Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1320
- 1339)
1320. Yes.
(Mr Berryman) There is not a goods lift.
1321. There was going to be a replacement goods
loop provided.
(Mr Berryman) Goods loop?
1322. What did you think I said, just out of
interest, Mr Berryman?
(Mr Berryman) Sorry, I thought you said "lift".
There is another goods loop to be provided at Chadwell Heath from
memory, Goodmayes to Chadwell Heath.
1323. That is the replacement goods loop and
that does not need to be done now.
(Mr Berryman) That will still be done.
1324. That is still being done, is it? I see.
Why is that now still being done when before it was as a result
of the closure of the previous loop?
(Mr Berryman) Well, certainly if this loop was closed that
would be absolutely essential. The railway could not operate without
that loop. But we now have the opportunity of keeping this loop
open because of the selective door opening and we will take that
opportunity because, as the Committee will hear in due course,
freight operators in particular are extremely anxious about the
removal of any infrastructure from the proposed scheme and they
have lobbied us quite hard to keep the loop in. In fact just this
morning because I wanted to make sure Network Rail had not changed
their mind—occasionally they do do that—I checked
with them and the position still is they are quite adamant they
want this loop if it can possibly be kept in,
1325. BARNONESS FOOKES: And the other
loop.
(Mr Berryman) And the other loop as well.
1326. MR REED: Let us be clear. First,
the other loop was there as an essential replacement of the loop
at Manor Park and now it is going to be provided in addition to
what is being kept at Manor Park; is that right, Mr Berryman?
(Mr Berryman) It is absolutely right, yes. You are getting
into some very complex areas about train planning and operational
flexibility and resilience which perhaps this is not the right
--- I can go into it if your Lordships wish.
1327. CHAIRMAN: We have got a week of
hearings on this subject later.
1328. MR REED: It is not a question I
want to investigate with Mr Berryman. I do not much mind about
the reasoning behind it. What I do want to know however is what
the additional loop is going to cost?
(Mr Berryman) It is about 12 million quid, I think.
1329. How much?
(Mr Berryman) Give me a minute to think.
1330. Did you say 12 million?
(Mr Berryman) More than that. Probably about £20 million.
I am not prepared for that question.
1331. CHAIRMAN: This is the Chadwell
Heath one?
(Mr Berryman) Yes.
1332. MS LIEVEN: On detailed points like
that, I think it might be better if we provided a note and checked
the figures. Obviously it is a massive project and there are huge
numbers of bits of it and what it costs, so we will find out that
figure and inform the Committee.
1333. MR REED: Let us assume it is 20
million—and we will see if it does come up like that—what
is that as a proportion of the total cost of the Crossrail project?
Maybe you can do that off the top of your head.
(Mr Berryman) It is a very small proportion. I am sure Lord
Jones would be able to tell you the proportion.
1334. But nevertheless one you were willing
to make given the circumstances—and I do not want to delve
into it—and I think you talk about longevity and operational
matters; is that right.
(Mr Berryman) Yes, "willing to make" is perhaps
stating it the wrong way round. It is something that we would
be reluctant not to do because of the important impact on operational
resilience and the ability to actually run the train service.
If we cannot run the train service that we plan to run, there
is absolutely no point in making the investment in the railway
at all and it becomes nugatory, so it is very important that we
get consent from the Rail Regulator and other competent authorities
to run the train services that we want to run. In this case, this
very much strengthens that case.
1335. CHAIRMAN: Mr Reed, I am so sorry
but what is it that you are driving at because at the present
moment I do not think any of us is clear. What is it that you
want to achieve?
1336. MR REED: My Lord, what I want to
achieve is lift upgrades at Manor Park and Maryland, but the reason
I investigate the question of the loop is firstly to understand
the extent to which Crossrail was willing to alter its plans and
spend more money in a particular regard elsewhere. That is to
meet the point, if you recall, that was being made that in the
context of the total costs of Crossrail, whilst it might be a
very small proportion to upgrade, nevertheless Crossrail's budget
is made up of those little small proportions.
1337. CHAIRMAN: Mr Reed, I do not think
we are ever as a Select Committee going to come to a conclusion
on this until we have heard from the freight rail people and probably
Railtrack and so on later on, because how important this is in
relation to your wider platform is going to be part of a much
bigger picture.
1338. MR REED: My Lord, yes. The second
point is this—and I was going to make it by way of submission
but I will deal with it now because your Lordship asks—is
that first the additional loop was a requirement brought about
by the proposed works in this location but the question then arises
should credit be given for the costs that are capable of being
saved by no longer having that particular requirement in place.
1339. CHAIRMAN: I think you are going
to have to take this fairly briefly because I do not think we
are going to come to any sort of judgment on it until we have
heard more about the freight rail situation.
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