Examination of Witnesses (Questions 3500
- 3519)
3500. MR WHEELER: But you explained to
the Committee earlier on this morning that you had not done any
extra work on those Phase 3 surveys between the original publication
in 2004.
(Mr Berryman) I do not recall saying that. I certainly do
not recall saying that.
3501. Well, I have made a note of it. Could
I ask it in another way, what work has been done to those reports
since 2004?
(Mr Berryman) I think further inspections were carried out
after the Committee made those remarks and, as a result of that,
you mentioned some of the buildings had been internally examined.
This happened when our engineers were walking around making notes
about the buildings, the owners came out and said, "Would
you like to come inside and have a look", and that is how
that was arranged, so that certainly happened at that time.
3502. Have the results of those inspections
been added to the surveys, because in your submission in response
to our Petition the surveys have not been altered since 2004?
(Mr Berryman) I do not think anything particularly striking
was revealed as a result of that further inspection.
3503. But you are claiming to have made a series
of internal inspections.
(Mr Berryman) No, we have not made formally internal inspections,
we have made a couple of internal inspections where the owners
have invited us in but that is all we have done, apart from the
three that you mentioned this morning, the public house.
3504. MR WHEELER: What is the procedure
here? Were you just standing out in the street and they spotted
you or—
(Mr Berryman) Yes, that is literally what happened.
3505. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: With
your camera!
(Mr Berryman) It was not me personally, my Lord, it was a
member of our team, no doubt standing over the clipboard and writing
on it and taking photographs and the like.
3506. MR WHEELER: I think I might come
back to that when I can get my head around it. The next question,
a list of building owners understand very well the meaning of
listed building legislation, that it is generally there to protect
the buildings from unsympathetic owners. In this instance it is
of some assurance that it might protect the buildings from other
unsympathetic parties and the significant engineering projects,
such as Crossrail, so it is very concerning to hear that, while
the owners remain banned by this listed building legislation,
the Promoter is not. Can you confirm what parts of the listed
building legislation are—I think the expression is—disapplied
under this act? What protection do we have under listed building
legislation that we assume we still have but we now learn we do
not have?
(Mr Berryman) Generally speaking, the protection under this
piece of legislation will be similar in effect, although not perhaps
in detail, to that which exists under statute. One thing I should
put your mind at rest on, your refer to `unsympathetic'. Just
for the avoidance of doubt, I would like to confirm that my view
of these buildings is of a very fine collection of Georgian buildings,
which is part of our national heritage and I would no more think
of damaging than I would of damaging St Paul's Cathedral. I think
it is rather unfortunate that you have taken that view.
3507. MR WHEELER: It was not a personal
comment, so apologies if you found it offensive. I think what
I mean is that essentially, in the question, the owners are bound
by this legislation and we are concerned that the project is not,
and that does not give a very happy message to owners of listed
buildings, so I do not quite understand from your answer what
elements of that protective legislation do not apply to your project
that will apply to—
3508. CHAIRMAN: Mr Mould, I think it
may be that you will have to help on this, it is a matter of law.
3509. MR MOULD: Yes.
3510. BARONESS FOOKES: I thought it had
been explained this morning that there were precautions built
in but they operated rather differently.
(Mr Berryman) That is correct, my Lady.
3511. MR MOULD: This was the point I
went through in some detail just after the short adjournment this
afternoon.
3512. CHAIRMAN: I do not think it is
a question that Mr Berryman can answer, it is a matter for the
lawyers.
3513. MR MOULD: I am not going to repeat
what I said.
3514. CHAIRMAN: No, you can read it in
the transcript.
3515. MR WHEELER: You make much of Alan
Baxter's credentials. Could you confirm the extent to which he
was involved in the production of these reports?
(Mr Berryman) His firm produced them all.
3516. Alan Baxter is the expert whose credentials
you have been talking about.
(Mr Berryman) I take it Alan Baxter, in common with any other
consulting engineer, takes that responsibility for the behaviour
and reports of his stuff. Although I have no personal knowledge
of exactly how he has monitored it, I am confident he has monitored
it and in my discussion with him on this topic he has demonstrated
that he has a thorough understanding of the reports that his staff
have prepared.
3517. So he has been involved in the process?
(Mr Berryman) He certainly has.
3518. I am not casting any aspersions on Alan
Baxter or his office, it is just you have made a lot of big play
of his expertise, which we entirely acknowledge, and I was reassured
that he has been involved in the project, not least because he
knows quite a few of the residents very well and they would probably
ask him himself.
(Mr Berryman) Indeed they will and I believe many of them
already have done.
3519. There seems to be some confusion over
the assessment scores. We have illustrated how they vary depending
on whether an internal inspection has been made or not, but what
is the relevance and how do they guide your choice of what surveys
you carry out next?
(Mr Berryman) I think the score falls into two parts, does
it not? It falls into the assessment of the settlement impacts
and the sensitivity of the structure and, possibly in the case
of the disused synagogue, the general dilapidation of the building
was the factor which Alan Baxter took into account when they moved
that building up one category. It is a building at risk, as I
think you remarked earlier. At this stage the decision whether
or not to do internal surveys will be based on any special circumstances
such as that. We would not generally be doing internal surveys
at this stage. We did do the three that you asked us to do. As
I say, we have fortuitously done some others as well, but that
is not really part of our process at this stage.
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