Select Committee on the Crossrail Bill Minutes of Evidence

Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1100 - 1119)

  1100. LORD JONES OF CHELTENHAM: The open spaces to the north of Manor Park, are any of those areas zoned for development? I see there are parks and the cemetery, but there is the bit just slightly to the left and north of Manor Park. Is that zoned at all?
  (Mr Berryman) I would imagine, bearing in mind the historical nature of the open spaces here and so on, that it is extremely unlikely, but I do not know.

  1101. MS LIEVEN: I think that is another cemetery, but I am going to have to revert to the tried and trusted A-Z. I will come back to that in a moment.

  1102. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: My only concern there is that you should have been sure that whatever you do in there has been cleared with the appropriate authorities with a view to the redeployment of the remains, and all those things. It would have a serious impact, cost-wise, if you suddenly found yourself faced with that later in the process.
  (Mr Berryman) Yes, my Lord. We have, I hope, learnt from the lessons from the Channel Tunnel Rail Link on that point where they were faced with that problem.

  1103. MS LIEVEN: Just to be absolutely clear here, because obviously the Committee is new to the project and new to different parts, is it intended to do any excavation of this part of the route?
  (Mr Berryman) No, there is not.

  1104. You referred earlier to Mr Braithwaite and his 1840s' railway. Is our railway going within the embankments of his original railway?
  (Mr Berryman) As subsequently modified by his heirs and successors, yes.

  1105. MS LIEVEN: I am not au fait with his heirs and successors.

  1106. CHAIRMAN: Mr Berryman, while we have that slide up, there is a patch of mauve, or pink or magenta, right up at the top left-hand corner. Why is that part of the catchment?
  (Mr Berryman) Yes, sir. That one there?

  1107. Yes.
  (Mr Berryman) We do not know. It is very likely—there is a bus route that runs down here somewhere. Whether somebody got on the bus there and went to Manor Park because it just happens to go past his house—

  1108. It is not on the bus route planning we saw just now.
  (Mr Berryman) No, that is probably right. We do not know.

  1109. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: I suggest it is probably a sponsored former development by Ford Motor Company for a cluster of workers who they were sponsoring.
  (Mr Berryman) It could be any number of reasons, my Lord. It could even be a statistical anomaly, or someone could have filled in his origin point, his postcode, incorrectly. You just do not know.

  1110. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: You take your figures based on one day's sample?
  (Mr Berryman) Yes, my Lord. This is the London Area Travel Survey, which forms the basis of the whole of the distribution between the railways, the Underground and the bus services.

  1111. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Do they have projections, say, to 2010, 2017 and 2027?
  (Mr Berryman) I referred earlier to the passenger modelling that we do. Our passenger modelling is based on these kinds of analyses. Obviously, what LATS do is actually take the record of what has happened on a certain day and they do it every two or three years. What we do is use that information, together with information such as planned developments in an area, other social trends, to estimate what the passenger numbers will be when the railway opens.

  1112. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: You take into account the ageing population?
  (Mr Berryman) We do, my Lord.

  1113. CHAIRMAN: Mr Berryman, down at the bottom, beside the North Circular Road, there is a fairly large pink patch. Do those people use Manor Park and, I suppose, have to go by bus in order to get there?
  (Mr Berryman) I presume so, although, interestingly, there is another railway that runs along here. Am I right. This is the London Underground.

  1114. MS LIEVEN: That is the London Underground District Line, I think.
  (Mr Berryman) So why some people would want to go from there to there, we do not know, and there are always these kinds of things in railway analysis. I remember doing some work on the West Coast Mainline several years ago and we found people whose journeys started in Wiltshire who were using the West Coast Mainline, and we could not understand where they were going to, but no doubt they had some complex arrangements that worked for them.

  1115. LORD SNAPE: Some understanding of buses as well, if they used the West Coast Mainline a few years ago!

  1116. MS LIEVEN: Just before we move on, I think the A-Z has given me one answer. This area here, which my Lord, Lord Jones, asked about, is another cemetery. That is a cemetery and that is a much larger cemetery. Is it right, Mr Berryman, we are not impacting on either?
  (Mr Berryman) That is correct, yes.

  1117. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: The one on the right is the biggest plague cemetery in England, I think.

  1118. MS LIEVEN: Just pulling those strands together on Manor Park, and thinking about the criteria that you referred to at the beginning, is it your judgment that it would be sensible to provide step-free access at Manor Park?
  (Mr Berryman) No, it is not, my Lords, because the matter of the cost, the matter of the ease of access to other stations, it just does not seem to me to be worthwhile in this case. I think if Manor Park was further away from other stations then it might make a difference to the equation, but because it is so close to the others I do not really think it can be justified.

  1119. Before we leave Manor Park, can we deal with one issue which will come up on many, many Petitions, which it is appropriate for you to give some evidence on now. It might be said: "Well, £12 million. Crossrail is going to cost £16 billion, so £12 million is a drop in the ocean and if it helps people with accessibility issues around Manor Park then it is worth doing". Could you deal with that, please?
  (Mr Berryman) I think the important thing with these large projects is to recognise that the whole project is made up of a lot of individual elements, each of which is relatively low in value. Most of the elements around this railway, individually, cost a small number of millions of pounds. The problem we always have with a large project is drawing a boundary round the project, because people say: "It is going to cost £16 billion; another £12 million here won't make a difference; another couple of million here to demolish another property—that won't make a difference—another improvement in parking at this station, that won't make a difference". Of course, individually, those numbers are very small, but you have to draw a boundary round the project. If you do not do that we inevitably find that the costs escalate and that is how we lose control of the overall budget.

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