Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1580
- 1599)
1580. So there is no doubt that that will be
the law by the time Crossrail—
(Mr Holladay) That is on all new vehicles,
but then again you have to make sure that the old vehicles are
up to standard, do you not?
1581. Then my notes say that 4, 5, 6, 7 and
8 were all rejected by the ODA.
(Mr Holladay) I would not know exactly
on that one.
1582. Then item 9, identification of vehicles,
they did accept that, wherever it was practicable to do so.
(Mr Holladay) Yes.
1583. MS LIEVEN: I will ask Mr Berryman
to comment on to what we can do in respect of construction vehicles
when he gives evidence, if that is acceptable.
1584. CHAIRMAN: But I think not until
ten to 12.
The witness withdrew After
a short break
1585. CHAIRMAN: Ms Lieven, I think one
of the things most helpful for us and, I am sure, for the CTC
would be if you could explore with Mr Berryman to what extent
you may be able to meet the points that they have been making
this morning. I appreciate that you probably cannot meet all of
them, but the extent to which you can would be very helpful.
1586. MS LIEVEN: Yes, and, my Lord, in
order to expedite matters, I might lead Mr Berryman a little bit,
but hopefully your Lordships will not mind and, if you or Mr Peck
feel I am going beyond a line, I will of course stop.
1587. CHAIRMAN: I thought I noticed that
Mr Peck might have been doing something a bit similar this morning!
1588. MS LIEVEN: Well, he might have
been, my Lord, but, to be fair to Mr Peck, as he explained fairly,
he is not a barrister.
MR KEITH
BERRYMAN, recalled Examined
by MS LIEVEN
1589. MS LIEVEN: Mr Berryman, we obviously
do not need to go through your CV again, but could you just explain
for the Petitioner's benefit what your position with Crossrail
is?
(Mr Berryman) I am
the Managing Director of Cross London Rail Links which is a joint-venture
company between Transport for London and the Department for Transport
established to promote this scheme.
1590. Now, so far as making provision on Crossrail
for the carriage of cycles on trains is concerned, can you just
explain the position on that?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, it might be a good moment just to explain
what the rolling stock is likely to look like on Crossrail. Crossrail
is a very high-intensity service with a lot of passengers, particularly
in the central section, and a frequent service, so it needs to
be able to unload and load quickly, so it will be a train with
lots of doors and not many seats. The actual layout inside the
trains is not decided yet, but there will be space, as we mentioned
yesterday, to be occupied by wheelchair-users, for large luggage,
prams and the like, and that could also be used by cyclists. Indeed,
the lobbies in the doors will be very substantial and they can
also be used by cyclists, so there will be plenty of room for
cyclists during the off-peak. Obviously, during the peak, we expect
the trains to be very crowded. As far as the lifts are concerned
from the deep-level stations, as was heard yesterday, they are
substantially 16-person lifts on all the deep-level underground
stations, so they are comfortably big enough for bicycles to go
up and down. Therefore, there is no barrier in the construction
which is proposed for Crossrail which would prevent bicycles being
carried.
1591. CHAIRMAN: Except when there are
not any lifts.
(Mr Berryman) Actually I think bicyclists tend to carry their
bicycles up and down staircases where there is not a lift.
1592. MS LIEVEN: In terms of carriage
on the trains, first of all, just explain to us who will decide
the policy as to at what time cycles can go on trains and in what
sections.
(Mr Berryman) Well, the policy will be decided by the franchising
authority. Under the current arrangements being worked out between
the Department and Transport for London, that is likely to be
Transport for London and the train operating company which is
the successful bidder for that franchise.
1593. At what point is that likely to be decided?
(Mr Berryman) That will not be for some time yet. The appointment
of the TOC would probably take place a couple of years before
the railway opens and it is very unlikely that it would be done
before then.
1594. In terms of the likely policy, I think
the carriage of cycles in peak periods is not really an issue,
and I think the CTC understand that that may well not be acceptable,
but I just wanted to look at the off-peak times. Surface sections,
I think we anticipate that it is likely that bicycles will be
able to be carried on surface sections off-peak. Is that right?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, I think it is very unlikely that either
the franchising authority or the TOC would have any problem with
that and we would expect that to be the case.
1595. On the sub-surface sections, which is
what I have described as the `central tunnel sections', can you
just explain to the Committee what the problems are with committing
now to taking cycles on those sections?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, the issue really is to do with London
Underground Limited and the connection that we have with their
network. As I think was explained by the Cyclists' Touring Club
witness, bicycles are not allowed on the Tube-style trains, the
small-diameter trains, and he explained why that was, but there
are a number of other issues as well. The platform space on those
stations is very limited, there is the potential for bicycles
to be ridden on the platform, though I am sure no responsible
cyclist would do that, but some people do it, and there are conflicts
between ordinary passengers and cyclists with the limited space,
so London Underground have a very strong presumption that bicycles
should not be carried on their Tube network. They can be carried
on the sub-surface network, the large trains, like the District
Line and the Metropolitan Line, but not on the Tube trains, and
I think the witness explained that already. The problem with Crossrail
is that there is no barrier between our deep-level stations and
London Underground stations, so, once a bicycle is in the system,
the Underground are frightened that that would enable a bicycle
to be taken on to their system where bicycles are not allowed.
Now, of course that may change before the railway is built. Cycling
policy is something that is developing all the time. I think there
is a greater appreciation of the value of cycling now than perhaps
was previously the case, so we do not actually know what the position
will be in 2017, but, if things stay as they are, the working
assumption will be that cycles would not be allowed on the deep-level
trains.
1596. If we were to unilaterally impose a policy
at this stage on Crossrail that said bicycles would go through
the central section, how difficult would that make life for LUL
in their deep-level tubes?
(Mr Berryman) I think they would consider
that to be a very serious problem for them. The reluctance to
carry bicycles on the deep-level tube is a very longstanding policy
with them and, as things stand today, they would be reluctant
to change that. Whether that can be varied over time, whether
we can come to some satisfactory arrangement to make sure that
people do not take their bicycles from one side of the station
to the other, I am not sure at this stage, but certainly that
would be the current position.
1597. Just to make it absolutely clear, if one
was going to interchange between Crossrail at Tottenham Court
Road and the Northern Line at Tottenham Court Road, if someone
could bring a bicycle from Crossrail into the deep section of
Tottenham Court Road is there any way, other than having lots
and lots of staff standing at corners, to stop people just taking
their bike on to the Northern Line?
(Mr Berryman) No, there is nothing, nor
on to the Central Line.
1598. No, I just used the Northern Line as an
example, but it is true of all the deep-level tunnels?
(Mr Berryman) It is indeed.
1599. MS LIEVEN: We have heard various
examples of elsewhere but the only one I want to ask you about
at this stage is Liverpool and the Merseyrail system.
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