Examination of Witnesses (Questions 8060
- 8079)
8060. My Lords, that is all I propose to say
by way of general opening for this week and what we propose to
do, and notify the Petitioners of and the Committee, is to call
Mr Berryman just to go through some of the very important rail
issues just to give your Lordships an overview of what the position
is in terms of general information about the running of Crossrail,
the tracks and the like. We thought that would be helpful rather
than my spouting for an hour on the subject, if that is convenient
to your Lordships.
8061. CHAIRMAN: It is probably a separate
issue, but I have read the ORR decision and, to be perfectly honest,
to the layman it is heavy going.
8062. MR ELVIN: And it is very heavy
going to the non-layman as well, as I understand! I regard myself
as sort of half-way between the two.
8063. CHAIRMAN: I do not know to what
extent we are supposed to understand the minutiae, but for the
present moment ---
8064. MR ELVIN: If I can put it briefly,
the ORR gave us sufficient access option to meet our requirements,
although it is quite clear that the ORR did not give us everything
we asked for. It is something which gives something to everyone,
it seems to me. I should say this: that the Bill amendments which,
I am instructed, will be circulated today or tomorrow are going
to be submitted with the caveat which is set out in a letter which
will go with them that, firstly, they are drafts only and, secondly,
they are on the basis that the ORR's decision is not subject to
judicial review. If there were a judicial review of the ORR's
decision, then of course we would need to reconsider what the
position would be, but the Minister's intention is very clear,
that, given a valid access option in the form in which the ORR
has issued it to date, we are content that the position is that
the rail powers should be cut back as per the Minister's statement,
but those caveats are important and I thought it necessary to
make them at this stage so that no one is under any misapprehensions.
8065. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
We certainly would be very glad to hear from Mr Berryman.
8066. MR ELVIN: Well, in that case, I
will call Mr Berryman. There should be some exhibits which should
have been circulated this morning in paper form. Mr George, who
is here, says that he may have some questions for Mr Berryman.
I have said, and we made it clear in our covering letter, that,
if it would be more convenient, since Mr George is coming on Thursday,
I am happy to recall Mr Berryman on Thursday or for questions
to be put today. I have no strong views on the matter.
8067. CHAIRMAN: I will leave it to Mr
George to ask.
8068. MR ELVIN: Very well. In that case,
I call Mr Berryman.
MR KEITH
BERRYMAN, recalled
8069. MR ELVIN: The Committee of course
are very familiar with Mr Berryman and I do not think any further
introductions are needed.
(Mr Berryman) There may be some questions that
you wish to ask as I go through this. I am happy to take questions
at any time, but there are probably some natural break points
during the presentation when it may be the best time to do it.
As Mr Elvin has said, the next two weeks or so are covering the
Petitions by the railway industry and this introduction is intended
to provide some background and, in particular, one, to describe
how Crossrail intend to operate and, two, the structure of the
railway industry which is relevant for that operation. I start
with the operation of Crossrail and the tracks that we intend
to use. On the western section, Crossrail trains will run on the
Great Western Main Line and also on the Heathrow Express line
from Airport Junction into Heathrow Airport itself. In doing so
on the Great Western Main Line, we will share track with other
trains. Between Paddington and Maidenhead or Westbourne Park,
where the tunnels emerge into the open air, and Maidenhead, Crossrail
trains will use the slow lines and they are known locally as the
`relief lines'. One of the peculiarities of the railway industry
is that seemingly identical bits of kit have different names in
different parts of the country, which is all due to history, but
they are known as the `relief lines' on the Great Western. It
is important because the fast-line services into, and out of,
Paddington to and from the West Country and south Wales do not
use these lines during normal operation; they use the fast lines,
which is one pair of lines. On the Heathrow Express line, we will
share tracks with Heathrow Express trains and we will operate
into the central area terminals, which is Terminals 1, 2 and 3
and to Terminal 4. We do not work to Terminal 5 under the current
plans. In the central section, Crossrail will use obviously the
dedicated tunnels which we are going to build, and perhaps I could
have slide 1.
8070. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: Did you say
that you do not go to Terminal 5?
(Mr Berryman) Yes, I did say that, my Lord. It is a very
complex question and it is to do with the capacity of the railway
inside Heathrow, it is to do with the need to serve all the terminals
and it is to do with BAA's and BA's commercial aspirations.
8071. So we do not serve the biggest then?
(Mr Berryman) I am not sure that is true. I think the biggest
is the central area terminals; but we do not serve Terminal 5,
that is for sure.
8072. MR ELVIN: That was the subject
of something I read out in the Commons. I will see if I can find
the passage, my Lord.
(Mr Berryman) I ought to just mention, my Lord, we expect
that the majority of the people using Crossrail to access to Heathrow
will be workers rather than passengers. I would not like to speak
for BAA but, as I understand it, their intention is that high
premium passengers will use the Heathrow Express.
8073. LORD BROOKE OF ALVERTHORPE: They are limiting
the number of workers going to Terminal 5, are they?
(Mr Berryman) That appears to be their plan so far, my Lord.
8074. LORD JAMES OF BLACKHEATH: I think
we are all a bit gob-smacked at what you have just told us and
I think we need to get our breath back on this one a moment. Can
you just take a minute to say, if you will, just what will be
involved at the inevitable moment when somebody one day decides
that Terminal 5 is the greatest thing since sliced bread and everybody
has got to have full access to it and you are told to put down
the connection?
(Mr Berryman) The first thing to say is that the railways
within Heathrow, from Airport Junction down into the airport,
are not part of a national rail network. They are private lines
which belong to BAA. Who goes where on those lines is, to a very
large extent, within their gift. The fact of the matter is that
some trains have got to serve Terminal 4 in any event, because
the only means of internal communication between the terminals
is by rail. If you get on a train in the central area to go to
Terminal 5 it is free. If you want to go to Terminal 4 it is free.
That internal rail network is part of the passage of passengers
between the facilities at the airport. Terminal 4 has to be served
by rail.
8075. It is still a lot of upheaval to have
to make that change if it is not direct?
(Mr Berryman) If you are going from the centre of town by
Crossrail to Terminal 5 you would have the same platform interchange.
8076. You are making a very eloquent argument
for the fact that it is not needed at the moment; but I am saying
that, sooner or later, everything is going to change with this
whole set-up and somebody is going to have the bright idea that
we will need to connect. What will be involved in making that
connection happen?
(Mr Berryman) There are no physical works, my Lord. It is
purely an operational matter. I understand that Terminal 5 already
has provision for more platforms to be provided underneath it
if that is needed in future. The allocation of platforms will
be a matter for decisions to be made at the time.
8077. Would BAA be entitled at that stage to
revert to the Government and say, "You've screwed this up
by not putting this connection in at the beginning. Now, pay for
it now", and we will have another huge bill on the Government
in five years' time?
(Mr Berryman) No, my Lord, there are no additional physical
provisions required. All that will be required will be to put
the track into two platforms which I understand have already been
constructed.
8078. There is scope to put more platforms in,
you are saying?
(Mr Berryman) At T5, yes, my Lord.
8079. But that would be a cost?
(Mr Berryman) That would be a cost, but I have to say that
this has been the subject of a very, very long and protracted
negotiation with BAA which has lasted more than five years. Some
of my colleagues have spent virtually the whole time on that.
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