Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1120
1120. Moving on from that a little bit, it might
also be said: "Well, you are saving a bit of money at Manor
Park over the original scheme, because you are not doing your
platform extensions, couldn't that be used at Manor Park to provide
(Mr Berryman) There is insufficientas I have just
explained the difference is between 12 million and about three-quarters
of a million.
1121. Even if it was sufficient, is that, in
your view, the right way to go about thisto save a bit
of money and then think "spend it there"?
(Mr Berryman) As Dr Maynard said yesterday, this is public
money that is involved here. Obviously, there is a finite amount
that can be found for the project. It is really a question of:
is the argument of making Manor Park accessible to wheelchair
users sufficiently strong to justify that expenditure of public
money? I think it has to be looked at in those terms.
1122. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: Could
we revert to the picture of the station and the photograph of
the platforms, please? I think it was 8. You have the freight
line on the left and we have the two platforms and the bridge
we are talking about. Is there any practicality, to avoid the
lengthy closures you have talked about, in being able to use the
freight line only as a through-platform during that platform in
order to limit the period of closure, which sounds horrendous?
(Mr Berryman) No, sir. The freight line would need to be
closed at the same time as these two tracks, simply because the
demolition of this would require things to oversail that
1123. My memory told me that it provided rather
greater space than that. Okay.
(Mr Berryman) It is quite narrow, my Lord.
1124. MS LIEVEN: Can we move on to Maryland?
1125. LORD JONES OF CHELTENHAM: Can I
just ask a question on costs? You have raised costs. Is my maths
right that to add step-free access to this station would cost
0.0075 per cent of the overall Crossrail budget?
(Mr Berryman) I am sure your maths is correct, my Lord, but
the point I am making is that the whole project is made up of
things which cost 0.0075 per cent of the cost.
1126. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Talking
about public money, will the Access for All programme, in due
course, come round to examine the non-existence of assistance
here? If so, when do you think that is likely to be? If so, what
would the likely cost then be?
(Mr Berryman) If, as I said earlier, Access for All are using
the same criteria as we are, in general terms, it would be a very
long time before they got round to doing this.
1127. But they will have to do it, will they
(Mr Berryman) Not necessarily. They do not have a complete
commitment to do it for every station. I think the current budget
is £375 million for the next five years, and we would imagine
that expenditure continuing for cycles after that.
1128. BARONESS FOOKES: Dr Maynard made
this point, did she not, yesterday?
(Mr Berryman) She did, yes. I think it would be a very long
time before this station gets done.
1129. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: But
it may get done.
(Mr Berryman) It is possible. Of course, it will cost more
but that will be in the money of the day.
1130. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: A lot
(Mr Berryman) But then everything is in the money of the
day. So you can look at it in quite that way.
1131. MS LIEVEN: Maryland, Mr Berryman.
If we could put up exhibit 4, please, just to show us where Maryland
There was a bit of a debate yesterday about whether it is 600
metres, 700 metres or 850 metres. Do you want to comment on that?
(Mr Berryman) Not really. It is not very farI
think that is the point we were making.
1132. How relevant is the absolute distance
if you focus on severely disabled people, for example?
(Mr Berryman) It is not particularly relevant, because in
the case of severely disabled people they would not get to the
station under their own steam, as I think you put it yesterday;
they would, inevitably, either use a bus or a dial-a-ride or,
in cases where they use Motability or something similar, they
would use their car and park in the disabled parking here. So
the actual distance is not all that crucial. The point is, if
you are on a bus going down here, it is about an extra two-and-a-half
minutes to get to Stratford Station.
1133. Can you give us a potted history of why
we are stopping at Maryland?
(Mr Berryman) Well, the original plan was not to stop at
Maryland, and this was because of the guidance which we originally
had from HMRI, which was that Crossrail would be treated as an
entirely new railway and, therefore, full-length platforms needed
to be provided at all stations. Subsequent discussion with them
indicated that they would be prepared to treat the existing railwaysthat
is this one and, also, the Great Western Railwayin the
way that they would treat any other existing railway, and not
as a new railway; just as a modification of an existing railway.
