Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1100
1100. LORD JONES OF CHELTENHAM: The open
spaces to the north of Manor Park, are any of those areas zoned
for development? I see there are parks and the cemetery, but there
is the bit just slightly to the left and north of Manor Park.
Is that zoned at all?
(Mr Berryman) I would imagine, bearing in mind the historical
nature of the open spaces here and so on, that it is extremely
unlikely, but I do not know.
1101. MS LIEVEN: I think that is another
cemetery, but I am going to have to revert to the tried and trusted
A-Z. I will come back to that in a moment.
1102. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: My only
concern there is that you should have been sure that whatever
you do in there has been cleared with the appropriate authorities
with a view to the redeployment of the remains, and all those
things. It would have a serious impact, cost-wise, if you suddenly
found yourself faced with that later in the process.
(Mr Berryman) Yes, my Lord. We have, I hope, learnt from
the lessons from the Channel Tunnel Rail Link on that point where
they were faced with that problem.
1103. MS LIEVEN: Just to be absolutely
clear here, because obviously the Committee is new to the project
and new to different parts, is it intended to do any excavation
of this part of the route?
(Mr Berryman) No, there is not.
1104. You referred earlier to Mr Braithwaite
and his 1840s' railway. Is our railway going within the embankments
of his original railway?
(Mr Berryman) As subsequently modified by his heirs and successors,
1105. MS LIEVEN: I am not au fait with
his heirs and successors.
1106. CHAIRMAN: Mr Berryman, while we
have that slide up, there is a patch of mauve, or pink or magenta,
right up at the top left-hand corner. Why is that part of the
(Mr Berryman) Yes, sir. That one there?
(Mr Berryman) We do not know. It is very likelythere
is a bus route that runs down here somewhere. Whether somebody
got on the bus there and went to Manor Park because it just happens
to go past his house
1108. It is not on the bus route planning we
saw just now.
(Mr Berryman) No, that is probably right. We do not know.
1109. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: I suggest
it is probably a sponsored former development by Ford Motor Company
for a cluster of workers who they were sponsoring.
(Mr Berryman) It could be any number of reasons, my Lord.
It could even be a statistical anomaly, or someone could have
filled in his origin point, his postcode, incorrectly. You just
do not know.
1110. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: You
take your figures based on one day's sample?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, my Lord. This is the London Area Travel
Survey, which forms the basis of the whole of the distribution
between the railways, the Underground and the bus services.
1111. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Do
they have projections, say, to 2010, 2017 and 2027?
(Mr Berryman) I referred earlier to the passenger modelling
that we do. Our passenger modelling is based on these kinds of
analyses. Obviously, what LATS do is actually take the record
of what has happened on a certain day and they do it every two
or three years. What we do is use that information, together with
information such as planned developments in an area, other social
trends, to estimate what the passenger numbers will be when the
1112. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: You
take into account the ageing population?
(Mr Berryman) We do, my Lord.
1113. CHAIRMAN: Mr Berryman, down at
the bottom, beside the North Circular Road, there is a fairly
large pink patch. Do those people use Manor Park and, I suppose,
have to go by bus in order to get there?
(Mr Berryman) I presume so, although, interestingly, there
is another railway that runs along here. Am I right. This is the
1114. MS LIEVEN: That is the London Underground
District Line, I think.
(Mr Berryman) So why some people would want to go from there
to there, we do not know, and there are always these kinds of
things in railway analysis. I remember doing some work on the
West Coast Mainline several years ago and we found people whose
journeys started in Wiltshire who were using the West Coast Mainline,
and we could not understand where they were going to, but no doubt
they had some complex arrangements that worked for them.
1115. LORD SNAPE: Some understanding
of buses as well, if they used the West Coast Mainline a few years
1116. MS LIEVEN: Just before we move
on, I think the A-Z has given me one answer. This area here, which
my Lord, Lord Jones, asked about, is another cemetery. That is
a cemetery and that is a much larger cemetery. Is it right, Mr
Berryman, we are not impacting on either?
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, yes.
1117. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: The one
on the right is the biggest plague cemetery in England, I think.
1118. MS LIEVEN: Just pulling those strands
together on Manor Park, and thinking about the criteria that you
referred to at the beginning, is it your judgment that it would
be sensible to provide step-free access at Manor Park?
(Mr Berryman) No, it is not, my Lords, because the matter
of the cost, the matter of the ease of access to other stations,
it just does not seem to me to be worthwhile in this case. I think
if Manor Park was further away from other stations then it might
make a difference to the equation, but because it is so close
to the others I do not really think it can be justified.
1119. Before we leave Manor Park, can we deal
with one issue which will come up on many, many Petitions, which
it is appropriate for you to give some evidence on now. It might
be said: "Well, £12 million. Crossrail is going to cost
£16 billion, so £12 million is a drop in the ocean and
if it helps people with accessibility issues around Manor Park
then it is worth doing". Could you deal with that, please?
(Mr Berryman) I think the important thing with these large
projects is to recognise that the whole project is made up of
a lot of individual elements, each of which is relatively low
in value. Most of the elements around this railway, individually,
cost a small number of millions of pounds. The problem we always
have with a large project is drawing a boundary round the project,
because people say: "It is going to cost £16 billion;
another £12 million here won't make a difference; another
couple of million here to demolish another propertythat
won't make a differenceanother improvement in parking at
this station, that won't make a difference". Of course, individually,
those numbers are very small, but you have to draw a boundary
round the project. If you do not do that we inevitably find that
the costs escalate and that is how we lose control of the overall