Examination of Witnesses (Questions 7200
7200. Just taking that particular issue, when
we look at your exhibit 49, which is the slightly surprising conclusion
that because you get on the train at Belvedere rather than Abbey
Wood your population has suddenly gone up from 1.1 million to
4 million, which is a surprising conclusion, that is because you
have based it on the figure of waiting for 15 minutes additional
So you have pushed 2.9 million people out of the 45-minute catchment
area for the City and the West End. You have taken 15 minutes,
have you not?
(Mr Donovan) Those were not my tables.
7201. You have taken the absolutely worst case
of the person who is travelling out of London in the evening and
who has to wait for the maximum amount of time.
(Mr Donovan) Yes. Also, of course, part
of the whole regeneration we are looking at is to develop opportunities
in Bexley where we would be wanting people to come in the other
direction. All that you have described is about, shall we say,
the more traditional movement, morning peak into London and evening
peak coming out of London, but of course people wanting to access
jobs in Bexley in the morning peak will have, whatever the figures,
a significantly longer wait to catch a train going eastwards.
7202. You have placed a great deal of emphasis
in your regeneration evidence (and I am certainly not going to
go into it in detail) on job creation in Ebbsfleet, in particular,
and the potential for regeneration around Ebbsfleet.
(Mr Donovan) Yes.
7203. Can I put up our exhibit 3, please, because
there is one part of the transport infrastructure improvement
to Ebbsfleet which you have not mentioned at all?48
That is, that it is right, is it not, that it is not just proposed,
it is going to happen from December 2009, that there is going
to be a high-speed domestic service from Ebbsfleet straight into
St Pancras, which will take 15 minutes from Ebbsfleet into St
Pancras, on the CTRL, high-speed line.
(Mr Donovan) Yes, for the domestic services
to the east of Ebbsfleet.
7204. For the domestic services east of Ebbsfleet
but going westit is obviously not on this plan because
it is nothing to do with Crossrailstopping at Stratford
and then going straight on to St Pancras.
(Mr Donovan) Yes.
7205. You have made no reference to that infrastructure
improvement in your evidence whatsoever, have you?
(Mr Donovan) No, because it is not relevant.
Not to Bexley, because those trains are only going to be coming
in from further east of Ebbsfleet, so you are going to have to
travel outwards from Bexley to stop at the station there and then
7206. Can I just understand that? Bexley's concern
is not with the jobs and people of Ebbsfleet because they fall
outside Bexley. Is that right? I rather thought from your evidence
that you were talking about regeneration generally.
(Mr Donovan) We are obviously not suggesting
that people in Ebbsfleet will not get a highly improved accessibility
to London, including to the stations east of Ebbsfleet once the
ability comes on to put domestic services along the Channel Tunnel
7207. As far as the Committee are concerned
about the regeneration benefits around Ebbsfleet itself, they
can draw considerable comfort from the fact that by the end of
next year there will be a 15-minute service direct from Ebbsfleet
into King's Cross St Pancras which will be available to anybody
currently using the Ebbsfleet service.
(Mr Donovan) Anybody able to get into
Ebbsfleet will be able to use that.
7208. For people in the intermediate stations,
between Ebbsfleet and Abbey Wood, they will have the choice, if
they want to do it, of travelling east to Ebbsfleet and getting
on to the CTRL domestic into St Pancras.
(Mr Donovan) They would have that option.
We do not know about the pricing structure of that, but that would
7209. They will have that option.
(Mr Donovan) Yes.
7210. MS LIEVEN: Thank you. The other
infrastructure upgrade which I do not think you have mentioned,
although again that may be because it falls outside the boundaries
of Bexley (and I am afraid I have not got the date but it is very
soonwithin the next 12 months) is that there will be a
DLR service from Woolwich Arsenal going under the river up to
the Isle of Dogs.
7211. We talked about accessibility from Ebbsfleet
direct into St Pancras (and I do not need to go through the London
Underground map as to where you can get to from St Pancras), but
in terms of people, say, in Slade Green or Belvedere who want
to access jobs in Canary Wharf and the Isle of Dogs, they will
have the additional potential from, I think, later this year to
go to Woolwich Arsenal and then make a direct connection on to
the DLR and go up to Canary Wharf and the Isle of Dogs.
(Mr Donovan) Yes.
7212. Just finally, when we look at your accessibility
map, if we look at 50, in terms of the employment areas which
are accessible to people from Belvedere, or indeed from further
east down to Ebbsfleet, within 45 minutes, it is appropriate to
take into account those two major and fully committed transport
improvements, is it not?49
(Mr Donovan) Yes. They would have some impact
on accessibility positively, yes, but of course this was about
doing comparisons through Crossrail.
7213. Just so the Committee has no doubt about
that, both of the improvements that I have talked about, they
are not just funded they are both well under progress in terms
of actually being built, are they not?
(Mr Donovan) Yes, DLR is very nearly there,
and the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, obviously, is more about how
the service configuration will be done.
7214. MS LIEVEN: The infrastructure is
there, it is just about sorting out the train services for next
year. Thank you very much, Mr Donovan.
7215. CHAIRMAN: Mr Cameron, have you
got any final questions?
7216. MR CAMERON: Thank you, my Lord;
Re-examined by MR
7217. MR CAMERON: Mr Donovan, you were
asked about Ebbsfleet and the Channel Tunnel Rail Link service
to St Pancras, and you agreed that anybody who was able to get
to Ebbsfleet would have that option. If one travels on the North
Kent line towards Ebbsfleet, is there a direct interchange with
the new Channel Tunnel Rail Link service?
(Mr Donovan) No.
7218. What happens when you get to Ebbsfleet?
(Mr Donovan) From my recollection of it you would have to
get off by train at Northfleet Station and make a link down from
there. That will link in in the future. I am not quite sure because
it is not my area, of the detail of linkage there, but basically
there is no direct link.
7219. So how do you get from Northfleet to Ebbsfleet?
(Mr Donovan) Currently probably by fast-track.
I think there are proposals that the two will be linked eventually.
46 47 Committee Ref: A35, Population & Employment
west of Belvedere (5) (BEXYLB-44_05A-049) Back
48 Crossrail Ref: P49, North Kent Lines-Proposed Service Pattern
if Crossrail is extended to Ebbsfleet (BEXYLB-44_04-003) Back
49 Committee Ref: A35, Population & Employment west of Belvedere
(6) (BEXYLB-44_05A-050) Back