That brought us the option of having selective door-opening. We
did not want to stop there originally for two reasons: firstly,
because extending the platforms would be very expensive, but,
secondly, because the transport case for this is actually quite
negative. All the passengers who are passing through Maryland
(and that is the majority of them) will experience a two-minute
or so longer journey because the train stops here. So stopping
at Maryland never had a very good transport caseand still
does not. The reason that we decided to accede to Newham's request
was, first of all, we found out we did not need to do these very
extensive works for platform extensions and, secondly, we did
not want to be seen to be subverting the procedure for station
closure, which I am sure members will be well-familiar with, which
is a specific thing which would probably be inappropriate to be
dealt with through this Bill. So we did not really want to stop
there; we subsequently acceded to Newham's requests to introduce
a stop there and we have negotiated with HMRI to the point that,
subject to a satisfactory safety case being presented by the operator
in due course (that is when the operator is appointed, of course),
they have no objection to selective door opening. So that was
why it was included at that point.
1134. Can we then move on to exhibit 11?
If we were going to do PRM accessibility at Maryland (and, clearly,
it is our case that we are not and we should not have to, but
if we were going to), can you explain how it would work at Maryland?
(Mr Berryman) Yes. In terms of the actual access
from the station concourse to the platform, it is a bit easier
here because there are two staircases (in this location here and
that location there) which are disused and I think are bricked-up
or blocked-off in some way, and we would simply use the space
where those staircases were to put two lifts in. The problem here
is actually getting from the street to the concourse level. There
are about five or six steps from this point to the concourse,
and the footway here is very narrowand we will perhaps
come back to that in a second. What we would have to do is demolish
the taxi office, which sits here (I think it is a taxi office,
from memory), and build a ramp to get people from footway level
to the concourse. So the works here would cost in the order of
£4.5 million, at outturn prices.
1135. It might be worth putting up exhibit 6,
please. It is not brilliant on the screen.
(Mr Berryman) This is the area where we would
have to make the ramp from the platform up to the concourseit
would be through these two premises here. The point here is that
this is an impenetrable fence, so people being dropped off at
this station could not be dropped off very conveniently. Can we
go back to the previous slide, please?
1136. Do you mean 11, the plan?
(Mr Berryman) Yes. The bus stops for this station are somewhat
remote from the station itself. There are a couple of stops down
here and there are a couple of stops up here, but to get from
any of those stops to the station is a bit of a trek, compared
to the very satisfactory interchange which exists at Stratford.
So if someone was coming down this road on a bus, it makes no
sense at all to get off here, negotiate these very busy roadsthis
is the A11, by the way, the Leytonstone Roadto get to the
station. It would be far more sensible for a person, whether mobility
impaired or not, to stay on the bus and go to Stratford. That
is what we think most people will do, and that is why the passenger
numbers from this station now are very low.
1137. And in terms of getting to Maryland by
means other than the bus for PRM, taxi or Dial-a-Ride, is it a
good station for those kinds of drop-offs?
(Mr Berryman) It is absolutely hopeless because there is
a fence all the way along here. I cannot see how that could ever
be moved because, as I say, this is the A11, it is a very busy
road and the prospects of vehicles stopping there are very remote.
1138. While we are on this topic, is there any
disabled parking at Maryland?
(Mr Berryman) There is none.
1139. Moving on then, in terms of the number
of people predicted to use Maryland, if we go back quickly to
Exhibit 19, can you tell me how many people are predicted to use
it in the peak three hours?
(Mr Berryman) About 2,000 in total. We would
expect there to be about 1,500 borders and 500 alighters.
14 Crossrail Ref: P8, Maryland Station-Local bus services
providingdirect links to Stratford Station (NEWMLB-53_04-004) Back
Crossrail Ref: P8, Maryland Station-Proposed details for the
provision of PRM lifts (NEWMLB-53_04-011) Back
Crossrail Ref: P8, Maryland Station-View of station entrance
Crossrail Ref: P8, 2016 AM Peak 3 Hour Passenger Forecast (Excluding
internal interchange movements (NEWMLB-53_04-019) Back