are all going to
shine in the dark for ever more.
(Mr Berryman) I doubt if the crowds coming from the Olympics
will be quite as partisan as West Ham United supporters.
1159. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: But there
is a huge problem on the Upton Park Station which I thought might
find a natural solution by gravitating to Maryland as a way of
getting away from the problem, and that is what was worrying me.
(Mr Berryman) I think it is more likely that some people
will use Manor Park and Forest Gate Stations and conceivably Maryland
as well. May I make a general point as well, my Lord. We have
a number of security issues on the railway of which management
of crowds after events is one. There are elements of the design
which need to take that into account. We have appointed Arup's,
a well-known firm of advisers in these matters, as our security
consultants and they are working through these and other similar
issues, particularly issues about terrorism, as we speak.
18 Crossrail Ref: P8, Maryland Station-AM Peak Access
Catchment Plot-2001 LATS Data (NEWMLB-53_04-015) Back
19
Crossrail Ref: P8, Stratford Station-AM Peak Access Catchment
Plot-2001 LATS Data (NEWMLB-53_04-018) Back
20
Crossrail Ref: P8, Forest Gate Station-AM Peak Access Catchment
Plot-2001 LATS Data (NEWMLB-53_04-013) Back
21
Crossrail Ref: P8, Stratford & Forest Gate Stations-AM Peak
Access Catchment Plot-2001 LATS Data (NEWMLB-53_04-017) Back
22
Crossrail Ref: P8, Crossrail Environmental Statement, Route Window
NE1: Stratford Station (LINEWD-ES13-007) Back
23
Crossrail Ref: P11, Location of Football Stadia relative to Stations
in LB of Newham (SCN-20080227-007) Back
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